British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

First topic message reminder :

robbo277 wrote:
But as I said, I don't want players to water down their comments. I want to read what the players think, I don't want to read what the press officer tells them to say.

That's fair enough, and I agree with the rest of your comment on this basis. I personally don't particularly care what Mike Brown thinks, especially when it's as obvious as "experienced test player is disappointed to have not been selected for the Lions". I could have told you that without Mike Brown's public statement. The point where it deviated from him merely expressing his disappointment to one where he's put his foot in his mouth is the fact he questioned the coaches' lack of communication to him personally. Even if he's right- and I think he may well be- to publicly bring that into question in the way he has done is antithetical to the whole business of a squad as a unity, a whole above the self.

As for him being a liability, I agree to an extent, but equally he does get in his fair few verbal and physical scraps. He's clearly not a player who's particularly in control of his emotions, a bit like Biggar, in that he wants to plead his case long after it is obvious his efforts are utterly in vain. He's not a catastrophe by any means, but having played with people like him, they can be liabilities. Ticking time bomb may be the incorrect phrase, and overdoing it slightly, but that doesn't negate the point entirely. Either way, it doesn't particularly matter, as I don't think it really affects his performance or mentality, and the players around him, too much: but if it did, it's hard to quantify anyway.

Maybe it is there but it's not something I've seen from him. The games I've seen him involved in are games that I've watched with the primary purpose of enjoying the rugby rather having being critical of one particular player.

Completed tackle stats are a bit meh for me, they have to form some kind of context.

"He topped the tackle stats against Ireland and kept far bigger men than he is behind the gainline with his hits. He has missed a handful of tackles in the last few seasons, and I'd be comfortable in saying he's been one of the top defenders for Wales this season"

This describes Moriarty rather than Tips imo. Moriarty has came on leaps since being awful during the NZ tour. He has a real physical presence in the tackle area, he was a real pest against us.

Gooseberry wrote:The thing that stands out for me in regard to Tipuric is just how well regarded he is by the Welsh fans untill someone suggests that making Warburton capatain was a mistake because it makes it nigh on impossbile for him to make the test side.
At that point Warburton becomes the greatest 7 ever to live.
Whereas 6 months ago a fair portion of the same people were aplauding the decision to strip Warburton of the Wales captaincy to enable them greater felxibility in selecting Tipuric who actually apparently invented sliced bread rather than just baking it.

I guess the take home message from this is that the Welsh backrow has been utterly dominant in the breakdown and loose play with ball in hand in the games that Tipuric and Warburton have played, and so long as someone does all the tackling and hard yards for them then New Zealand dont stand a chance.  

Something like that anyway.

Not everyone. I've always stated that Warburton was our best option. Our back-row in the 6N worked very well and that was down to the versatility of Warburton and Moriarty.

Gooseberry wrote:The thing that stands out for me in regard to Tipuric is just how well regarded he is by the Welsh fans untill someone suggests that making Warburton capatain was a mistake because it makes it nigh on impossbile for him to make the test side.
At that point Warburton becomes the greatest 7 ever to live.
Whereas 6 months ago a fair portion of the same people were aplauding the decision to strip Warburton of the Wales captaincy to enable them greater felxibility in selecting Tipuric who actually apparently invented sliced bread rather than just baking it.

I guess the take home message from this is that the Welsh backrow has been utterly dominant in the breakdown and loose play with ball in hand in the games that Tipuric and Warburton have played, and so long as someone does all the tackling and hard yards for them then New Zealand dont stand a chance.  

Something like that anyway.

What a child. Oops, another ban for me.

miaow wrote:

As for the Welsh backrow, Warburton is maybe the best defensive player the Lions have in that position. I'd argue that only PoM comes close. He nullified Stander in this season's championship comprehensively- that in itself should be a worry, and a marker of how much Vunipola will be missed, if we're relying on our 8 to be a battering ram first and foremost, and why I think Faletau is now nailed on for the 8 shirt now.

I don't know if there's a more apt description for Warburton that someone willing to 'do the hard yards', to be honest, whether at 6 or 7.

It depends on what you want from a player really, Haskell for instance is a more destructive defensive player than Warburton and during 2016 was immense at tackling anything and clearing out ruck after ruck. You then have Robshaw who isn't quite as physical but always in the right place at the right time but with PoM available but I can't for the live of me understand why Moriarty has been chosen ahead of him nor why he was chosen ahead of Haskell in the first place.

The back row isn't an easy selection at all and all of them aside from Moriarty are bring something to that area that could trouble the AB's.

mikey_dragon wrote:Not everyone. I've always stated that Warburton was our best option. Our back-row in the 6N worked very well and that was down to the versatility of Warburton and Moriarty.

Yeah but you also thought that Josh Navidi was a better openside than Tipuric, so your opinion doesn't really hold much value on this topic, or this board in general.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:It depends on what you want from a player really, Haskell for instance is a more destructive defensive player than Warburton and during 2016 was immense at tackling anything and clearing out ruck after ruck.

Riiight. Not quite sure what you're suggesting by destructive. It's true that Haskell had an Indian Summer under Eddie Jones, in that he was given the freedom to batter his way over the opposition, which- in tandem with the rest of the English pack- worked wonders, for a while. As we've seen this season, Haskell hasn't been nearly effective. In terms of defensive ability, with all due respect, Haskell isn't in the same league as Warburton. To be honest, I don't think that there is a better defensive flanker than Warburton available to the Lions. PoM is a slightly better spoiler, Stander a better carrier, Tipuric a better footballer, but that's the beauty of being able to pair these players with Warburton, who is the consummate all rounder.

But Haskell's a good player, good attitude, and a good asset to have around the squad. Moriarty was picked over him presumably as he can run the ball wider and faster than Haskell, and as both players are 'versatile' back row players with a good, physical tackle, that- alongside being in better form- gave him the edge for selection.

miaow wrote:As we've seen this season, Haskell hasn't been nearly effective.

Yeah, he's a better player fit than injured IMO.

Yes we saw moriarty making yards for fun in the 6ns.

miaow wrote:

Riiight. Not quite sure what you're suggesting by destructive.

Ask that goalpost, its never been the same since.


Joking aside its not even worth reading the rest if youre going to try and sustain an argument that Warbs/Tipuric are in anyway as physicaly imposing in attack or defence as Haskell is.
If youre suggesting that their spoiling and footballing skills make them destructive in a differnet way then yeah fair enough ...but thats clearly not waht was meant by that post.

Again it comes back to how Gatland wants to play and how you balance a side. And the previously poised question "Whats plan B if trying the dark arts at the ruck doenst work?" Well its get Haskell to run at speed into it and hope theres a loose interpretation of charging laws.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yes we saw moriarty making yards for fun in the 6ns.

Its rteally hard to tell on here but I assume that sarcasm?

Hughes made more meters from 8 in the England Wales game than Moriarty did in the entire torunament combined.

Dripping in sarcasm.

This thread lost all credibility when Mikey Dragon stated Hamish Watson is "rubbish". Must not have watched the Scotland vs Wales game where he comprehensively destroyed Faletau, Warburton, Moriarty and Tipuric all by himself.

Got that one saved on my SKY Q, might watch it again tonight

miaow wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Not everyone. I've always stated that Warburton was our best option. Our back-row in the 6N worked very well and that was down to the versatility of Warburton and Moriarty.

Yeah but you also thought that Josh Navidi was a better openside than Tipuric, so your opinion doesn't really hold much value on this topic, or this board in general.

Wow, just wow.

The idea of this forum, and any forum, is to share idea's and opinions. If you are unable to accept this then maybe you should not join in these discussions?

It's going to be a long 7 weeks

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:This thread lost all credibility when Mikey Dragon stated Hamish Watson is "rubbish". Must not have watched the Scotland vs Wales game where he comprehensively destroyed Faletau, Warburton, Moriarty and Tipuric all by himself.

Got that one saved on my SKY Q, might watch it again tonight

Cant think that he really meant that.

I am still firmly of the belief that Watson did far more in the 6N to get selected ahead of SOB. SOB is simply not as good as he once was and I think Watson's work at the breakdown would have been a massive help in New Zealand.

RDW_Scotland wrote:It's going to be a long 7 weeks

Certainly for Scotlanders

I think Hamish Watson is very good, and would be happy for him to be on tour, but his contribution in that game is in danger of becoming mythical!

RDW, have you ever seen Judge Dredd or read 2000AD?

I would imagine when they send Old Judges out into the cursed earth with a copy of the laws and a single pistol to "take the law to the lawless" is something like being an admin on this type of thread.  

Winzer wrote:I think Hamish Watson is very good, and would be happy for him to be on tour, but his contribution in that game is in danger of becoming mythical!

Some say Hamish Watson has a diary - It's called the Guinness Book of World Records.

Gooseberry wrote:

miaow wrote:

Riiight. Not quite sure what you're suggesting by destructive.

Ask that goalpost, its never been the same since.


Joking aside its not even worth reading the rest if youre going to try and sustain an argument that Warbs/Tipuric are in anyway as physicaly imposing in attack or defence as Haskell is.
If youre suggesting that their spoiling and footballing skills make them destructive in a differnet way then yeah fair enough ...but thats clearly not waht was meant by that post.

Again it comes back to how Gatland wants to play and how you balance a side. And the previously poised question "Whats plan B if trying the dark arts at the ruck doenst work?" Well its get Haskell to run at speed into it and hope theres a loose interpretation of charging laws.

Haha, he could definitely have taught Flood a thing or two.

I wouldn't say Tipuric is, by no means. But I'm not sure why you're conflating him with Warburton, who is an absolute menace in the contact area. For years he has been hammering people in the tackle, and regularly slows down opposition ball due to his strength in the rucks, even when he doesn't turn the ball over. Haskell has his uses, but whilst he's a big boy, he doesn't utilise his physicality in the same broad effectiveness as Warburton. Yes, he's good as a bulldozer, especially when playing behind an utterly dominant front 5 as England were in the 2016 6Ns. But Warburton's been a physical menace for years, often for a team that's going backwards.

Context is everything- Haskell is a good player, and had an excellent season last year, but- as I said at the time- in no way will the Lions have the dominance that England had at that time, even if you selected the full England 23 en masse. I don't really think his destructive ability will be all that relevant to a tour in NZ, to be honest, as we haven't seen him perform consistently against the best teams, nor have we seen him perform individually when his team hasn't given him a good platform. Add in the (hopefully) healthy platform, and- as you said- all the other elements of breakdown play that Warburton, or O'Mahony, or Tipuric bring mean Haskell, in my opinion, really isn't in their league in terms of challenging for a Test start.

I think he'll do very well in the warm up games though.

In terms of Plan B, aside from saying "there won't be, it's Gatland" (but yeah, there won't be), I'd say Tipuric or Stander coming on from the bench would be a better bet. I don't think Haskell is quite there in being able to replicate his bulldozing against the All Blacks. Honestly, I think Lawes or Itoje might be a way to mix up the loose forwards in the Tests before Haskell gets a chance. I just don't think he's a top drawer player, but I'm weirdly happy that he's made to Tour, not least for the fact that the players cam diary will be infinitely more entertaining now.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Winzer wrote:I think Hamish Watson is very good, and would be happy for him to be on tour, but his contribution in that game is in danger of becoming mythical!

Some say Hamish Watson has a diary - It's called the Guinness Book of World Records.

You have now stumbled on his nickname "Chuck".

eirebilly wrote:

miaow wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Not everyone. I've always stated that Warburton was our best option. Our back-row in the 6N worked very well and that was down to the versatility of Warburton and Moriarty.

Yeah but you also thought that Josh Navidi was a better openside than Tipuric, so your opinion doesn't really hold much value on this topic, or this board in general.

Wow, just wow.

The idea of this forum, and any forum, is to share idea's and opinions. If you are unable to accept this then maybe you should not join in these discussions?

Perhaps you've been privileged enough to have missed the vast majority of this poster's contributions to these boards. If you have, I envy you.

However, aside from years of WUMming, in reference to this particular opinion in particular, it was suggested several times that, because Navidi looked good against the likes of Treviso and Zebre in the Pro12, and Tipuric had mixed performances in a Lions and Wales shirt, that Navidi was a better player. Now, the cynic in me would suggest that this was only done to bait the posters who, almost unanimously, and pretty understandably, were lauding Tipuric's performances, which were sublime every week for the Ospreys. If I'm going to be less cynical and, as you say, treat the forum as one where everyone enters into it with the same, honest intentions of discussion and debate, and not to wind up, or bait, or mock, then taking that opinion on face value, it's absolute horse excrement.

In which case, I think it's presumably fair to suggest that said poster's opinion on Tipuric isn't one that holds much value. Not every opinion is equal. But then again, everyone is free to post their ideas on here, as you say, and I'm not suggesting they shouldn't be: just that we should perhaps think of the intentions or merits of those opinions.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:RDW, have you ever seen Judge Dredd or read 2000AD?

I would imagine when they send Old Judges out into the cursed earth with a copy of the laws and a single pistol to "take the law to the lawless" is something like being an admin on this type of thread.  

He's more Rinder than Dredd

eirebilly wrote:

miaow wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Not everyone. I've always stated that Warburton was our best option. Our back-row in the 6N worked very well and that was down to the versatility of Warburton and Moriarty.

Yeah but you also thought that Josh Navidi was a better openside than Tipuric, so your opinion doesn't really hold much value on this topic, or this board in general.

Wow, just wow.

The idea of this forum, and any forum, is to share idea's and opinions. If you are unable to accept this then maybe you should not join in these discussions?

I put the menopausal cat on ignore over a year ago. He's got serious issues with people disagreeing with his naf point of view, that and he writes a 10,000 word literature review for every comment. I know I'm not the only one so to see him still on here and still obsessing after me as if I give a sh't is sad. It used to be funny, but now it's just sad.

Hero wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:RDW, have you ever seen Judge Dredd or read 2000AD?

I would imagine when they send Old Judges out into the cursed earth with a copy of the laws and a single pistol to "take the law to the lawless" is something like being an admin on this type of thread.  

He's more Rinder than Dredd

I'm not cool enough to know what any of this means!

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:This thread lost all credibility when Mikey Dragon stated Hamish Watson is "rubbish". Must not have watched the Scotland vs Wales game where he comprehensively destroyed Faletau, Warburton, Moriarty and Tipuric all by himself.

Got that one saved on my SKY Q, might watch it again tonight

Nah didn't see that one, what happened? I also heard there was a rugby world cup final on that weekend in Scotland, can you clarify?

mikey_dragon wrote:I put the menopausal cat on ignore over a year ago. He's got serious issues with people disagreeing with his naf point of view, that and he writes a 10,000 word literature review for every comment. I know I'm not the only one so to see him still on here and still obsessing after me as if I give a sh't is sad. It used to be funny, but now it's just sad.

All the grace of Donald Trump

(BTW I'm disappointed no one picked up and ran with the Chuck Norris quotes)

mikey_dragon wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

miaow wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Not everyone. I've always stated that Warburton was our best option. Our back-row in the 6N worked very well and that was down to the versatility of Warburton and Moriarty.

Yeah but you also thought that Josh Navidi was a better openside than Tipuric, so your opinion doesn't really hold much value on this topic, or this board in general.

Wow, just wow.

The idea of this forum, and any forum, is to share idea's and opinions. If you are unable to accept this then maybe you should not join in these discussions?

I put the menopausal cat on ignore over a year ago. He's got serious issues with people disagreeing with his naf point of view, that and he writes a 10,000 word literature review for every comment. I know I'm not the only one so to see him still on here and still obsessing after me as if I give a sh't is sad. It used to be funny, but now it's just sad.

I'm trying to let some things go on this thread as there would be no one left if we got the banhammer out but these comments really don't help - if he's on your foe list already then please just ignore him if you don't get on!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

miaow wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Not everyone. I've always stated that Warburton was our best option. Our back-row in the 6N worked very well and that was down to the versatility of Warburton and Moriarty.

Yeah but you also thought that Josh Navidi was a better openside than Tipuric, so your opinion doesn't really hold much value on this topic, or this board in general.

Wow, just wow.

The idea of this forum, and any forum, is to share idea's and opinions. If you are unable to accept this then maybe you should not join in these discussions?

I put the menopausal cat on ignore over a year ago. He's got serious issues with people disagreeing with his naf point of view, that and he writes a 10,000 word literature review for every comment. I know I'm not the only one so to see him still on here and still obsessing after me as if I give a sh't is sad. It used to be funny, but now it's just sad.

I'm trying to let some things go on this thread as there would be no one left if we got the banhammer out but these comments really don't help - if he's on your foe list already then please just ignore him if you don't get on!

Well tell him to stop replying then, I informed him of the situation over a year ago. He is perennially ignored and I don't see an issue with reiterating my course of action - which again was taken well over a year ago.

Your comment is acknowledged anyway, so maybe advise them to use the foe button?

RDW_Scotland wrote:(BTW I'm disappointed no one picked up and ran with the Chuck Norris quotes)

They did its just we are too busy obsessing over whether Miaow is a specilaist menopausal cat or just being used out of position.

eirebilly wrote:

miaow wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Not everyone. I've always stated that Warburton was our best option. Our back-row in the 6N worked very well and that was down to the versatility of Warburton and Moriarty.

Yeah but you also thought that Josh Navidi was a better openside than Tipuric, so your opinion doesn't really hold much value on this topic, or this board in general.

Wow, just wow.

The idea of this forum, and any forum, is to share idea's and opinions. If you are unable to accept this then maybe you should not join in these discussions?

Well said.

It comes as no surprise that a number of 606's more...dubious...contributors have an 'obsession' with pussycats online, to be honest

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yes we saw moriarty making yards for fun in the 6ns.

https://youtu.be/EJnuyoRPBY0?t=1h20m17s

I'd be surprised if Haskell could do that, to be honest.

miaow wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yes we saw moriarty making yards for fun in the 6ns.

https://youtu.be/EJnuyoRPBY0?t=1h20m17s

I'd be surprised if Haskell could do that, to be honest.

C'mon Miaow....that was a WC warm up game against the mighty Italy!

Moriarty has his talents, carrying is not one of them.

6 Nations metres per carry:

Moriarty: 1.35
Haskell: 1.48

10% better at carrying even with Moriarty being able to run the ball wider and faster.

Not from this year then. His carrying was frankly below par especially when you consider he was covering 8. Haskell is a good carrier to be fair probably England's best flanker for hard yards. I know it was a partial wum above but england fans were a bit disappointed in Hughes carrying after vunipola and Morgan in the past but when comparing to moriarty it was light years ahead.

Of course, but I said he can carry the ball wider and faster than Haskell, and there's some evidence of him doing so for Wales. Particularly if he's going to be asked to cover 8 in the midweek games, I think Moriarty will have to carry the ball more than he did in the 6Ns, and he has the pace and agility to be able to do that- like Faletau- in the channels that I don't think Haskell is as comfortable in. Not a massive point, but part of the reason, as above, why I think Moriarty was initially selected over Haskell.

miaow wrote:It comes as no surprise that a number of 606's more...dubious...contributors have an 'obsession' with pussycats online, to be honest

Why do you have to be snide about anyone who doesn't agree with you?

Get called a "menopausal cat" having called out someone for having some really strange/dubious opinions...snide? Really?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not from this year then. His carrying was frankly below par especially when you consider he was covering 8. Haskell is a good carrier to be fair probably England's best flanker for hard yards.  I know it was a partial wum above but england fans were a bit disappointed in Hughes carrying after vunipola and Morgan in the past but when comparing to moriarty it was light years ahead.

Haskell's certainly improved from his early years, where he'd make huge breaks and then get isolated and turn the ball over. Ironically, he's a more effective player for making fewer yards.

Didn't see enough of Moriarty's carrying to judge how he was playing, but for me the key thing for any ball carrier is to make sure they get the ball back cleanly as often as possible. Fewer yards and quick ball are worth more than more yards but slow ball.

miaow wrote:Of course, but I said he can carry the ball wider and faster than Haskell, and there's some evidence of him doing so for Wales. Particularly if he's going to be asked to cover 8 in the midweek games, I think Moriarty will have to carry the ball more than he did in the 6Ns, and he has the pace and agility to be able to do that- like Faletau- in the channels that I don't think Haskell is as comfortable in. Not a massive point, but part of the reason, as above, why I think Moriarty was initially selected over Haskell.

Have you not seen Haskell run into a post!

Moriarty should be eating the yards from the base of the scrum, but he just doesn't. Haskell played flank and carried better, carrying was not a reason he was selected over Haskell. I'd have a stab at he's 1. Welsh 2. Form......Haskell has been out a while and wasn't fully firing.

I agree poorfour. To downplay haskell carrying...I don't get it. He is very good. Has speed. Still think he's the scarecrow from the wizard of Oz but that's another matter.

To be honest anyone who seriously thinks Gatland selects players based on their nationality rather than their individual merits isn't worth talking to beyond a certain point, sorry. There are plenty of reasons why certain players, Welsh and non-Welsh, were either selected, or just missed out. It's bordering on conspiracy theory to genuinely believe that Gatland- in what will be the biggest test in his coaching career- would select players based on nationality because of, what, some personal bias? What could he possibly hope to gain by doing this?

No 7&1/2 wrote:I agree poorfour. To downplay haskell carrying...I don't get it. He is very good. Has speed. Still think he's the scarecrow from the wizard of Oz but that's another matter.

Carrying was always one of Haskell's strengths, I'd say he's the ideal replacement for Billy V. I don't agree with those downplaying Moriarty though, he's by no means a poor carrier.

By no means was I saying that Haskell is a poor carrier, nor that Moriarty was 'better', merely that Moriarty can play an open game that Haskell wouldn't be as good at. I'm genuinely not sure how anyone could disagree with that, to be honest.

Haskell made one carry against France for about 2 yards but it was pivotal to setting up the winning try, I can't think of a single thing that Moriarty does better to be honest, form or not.

Mainly people who have watched him miaow.

Mikey he wasn't good in the 6ns especially considering he was playing 8. Outstanding tackler, he's going as this year's Lydiate albeit fit.

miaow wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yes we saw moriarty making yards for fun in the 6ns.

https://youtu.be/EJnuyoRPBY0?t=1h20m17s

I'd be surprised if Haskell could do that, to be honest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG0K7KaYIwY

Equally rubbish opposition