UK General Election 2017 Thread

[Muscular-mouse]

First topic message reminder :

Ok guys what are your predictions, how will you be voting and who do you want to win.

[TopHat24/7]

I don't know everything. Always cognisant of that. The ACTUAL problem is people like you actively rebelling against anyone who might have a more clued up opinion than you on something.

The cancer of anti-intellectualism which has bred the fake news phenomenon society now suffers from

That's just a convoluted way of saying 'I think I know best, you voted differently so don't have a clue'.

Brand it however you want.

[timex please]

I've always liked the concept that you elect an MP that represents you in parliament. Doesn't work out that well in practice I think, but not sure PR fits into that

In principle, I agree it sounds the best system - an MP that represents local interests.  It's just it disenfranchises a lot of people if you live in a solid Labour or Tory seat.   I'm sure we would get a better cross representation of the country's views with PR - perhaps it would mean that it was difficult for the majority party to push certain things through.  There are lots of examples where that might not have been a bad thing

I can see positives for both, my fear with PR is a situation like the end of Obamas reign where party trumps country and we have deadlock

I know very little about the US system - except that - is it - the House of Representatives/Senate whatever can be Republican while the President is Democrat. There are obviously independents, but Americans generally identify as either Republican or Democrat - at least the ones I deal with do (strange how they always tell you their political affiliation). Is it the same here - do we all identify as either Labour or Tory or SNP north of the border?

I take your point though about Obama, and of course having PR could lead to deadlock too - at least it might be with a broader consensus though, not two party politics being obstructive for tactical reasons?

[Hammersmith harrier]

The financial crisis of 2008 shows us that nobody ever knows what's going to happen and is a reason why people are sceptical of what selected experts say.

[navyblueshorts]

Hi Dyrewolf,

I think it is more than being anti business, I think Jezza  just wants his revolution.  I fear he might have b*gger all idea what to do with it.

My husband disagrees with me about proportional representation saying that in Italy etc, sometimes nothing gets done.  Personally I think we would have more balanced debate and on issues like NHS and education, Parliament might make long term decisions to safeguard/improve instead of them being bandied about like political footballs.   It might stop the incessant tweaking with education - I am so glad my children are through school and university now!  

I also think it would be great to have more of a Green presence in Parliament.  Caroline Lucas apart, it may be one issue driven, but it is a pretty important one for all our futures.

You'd also have anything from Black Shirts to Red Commies getting in the way of any decision making.

The Greens are just a re-branded general left-liberal party. They were the (not very) 'far left' option before Corbyn bunny-hopped them with his Labour.

Everyone quotes Hitler's National Socialists as a reason to shun PR, but the status quo is a busted flush I'm afraid and Dyre was right - despite the result on the Brexit referendum not being what I personally wanted, it at least felt like your vote meant something. Now, for most, it means absolutely F-all. You have whole Wards, where a long-standing incumbent simply gets returned ad nauseam and the other parties can't even be bothered to campaign. Millions think it's rubbish, and they're right.

[navyblueshorts]

The financial crisis of 2008 shows us that nobody ever knows what's going to happen and is a reason why people are sceptical of what selected experts say.

That's just a bollox excuse to ignore experts. You know, they aren't always right. They would never claim to be - they aren't perfect. They do, however, know a whole lot more than thee or me in their respective areas. But hey, go ahead and ignore them - believe made up nonsense - why not? We're in the age of 'Fake News', 'Alternative Truth' and other scheiss. It's cool to be a muppet.

[navyblueshorts]

I've always liked the concept that you elect an MP that represents you in parliament. Doesn't work out that well in practice I think, but not sure PR fits into that

In principle, I agree it sounds the best system - an MP that represents local interests.  It's just it disenfranchises a lot of people if you live in a solid Labour or Tory seat.   I'm sure we would get a better cross representation of the country's views with PR - perhaps it would mean that it was difficult for the majority party to push certain things through.  There are lots of examples where that might not have been a bad thing

I can see positives for both, my fear with PR is a situation like the end of Obamas reign where party trumps country and we have deadlock

I know very little about the US system - except that - is it - the House of Representatives/Senate whatever can be Republican while the President is Democrat.  There are obviously independents, but Americans generally identify as either Republican or Democrat - at least the ones I deal with do (strange how they always tell you their political affiliation).  Is it the same here - do we all identify as either Labour or Tory or SNP north of the border?  

I take your point though about Obama, and of course having PR could lead to deadlock too - at least it might be with a broader consensus though, not two party politics being obstructive for tactical reasons?  

At least some form of PR would make people talk to one another, compromise and think about whether what they'd do under the current setup is perhaps not the best for the majority. Isn't going to happen though.

[GSC]

You'd think but again, doesn't work out that well in practice.

Corbyn can't compromise with his own MPs and refuses to work with other parties now.

[TopHat24/7]

Hi Dyrewolf,

I think it is more than being anti business, I think Jezza  just wants his revolution.  I fear he might have b*gger all idea what to do with it.

My husband disagrees with me about proportional representation saying that in Italy etc, sometimes nothing gets done.  Personally I think we would have more balanced debate and on issues like NHS and education, Parliament might make long term decisions to safeguard/improve instead of them being bandied about like political footballs.   It might stop the incessant tweaking with education - I am so glad my children are through school and university now!  

I also think it would be great to have more of a Green presence in Parliament.  Caroline Lucas apart, it may be one issue driven, but it is a pretty important one for all our futures.

You'd also have anything from Black Shirts to Red Commies getting in the way of any decision making.

The Greens are just a re-branded general left-liberal party. They were the (not very) 'far left' option before Corbyn bunny-hopped them with his Labour.

Everyone quotes Hitler's National Socialists as a reason to shun PR, but the status quo is a busted flush I'm afraid and Dyre was right - despite the result on the Brexit referendum not being what I personally wanted, it at least felt like your vote meant something. Now, for most, it means absolutely F-all. You have whole Wards, where a long-standing incumbent simply gets returned ad nauseam and the other parties can't even be bothered to campaign. Millions think it's rubbish, and they're right.

I think the Brexit vote evidence the worst of PR and was a peversion of democracy. Why? Because, whilst I see you point about there not being much volatility in sitting MPs, to me the point of Parliament is for a bunch of people elected by 'the people' given a mandate (like devolved people power) to run the country in the best interests of the country. Ad hoc delegation of that devolved power back to the people encourages populism and ignorance. MPs were no longer doing the job they were mandated to do - govern and direct the country in its best interests overall.

Now we've been left veering away from the best interests of the majority to satisfy the basal interests of an effective minority.

[Hammersmith harrier]

Now we've been left veering away from the best interests of the majority to satisfy the basal interests of an effective minority.

51.9% is a strange minority.

[No 7&1/2]

Population vs those who voted.

[Hammersmith harrier]

Population vs those who voted.

You don't vote, you don't have a say.

[No 7&1/2]

That's true to an extent but it doesn't negate the point that the majority didn't vote to leave the EU.

[Hammersmith harrier]

That's true to an extent but it doesn't negate the point that the majority didn't vote to leave the EU.

The majority of those that voted voted to leave the EU, they are the only ones that matter. The 29% who didn't vote are irrelevant to the debate.

[No 7&1/2]

That's fine if you believe that but wasn't the original point.

[Hammersmith harrier]

As far as voting goes it is the only point that matters

[No 7&1/2]

I'm sure you're right that may will only care about the 51% give or take those who changed their minds since.

[TRUSSMAN66]

I'm sure you're right that may will only care about the 51% give or take those who changed their minds since.

Really she has more remainers than Brexiteers in her Westminster party.

[No 7&1/2]

And she herself was for remain. Don't think she'll be actually that bothered about the views of the 51% really as they don't want one overall thing if we view actually leaving as a myriad of options. Why the vote was stupid in the 1st place it wasn't a choice between a and b.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I'm sitting in SATs week at the moment, with children being punished for not bending their commas and doing 36 mental arithmetic questions in 30 minutes - the system is dead.

You have my sympathies DZ.  Every few years our children are told the system is dumbed down, their results therefore are meaningless historically, blah blah.  It is just soul destroying.

I wish education was taken out of the political system entirely or that we could have a cross party committee so that decisions were not taken with the next five years in mind.

That's the dream, for me. I'm assured that no Education Secretary/Minister etc has ever been popular, but Gove did a lot of damage. With our budgets being cut right now, testing becoming harsher both in judgement, academic expectancy and sheer amount of tests, increased teacher responsibility for health and social matters and a profession that loses 40-50% of new teachers within five years of qualifying (not to mention that I have not met one teacher who isn't disillusioned with their work right now) you can see why I feel education is a hugely under-represented issue in this election.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I've added an option in the poll for those who would vote purely to oppose the Conservatives. I have chosen them in particular as they are obviously most likely to win and some will lean towards a vote that is against them, rather than for anyone in particular.

[GSC]

I demand a Christian Peoples Alliance option.

[TRUSSMAN66]

Seems Corbyn hasn't turned up to the launch of the Labour campaign.....

Someone has leaked a manifesto I'm going to be paying 90 percent tax to fund...so he is occupied elsewhere.

Get your crap together... start acting professional and keep this majority down for the next leader.

This should be amusing but it isn't.

[GSC]

I don't see why the manifesto being leaked would be such a major issue for him. Not like he's going to hide from it for the next month turn up and own it.

[guildfordbat]

I don't see why the manifesto being leaked would be such a major issue for him. Not like he's going to hide from it for the next month turn up and own it.

Hi GSC - I take your point and Truss's that Corbyn needs to show ownership and belief in the manifesto. However, following recent alarms about national security and safety, it's damaging to his credibility that he can't keep a manifesto under wraps for a few days. That comparison may be a tad unfair but I think that's how it'll be seen by many and certainly portrayed by his opponents.

The unveiling of the manifesto should have been an opportunity for him to gain some ground. Instead, it is another own goal.

[TRUSSMAN66]

It's a draft version...Apologies

The most tedious election since Reagan v Mondale

[guildfordbat]

It's a draft version...Apologies

The most tedious election since Reagan v Mondale

Hi Truss - even though a draft, it'll be tricky for Labour to make any substantive changes now. If they do, they'll face accusations of running scared from the initial feedback and/or not knowing what they were doing in the first place.

It's a mess! Is our old mate Wheels still around? He must have his work cut out.

[TRUSSMAN66]

Wheels has probably hung himself..Especially after seeing Burnham skin the Tory in Manchester...

Wheelie voted for Burnham.

[Pr4wn]

I wonder how this got leaked but the Tory manifesto is still safe.

It's just a ploy by the Tories to make Labour look even more unprofessional - difficult, I know.

[GSC]

I heard it was Blair.

[Ent]

Different ways to think about the leak;

It was someone against Corbyn's ideas - wants to get it out there before the official launch and force change.

or

It was pro Corbyn's ideas - get them out there before the meeting with the national executive who will in all likely want them dialled back.

Some nice ideas in it, renewable energy, abolishing tuition fees, keeping retirement at 66.

However the entire thing is fanciful, renationalising huge amounts of industries, longer higher paid maternity pay etc etc Would love to see the costing of it.

[GSC]

The top 1% are going to be taxed at a 99% rate.

Or something.

[Hammersmith harrier]

I'm very against reducing tuition fees let alone abolishing them, by many it's seen as an easy three years of drinking and socialising, the actual course they're on is secondary. If you don't end up in a position to pay off your student fees what was the need to go in the first place, everyone should be afforded the chance to go if they're able but it's nobodies right to go.

[Pr4wn]

Yeah, education is terrible and it should be for the rich only. If you can't afford to go, you should have to mortgage the first 10 years of your career in loans. Germany (who happen to be miles ahead of the UK in terms of innovation and R&D) are doing it all wrong.

[GSC]

Eh, I see both sides of it (and both are equally guilty of hyperbole).

Higher education shouldnt be reserved for just those who can afford it, but tuition fees being paid for via loan or grant are an investment not a gift.

Shortage of jobs to justify the fees when you come out are a far bigger issue imo.

[Hammersmith harrier]

Yeah, education is terrible and it should be for the rich only. If you can't afford to go, you should have to mortgage the first 10 years of your career in loans. Germany (who happen to be miles ahead of the UK in terms of innovation and R&D) are doing it all wrong.

It's not for the rich at all is it, further education should be about furthering yourself and if you don't do that there is no point in going, it's become a fad.

[navyblueshorts]

I'm sitting in SATs week at the moment, with children being punished for not bending their commas and doing 36 mental arithmetic questions in 30 minutes - the system is dead.

You have my sympathies DZ.  Every few years our children are told the system is dumbed down, their results therefore are meaningless historically, blah blah.  It is just soul destroying.

I wish education was taken out of the political system entirely or that we could have a cross party committee so that decisions were not taken with the next five years in mind.

That's the dream, for me. I'm assured that no Education Secretary/Minister etc has ever been popular, but Gove did a lot of damage. With our budgets being cut right now, testing becoming harsher both in judgement, academic expectancy and sheer amount of tests, increased teacher responsibility for health and social matters and a profession that loses 40-50% of new teachers within five years of qualifying (not to mention that I have not met one teacher who isn't disillusioned with their work right now) you can see why I feel education is a hugely under-represented issue in this election.

I'm not sure I see a problem with higher/more rigorous academic expectations - you should see the dross coming out the top end, but who are supposed to be bright (as judging by qualifications). Sheer amount of tests is definitely dumb though as is the idea that it's teachers who should have a large responsibility for health/social.

[navyblueshorts]

The top 1% are going to be taxed at a 99% rate.

Or something.

Because that worked so well in the 70s didn't it? Surely they aren't seriously proposing something that dumb?

[navyblueshorts]

I'm very against reducing tuition fees let alone abolishing them, by many it's seen as an easy three years of drinking and socialising, the actual course they're on is secondary. If you don't end up in a position to pay off your student fees what was the need to go in the first place, everyone should be afforded the chance to go if they're able but it's nobodies right to go.

So sayeth the expert....

[navyblueshorts]

Yeah, education is terrible and it should be for the rich only. If you can't afford to go, you should have to mortgage the first 10 years of your career in loans. Germany (who happen to be miles ahead of the UK in terms of innovation and R&D) are doing it all wrong.

It's not for the rich at all is it, further education should be about furthering yourself and if you don't do that there is no point in going, it's become a fad.

This has some element of truth to it....for a small number. Certainly, I've spoken to students who when asked why they're at University, say "Well, all my classmates were going...". That said, most of them see a Degree as essential and so work pretty hard. You can work hard and party hard if you want, still do well and get a 'worthwhile' Degree.

[Hammersmith harrier]

Yeah, education is terrible and it should be for the rich only. If you can't afford to go, you should have to mortgage the first 10 years of your career in loans. Germany (who happen to be miles ahead of the UK in terms of innovation and R&D) are doing it all wrong.

It's not for the rich at all is it, further education should be about furthering yourself and if you don't do that there is no point in going, it's become a fad.

This has some element of truth to it....for a small number. Certainly, I've spoken to students who when asked why they're at University, say "Well, all my classmates were going...". That said, most of them see a Degree as essential and so work pretty hard. You can work hard and party hard if you want, still do well and get a 'worthwhile' Degree.

That's the balancing act isn't it, giving support to those who need it and deserve it but not giving those who aren't too fussed an easy ride.

Having gone to a grammar school there was an expectation that it would lead on to university, there was roughly 90% of students who did go, from my group of 12, three of them have done something with there degree. I went to have a good time and was fortunate enough to not need a student loan, I knuckled down when I needed to but from my experience there was an almost even split of hard workers and those who went just for a good time.

[Pr4wn]

The top 1% are going to be taxed at a 99% rate.

Or something.

Because that worked so well in the 70s didn't it? Surely they aren't seriously proposing something that dumb?

No, they're not. I think he was joking. Without checking, I think they're proposing an extra 5p on the top earners but also higher taxes for those earning over 80k?

Bad news for Toppy, who is LOADED.

[GSC]

Toppy topping himself

[Crimey]

I honestly think that tuition fees should be re-branded as a Graduate Tax. That is essentially what they are now, you don't pay them until you earn over a certain amount and the amount you pay off increases with how much you earn. 

This would also mean that people would be less put off by the "debt" it creates because rather than getting a loan for paying the tuition fees, you pay a tax afterwards which reflects your higher earning potential and the further education you received. It also means, from a government perspective you could keep taxing people for longer. Currently the loan repayments only last 30 years, whereas restructuring it as a tax, you could feasibly keep it running until death, meaning in the long-run making more money but I think people would be more open to accepting that as the deal. 

It also stops those from rich backgrounds being more comfortable going to University because their parents pay their fees in full beforehand, this way the system is more equal. No matter your background, YOU pay for your education the same way.

[TRUSSMAN66]

Toppy topping himself

Corbyn has just gone up 5 points in the polls....

Seriously though if you are going to lose.... Go down losing with what you believe in.....just be more professional about it.

Problem with Ed was no one knew what the hell he was going to do or what his policies were....

I'll be voting Green but fairplay Corbyn is a conviction politician.

[GSC]

Problem is I don't think Jeremy really cares if he loses or not. McDonnell and co ultimate ambition to take control of Labour.

[navyblueshorts]

I honestly think that tuition fees should be re-branded as a Graduate Tax. That is essentially what they are now, you don't pay them until you earn over a certain amount and the amount you pay off increases with how much you earn. 

This would also mean that people would be less put off by the "debt" it creates because rather than getting a loan for paying the tuition fees, you pay a tax afterwards which reflects your higher earning potential and the further education you received. It also means, from a government perspective you could keep taxing people for longer. Currently the loan repayments only last 30 years, whereas restructuring it as a tax, you could feasibly keep it running until death, meaning in the long-run making more money but I think people would be more open to accepting that as the deal. 

It also stops those from rich backgrounds being more comfortable going to University because their parents pay their fees in full beforehand, this way the system is more equal. No matter your background, YOU pay for your education the same way.

Situation is pretty laughable now. Last I heard, the current system costs the taxpayer more than when the fees were a max. £3,000 due to projections about eventual non-recovery etc.
I'd rather see us back with some form of means-tested grants system, ranging from F.A. to the full £9,250. Would take a lot of public sector people to manage and I'm not sure how you get the winkers whose parent 'hide' their actual worth. Bit like the general tax system I guess and no-one's worked out how make that properly equitable yet...

[Pr4wn]

They have that system in Jersey and, predictably, it's taken advantage of. I know multiple families, particularly the self-employed, that fudge their own income numbers to ensure their kids get a grant.

It's also very difficult to manage for kids with divorced parents.

[navyblueshorts]

They have that system in Jersey and, predictably, it's taken advantage of. I know multiple families, particularly the self-employed, that fudge their own income numbers to ensure their kids get a grant.

It's also very difficult to manage for kids with divorced parents.

Yeah, I can imagine. There'll always be those winkers, unfortunately. Would the benefits of such a system outweigh the shysters misusing it though? Perhaps not now, given the rise in the so-called self-employed. May needs to return to that Budget faux pas re. the tax situation for the "self-employed"...

[TRUSSMAN66]

Tony Blair hardly helped Gordon......Was in regular contact with Cameron while he was up against Miliband and now he's telling voters it is okay to vote for another party....

Really ???........I imagine he has people that campaigned for him who have been out in all weathers banging on doors and delivering literature since......and this is how you reimburse them ??..........

Like an old actor that doesn't want to leave center stage........Find him a role somebody..

[CaledonianCraig]

It really does seem crystal clear that the BBC have a strong pro-Tory bias. Giving showtime to May on The One Show and not calling the Tories into question over plenty of stuff and going overboard on every miniscule thing Labour does that is even slightly in error.

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