Lions 2017 - the decider

First topic message reminder :



After months if not years, of debate, arguments and plenty bickering the time has come - The Lions are in New Zealand and the tour has begun!

I think it is fair to say that if you're not a fan of the concept of the Lions then this isn't the thread to bring it up - we have had plenty of that over several months and the debate has been done to death. This thread will hopefully be a positive place where those excited about the tour (like me!) can talk about everything that's going on. That's until Jamie Roberts gets a callup of course...

3 June - Provincial union team (Toll Stadium, Whangarei)

7 June - Blues (Eden Park, Auckland)

10 June - Crusaders (AMI Stadium, Christchurch)

13 June - Highlanders (Forsyth Barr Stadium, Dunedin)

17 June - Maori (International Stadium, Rotorua)

20 June - Chiefs (Waikato Stadium, Hamilton)

24 June - New Zealand (First Test, Eden Park, Auckland)

27 June - Hurricanes (Westpac Stadium, Wellington)

1 July - New Zealand (Second Test, Westpac Stadium, Wellington)

8 July - New Zealand (Third Test, Eden Park, Auckland)

wayne wrote:

Scottrf wrote:The idea that you can get a consensus on a lineup is a fantasy land. What he means is that the most influential person got their way, or the resistance tired.

Why not go and have a look at the podcast then, because that is what he said.
Moron

For ease of speaking. Moron.

beshocked wrote:

wayne wrote:

beshocked wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Obviously Im not saying the draw was disappointing but I reckon the Lions forwards were dominated overall in all three tests although obviously they had their moments where they got on top which turned out to be enough.

You have to look at the context. The Lions is a thrown together pack and despite being down in statistics like territory and position they held their own.

NZ were expected to blow Lions away and they didn't - the pack must get a lot of credit for that because the pack is the platform.

It's about resilience, it's about putting in the hard yards and putting NZ under pressure. Forcing the errors. Taking the fight to NZ.

NZ are used to winning yet the Lions stubbornly refused to back down.


Wayne I sincerely doubt Rowntree,Borthwick or Farrell Sr would champion AWJ over let's say Kruis,Launchbury or Lawes or probably Henderson.

The main criticism has been the selection of AWJ - you seriously think Borthwick had the final say?

Gatland is the head coach.

I believe that Borthwick and Farrell Sr would have pushed for the selection of Itoje,George and Mako, whether you agree or not.


If I was going to break down selections I'd say -

Gatland selections - AWJ,Warburton,Faletau
Borthwick selections - Mako,George,Furlong,Itoje, Kruis (1st test)

Farrell Sr selection - Farrell Jr.

I think there was an element of bias yes.

Beshocked I was being a little bit sly with that question, because if you bothered to watch the BBC 5LIVE programme in the lead up to the first test, during it there was a podcast with Sir Ian McGeechan and he was asked how they came to picking the Team for each Test, did you select it, or did each of you fetch your own Team written down and go from there. His answer was NEITHER we went through each player for each position and we carried on until there was a consensus, he said the last time he was the man in charge that was the format and the same happened in 2013. So I would bet a pound to a penny the same happened on this Tour. Because if it was any different do you think the likes of Howley, Jenkins, Farrell and Rowntree would return after having that exposure in 2013.

So the success or failure was a collaborative effort, with obviously Gatland getting the Lions share, because he brought the Team together.  

Yes it might be a collaborative effort but of course certain people will champion certain players.

I expect Gatland's choice was AWJ but as a compromise he promoted Itoje after the 1st test.

Gatland is the head coach ultimately it's his final decision but doesn't mean everyone agreed with him on everything.

Well said scottrf.

As I say I find it hard to believe Borthwick would really want AWJ to start ahead of the likes of Kruis or Lawes.[/quote

Beshocked you NEVER change, when you used to talk about Saracens beating Ospreys, you always used to only mention the Q/F at Vicarage Rd and then the Pool games a few years ago, you NEVER mentioned the hammering we gave you at CAP in the Anglo Welsh 2 weeks before hand.
You know what they say Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics.

Edit, Beshocked the pack that played against Crusaders was either identical or perhaps 1 change to the first Test team, you say Borthwick wouldn't have selected AWJ. How many lineouts (which is Borthwicks expertise) did he lose in the Test series? Apparently the selection meeting for the First Test was a short 2 hours, so not much arguing then

Wayne do you seriously think an Anglo Welsh cup game is comparable to a HC QF?

If I so I think that's hilarious - we won the big game, you won the insignificant one.

I went to both games - you were good in the LV Cup game but then again you were the galacticos at the time, we were the underdogs.

You were high flying at the time with numerous Welsh internationals plus Marshall, we had an one legged Hill in one his last games for the club - it was backs against the wall stuff.

On Gatland vs Borthwick -


I can imagine the conversation -

Borthwick - Hey boss, I think it'd be great to start an all English 2nd row. Lawes has been in great form this season, Kruis is our lineout general, Itoje is very talented and big match player.

Gatland - Nah,AWJ has experience. He must start.

Borthwick - Okay boss. Though I still think at least one should start.

Gatland - Sure but AWJ must start. He has experience.


After 2nd test -


Gatland - Right lads, the 2nd row partnership didn't go well, Kruis needs dropping.

Borthwick - Kruis ran the lineout well though.

Gatland - AWJ must start, he has experience.

Borthwick - Okay boss, can we at least start Itoje this week?

Gatland - Sure but AWJ must start, he has experience.


After 2nd test

Gatland - See I was right to start AWJ, he has experience.

Borthwick - I thought Itoje played well boss.

Gatland - Itoje was alright but it's clear, AWJ must start the 3rd test, he has experience.

After 3rd test-

Gatland - See, I was right to start AWJ, he has experience.

Borthwick - Sigh.... yes boss.... AWJ was right to start.....



That's how Gatland would have worn down Borthwick.

You forgot passion

Or for wayne - PASSION. FACT

beshocked wrote:Wayne do you seriously think an Anglo Welsh cup game is comparable to a HC QF?

If I so I think that's hilarious - we won the big game, you won the insignificant one.

I went to both games - you were good in the LV Cup game but then again you were the galacticos at the time, we were the underdogs.

You were high flying at the time with numerous Welsh internationals plus Marshall, we had an one legged Hill in one his last games for the club - it was backs against the wall stuff.

On Gatland vs Borthwick -


I can imagine the conversation -

Borthwick - Hey boss, I think it'd be great to start an all English 2nd row. Lawes has been in great form this season, Kruis is our lineout general, Itoje is very talented and big match player.

Gatland - Nah,AWJ has experience. He must start.

Borthwick - Okay boss. Though I still think at least one should start.

Gatland - Sure but AWJ must start. He has experience.


After 2nd test -


Gatland - Right lads, the 2nd row partnership didn't go well, Kruis needs dropping.

Borthwick - Kruis ran the lineout well though.

Gatland - AWJ must start, he has experience.

Borthwick - Okay boss, can we at least start Itoje this week?

Gatland - Sure but AWJ must start, he has experience.


After 2nd test

Gatland - See I was right to start AWJ, he has experience.

Borthwick - I thought Itoje played well boss.

Gatland - Itoje was alright but it's clear, AWJ must start the 3rd test, he has experience.

After 3rd test-

Gatland - See, I was right to start AWJ, he has experience.

Borthwick - Sigh.... yes boss.... AWJ was right to start.....



That's how Gatland would have worn down Borthwick.

Nah, that would be the level of conversation that you've had many times on here with the likes Sergeant Pooley, it would be a far higher level of expertise.

As for the Anglo Welsh, with the English winner of that competition at that time qualifying for the following seasons HC, it wasn't the non entity you're trying to put across, it isn't at the level of the HC, totally agree, yet both teams were basically the same 2 weeks later, yes with the excellent Hill the difference.

wayne to me personally it wasn't that big a game.


of course you'll want to talk up the significance of the match you won. If you noticed I've been very annoyed about significant matches lost. Sometimes excessively but that match wasn't one for me.

beshocked wrote:wayne to me personally it wasn't that big a game.


of course you'll want to talk up the significance of the match you won. If you noticed I've been very annoyed about significant matches lost. Sometimes excessively but that match wasn't one for me.

Beshocked I've only been to support the Ospreys at the Liberty, the Principality Stadium for Judgement Day, this past season to Rodney Parade when I won a ticket in a draw and Vicarage Rd, they were all big deals for me, Sorry I don't believe you. I bet it was at the time.

wayne wrote:

beshocked wrote:wayne to me personally it wasn't that big a game.


of course you'll want to talk up the significance of the match you won. If you noticed I've been very annoyed about significant matches lost. Sometimes excessively but that match wasn't one for me.

Beshocked I've only been to support the Ospreys at the Liberty, the Principality Stadium for Judgement Day, this past season to Rodney Parade when I won a ticket in a draw and Vicarage Rd, they were all big deals for me, Sorry I don't believe you. I bet it was at the time.

If we had lost both then yes but by winning in the HC vs Ospreys, it effectively erased the loss.

I was more upset about the loss to Munster in the semis rather than being knocked out of the LV Cup.

beshocked wrote:

wayne wrote:

beshocked wrote:wayne to me personally it wasn't that big a game.


of course you'll want to talk up the significance of the match you won. If you noticed I've been very annoyed about significant matches lost. Sometimes excessively but that match wasn't one for me.

Beshocked I've only been to support the Ospreys at the Liberty, the Principality Stadium for Judgement Day, this past season to Rodney Parade when I won a ticket in a draw and Vicarage Rd, they were all big deals for me, Sorry I don't believe you. I bet it was at the time.

If we had lost both then yes but by winning in the HC vs Ospreys, it effectively erased the loss.

I was more upset about the loss to Munster in the semis rather than being knocked out of the LV Cup.

Well of course you would be more upset losing a HC Semi final, compared to a LV Semi, I've already admitted that the first overshadows the second, but the disparaging remarks you made about the LV, when as I said the English winner automatically qualified for the following seasons HC, you are normally a pretty decent poster, that was beneath you. I expected no better from the clowns that joined in on our debate, they've both been doing the same on here for months, yet not from you.