British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

First topic message reminder :

Scottrf wrote:Lawes was better than AWJ every week in the 6 Nations and isn't injured yet he's the strange call

AWJ is a leader and well respected by his peers as well as being a former winning Lions test captain.

Lions players aren't just based on how well they did in the six nations, they are picked on how well the coaches think they will gel into the squad.

You need leaders on and off the pitch.

I don't class that as a senior game.

Taylorman wrote:Yeah I just think some people shouldn't play this 606V2 game. It's just too hard for some. can't take it, don't play it. Simple. Understand it went unpenalised, understand he was hurt, and understand it was unintentional.

A few things conspired at the same time to result in a near worst case scenario, none if it intentional. Unfortunately it happens.

Fixed

You try and have a good day today Gwlad. Dont worry things will get better for you. :-)

Taylorman wrote:You try and have a good day today Gwlad. Dont worry things will get better for you. :-)

robbo277 wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Senior level:
Leigh Halfpenny
Jonny Sexton
Robbie Hendshaw
Jared Payne
CJ Stander
Conor Murray
Tadgh furlong
Jack McGrath
Owen Farrell
M Vunipola
Dan Cole
Youngs
Lawes
Joseph

Under 20s
Anthony Watson

Anyone else?

Ross Moriarty and Jack Nowell played in the same England U20 win vs NZ as Anthony Watson.

Thanks Robbo. Couldnt get the full line up for that game. Glad Nowell is in the squad, really exciting player to watch. Probably one of my favourite Lions.

TightHEAD wrote:Maybe the posters who can't handle a serious discussion are the problem and not the serious subject raised in a forum about rugby?

What's the serious subject about?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Even if your 'opinion' is wrong.

Yawn...this ship has sailed. Same topic, different actors. Time for others to take it up next time. personally on this occasion I think there's been an attempt at a somewhat mature approach both ways in portions of it, with an understandable number of over the top comments.

But those looking for a complete resolution will always be disappointed. And that's fine too.

Receiving an invite to NZ was my favourite part. Never got to find out what aucklandlaurie was planning to teach me, though.

Anyway, I think this thread has been rather humorous.

I would take it up Rory. You could be missing out on the best rugby experience of your life. Laurie is a genuine, passionate rugby man who I have had the pleasure of connecting with via these pages and other sites for about a decade now. I doubt you, or anyone thinking of coming to NZ for this trip, would be worse off for Lauries company.

The mere fact that he was in the stands in the plane ridden match of 1981 and that he's an Otahuhu stalwart says he will look after you like no other.

Dump tackle probably

Faletau's latest performance proves his class and he offers just a bit more than billy so expect if he continues that we'll see him at 8 though i would very much like to see him at 6 and a back row of Warburton , Faletau and Billy

Nah, Faletau is good but Gloucester were poor. 2 of the tries were stroll ins that he got on the end of! Nothing spectacular. I'd prefer to see a back row of Stander/POM, Warburton and Billy V.

Back to back MOM and 3 tries, but of course Glaws were poor, TF made them look bad.

Just watched them, they may have been run ins but he still had to finish and did so superbly. Lions Test 8 IMO.

Gwlad wrote:Faletau's latest performance proves his class and he offers just a bit more than billy so expect if he continues that we'll see him at 8 though i would very much like to see him at 6 and a back row of Warburton , Faletau and Billy

Bit more than what? They are different players and who gets chosen depends on what the managers and coaches want.

How on earth can you define who is better when each guy so clearly can do things the other cannot.

lostinwales wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Faletau's latest performance proves his class and he offers just a bit more than billy so expect if he continues that we'll see him at 8 though i would very much like to see him at 6 and a back row of Warburton , Faletau and Billy

Bit more than what? They are different players and who gets chosen depends on what the managers and coaches want.

How on earth can you define who is better when each guy so clearly can do things the other cannot.

I am genuinley shocked, is that how they pick a player

Its amazing though, what i do is i sit down and assess TF and his back to back MOM and 3 tries and then BV and i come to the conclusion TF has a bit more to offer than BV. You ought to try it. Its called forming a subjective opinion and we all, especially you, have them.

Go on, give it a try.

I could try and spell it out but I would guess that 95% of the people on this forum get it already and the remainder won't ever.

Gwlad wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Faletau's latest performance proves his class and he offers just a bit more than billy so expect if he continues that we'll see him at 8 though i would very much like to see him at 6 and a back row of Warburton , Faletau and Billy

Bit more than what? They are different players and who gets chosen depends on what the managers and coaches want.

How on earth can you define who is better when each guy so clearly can do things the other cannot.

I am genuinley shocked, is that how they pick a player

Its amazing though, what i do is i sit down and assess TF and his back to back MOM and 3 tries and then BV and i come to the conclusion TF has a bit more to offer than BV. You ought to try it. Its called forming a subjective opinion and we all, especially you, have them.

Go on, give it a try.

That being he's Welsh?

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Faletau's latest performance proves his class and he offers just a bit more than billy so expect if he continues that we'll see him at 8 though i would very much like to see him at 6 and a back row of Warburton , Faletau and Billy

Bit more than what? They are different players and who gets chosen depends on what the managers and coaches want.

How on earth can you define who is better when each guy so clearly can do things the other cannot.

I am genuinley shocked, is that how they pick a player

Its amazing though, what i do is i sit down and assess TF and his back to back MOM and 3 tries and then BV and i come to the conclusion TF has a bit more to offer than BV. You ought to try it. Its called forming a subjective opinion and we all, especially you, have them.

Go on, give it a try.

That being he's Welsh?

Both overseas born and Pontypool bred; basically both Welsh.

Big Billy may be Welsh but he's just a bosher, runs straight and we know how much non Welsh fans don't like a straight ball carrier right! TF has feet, is quicker and has great hands and is more mobile.

I had a pint of Brains once - does that make me more Welsh than Billy V?
Warburton, North etc. etc. are more English than Billy is Welsh.

Gats may well play Billy at 12 & (not) surprise us.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I had a pint of Brains once - does that make me more Welsh than Billy V?
Warburton, North etc. etc. are more English than Billy is Welsh.

Gats may well play Billy at 12 & (not) surprise us.

Warburton and North are proper valley commandos mind.

Billy at 12 now there's a thought!

Yes it must be tough to decide which Pacific Islander to pick here. Theyre both very good. Some even think thats naughty to have to rely on the under resourced Islands especially when they do little for them in return. hmmm, who to pick though?

Taylorman wrote:Yes it must be tough to decide which Pacific Islander to pick here. Theyre both very good. Some even think thats naughty to have to rely on the under resourced Islands especially when they do little for them in return. hmmm, who to pick though?

Ah a Kiwi, being expert in this particular conundrum perhaps you can advise

Gwlad wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Yes it must be tough to decide which Pacific Islander to pick here. Theyre both very good. Some even think thats naughty to have to rely on the under resourced Islands especially when they do little for them in return. hmmm, who to pick though?

Ah a Kiwi, being expert in this particular conundrum perhaps you can advise

Yes, tell them to go home, its too cold all that way from home.

It all depends on the makeup of the pack. Billy is arguably the best carrying 8 around at the minute so that goes in his favour. If we can get enough carrying options elsewhere, Faletau is a viable option as he's very good.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I had a pint of Brains once - does that make me more Welsh than Billy V?
Warburton, North etc. etc. are more English than Billy is Welsh.

Gats may well play Billy at 12 & (not) surprise us.

That doesn't even make any sense. Worst WUM ever! Get that man a prize.

I think Billy V will take the Test jersey for the 1st Test. As good as Faletau undoubtedly is, Billy has that indomitable power game that Gatland will want to take to the ABs. I think Gatland will throw both Stander and Vunipola at the ABs.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I think Billy V will take the Test jersey for the 1st Test. As good as Faletau undoubtedly is, Billy has that indomitable power game that Gatland will want to take to the ABs. I think Gatland will throw both Stander and Vunipola at the ABs.

Kaino and Read both looking doubtful for the first test and if they do make it, will not be match sharp. 

Luatua and Savea are tyros but inexperienced at test level. Could be an area for the Lions to exploit.

6 weeks out because he hurt his thumb. Don't make them tough in NZ.

Scottrf wrote:6 weeks out because he hurt his thumb. Don't make them tough in NZ.

It's a bit like Naholo's broken leg. Tell people it's going to take twice as long to heal than you expect, then unleash the player "early"

Scottrf wrote:6 weeks out because he hurt his thumb. Don't make them tough in NZ.

Tell me about it. They apparently lost a World Cup final because of a few sore tummies. The Lions should whitewash this lot.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Scottrf wrote:6 weeks out because he hurt his thumb. Don't make them tough in NZ.

Tell me about it. They apparently lost a World Cup final because of a few sore tummies. The Lions should whitewash this lot.

Yes but McCaw put a stop to that, winning one with a broken foot from the quarters onwards.

And lets hope this lot are tougher than 05, one of the supposed best players only lasting a few minutes. Tut tut.

George Carlin wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I think Billy V will take the Test jersey for the 1st Test. As good as Faletau undoubtedly is, Billy has that indomitable power game that Gatland will want to take to the ABs. I think Gatland will throw both Stander and Vunipola at the ABs.

Kaino and Read both looking doubtful for the first test and if they do make it, will not be match sharp. 

Luatua and Savea are tyros but inexperienced at test level. Could be an area for the Lions to exploit.

Coles is a doubt too apparently.

I think Billy has to start.

Stander definitely in the 23 but not sure as an impact player or as a starter.

Faletau wouldn't even make the 23 for me.


Gwlad Faletau playing well vs a poor Gloucester doesn't make him world class. Billy's performance vs Munster carries much more weight.

It's the same as with Warburton. I doubt he's got anything like a serious injury. Rather, he's being kept away from playing to avoid injury, aka wrapping in cotton wool.

Taylorman wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Scottrf wrote:6 weeks out because he hurt his thumb. Don't make them tough in NZ.

Tell me about it. They apparently lost a World Cup final because of a few sore tummies. The Lions should whitewash this lot.

Yes but McCaw put a stop to that, winning one with a broken foot from the quarters onwards.

And lets hope this lot are tougher than 05, one of the supposed best players only lasting a few minutes. Tut tut.

McCaw's solution was simple though. He just got Kaino and Read to put in double shifts so he could mince about bleating to the ref. Still, even on one leg McCaw is better than Sam Cane. Has there ever been a more overrated player who isn't Welsh?

beshocked wrote:I think Billy has to start.

Stander definitely in the 23 but not sure as an impact player or as a starter.

Faletau wouldn't even make the 23 for me.


Gwlad Faletau playing well vs a poor Gloucester doesn't make him world class. Billy's performance vs Munster carries much more weight.

I'm struggling with this one as well. Part of me thinks we just go for it and put the two bulldozers on at the same time - having a lock like Itoje who is so proficient at the breakdown is helpful in that regard. Alternatively I can just as easily make a case for picking Warburton at 6 to start off with and having SOB at 7, which gives you better breakdown skills in the back row (plus SOB is no slouch in the ball carrying department). Much will depend on the form shown during the tour I suspect.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Scottrf wrote:6 weeks out because he hurt his thumb. Don't make them tough in NZ.

Tell me about it. They apparently lost a World Cup final because of a few sore tummies. The Lions should whitewash this lot.

Yes but McCaw put a stop to that, winning one with a broken foot from the quarters onwards.

And lets hope this lot are tougher than 05, one of the supposed best players only lasting a few minutes. Tut tut.

McCaw's solution was simple though. He just got Kaino and Read to put in double shifts so he could mince about bleating to the ref. Still, even on one leg McCaw is better than Sam Cane. Has there ever been a more overrated player who isn't Welsh?

Hamish Watson

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Scottrf wrote:6 weeks out because he hurt his thumb. Don't make them tough in NZ.

Tell me about it. They apparently lost a World Cup final because of a few sore tummies. The Lions should whitewash this lot.

Yes but McCaw put a stop to that, winning one with a broken foot from the quarters onwards.

And lets hope this lot are tougher than 05, one of the supposed best players only lasting a few minutes. Tut tut.

McCaw's solution was simple though. He just got Kaino and Read to put in double shifts so he could mince about bleating to the ref. Still, even on one leg McCaw is better than Sam Cane. Has there ever been a more overrated player who isn't Welsh?

Hamish Watson

Nice try. I think it's clear that no-one rates Hamish Watson. Pretty sure Gatland would pick Magnus Lund ahead of him.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

beshocked wrote:I think Billy has to start.

Stander definitely in the 23 but not sure as an impact player or as a starter.

Faletau wouldn't even make the 23 for me.


Gwlad Faletau playing well vs a poor Gloucester doesn't make him world class. Billy's performance vs Munster carries much more weight.

I'm struggling with this one as well. Part of me thinks we just go for it and put the two bulldozers on at the same time - having a lock like Itoje who is so proficient at the breakdown is helpful in that regard. Alternatively I can just as easily make a case for picking Warburton at 6 to start off with and having SOB at 7, which gives you better breakdown skills in the back row (plus SOB is no slouch in the ball carrying department). Much will depend on the form shown during the tour I suspect.

Is Sean O Brien showing good enough form though?

I wouldn't look to rely too much on Itoje in the breakdown, should let him do his stuff as extra but get the core backrow stuff sorted by the backrow.

England's performances this season showed that for now, Itoje should be left in the 2nd row. He generally does his core 2nd row duties pretty well.

Have to see it as a 80 minute game, NZ do that all the time. They pounce at the right moment.

[quote="beshocked"]I think Billy has to start.

Stander definitely in the 23 but not sure as an impact player or as a starter.

Faletau wouldn't even make the 23 for me.


Gwlad Faletau playing well vs a poor Gloucester doesn't make him world class. Billy's performance vs Munster carries much more weight.[/quote]

Be fair BS, Billy does carry much more weight

funnyExiledScot wrote:Nice try. I think it's clear that no-one rates Hamish Watson. Pretty sure Gatland would pick Magnus Lund ahead of him.

Some rampaging vikings could be what we actually need. As the ginger quota has not been reached, perhaps Erik should be in as well.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Scottrf wrote:6 weeks out because he hurt his thumb. Don't make them tough in NZ.

Tell me about it. They apparently lost a World Cup final because of a few sore tummies. The Lions should whitewash this lot.

Yes but McCaw put a stop to that, winning one with a broken foot from the quarters onwards.

And lets hope this lot are tougher than 05, one of the supposed best players only lasting a few minutes. Tut tut.

McCaw's solution was simple though. He just got Kaino and Read to put in double shifts so he could mince about bleating to the ref. Still, even on one leg McCaw is better than Sam Cane. Has there ever been a more overrated player who isn't Welsh?

Whereas I think Cane is underated, the work he does in the thick of the heat goes mostly unnoticed.
Be surprised if the more dynamic Ardie Savea puts him out for that reason.

beshocked wrote:I think Billy has to start.

Stander definitely in the 23 but not sure as an impact player or as a starter.

Faletau wouldn't even make the 23 for me.


Gwlad Faletau playing well vs a poor Gloucester doesn't make him world class. Billy's performance vs Munster carries much more weight.

I agree, he was already world class.

But taking 3 tries against a Premiership side isn't something many 8s do.

And i also agree that yes Billy does carry more weight and that is why Faletau is more mobile

Gwlad wrote:

beshocked wrote:I think Billy has to start.

Stander definitely in the 23 but not sure as an impact player or as a starter.

Faletau wouldn't even make the 23 for me.


Gwlad Faletau playing well vs a poor Gloucester doesn't make him world class. Billy's performance vs Munster carries much more weight.

I agree, he was already world class.

But taking 3 tries against a Premiership side isn't something many 8s do.

And i also agree that yes Billy does carry more weight and that is why Faletau is more mobile

Looks like Zinny is in the Billy V camp
http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/19292089/former-all-black-zinzan-brooke-insists-british-irish-lions-backrow-taulupe-faletau-lacks-mongrel-edge

Uh, mongrel edge. Maybe in his day but today you want a surgeon, not someone who works in an abattoir.

Ozzy Osbourne used to work in an abattoir and look at him now. He's just taken over as editor of the London Evening Standard.

Zinny is in the Zinny camp, he identifies with BV because thats the sort of player he was, wouldn't understand TF's finesse.

Gwlad wrote:Zinny is in the Zinny camp, he identifies with BV because thats the sort of player he was, wouldn't understand TF's finesse.

Zinny was very capable of finesse - that was why Buck Shelford got dropped for him. And the odd drop goal on occasion. His brother was the brute in that family.

In any case, if the best #8 to play the game has an opinion it's probably worth a listen

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Zinny is in the Zinny camp, he identifies with BV because thats the sort of player he was, wouldn't understand TF's finesse.

Zinny was very capable of finesse - that was why Buck Shelford got dropped for him. And the odd drop goal on occasion. His brother was the brute in that family.

In any case, if the best #8 to play the game has an opinion it's probably worth a listen

Even Parisse has done that. He wasn't the best 8 to play the game. That was Merv or Buck

I'm not sure Faletau or Vunipola has to be a question of which one. I'm normally against shoehorning players into sides but I think we could play with Faletau at 6 and Vunipola at 8. The Second-rows are all mobile units around the pitch and as the mobility of the front five increases I feel the need for an out and out Lydiate style Blindside disappears. I do think that Gray and Watson would have helped in this department, Gray's tackle statistics are in the area of a back-row and Watson is an out and out 7 in a way none of the other options are, that said with Warburton as captain an out and out 7 was never likely to start and does not represent a brilliant bench option as they tend only to cover their own position.

Nonetheless, for me Faletau and Vunipola could easily and effectively play in conjunction, they both have good hands and feet as well as power, and with two big ball carriers in the pack it means the Lions could play with a playmaker at 12 rather than a battering ram.

McGrath, George, Furlong, Kruis, Itoje, Faletau, Billy, Warburton

I feel aroused.