British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

First topic message reminder :

robbo277 wrote:
But as I said, I don't want players to water down their comments. I want to read what the players think, I don't want to read what the press officer tells them to say.

That's fair enough, and I agree with the rest of your comment on this basis. I personally don't particularly care what Mike Brown thinks, especially when it's as obvious as "experienced test player is disappointed to have not been selected for the Lions". I could have told you that without Mike Brown's public statement. The point where it deviated from him merely expressing his disappointment to one where he's put his foot in his mouth is the fact he questioned the coaches' lack of communication to him personally. Even if he's right- and I think he may well be- to publicly bring that into question in the way he has done is antithetical to the whole business of a squad as a unity, a whole above the self.

As for him being a liability, I agree to an extent, but equally he does get in his fair few verbal and physical scraps. He's clearly not a player who's particularly in control of his emotions, a bit like Biggar, in that he wants to plead his case long after it is obvious his efforts are utterly in vain. He's not a catastrophe by any means, but having played with people like him, they can be liabilities. Ticking time bomb may be the incorrect phrase, and overdoing it slightly, but that doesn't negate the point entirely. Either way, it doesn't particularly matter, as I don't think it really affects his performance or mentality, and the players around him, too much: but if it did, it's hard to quantify anyway.

mikey_dragon wrote:

eirebilly wrote:That is a nice balance rapid but I honestly believe Gatland will pick the following.

06 : Warburton
07 : Tipuric
08 : Faletau

POM on the bench.

Not a bad selection and it will do its job.

Not sure why you think that? On form Stander has to be in there and Gatland has picked the form players. It's possible the back-row you think he'll select will feature at some point, perhaps during a mid-week game. If their form is good then they may feature in one test as was the case in the 2013 tour where everyone got the chance to play in the tests. The one I quite like is:
6. O'Brien
7. Warburton
8. Stander

POM/Haskell on the bench.

Swap SOb for POM and I think you have a very balanced back three there. Must admit to have not seen much of Falatau since his return but when on form, he is a very damaging 8.

LIONS LIONS LIONS............

In Gats we trust.

eirebilly wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

eirebilly wrote:That is a nice balance rapid but I honestly believe Gatland will pick the following.

06 : Warburton
07 : Tipuric
08 : Faletau

POM on the bench.

Not a bad selection and it will do its job.

Not sure why you think that? On form Stander has to be in there and Gatland has picked the form players. It's possible the back-row you think he'll select will feature at some point, perhaps during a mid-week game. If their form is good then they may feature in one test as was the case in the 2013 tour where everyone got the chance to play in the tests. The one I quite like is:
6. O'Brien
7. Warburton
8. Stander

POM/Haskell on the bench.

Swap SOb for POM and I think you have a very balanced back three there. Must admit to have not seen much of Falatau since his return but when on form, he is a very damaging 8.

I haven't watch Faletau for Bath. He didn't feature much for Wales as Moriarty was in good form, but if Faletau gets back to where he was before the injury then yes he is a worthy starter.

mikey_dragon wrote:I haven't watch Faletau for Bath. He didn't feature much for Wales as Moriarty was in good form, but if Faletau gets back to where he was before the injury then yes he is a worthy starter.

From what I've heard, MOTM/excellent performances in the last few games.

Scottrf wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I haven't watch Faletau for Bath. He didn't feature much for Wales as Moriarty was in good form, but if Faletau gets back to where he was before the injury then yes he is a worthy starter.

From what I've heard, MOTM/excellent performances in the last few games.

I heard similar about Moriarty, but that hasn't stopped certain people having a bitch fit.

I have watched Bath and Falateau was excellent.

He is on a totally different level to Moriarty - absolute no brainer.

We need POM at the line out so has to be POM, Falateau, Warburton for me

It seems that most people agree that Stander and Faletau will be interchanging during the All Black tests then. I expect there will be some squad rotation and not all of it through injury.

It's good to hear these reviews about Faletau though. His form and career took one hell of a nose-dive as soon as he went to Bath .

geoff999rugby wrote:I have watched Bath and Falateau was excellent.

He is on a totally different level to Moriarty - absolute no brainer.

We need POM at the line out so has to be POM, Falateau, Warburton for me

I think we need POM at the line-out if we're going with Vunipola or Stander at 8, but I don't think Faletau is the worst in the line-out - he's Wales' third option isn't he?

A back row of Stander at 6, Warburton at 7 and Faletau at 8 may be in order, gives us a bit of everything. It would leave us short of genuine 8s in the midweek team, with Haskell, O'Brien and Moriarty to share the load, but I think getting the balance of the test back row right is paramount.

robbo277 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:I have watched Bath and Falateau was excellent.

He is on a totally different level to Moriarty - absolute no brainer.

We need POM at the line out so has to be POM, Falateau, Warburton for me

I think we need POM at the line-out if we're going with Vunipola or Stander at 8, but I don't think Faletau is the worst in the line-out - he's Wales' third option isn't he?

A back row of Stander at 6, Warburton at 7 and Faletau at 8 may be in order, gives us a bit of everything. It would leave us short of genuine 8s in the midweek team, with Haskell, O'Brien and Moriarty to share the load, but I think getting the balance of the test back row right is paramount.

Isn't that normally Tupiric? Don't remember ever seeing Falateau being lifted!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:I have watched Bath and Falateau was excellent.

He is on a totally different level to Moriarty - absolute no brainer.

We need POM at the line out so has to be POM, Falateau, Warburton for me

I think we need POM at the line-out if we're going with Vunipola or Stander at 8, but I don't think Faletau is the worst in the line-out - he's Wales' third option isn't he?

A back row of Stander at 6, Warburton at 7 and Faletau at 8 may be in order, gives us a bit of everything. It would leave us short of genuine 8s in the midweek team, with Haskell, O'Brien and Moriarty to share the load, but I think getting the balance of the test back row right is paramount.

Isn't that normally Tupiric?

Possibly. Faletau plays with lifting blocks on, and I guess Tipuric doesn't always start. At 6'2 and 17st 5lbs, he shouldn't be too difficult to fire up.

Tipuric over Faletau for Wales in the lineout. Faletau's not a bad option, though I'd be more comfortable with Tipuric lifting at the tail against the All Blacks.

Tipuric was the main option for Wales during this 6N, the previous season Faletau was the main back row option, and IIRC he was a pretty successful option.

Believe it or not Tipuric was the 2nd highest line out taker in the whole 6N this year! 2nd only to Launchbury and ahead of all other 2nd rowers. Wierd. He's not a starting Lion for me though.

The thing is if you pick POM you have a third lineout jumper who is as good as a lock and is great at slowing up[ opposition ball.

Then it becomes a no brainer playing Falateau who is the best 8 in the squad

As I say bring Stander on with 20 mins to go to wreek havoc

When the squad was announced I was keen on a Stander/POM, Warburton and Billy V back row. With Billy out then I'd be happy to simply switch in Faletau. However, he's not exactly the powerhouse 8 that Billy is. I read a post yesterday that said Gats goes for Hulk-like smash and grab 8's. That's just not Faletau, for me, and that's who has always been Gats' favourite 8. So I don't think that description is accurate for Gats on this occasion (if we were talking about 12s then yes I'd agree). I do then wonder if we need to get more power into the back row somewhere else if going for Faletau at 8?

I would say that O'Mahony and Warburton are the obvious choices at 6 & 7 so the added power of Stander would seem more vital than Faletau who I don't feel brings any real x factor unlike the others.

I think I could quite happily go for a POM, Warburton, Stander backrow.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I would say that O'Mahony and Warburton are the obvious choices at 6 & 7 so the added power of Stander would seem more vital than Faletau who I don't feel brings any real x factor unlike the others.

I wouldn't start Warburton personally but Gats will. Right up to the point his injury forces him out of the tour. Then we can have the POM/SOB flanker combo that I'd prefer. Vunipola was the set in stone option at 8 but unfortunately he's injured so probably Falatau there with Stander on the bench.

Griff wrote:Believe it or not Tipuric was the 2nd highest line out taker in the whole 6N this year! 2nd only to Launchbury and ahead of all other 2nd rowers. Wierd. He's not a starting Lion for me though.

Ah the English lock who 'isn't the best line out jumper' vs a flanker in the same team as a certain over rated lock who is a lions tourist...

(To be fair AWJ can be a good lifter. I wonder if he was lifting Tipuric?)

Faletau has been in exceptional form for Bath since his comeback from injury. Moriarty has also been playing well for Gloucester. However they're definitely 2 very different types of player. Faletau has skills to die for whereas Moriarty is more of a "Blunt instrument" with an almost inexhaustable engine. It's a shame to see Billy out, but the Lions will bring the best out of players.

Although the outcome of the tests was dreadful, many thought that Dallaglio would be the starting 8; however injury intervened and after coming on as a replacement in the 1st test, Ryan Jones became the go to 8, displacing the far more experienced Martin Corry. He had 8 caps for Wales at that point. Certainly did his career no harm at all. Starting places are by no means set in stone - do well in the touring games and there may be some surprises.

Mr Bounce wrote:Faletau has been in exceptional form for Bath since his comeback from injury. Moriarty has also been playing well for Gloucester. However they're definitely 2 very different types of player. Faletau has skills to die for whereas Moriarty is more of a "Blunt instrument" with an almost inexhaustable engine. It's a shame to see Billy out, but the Lions will bring the best out of players.

Falatau's Bath form has been a little overhyped. Take the game at Twickenham vs Tigers. He spent the first half getting hammered in contact, mostly by Luke Hamilton his opposite number. In the second half he turned up but really only ran one fantastic line and Dayglo made a mess in his trousers and gave him man of the match. 

I think there's more in the tank but he's peaking at the right time and has had half of the season not playing so should be fresh.

lostinwales wrote:

Griff wrote:Believe it or not Tipuric was the 2nd highest line out taker in the whole 6N this year! 2nd only to Launchbury and ahead of all other 2nd rowers. Wierd. He's not a starting Lion for me though.

Ah the English lock who 'isn't the best line out jumper' vs a flanker in the same team as a certain over rated lock who is a lions tourist...

(To be fair AWJ can be a good lifter. I wonder if he was lifting Tipuric?)

Make of it what you will. I was not debating Lions selection. I was merely answering whether Tipuric is a lineout option or not. Moaning about Lions selections is so last month.

Griff wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Griff wrote:Believe it or not Tipuric was the 2nd highest line out taker in the whole 6N this year! 2nd only to Launchbury and ahead of all other 2nd rowers. Wierd. He's not a starting Lion for me though.

Ah the English lock who 'isn't the best line out jumper' vs a flanker in the same team as a certain over rated lock who is a lions tourist...

(To be fair AWJ can be a good lifter. I wonder if he was lifting Tipuric?)

Make of it what you will.  I was not debating Lions selection.  I was merely answering whether Tipuric is a lineout option or not.  Moaning about Lions selections is so last month.

I dont think he was either. He was questioning whether Tipuric getting use a  lot in the lineout was because hes Tom Croft/Maro Itoje/Chuck Norris or if its because the Welsh locks are rubbish jumpers and theres simply noone else to throw to.
The reality of course is somewhere inbetween. Hes clealry a decent option, and AWJ is clealry not useless.

As you say whether or not AWJ or Tipuric were good selections to tour regardless of their lineout abilities is a moot point now.


The simple fact is theres no player sitting at home who would make a fundamental differnece to the back row resources available. Theres no magic 8 ball.
Its looking like one particular area where regardless of who gets picked for the test side and what the balance is the Lions man for man / on paper are much weaker than NZ.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I would say that O'Mahony and Warburton are the obvious choices at 6 & 7 so the added power of Stander would seem more vital than Faletau who I don't feel brings any real x factor unlike the others.

I wouldn't start Warburton personally but Gats will. Right up to the point his injury forces him out of the tour. Then we can have the POM/SOB flanker combo that I'd prefer. Vunipola was the set in stone option at 8 but unfortunately he's injured so probably Falatau there with Stander on the bench.

I am not so concerned about Warburton starting, as long as he is fully fit. A fully fit Warburton is a very good 7. SOB was a very good 7 as well but he seems to have either gone off the pace or oppositions have worked him out. I would actually have preferred Watson in the squad ahead of SOB.

eirebilly wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I would say that O'Mahony and Warburton are the obvious choices at 6 & 7 so the added power of Stander would seem more vital than Faletau who I don't feel brings any real x factor unlike the others.

I wouldn't start Warburton personally but Gats will. Right up to the point his injury forces him out of the tour. Then we can have the POM/SOB flanker combo that I'd prefer. Vunipola was the set in stone option at 8 but unfortunately he's injured so probably Falatau there with Stander on the bench.

I am not so concerned about Warburton starting, as long as he is fully fit. A fully fit Warburton is a very good 7. SOB was a very good 7 as well but he seems to have either gone off the pace or oppositions have worked him out. I would actually have preferred Watson in the squad ahead of SOB.

So would I but Gatland seems to want only one sort of club in his bag in that respect with Tipuric potentially an 'in case of emergency, break glass' sort of option. If we get massacred at the breakdown, then we don't really have a plan B.

I think that Watson is the type of player at the breakdown that would trouble the AB's. He is a defensive dynamo and I was shocked (after his 6N performances) that he was left out and SOB included.

George Carlin wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I would say that O'Mahony and Warburton are the obvious choices at 6 & 7 so the added power of Stander would seem more vital than Faletau who I don't feel brings any real x factor unlike the others.

I wouldn't start Warburton personally but Gats will. Right up to the point his injury forces him out of the tour. Then we can have the POM/SOB flanker combo that I'd prefer. Vunipola was the set in stone option at 8 but unfortunately he's injured so probably Falatau there with Stander on the bench.

I am not so concerned about Warburton starting, as long as he is fully fit. A fully fit Warburton is a very good 7. SOB was a very good 7 as well but he seems to have either gone off the pace or oppositions have worked him out. I would actually have preferred Watson in the squad ahead of SOB.

So would I but Gatland seems to want only one sort of club in his bag in that respect with Tipuric potentially an 'in case of emergency, break glass' sort of option. If we get massacred at the breakdown, then we don't really have a plan B.

Get massacred at the breakdown with Warbs, Tips, SOB, POM in the squad? Fat chance of that. Give the bitterness a rest, Watson is rubbish.

George Carlin wrote: If we get massacred at the breakdown, then we don't really have a plan B.

Well we do now....get Haskell to run into the nearest goalpost opposition forward

mikey_dragon wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I would say that O'Mahony and Warburton are the obvious choices at 6 & 7 so the added power of Stander would seem more vital than Faletau who I don't feel brings any real x factor unlike the others.

I wouldn't start Warburton personally but Gats will. Right up to the point his injury forces him out of the tour. Then we can have the POM/SOB flanker combo that I'd prefer. Vunipola was the set in stone option at 8 but unfortunately he's injured so probably Falatau there with Stander on the bench.

I am not so concerned about Warburton starting, as long as he is fully fit. A fully fit Warburton is a very good 7. SOB was a very good 7 as well but he seems to have either gone off the pace or oppositions have worked him out. I would actually have preferred Watson in the squad ahead of SOB.

So would I but Gatland seems to want only one sort of club in his bag in that respect with Tipuric potentially an 'in case of emergency, break glass' sort of option. If we get massacred at the breakdown, then we don't really have a plan B.

Get massacred at the breakdown with Warbs, Tips, SOB, POM in the squad? Fat chance of that. Give the bitterness a rest, Watson is rubbish.

Yeah suppose we'd be fine if we can start 4 flankers

mikey_dragon wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I would say that O'Mahony and Warburton are the obvious choices at 6 & 7 so the added power of Stander would seem more vital than Faletau who I don't feel brings any real x factor unlike the others.

I wouldn't start Warburton personally but Gats will. Right up to the point his injury forces him out of the tour. Then we can have the POM/SOB flanker combo that I'd prefer. Vunipola was the set in stone option at 8 but unfortunately he's injured so probably Falatau there with Stander on the bench.

I am not so concerned about Warburton starting, as long as he is fully fit. A fully fit Warburton is a very good 7. SOB was a very good 7 as well but he seems to have either gone off the pace or oppositions have worked him out. I would actually have preferred Watson in the squad ahead of SOB.

So would I but Gatland seems to want only one sort of club in his bag in that respect with Tipuric potentially an 'in case of emergency, break glass' sort of option. If we get massacred at the breakdown, then we don't really have a plan B.

Get massacred at the breakdown with Warbs, Tips, SOB, POM in the squad? Fat chance of that. Give the bitterness a rest, Watson is rubbish.

He's only been slowed down is all, having Warburton, Tipuric and SOB in his back pocket will do that to you

BamBam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I would say that O'Mahony and Warburton are the obvious choices at 6 & 7 so the added power of Stander would seem more vital than Faletau who I don't feel brings any real x factor unlike the others.

I wouldn't start Warburton personally but Gats will. Right up to the point his injury forces him out of the tour. Then we can have the POM/SOB flanker combo that I'd prefer. Vunipola was the set in stone option at 8 but unfortunately he's injured so probably Falatau there with Stander on the bench.

I am not so concerned about Warburton starting, as long as he is fully fit. A fully fit Warburton is a very good 7. SOB was a very good 7 as well but he seems to have either gone off the pace or oppositions have worked him out. I would actually have preferred Watson in the squad ahead of SOB.

So would I but Gatland seems to want only one sort of club in his bag in that respect with Tipuric potentially an 'in case of emergency, break glass' sort of option. If we get massacred at the breakdown, then we don't really have a plan B.

Get massacred at the breakdown with Warbs, Tips, SOB, POM in the squad? Fat chance of that. Give the bitterness a rest, Watson is rubbish.

Yeah suppose we'd be fine if we can start 4 flankers

POM to lock....

mikey_dragon wrote:

BamBam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I would say that O'Mahony and Warburton are the obvious choices at 6 & 7 so the added power of Stander would seem more vital than Faletau who I don't feel brings any real x factor unlike the others.

I wouldn't start Warburton personally but Gats will. Right up to the point his injury forces him out of the tour. Then we can have the POM/SOB flanker combo that I'd prefer. Vunipola was the set in stone option at 8 but unfortunately he's injured so probably Falatau there with Stander on the bench.

I am not so concerned about Warburton starting, as long as he is fully fit. A fully fit Warburton is a very good 7. SOB was a very good 7 as well but he seems to have either gone off the pace or oppositions have worked him out. I would actually have preferred Watson in the squad ahead of SOB.

So would I but Gatland seems to want only one sort of club in his bag in that respect with Tipuric potentially an 'in case of emergency, break glass' sort of option. If we get massacred at the breakdown, then we don't really have a plan B.

Get massacred at the breakdown with Warbs, Tips, SOB, POM in the squad? Fat chance of that. Give the bitterness a rest, Watson is rubbish.

Yeah suppose we'd be fine if we can start 4 flankers

POM to lock....

Play Itoje as the other lock and Stander at 8 we could have 5 (they are both specilaist 6's right?)

Scarlets showed against Leinster (away, and with 14 men for half the game) what can be done with 5 flankers in your pack (I'm counting Tadhg Beirne as he has played flanker for Scarlets a bit this season). They were rubbish in the scrum! But turned-over ball all night long!

So, what would be the best XV we could pick from the squad if based purely on breakdown work?

LondonTiger wrote:So, what would be the best XV we could pick from the squad if based purely on breakdown work?

Something like this, I'd say:

1. M Vunipola
2. Best
3. Furlong
4. Henderson
5. Itoje
6. SOB
7. Warburton
8. Faletau
9. Murray
10. Farrell
11. L Williams
12. Henshaw
13. Tipuric
14. Nowell
15. Payne

I'm not so sure why people are getting so carried away about the breakdown. It's not like NZ have a Pocock or McCaw up their sleve, they have a pack who are all just pretty good in this area, pretty much like what we can put out.

For me, Tipuric is strangely underrated on this forum. The area of his game that was maybe questionable previously was his physicality, he's shown the last couple of seasons that he can mix it (seems to have bulked up a bit). He offers things the other back rowers can't and his decision-making is immaculate. Just awarded Wales player of the season, and took all the Ospreys awards. There would have been riots if Warburton had been picked at 7 in front of him this season, and Warburton has had to rise to the challenge, hence relinquishing the captaincy etc.

Of course it depends on overall balance and what kind of game they want to play whether he should be in the test team.

I must admit, I'm not a big Tipuric fan. He doesn't impose himself physically enough on a game for me.

Winzer wrote:For me, Tipuric is strangely underrated on this forum.  The area of his game that was maybe questionable previously was his physicality, he's shown the last couple of seasons that he can mix it (seems to have bulked up a bit).  He offers things the other back rowers can't and his decision-making is immaculate.  Just awarded Wales player of the season, and took all the Ospreys awards.  There would have been riots if Warburton had been picked at 7 in front of him this season, and Warburton has had to rise to the challenge, hence relinquishing the captaincy etc.  

Of course it depends on overall balance and what kind of game they want to play whether he should be in the test team.

Don't think he's underrated in fact I think most think he should be in the 7 shirt given the squad but given that Warburton is captain we know he will start that's where the problem is

I like Tipuric and think he's definitely more than just a luxury player now, which is something I used to think he was a bit guilty of

Just struggle to see Warbs being seen as the best 6 we've got, whereas at top form he's probably the best 7, and we know he's starting

Tips is going to be a star for the midweek team I reckon but given his lack of versatility he'll need injury to Warburton (entirely possible) to get a Test spot

I was Tips' biggest critic, I found he was hanging out in the backs too much and people were fawning over a forward who was a good passer/kicker of the ball, especially the Scrum V rabble. He still has those skills and occasionally pops up in the back when necessary, but he is doing his primary role as a flanker first and foremost. He's been strong in the tackle area, turning ball over and constantly in the opposition faces - everything you require from a flanker. Cubby Davies takes over as being the most overrated flanker in Wales. His dream came true last Friday when he played most of the match on the wing.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I must admit, I'm not a big Tipuric fan. He doesn't impose himself physically enough on a game for me.

I think you're possibly 12 months out of date with that opinion. It would be fair prior to this last season or so, but since he's been given an extended run starting for Wales, he's more than proven he's physically up to Test rugby. His defence was immense against England and Ireland. If anything, the question marks would be whether or not he's utilising his footballing and turnover skills enough for Wales, and the answer to that would be no, certainly to the latter.

I'd say that that is 90% the tactics though, rather than any failing on Tipuric's part. Wales don't open the game up and allow his footballing talents to come through. Honestly, I'd consider him the 'best' Rugby player in Wales, for whatever that's worth (props will be seething as such a concept never really gives them a chance).

It's probably fair he doesn't impose himself physically with ball in hand, but then so be it. He's exceptional at practically every other aspect of the game. If you can't mitigate that in the other 22 players to accommodate him, you're doing something wrong.

I hope he performs well for the Lions. He's so monumentally a better player than Dan Lydiate it's unbelievable that he doesn't have twice the number of starts than he has, and he was also unlucky to miss the NZ tour last Summer with injury. Given the platform the Irish and English players will bring in the tight 5, it would be great to have him on the bench for the tests.

I just don't see this in him despite watching pretty all his Wales starts. No doubt he's got a good rugby brain and links well but I'm just not a fan. Lydiate had a skill set but was also very limited to that skill set. Moriarty seems to be developing nicely and seems likely to improve, I'd personally go with 6. Moriarty 7. Warbs 8. Faletau for Wales.

I think you must be missing it, then. It's definitely there. His defence, alongside Warburton, against Ireland in particular was brutal.

I don't think I'm missing it, I just have a different opinion.

"(props will be seething as such a concept never really gives them a chance)"

...with the exception of Gethin Jenkins.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't think I'm missing it, I just have a different opinion.

I'd agree, he's very much the Welsh Michael Hooper and he in particular benefitted against England because of our makeshift and less physical back row, not sure he gets much traction in that game with Robshaw and Haskell playing like they have under Jones.

The thing that stands out for me in regard to Tipuric is just how well regarded he is by the Welsh fans untill someone suggests that making Warburton capatain was a mistake because it makes it nigh on impossbile for him to make the test side.
At that point Warburton becomes the greatest 7 ever to live.
Whereas 6 months ago a fair portion of the same people were aplauding the decision to strip Warburton of the Wales captaincy to enable them greater felxibility in selecting Tipuric who actually apparently invented sliced bread rather than just baking it.

I guess the take home message from this is that the Welsh backrow has been utterly dominant in the breakdown and loose play with ball in hand in the games that Tipuric and Warburton have played, and so long as someone does all the tackling and hard yards for them then New Zealand dont stand a chance.

Something like that anyway.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't think I'm missing it, I just have a different opinion.

That's fair enough, but I think- by your own admission- you're saying you don't see his physical attributes, but they're most certainly there, particularly in the season just gone. He topped the tackle stats against Ireland and kept far bigger men than he is behind the gainline with his hits. He has missed a handful of tackles in the last few seasons, and I'd be comfortable in saying he's been one of the top defenders for Wales this season. Alongside that, he's still tearing it up for the Ospreys, and has cleaned up in awards season, again- hardly an objective barometer of ability, or physicality, but the consistency he claims such awards is worth paying attention to.

I wouldn't take it too personally, opinions are strange things: they're hard to shift once you get an idea about a player in your head. Your opinion is, in some ways, fair, based on Tipuric's odd start here or there in the last few years. But it's out of date. It was always a case of 'when' he'd reproduce his Ospreys form, rather than 'if' he was a good enough player for Wales. We're seeing he can do the hard graft now- the thing you're doubting he has in him- and so I'm saying (again, don't take it personally) that you are missing it, it is there.

Gooseberry wrote:I guess the take home message from this is that the Welsh backrow has been utterly dominant in the breakdown and loose play with ball in hand in the games that Tipuric and Warburton have played, and so long as someone does all the tackling and hard yards for them then New Zealand dont stand a chance.  

Something like that anyway.

Na, that's nonsense. On Welsh fans, we're passionate, and that can skew opinions sometimes, particularly as we're used to a boom and bust culture, one whereby the flavour of the month is the Messiah, and the out of form player is cast out of the country. Add in WUMs, and I'd take it all with a pinch of salt. Nevertheless, Tipuric has been outstanding for the Ospreys for over half a decade, and now we're starting to (finally) see his potential on the international stage.

As for the Welsh backrow, Warburton is maybe the best defensive player the Lions have in that position. I'd argue that only PoM comes close. He nullified Stander in this season's championship comprehensively- that in itself should be a worry, and a marker of how much Vunipola will be missed, if we're relying on our 8 to be a battering ram first and foremost, and why I think Faletau is now nailed on for the 8 shirt now.

I don't know if there's a more apt description for Warburton that someone willing to 'do the hard yards', to be honest, whether at 6 or 7.