British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

First topic message reminder :

robbo277 wrote:
But as I said, I don't want players to water down their comments. I want to read what the players think, I don't want to read what the press officer tells them to say.

That's fair enough, and I agree with the rest of your comment on this basis. I personally don't particularly care what Mike Brown thinks, especially when it's as obvious as "experienced test player is disappointed to have not been selected for the Lions". I could have told you that without Mike Brown's public statement. The point where it deviated from him merely expressing his disappointment to one where he's put his foot in his mouth is the fact he questioned the coaches' lack of communication to him personally. Even if he's right- and I think he may well be- to publicly bring that into question in the way he has done is antithetical to the whole business of a squad as a unity, a whole above the self.

As for him being a liability, I agree to an extent, but equally he does get in his fair few verbal and physical scraps. He's clearly not a player who's particularly in control of his emotions, a bit like Biggar, in that he wants to plead his case long after it is obvious his efforts are utterly in vain. He's not a catastrophe by any means, but having played with people like him, they can be liabilities. Ticking time bomb may be the incorrect phrase, and overdoing it slightly, but that doesn't negate the point entirely. Either way, it doesn't particularly matter, as I don't think it really affects his performance or mentality, and the players around him, too much: but if it did, it's hard to quantify anyway.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I can see Jack Nowell having a great tour.

Already a star*

He wouldn't be in many people's Test sides though. He's a player I can see forcing his way into the reckoning.

I have been called naive for thinking anyone can play their way into the Test side, but I hope that's not true.

Even if he doesn't make the Test side, I think he'll have a good tour. He's a team player.

If you are, so am I. Really hoping it's an open tour. If we're to beat the All Blacks, we need players who are in form on tour.

I'm afraid I can't see Gatland picking a test side without AWJ, North and Halfpenny.

Warburton I leave out because he is the captain and at this stage, despite being injured is there on merit. However I think AWJ, North and Halfpenny will all start the first test, regardless of the form of their peers unless they are injured.

* Was injured. Past tense.

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I can see Jack Nowell having a great tour.

Already a star*

He wouldn't be in many people's Test sides though. He's a player I can see forcing his way into the reckoning.

I have been called naive for thinking anyone can play their way into the Test side, but I hope that's not true.

Even if he doesn't make the Test side, I think he'll have a good tour. He's a team player.

If you are, so am I. Really hoping it's an open tour. If we're to beat the All Blacks, we need players who are in form on tour.

I'm afraid I can't see Gatland picking a test side without AWJ, North and Halfpenny.

Warburton I leave out because he is the captain and at this stage, despite being injured is there on merit. However I think AWJ, North and Halfpenny will all start the first test, regardless of the form of their peers unless they are injured.

* Was injured.  Past tense.

thanks Griff

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I can see Jack Nowell having a great tour.

Already a star*

He wouldn't be in many people's Test sides though. He's a player I can see forcing his way into the reckoning.

I have been called naive for thinking anyone can play their way into the Test side, but I hope that's not true.

Even if he doesn't make the Test side, I think he'll have a good tour. He's a team player.

If you are, so am I. Really hoping it's an open tour. If we're to beat the All Blacks, we need players who are in form on tour.

I'm afraid I can't see Gatland picking a test side without AWJ, North and Halfpenny.

Warburton I leave out because he is the captain and at this stage, despite being injured is there on merit. However I think AWJ, North and Halfpenny will all start the first test, regardless of the form of their peers unless they are injured.

He might not, and I understand the squad selection probably reinforces that belief. But I need to believe that Gatland will reward tour form, or I'll struggle to get invested in the tour games at all.

I think Gatland wants AWJ, North and Halfpenny on tour in case they come good in the tour games. If not and their form stinks, I don't think he would hesitate in dropping them.

The real question comes if AWJ is turning in 6's and Lawes or Henderson are turning in 9's. Will Gatland drop one of the guys he's had pencilled in from the start who's performing adequately for someone who's performing fantastically? I'd hope so, but I think there may be a lower threshold for the players you've mentioned.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:The tour will have been a success if no player gets a career-ending or career-affecting injury - the results are irrelevant.

I seriously doubt players go out there and measure success based on not getting injured. If they do, they are playing the wrong sport.

The players should be going out there with the mindset of "Let's get out there and try and beat NZ". If they go out there thinking "I hope I don't pick up a career affecting injury" they should have been left behind.

The subject of the sentence is "the tour" not "the players". The Lions are unique because it provides a chance for the players to let their egos loose, so injury is the last thing on their minds. The Lions is the rugby equivalent of getting plastered on a stag weekend and jumping from a third floor balcony into the swimming pool - they know they do things they shouldn't because they want to make that test start and it might be their only chance ever. Their own ego will make them play through the pain barrier and keep the niggles secret, maybe hit the squad competition that bit harder in training, definitely hit the 'warm-up' opponents that are out to crock them anyway, and above all make up for the lack of game structure by busting a gut in every game.

If getting "out there" and beating NZ comes at the cost of a player's career, then the tour will have been a disaster for him personally, his club and his country - and for what... to line the pockets of the NZ Union? The measure of success for the tour will be if the players return intact from this meaningless circus so that they can still play for those teams and fans that actually care about their welfare.

Some people say the same about internationals. Others about clubs.

The Lions make a truck load of money through sponsorship. Does that money get distributed to the various unions?

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I can see Jack Nowell having a great tour.

Already a star*

He wouldn't be in many people's Test sides though. He's a player I can see forcing his way into the reckoning.

I have been called naive for thinking anyone can play their way into the Test side, but I hope that's not true.

Even if he doesn't make the Test side, I think he'll have a good tour. He's a team player.

If you are, so am I. Really hoping it's an open tour. If we're to beat the All Blacks, we need players who are in form on tour.

I'm afraid I can't see Gatland picking a test side without AWJ, North and Halfpenny.

Warburton I leave out because he is the captain and at this stage, despite being injured is there on merit. However I think AWJ, North and Halfpenny will all start the first test, regardless of the form of their peers unless they are injured.

* Was injured.  Past tense.**

** to be injured. Future tense

ebop wrote:The Lions make a truck load of money through sponsorship. Does that money get distributed to the various unions?

Any profit is split between the four Home Unions. The tours used make losses but the the 2009 tour made £4million (giving each union £1million). 2013 made more.

Rugby Fan wrote:

ebop wrote:The Lions make a truck load of money through sponsorship. Does that money get distributed to the various unions?

Any profit is split between the four Home Unions. The tours used make losses but the the 2009 tour made £4million (giving each union £1million). 2013 made more.

Thanks Rugby Fan. The CEO indicated this tour will be very profitable for the Lions nations. So that's good.

Vern Cotter,

'There is enough power through the Lions team, whether it is midfield or second row. I think with [Maro] Itoje and [George] Kruis the Lions probably have anything as good as the All Blacks. I believe the scrum will put New Zealand under pressure, and I think there is enough depth in that Lions squad to have a powerful bench, and put pressure on New Zealand'

Gats take note - there's your 2nd row.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Vern Cotter,

'There is enough power through the Lions team, whether it is midfield or second row. I think with [Maro] Itoje and [George] Kruis the Lions probably have anything as good as the All Blacks. I believe the scrum will put New Zealand under pressure, and I think there is enough depth in that Lions squad to have a powerful bench, and put pressure on New Zealand'

Gats take note - there's your 2nd row.

Well there you go Scotland ... even if youd had your voice on teh selection panel he wouldve just pushed for the England boys of the Grays anyway.

Please no more whinging.

Nz reliant on read and retallick as apparently. Still would have preferred to see j gray and Launchbury lining up.

Hope Vern got paid for that

ebop wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

ebop wrote:The Lions make a truck load of money through sponsorship. Does that money get distributed to the various unions?

Any profit is split between the four Home Unions. The tours used make losses but the the 2009 tour made £4million (giving each union £1million). 2013 made more.

Thanks Rugby Fan. The CEO indicated this tour will be very profitable for the Lions nations. So that's good.

2005 obviously making a loss, because flights, accommodation and food for 93 for 6 weeks isn't cheap!

Rugby Fan wrote:

ebop wrote:The Lions make a truck load of money through sponsorship. Does that money get distributed to the various unions?

Any profit is split between the four Home Unions. The tours used make losses but the the 2009 tour made £4million (giving each union £1million). 2013 made more.

So Scotland get the same even though they are hardly contributing?

Each Union gets I think 80K for each player they contribute as well. Why do you think Gats brings so many Welsh players. WRU probably get a truckload for Gats as well.

Sin é wrote:Each Union gets I think 80K for each player they contribute as well. Why do you think Gats brings so many Welsh players. WRU probably get a truckload for Gats as well.

That's interesting ain't it

robbo277 wrote:2005 obviously making a loss, because flights, accommodation and food for 93 for 6 weeks isn't cheap!

The costs for 91 were ok.

However the costs for Alistair Campbell's morality lessons and the excessive fake tan demands from Gav blew a hole right through the budget.

Looing at the backrowers I'd say
it is ay two from three - POM, Stander, Falatau starting with Warburton
Tipuric is there if/when Warburton breaks down
SOB  is an impact sub

Henderson, Morarity, Haskell has mid week  written all over it

So is Henderson going as a lock or blind-side, or both? Is he a specialist centre?

mikey_dragon wrote:So is Henderson going as a lock or blind-side, or both? Is he a specialist centre?

Even as an Irishman, his specialist position on the lions squad should be 'left right out'

Even I cringed when I wrote that

Henderson going as both, obviously, that's why he made the plane otherwise it would be a specialist in one of two positions.

Whilst his future lies at lock currently he currently plays most of his rugby at 6 which is why I have suggested he should, primarily, be considered there.

ebop wrote:

Sin é wrote:Each Union gets I think 80K for each player they contribute as well. Why do you think Gats brings so many Welsh players. WRU probably get a truckload for Gats as well.

That's interesting ain't it

True...he's smarter than he looks ebop!

Toulon beat Rochelle so they have one more game. Not sure whether Halfpenny has a deal to leave for the Lions. If not, he'll be tied up for another week.

Tthe commentator on the T 14 semi said that HalfP had a clause to allow him to miss the final so he can leave on time for NZ.

sensisball wrote:Tthe commentator on the T 14 semi said that HalfP had a clause to allow him to miss the final so he can leave on time for NZ.

Thanks. I hear Halfpenny's contract negotiations with Toulon have turned a bit sour. Don't think it will improve Boudjellal's mood to see him miss the final, no matter what was in the contract.

That's crazy, missing the pinnacle of the domestic season just to have a bit of extra time with the Lions.

geoff999rugby wrote:Henderson going as both, obviously, that's why he made the plane otherwise it would be a specialist in one of two positions.

Whilst his future lies at lock currently he currently plays most of his rugby at 6 which is why I have suggested he should, primarily, be considered there.

That would be a big pack; and contrary to popular belief NZ can be outmuscled, SA did it for years. The Lions will need more to their game to win though.

Cyril wrote:That's crazy, missing the pinnacle of the domestic season just to have a bit of extra time with the Lions.

Yes, I'm sure the 71 and 74 seasons were remembered for their domestic seasons.

Taylorman wrote:

Cyril wrote:That's crazy, missing the pinnacle of the domestic season just to have a bit of extra time with the Lions.

Yes, I'm sure the 71 and 74 seasons were remembered for their domestic seasons.

Missing it to play table tennis and Call of Duty is different than missing it to play a test.

Back in the amateur era there were fewer tests, only 5N etc. and there was no question of conflict. Halfpenny is totally wrong putting personal glory above his teammates and his employers. Little wonder he has fallen out with them.

The Great Aukster wrote:Back in the amateur era there were fewer tests, only 5N etc. and there was no question of conflict. Halfpenny is totally wrong putting personal glory above his teammates and his employers. Little wonder he has fallen out with them.

The Lions is something a bit special, but I agree with this sentiment. What must his Toulon teammates think of this? He is effectively turning his back on them when they arguably need him the most.

I'm not privy to their discussions or their opinions on the matter, but I'd be a bit miffed if I was on the Toulon team facing the final without our goal kicker.

The Lions USED to be special in an era when there was hardly any rugby broadcast on tv or radio. Seeing a bunch of players gradually meld into a team over a dozen games and form lifelong friendships was what rugby was all about.
Today the Lions is purely about extracting maximum cash in minimum time which is not really special - not even a little bit.
For 1/2p to be bought by a mercenary tour is completely unedifying.

So it was special in the amateur era and now makes a tonne cash in the pro era.

Club rugby used to be special but now it's just a bunch of people playing rugby for money. There's not that much honour in winning a domestic club competition these days. Whippty whoo, Toulon win a French club competition with a bunch of foreigners. Pretty dull. Boudjelly probably thinks it's really meaningful. Money well spent. Good on Halfpenny, being British meant more to him than some French nutjob's ego.

ebop wrote:..There's not that much honour in winning a domestic club competition these days...

Not true at all in the Northern Hemisphere

Rugby Fan wrote:

ebop wrote:..There's not that much honour in winning a domestic club competition these days...

Not true at all in the Northern Hemisphere

Yeah I know and it explains a lot

Toulon go great guns but France suck

Saracens and England are doing quite well. Avoids the point that there is club rugby internationals and even the lions. All are good fun to watch.

I'd also like to say that I am big enough to admit when I am wrong. JD2 is a class act. And is well worth his place on this Lions tour.

ebop wrote:Club rugby used to be special but now it's just a bunch of people playing rugby for money. There's not that much honour in winning a domestic club competition these days. Whippty whoo, Toulon win a French club competition with a bunch of foreigners. Pretty dull. Boudjelly probably thinks it's really meaningful. Money well spent. Good on Halfpenny, being British meant more to him than some French nutjob's ego.

I agree on the point of Toulon and even the T14 to a certain degree. I can't agree on the rest of Europe though, club competitions are often much more important to fans than England winning a 6N etc.

Club rugby whether professional or amateur represents the area where they are based. Halfpenny represents Toulon and gets well paid to do so. To turn his back on his TEAM in their most important game of the year is against the very traditions of the game.
A club final means a lot to those supporters who have followed their team week in week out through thick and thin. The betrayal of his team for thirty pieces of silver is indefensible.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I'd also like to say that I am big enough to admit when I am wrong. JD2 is a class act. And is well worth his place on this Lions tour.

You weren't wrong as he's been playing poorly for a while. Since he got that Wales jersey back on he's improved.

ebop wrote:Club rugby used to be special but now it's just a bunch of people playing rugby for money. There's not that much honour in winning a domestic club competition these days. Whippty whoo, Toulon win a French club competition with a bunch of foreigners. Pretty dull. Boudjelly probably thinks it's really meaningful. Money well spent. Good on Halfpenny, being British meant more to him than some French nutjob's ego.

Really? Why don't you ask the players and fans of Exeter and Scarlets just how much winning a domestic club competition. Pretty sure they will say its brilliant...

ebop wrote:Club rugby used to be special but now it's just a bunch of people playing rugby for money. There's not that much honour in winning a domestic club competition these days. Whippty whoo, Toulon win a French club competition with a bunch of foreigners. Pretty dull. Boudjelly probably thinks it's really meaningful. Money well spent. Good on Halfpenny, being British meant more to him than some French nutjob's ego.

 I think its different in the Northern hemisphere ebop, they play club rugby up to almost International level, whereas we have several layers of competition between Club and International levels.

 I am sure the Suburbs boys are pretty proud of being current holders of the Gallaher Shield but they also have an English lock who is down here learning the game. But youre right in the sense that it doesnt compare to winning a Ranfurly Shield or a Super Rugby trophy let alone a Bledisloe Cup or even a.......

Thought you guys loved your rugby down there?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Thought you guys loved your rugby down there?

 I'll reply to that question in a couple of weeks time 7.5.

 Things are starting build up here, I was out in the CBD last night and quite noticeable that there are a few Lions jerseys about.

Not sure you ll have too much to hide from! Jones chipped in yesterday to add his doubts to the game plan which is liking more likely. I'm still holding out hope it's a bit of a double bluff and we'll see Sexton and Farrell in the same team.

ebop wrote:Club rugby used to be special but now it's just a bunch of people playing rugby for money. There's not that much honour in winning a domestic club competition these days. Whippty whoo, Toulon win a French club competition with a bunch of foreigners. Pretty dull. Boudjelly probably thinks it's really meaningful. Money well spent. Good on Halfpenny, being British meant more to him than some French nutjob's ego.

For me, it's all about Ha'penny's contract.

If he's legally bound to play all of their domestic games, then he should honour these arrangements and play for his club. If his contract exempts him, then absolutely he should go. it's fine to take money for playing rugby, but that means you should be professional in every sense of the word.

You didn't see the likes of Liam Williams taking it easy in the Pro12 final the other day.

George Carlin wrote:

ebop wrote:Club rugby used to be special but now it's just a bunch of people playing rugby for money. There's not that much honour in winning a domestic club competition these days. Whippty whoo, Toulon win a French club competition with a bunch of foreigners. Pretty dull. Boudjelly probably thinks it's really meaningful. Money well spent. Good on Halfpenny, being British meant more to him than some French nutjob's ego.

For me, it's all about Ha'penny's contract.

If he's legally bound to play all of their domestic games, then he should honour these arrangements and play for his club. If his contract exempts him, then absolutely he should go. it's fine to take money for playing rugby, but that means you should be professional in every sense of the word.

You didn't see the likes of Liam Williams taking it easy in the Pro12 final the other day.

 However arent you going down the line of undermining International Rugby?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not sure you ll have too much to hide from! Jones chipped in yesterday to add his doubts to the game plan which is liking more likely. I'm still holding out hope it's a bit of a double bluff and we'll see Sexton and Farrell in the same team.

As Davies is looking right back to form, I would doubt that we will see Sexton and Farrell in the same team forming a 10-12 axis. I would suggest that (based on form and Gatlands familiarity with players) it will look more like this :

09 : Webb (Murray is only just returning from injury and looked slightly off form the last two games)
10 : Farrell (looks in way better form than Sexton currently)
11 : North (he will just get in there because he is George North and Gatland rates him highly, I would prefer Nowell)
12 : Henshaw (in because of his size and skill at 12, pip's Teo due to international experience)
13 : Davies (has returned to form well and is looking the best 13 option again)
14 : Williams (In good form and can be a very damaging counter attacker)
15 : Halfpenny (again, I would go for Hogg but 1/2p is a trusted performer for Gatland, will be even more assured as a starter if Sexton is selected ahead of Farrell)

I could be very wrong on this but I cant see it being far off.