British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

First topic message reminder :

robbo277 wrote:
But as I said, I don't want players to water down their comments. I want to read what the players think, I don't want to read what the press officer tells them to say.

That's fair enough, and I agree with the rest of your comment on this basis. I personally don't particularly care what Mike Brown thinks, especially when it's as obvious as "experienced test player is disappointed to have not been selected for the Lions". I could have told you that without Mike Brown's public statement. The point where it deviated from him merely expressing his disappointment to one where he's put his foot in his mouth is the fact he questioned the coaches' lack of communication to him personally. Even if he's right- and I think he may well be- to publicly bring that into question in the way he has done is antithetical to the whole business of a squad as a unity, a whole above the self.

As for him being a liability, I agree to an extent, but equally he does get in his fair few verbal and physical scraps. He's clearly not a player who's particularly in control of his emotions, a bit like Biggar, in that he wants to plead his case long after it is obvious his efforts are utterly in vain. He's not a catastrophe by any means, but having played with people like him, they can be liabilities. Ticking time bomb may be the incorrect phrase, and overdoing it slightly, but that doesn't negate the point entirely. Either way, it doesn't particularly matter, as I don't think it really affects his performance or mentality, and the players around him, too much: but if it did, it's hard to quantify anyway.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I really don't mind though hammer. If gwlad wants to wum fine just asking him to be consistent.

You don't need to infect the boards with a constant stream of garbage.

Unfortunately I think he has made it clear that's exactly what he needs to do.

Viliami Ofahengaue (known at the time as Willie) was a powerhouse number eight in the same mould as Vunipola (Tongan heritage too). He was in NZ but the country refused him re-entry, so he ended up representing Australia.

Mind you, the All Blacks had Zinzan Brooke and Jamie Joseph around, so they weren't short of candidates.

Ofahengaue is uncle to Samu Manoa.

He is a preacher now too isnt he. Great Jonah Lomu rugby player for the PS1.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:He is a preacher now too isnt he. Great Jonah Lomu rugby player for the PS1.

The best game ever.


Noting better than NZ V Japan and Jonah Lomu handing off the entire team, going round to do it again then eventually scoring!

Could never master the offloading in that game. Some people were unreal at it.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Could never master the offloading in that game. Some people were unreal at it.

Was the Mike Brown edition

Has Brown received his written explanation from Gatland yet as to why he wasn't picked? It would have been fun to write.

Mike says he'll pass.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Has Brown received his written explanation from Gatland yet as to why he wasn't picked? It would have been fun to write.

Thats cos Gats hasnt finished BOD's yet. His bullet point list continues...Browns way down the track

Gooseberry wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:The squad that aren't in finals are training this week down in Wales - good chance for those guys to make a good first impression.

Hopefully it doesn't lead to a split in the group given that they will have bonded over the next few weeks before the rest of the squad join.

How many does that actually leave?

With the bulk of Irish, English and Welsh players in the playoffs or France (and that also takes 1/3 of Scotland out)

By my reckoning :

Seymour
Hogg
Payne
North
Watson
Joseph
Teo
Laidlaw
Marler
Sinckler
Warburton (*is he still injured?)
Moriarty
Faletau

Hardly much of a party. I suppose they could take on a local rugby league side.

Rowntree said they had 14 training and Warburton did a slightly modified session, so your players and Henderson and Best are probably right.

Warburton could be fit for the Stade game Friday. But will
definitely be ready (from this injury) for the first Lions one.

Gooseberry wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:The squad that aren't in finals are training this week down in Wales - good chance for those guys to make a good first impression.

Hopefully it doesn't lead to a split in the group given that they will have bonded over the next few weeks before the rest of the squad join.

How many does that actually leave?

With the bulk of Irish, English and Welsh players in the playoffs or France (and that also takes 1/3 of Scotland out)

By my reckoning :

Seymour
Hogg
Payne
North
Watson
Joseph
Teo
Laidlaw
Marler
Sinckler
Warburton (*is he still injured?)
Moriarty
Faletau

Hardly much of a party. I suppose they could take on a local rugby league side.

RDW_Scotland wrote:The Ulster boys are about too (Best and Henderson)

http://www.lionsrugby.com/news/16181.php#.WRmpj2nyuCg

We've got a 15 then!

Marler, Best, Sinckler, Te'o, Henderson, Moriarty, Warburton, Faletau
Laidlaw, Hogg, North, Payne, Joseph, Seymour, Watson

Move Faletau into the second row, Moriarty to 8, and Te'o into the back row. Gives you a side that would beat Italy

Everyone but Warbuton took part in full training, but Warbuton was running about and doing most of it. He may be fit for the Stade game this weekend but will definitely be fit for the first tour game.

LondonTiger wrote:Move Faletau into the second row, Moriarty to 8, and Te'o into the back row. Gives you a side that would beat Italy

Maybe they could call up Jonny May to shore the scrum up a bit

RDW_Scotland wrote:Everyone but Warbuton took part in full training, but Warbuton was running about and doing most of it.  He may be fit for the Stade game this weekend but will definitely be fit for the first tour game.

Its funny how leading into tours and tournaments Warburtons always injured and missing games yet fit for Gatland

When's the first game? Can't wait for this tour.

Hoping all the Saracens boys get through their next two games, having Farrell, Kruis, Itoje and both Vunipolas fully fit and full of confidence from a double double will be huge!

From a purely Lions point of view it would be good if Sarries lose at the weekend against Exeter - can't see it happening unfortunately!

3rd June. Very soon

RDW_Scotland wrote:From a purely Lions point of view it would be good if Sarries lose at the weekend against Exeter - can't see it happening unfortunately!

Nah, need momentum and players that are used to winning to counterbalance the Welsh players.

RDW_Scotland wrote:From a purely Lions point of view it would be good if Sarries lose at the weekend against Exeter - can't see it happening unfortunately!

Does it really make a difference? There are 6 Sarries players. However, there are 8 Munster and Leinster players who are likely to be the pro 12 finalists.

Both finals are on the 27th May but either way the first test isnt until the 24th June.

I said it a bit tongue in cheek but it would certainly help the Sarries Lions as they could have a bit of recovery time before the tour, instead of going from 3 weeks in a row intense rugby straight onto the plane in NZ. And it's not as if these players aren't battle hardened and used to winning big games anyway - losing this SF is hardly going to dent their confidence. Most of the 6 are likely to be in the Test squad too so any players that can get a bit of recovery time before the tour would be a boost.

This has been a long, hard season for most players but certainly the Sarries players given that they all played in Aus last summer after winning both Prem and Champions Cup and they've had another long, hard season getting to the later stages of both again.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Does it really make a difference? There are 6 Sarries players. However, there are 8 Munster and Leinster players who are likely to be the pro 12 finalists.

Jeez and they call the English arrogant!

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:From a purely Lions point of view it would be good if Sarries lose at the weekend against Exeter - can't see it happening unfortunately!

Does it really make a difference? There are 6 Sarries players. However, there are 8 Munster and Leinster players who are likely to be the pro 12 finalists.

Both finals are on the 27th May but either way the first test isnt until the 24th June.

There are also another 7 Ospreys and Scarlets players

Its not just about the 1st test, players need time together to learn calls and build relationships. Guys like Murray, Sexton and Farrell have played together before so it may be easier for them but less when it comes to the likes of Biggar and Webb who they've not worked with before

Gooseberry wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Does it really make a difference? There are 6 Sarries players. However, there are 8 Munster and Leinster players who are likely to be the pro 12 finalists.

Jeez and they call the English arrogant!

Munster finished 1st in the league and Leinster finished 2nd. Both Munster and Leinster will play their semi in the Aviva in Dublin and both will be favourites to win. Where is the issue?

Leinster beat the Scarlets 45–9 at home in the league and Munster beat the Ospreys 33–0 at home. How is it arrogant to suggest it will probably be a Munster v Leinster final? Who do you think will probably be in the final?

marty2086 wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:From a purely Lions point of view it would be good if Sarries lose at the weekend against Exeter - can't see it happening unfortunately!

Does it really make a difference? There are 6 Sarries players. However, there are 8 Munster and Leinster players who are likely to be the pro 12 finalists.

Both finals are on the 27th May but either way the first test isnt until the 24th June.

There are also another 7 Ospreys and Scarlets players

Its not just about the 1st test, players need time together to learn calls and build relationships. Guys like Murray, Sexton and Farrell have played together before so it may be easier for them but less when it comes to the likes of Biggar and Webb who they've not worked with before

As long as the Welsh boys get on with Te'o, Kruis and the Irish props, Gatland will be happy as the test team will look after itself.

Gooseberry wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Does it really make a difference? There are 6 Sarries players. However, there are 8 Munster and Leinster players who are likely to be the pro 12 finalists.

Jeez and they call the English arrogant!

So its arrogant to think the top two teams in the league are most likely to make the final when they are up against Ospreys who have 1 win in 6 and Scarlets who Leinster hammered only last month

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Does it really make a difference? There are 6 Sarries players. However, there are 8 Munster and Leinster players who are likely to be the pro 12 finalists.

Jeez and they call the English arrogant!

Munster finished 1st in the league and Leinster finished 2nd. Both Munster and Leinster will play their semi in the Aviva in Dublin and both will be favourites to win. Where is the issue?

Leinster beat the Scarlets 45–9 at home in the league and Munster beat the Ospreys 33–0 at home. How is it arrogant to suggest it will probably be a Munster v Leinster final?

Welcome to what it's like being English. Any hint that you think your team might win and you are arrogant!

Only mentioned the Saracens lads as winning the European Cup and then maybe another league title on the trot will be a big boost for the squad, not sure you could argue that all 6 of them will make the test match 23 unless injury strikes.

SamTheQuin wrote:Only mentioned the Saracens lads as winning the European Cup and then maybe another league title on the trot will be a big boost for the squad, not sure you could argue that all 6 of them will make the test match 23 unless injury strikes.

I just think that a Sarries AP win wouldn't have that big an effect on the squad or indeed the moral of the Sarries players, and that a couple of week's recovery time and training with the Lions would have a massive difference given how little time the squad has together.

This is all hypothetical of course as Sarries will be hot favourites to beat Exeter!

marty2086 wrote:

Its not just about the 1st test, players need time together to learn calls and build relationships. Guys like Murray, Sexton and Farrell have played together before so it may be easier for them but less when it comes to the likes of Biggar and Webb who they've not worked with before

Which is on reason why the Lions may well go for Murray Sexton. Picking mini units (like an All English front row) cuts down some of these issues.

As noted though whoever ends up in teh various finals the Lions are going to bew shoret squaded by a significant chunk, and some of these players are likley to be eased in. More so for Sarries players if they end up playing 3 knock out games on consecutive weekends.

Why would you pick an all English front row? Surely an all Irish front row makes more sense?

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Why would you pick an all English front row? Surely an all Irish front row makes more sense?

I was a bit tongue in cheek in light of the arrogance posts above.... but Id take the English over the Irish. We could argue apples and pears over this all day though

Although actually stick George on the bench just to annoy Beshocked.

Gooseberry wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Why would you pick an all English front row? Surely an all Irish front row makes more sense?

I was a bit tongue in cheek in light of the arrogance posts above.... but Id take the English over the Irish. We could argue apples and pears over this all day though

Although actually stick George on the bench just to annoy Beshocked.

What arrogant posts?

RDW Scotland

Need to factor in that the Saracens lions haven't actually played that many AP minutes.

Farrell has 475 minutes with Lozowski doing more of the work with - 1363.

It's similar when looking at the likes of George,Vunipola Bros,Kruis.

George has shared the load with Brits and had limited game time for England.

Kruis and Billy have obviously missed out for England selection with injury so shouldn't be as fatigued.

I know it's a bit off topic but Christian Wade has played a whopping 1623 minutes in the AP this season.

Itoje perhaps has had the highest workload with over 1000 minutes in the AP and not including European games or internationals but even he had a rest by missing the Wasps game.


Even if the Saracens Lions go into the Lions tour having played 2 more games, their overall workload over the season will not be excessive.

It's the Lions tour itself which I think will do the biggest damage to players fitness for next season.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Why would you pick an all English front row? Surely an all Irish front row makes more sense?

The absence of Toner means that you can't pick an Irish line-out caller and primary jumper to partner Best. As that's arguably the set-piece more likely to fall apart than the scrum when players aren't familiar with each other I think there's an argument for starting George with Kruis.

If reports are true that Rory Best and Jamie George were the nailed on hookers in the squad with Ken Owens piping Hartley for the third spot then discussing of a hooker partnering a familiar line-out leader might be moot given that AWJ will almost certainly start if fit.

As for the props, McGrath and Furlong are the standouts from this season. They've both been bulls in the loose and frequently destructive in the scrum.

McGrath/George/Furlong would give a hell of a lot of scrummaging and carrying power for Warrenball.

Best's darts aren't the best, prefer Jamie George but then would it be Ken Owens from the bench.

Big concern I have is that the tour is going to be brutal and a lot of these players are going to pick up knocks as you see some of the mid-week guys that club teams will be putting out and some will be very close to test match intensity.

Well Itoje can pretty much catch anything so surely it doesn't matter who plays at hooker. jokes aside I get the logic but it is the Lions there will be players that aren't used to playing with other players and its up to the management and players to work it out. On the last tour Youngs managed to worm his way into a starting role so I suppose anything can happen.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Well Itoje can pretty much catch anything so surely it doesn't matter who plays at hooker. jokes aside I get the logic but it is the Lions there will be players that aren't used to playing with other players and its up to the management and players to work it out. On the last tour Youngs managed to worm his way into a starting role so I suppose anything can happen.

There will always be players unfamiliar with each other, yes. There is no way that the Lions are challenging NZ without an excellent set-piece though, as such I'd happily see familiar hookers and line-out leaders partnering each other. The warm-ups almost always reveal which players are coping with unfamiliar surroundings and which aren't though. Some relish it and stand-out as unexpected leaders - Parling on the last tour did an excellent job of this in the line-out after Paulie was injured.

It's one of the many interesting parts of a Lions tour, you invariably see players who many thought would be squad filler stand-out as leaders.

Tom Youngs has always caused a lot of debate and is as such a touchy subject - now more than ever sadly. I did enjoy Andy Farrell summing up his rucking at it's very best though, "when Tom hits a ruck he doesn't just clear players out, he f***ing annihilates them". As with all players he has his weaknesses but as a horses for courses selection to counter Pocock and Hooper his ruck work played it's role well. His bowling ball style carrying was as enjoyable to watch as ever on that tour as well I thought. There are few things more fun in rugby that watching a 'little fella' carrying the ball through bigger defenders!

Yeah there is a good chance there wont be an all Ireland or all England front row so that the hookers and second rows are familiar with each other. I guess Gatland will try out a few different combos against the super 14 sides and see which clicks.

SamTheQuin wrote:Best's darts aren't the best, prefer Jamie George but then would it be Ken Owens from the bench.

To be fair to Best he was going strong until the 6 nations and Irelands lineout was dysfunctional until the England game then he got back to the omnishambles that is Ulster and wished he could have Irelands dysfunctional lineout back

POM destroyed us in that game, what a performance that was.

Gatlands preferred starting line up.
Pos Player Country
1 McGrath Ireland
2 Owens Wales
3 Furlong Ireland
4 Jones AW Wales
5 Itoje England
6 Warbuton Wales
7 Tupiric Wales
8 Faletau Wales
9 Webb Wales
10 Sexton Ireland
11 North Wales
12 Teo England
13 Davies Wales
14 Williams Wales
15 Half-penny Wales

tazfalklands wrote:Gatlands preferred starting line up.
Pos Player Country
1 McGrath Ireland
2 Owens Wales
3 Furlong Ireland
4 Jones AW Wales
5 Itoje England
6 Warbuton Wales
7 Tupiric Wales
8 Faletau Wales
9 Webb Wales
10 Sexton Ireland
11 North Wales
12 Teo England
13 Davies Wales
14 Williams Wales
15 Half-penny Wales

I seriously hope we are more ambitious than that.

tazfalklands wrote:Gatlands preferred starting line up.
Pos Player Country
1 McGrath Ireland
2 Owens Wales
3 Furlong Ireland
4 Jones AW Wales
5 Itoje England
6 Warbuton Wales
7 Tupiric Wales
8 Faletau Wales
9 Webb Wales
10 Sexton Ireland
11 North Wales
12 Teo England
13 Davies Wales
14 Williams Wales
15 Half-penny Wales

where from?

tazfalklands wrote:Gatlands preferred starting line up.
Pos Player Country
1 McGrath Ireland
2 Owens Wales
3 Furlong Ireland
4 Jones AW Wales
5 Itoje England
6 Warbuton Wales
7 Tupiric Wales
8 Faletau Wales
9 Webb Wales
10 Sexton Ireland
11 North Wales
12 Teo England
13 Davies Wales
14 Williams Wales
15 Half-penny Wales

Either he is stupid or you are talking drivel - probably the latter

tazfalklands wrote:Gatlands preferred starting line up.
Pos Player Country
1 McGrath Ireland
2 Owens Wales
3 Furlong Ireland
4 Jones AW Wales
5 Itoje England
6 Warbuton Wales
7 Tupiric Wales
8 Faletau Wales
9 Webb Wales
10 Sexton Ireland
11 North Wales
12 Teo England
13 Davies Wales
14 Williams Wales
15 Half-penny Wales

If only they had picked Roberts everything would be perfect!

I think Biggar has the edge over Sexton at the moment as well.

Hopefully Gatland agrees. I fear this Lions tour will wreck Sexton for good.

Actually Rory I do think they will target him and I can see Farrell starting at least 1 of the tests at 10.

Nice little comedy piece in ghe nz herald. If gopperth is the prem player of the year, the lions don't stand a chance. I'm assuming the herald is a bit like the sun in Britain.

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11858265