Maori All Blacks v British & Irish Lions, 17 June

by **George Carlin** Tue 13 Jun 2017, 3:27 pm

First topic message reminder :

Maori All Blacks v British & Irish Lions, 17 June - Page 3 Maori-10

Maori All Blacks v British & Irish Lions, 17 June - Page 3 Lions_10

Maori All Blacks v British & Irish Lions
17 June 2017
KO: 19:35 NZST (8.35am BST)
Rotorua International Stadium, Rotorua

Live on Sky Sports, Sky Sports HD and SkyGo

Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Touch judges: [tbc]
TMO: [tbc]

A. FORM:

Played 8, Maori won 1, Lions won 7

Recently:

2005-06-11
NZ Maori 19 - 13 British and Irish Lions

1993-05-29
NZ Maori 20 - 24 British and Irish Lions

1977-07-13
NZ Maori 19 - 22 British and Irish Lions

B. TEAMS:

Maori All Blacks
J Lowe; N Milner-Skudder, M Proctor, C Ngatai, R Ioane; D McKenzie, T Kerr-Barlow; K Hames, A Dixon (capt), B May, J Wheeler, T Franklin, A Ioane, E Dixon, L Messam.

Replacements: H Elliot, C Eves, M Renata, L Price, K Pryor, B Hall, I West, R Thompson.

British & Irish Lions
L Halfpenny (Wales); A Watson (England), J Davies (Wales), B Te'o (England), G North (Wales); J Sexton, C Murray (both Ireland); M Vunipola, J George (both England), T Furlong (Ireland), M Itoje, G Kruis (both England), P O'Mahony (capt, Ireland), S O'Brien (Ireland), T Faletau (Wales).

Replacements: K Owens (Wales), J McGrath (Ireland), K Sinckler (England), I Henderson (Ireland), S Warburton (Wales), G Laidlaw (Scotland), D Biggar (Wales), E Daly (England).

C. PREVIEW

by eirebilly Thu 15 Jun 2017, 11:42 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Henshaw is a class player but he's not been at his best on this tour - maybe because he's only been used as a Jamie Roberts style bosh merchant?

He gets used like that by Schmidt as well to be fair. He was so much better and more comfortable when playing 13 I feel.

by Scottrf Thu 15 Jun 2017, 11:46 am

I can't think of a single thing Henshaw has done to be honest. In one game I think Noholo has a better highlight reel than all of our backs the whole tour.

by cascough Thu 15 Jun 2017, 11:56 am

rapidsnowman wrote:My response was in answer to mikey's claim they were the worst midfield since Tindall and Noon.

Obviously they aren't that bad if they helped beat the all Blacks.

Payne had a poor game at full back. He was doing much better in the centre before he went off.

No one is suggesting he should play in the tests. Rodders point (i think) was Warbs is not the best option in the back row and shouldn't be guaranteed a start.

He butchered two tries.

by cascough Thu 15 Jun 2017, 11:58 am

Scottrf wrote:I can't think of a single thing Henshaw has done to be honest. In one game I think Noholo has a better highlight reel than all of our backs the whole tour.

He put a couple of nice kicks in behind in his first game and was superb in scramble defence against the Highlanders.

He's looked pretty blunt in attack though I'll grant you.

by **RDW** Thu 15 Jun 2017, 12:00 pm

cascough wrote:
Scottrf wrote:I can't think of a single thing Henshaw has done to be honest. In one game I think Noholo has a better highlight reel than all of our backs the whole tour.

He put a couple of nice kicks in behind in his first game and was superb in scramble defence against the Highlanders.

He's looked pretty blunt in attack though I'll grant you.

He's had plenty company in that regard!

by eirebilly Thu 15 Jun 2017, 12:01 pm

cascough wrote:
rapidsnowman wrote:My response was in answer to mikey's claim they were the worst midfield since Tindall and Noon.

Obviously they aren't that bad if they helped beat the all Blacks.

Payne had a poor game at full back. He was doing much better in the centre before he went off.

No one is suggesting he should play in the tests. Rodders point (i think) was Warbs is not the best option in the back row and shouldn't be guaranteed a start.

He butchered two tries.

That is a bit harsh to say. The attempt in the corner was a great cover tackle (ok ball in wrong hand but not sure he would have made it anyways) and he did drop a pass from Sinckler that he really should have taken (if you mean that chance) but he hardly butchered those...

Playing from 13, he organised the defensive lines very well and he was a focal point in the attacks and his absence was noticeable after he went off.

by mikey_dragon Thu 15 Jun 2017, 12:01 pm

rapidsnowman wrote:
mikey dragon wrote:When you say irrelevant players guys like Henshaw and Payne spring to mind. Worst midfield since Tindall and Noon.

And yet they were the mid field in the last team to beat NZ

I've been Reading comments from Irish here and there thinking it's their divine right to have 15 Irishmen in the team because they beat the ABs and it's getting tiresome now. The fact of the matter is you haven't been that good since, even Wales coached by Howley stuffed you. Most of your players haven't performed on this tour and Henshaw/Payne is the worst midfield I've seen the Lions put out. Not sure you can even blame Gatland or Howley for them dropping balls but it's still funny to see all of you try. If that crap midfield was Welsh you would all be on here baying for blood as usual.

by Scottrf Thu 15 Jun 2017, 12:02 pm

eirebilly wrote:That is a bit harsh to say. The attempt in the corner was a great cover tackle (ok ball in wrong hand but not sure he would have made it anyways) and he did drop a pass from Sinckler that he really should have taken (if you mean that chance) but he hardly butchered those...

I thought the second he meant was when he kicked the ball dead - that was a decent chance.

by eirebilly Thu 15 Jun 2017, 12:04 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
rapidsnowman wrote:
mikey dragon wrote:When you say irrelevant players guys like Henshaw and Payne spring to mind. Worst midfield since Tindall and Noon.

And yet they were the mid field in the last team to beat NZ

I've been Reading comments from Irish here and there thinking it's their divine right to have 15 Irishmen in the team because they beat the ABs and it's getting tiresome now. The fact of the matter is you haven't been that good since, even Wales coached by Howley stuffed you. Most of your players haven't performed on this tour and Henshaw/Payne is the worst midfield I've seen the Lions put out. Not sure you can even blame Gatland or Howley for them dropping balls but it's still funny to see all of you try. If that crap midfield was Welsh you would all be on here baying for blood as usual.

Tighten up there mikey. I think most Irish posters have been very balanced in their views on Irish performances in the Lions...

by cascough Thu 15 Jun 2017, 12:05 pm

Scottrf wrote:
eirebilly wrote:That is a bit harsh to say. The attempt in the corner was a great cover tackle (ok ball in wrong hand but not sure he would have made it anyways) and he did drop a pass from Sinckler that he really should have taken (if you mean that chance) but he hardly butchered those...
I thought the second he meant was when he kicked the ball dead - that was a decent chance.

It was.

He stood on the ball first then in digging it out, fluffed his lines. The chance in the corner just has to be taken. That's not to say it was straightforward but an international FB or OC should expect to come in for criticism having missed that.

by eirebilly Thu 15 Jun 2017, 12:06 pm

Scottrf wrote:
eirebilly wrote:That is a bit harsh to say. The attempt in the corner was a great cover tackle (ok ball in wrong hand but not sure he would have made it anyways) and he did drop a pass from Sinckler that he really should have taken (if you mean that chance) but he hardly butchered those...
I thought the second he meant was when he kicked the ball dead - that was a decent chance.

Aha, fair dues on that one then. It was strange from him as he usually reads the game very well. I thought at the time that he was lucky to get selected for the tour and I still think that.

by cascough Thu 15 Jun 2017, 12:09 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
rapidsnowman wrote:
mikey dragon wrote:When you say irrelevant players guys like Henshaw and Payne spring to mind. Worst midfield since Tindall and Noon.

And yet they were the mid field in the last team to beat NZ

I've been Reading comments from Irish here and there thinking it's their divine right to have 15 Irishmen in the team because they beat the ABs and it's getting tiresome now. The fact of the matter is you haven't been that good since, even Wales coached by Howley stuffed you. Most of your players haven't performed on this tour and Henshaw/Payne is the worst midfield I've seen the Lions put out. Not sure you can even blame Gatland or Howley for them dropping balls but it's still funny to see all of you try. If that crap midfield was Welsh you would all be on here baying for blood as usual.

I'm not bothered tbh. A lion is a lion. If Gatland picked a team that had 15 players in that had beaten NZ and cited that as the reason, I'd get behind them. If he picked a team that had 15 players in from Eng because they have been the best team in the NH over the last 18 months, I could appreciate that too.

As long as there are reasons, a lion is lion. Even if it's not the team I'd pick.

by Scottrf Thu 15 Jun 2017, 12:10 pm

Every player in the backline has been criticised pretty much. Yet if they are Welsh it's for being Welsh Rolling Eyes

Tiresome.

by Hammersmith harrier Thu 15 Jun 2017, 12:12 pm

The Welsh really are a tiresome bunch.

by mikey_dragon Thu 15 Jun 2017, 12:15 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:The Welsh really are a tiresome bunch.

yeah there we go, more proof from one of the usual suspects. Slag off anything Welsh and blame them when things go wrong - feels a bit like 2013. The lack of unity of this forum from the English is just sickening. Worst fans in world rugby.

by rapidsnowman Thu 15 Jun 2017, 12:18 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:I've been Reading comments from Irish here and there thinking it's their divine right to have 15 Irishmen in the team because they beat the ABs and it's getting tiresome now. The fact of the matter is you haven't been that good since, even Wales coached by Howley stuffed you. Most of your players haven't performed on this tour and Henshaw/Payne is the worst midfield I've seen the Lions put out. Not sure you can even blame Gatland or Howley for them dropping balls but it's still funny to see all of you try. If that crap midfield was Welsh you would all be on here baying for blood as usual.

Wow - you seem very upset!

I've barely made a comment since the Tour started.
Many Irish, English and Scots expressed surprise at the number of Welsh players selected to tour relative to their performance in 6 Nations.

I don't think there are any Irish suggesting we should have had more representation on this tour - perhaps you can dig that out for us.

In fact several regular Irish posters (of the back of a relatively disappointing 6 nations) expressed surprise we had so much representation.

My response was to the fact you thought Henshaw/Payne to be useless in midfield - I merely pointed out that 7 months ago they contributed to our first ever win over NZ.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 15 Jun 2017, 12:19 pm

Murray - little threat ball in hand
Webb - kicking too far
Laidlaw - Too slow
Sexton - General lack of form
Farrell - missing key kicks
Biggar - too deep and poor passing
Te'o - Poor passing, failure to offload
Henshaw - Largely anonymous
Payne - Failure to take chances, and missed tackles
Joseph - General lack of spark and missed tackles
Davies - Poor passing, dropping balls when clear
Daly - largely anonymous
North - Has he played yet?
Williams - Reckless and lack of ny spark
Watson - lazy and unable to kick
Nowell - too slow
Seymour - largely ineffectual
1/2p - Stodgy

There we go, anyone missed?

by BamBam Thu 15 Jun 2017, 12:20 pm

mikey_dragon wrote: The lack of unity of this forum from the English is just sickening. Worst fans in world rugby.

yeah there we go, more proof from one of the usual suspects. Slag off anything English and blame them when things go wrong - feels a bit like 2013.

by Hammersmith harrier Thu 15 Jun 2017, 12:21 pm

Stop being a cretin Mikey.

The backline is in general crap and that includes Te'o and an off form Jonny Sexton, nothing about nationality but you can't see past it for some reason. I would start McGrath instead of Mako too because he's not good in the set piece and his dynamic play doesn't suit a team with that Midfield.

I'm really not seeing what you and Griff see with regards to the Irish fans on here, they seem the most realistic out of everyone.

by rapidsnowman Thu 15 Jun 2017, 12:21 pm

I've been Reading comments from Irish here and there thinking it's their divine right to have 15 Irishmen in the team because they beat the ABs and it's getting tiresome now.

The lack of unity of this forum from the English is just sickening. Worst fans in world rugby.

Scots next for a full house!

by mikey_dragon Thu 15 Jun 2017, 12:24 pm

BamBam wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote: The lack of unity of this forum from the English is just sickening. Worst fans in world rugby.

yeah there we go, more proof from one of the usual suspects. Slag off anything English and blame them when things go wrong - feels a bit like 2013.

What you on? I've been championing England players for this team for months! Although I have alluded to he fact that their fans didn't bat an eye-lid as the hyped Nowell played himself out of contention, must have been too busy hating on AWJ Rolling Eyes

by **RDW** Thu 15 Jun 2017, 12:25 pm

This kind of chat is becoming incredibly tiresome as it happens every day, several times a day.

Do we seriously need to have this for the rest of the tour? Rolling Eyes

by mikey_dragon Thu 15 Jun 2017, 12:26 pm

rapidsnowman wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:I've been Reading comments from Irish here and there thinking it's their divine right to have 15 Irishmen in the team because they beat the ABs and it's getting tiresome now. The fact of the matter is you haven't been that good since, even Wales coached by Howley stuffed you. Most of your players haven't performed on this tour and Henshaw/Payne is the worst midfield I've seen the Lions put out. Not sure you can even blame Gatland or Howley for them dropping balls but it's still funny to see all of you try. If that crap midfield was Welsh you would all be on here baying for blood as usual.

Wow - you seem very upset!

I've barely made a comment since the Tour started.
Many Irish, English and Scots expressed surprise at the number of Welsh players selected to tour relative to their performance in 6 Nations.

I don't think there are any Irish suggesting we should have had more representation on this tour - perhaps you can dig that out for us.

In fact several regular Irish posters (of the back of a relatively disappointing 6 nations) expressed surprise we had so much representation.

My response was to the fact you thought Henshaw/Payne to be useless in midfield - I merely pointed out that 7 months ago they contributed to our first ever win over NZ.

Here and there, I said. It's been rare on this forum.

by cascough Thu 15 Jun 2017, 12:28 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
BamBam wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote: The lack of unity of this forum from the English is just sickening. Worst fans in world rugby.

yeah there we go, more proof from one of the usual suspects. Slag off anything English and blame them when things go wrong - feels a bit like 2013.

What you on? I've been championing England players for this team for months! Although I have alluded to he fact that their fans didn't bat an eye-lid as the hyped Nowell played himself out of contention, must have been too busy hating on AWJ

I haven't seen anyone suggesting Nowell should get a test spot?

by mikey_dragon Thu 15 Jun 2017, 12:29 pm

cascough wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
BamBam wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote: The lack of unity of this forum from the English is just sickening. Worst fans in world rugby.

yeah there we go, more proof from one of the usual suspects. Slag off anything English and blame them when things go wrong - feels a bit like 2013.

What you on? I've been championing England players for this team for months! Although I have alluded to he fact that their fans didn't bat an eye-lid as the hyped Nowell played himself out of contention, must have been too busy hating on AWJ

I haven't seen anyone suggesting Nowell should get a test spot?

Before the tour a few were, but that wasn't my point. Certain factions seem to be avoiding criticising the guy, but have plenty of time to do it against certain players Rolling Eyes

by **LondonTiger** Thu 15 Jun 2017, 12:30 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:This kind of chat is becoming incredibly tiresome as it happens every day, several times a day.

Do we seriously need to have this for the rest of the tour?

Probably

by eirebilly Thu 15 Jun 2017, 12:31 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Murray - little threat ball in hand : True but his kicking game has been very very good
Webb - kicking too far : Has been excellent with his service and been the best attacking 9 so far
Laidlaw - Too slow : Controlling 9, nothing special from him
Sexton - General lack of form : seemed to be carrying an injury but looked better last game, next game a real test
Farrell - missing key kicks : Bit harsh for 1 kick as it was his first touch, been excellent in every other aspect
Biggar - too deep and poor passing : Actually feel he has been the most attacking 10 on tour so far
Te'o - Poor passing, failure to offload : Think he is getting better every game, certainly makes ground with every carry
Henshaw - Largely anonymous : Solid defensively but has offered little in attack
Payne - Failure to take chances, and missed tackles : Runs the defensive line well from midfield but has been generally poor
Joseph - General lack of spark and missed tackles : Has not had the ball enough to show his skillset but when given his chance, took it very well.
Davies - Poor passing, dropping balls when clear : Really have not seen that much of him so far but has looked good when I have seen him
Daly - largely anonymous : Not really given the chance to shine so far as he is not getting the ball enough
North - Has he played yet? : Has been the Lions best defensive winger so far, has had little ball to attack
Williams - Reckless and lack of ny spark : Good player but seems down on confidence after his yellow card
Watson - lazy and unable to kick : think he was very good when he came on at 15
Nowell - too slow : Hits rucks and offers himself up for a lot of carries, needs another game
Seymour - largely ineffectual : not defensively strong but very good in attack and good under the high ball
1/2p - Stodgy : I think he has been very solid so far, not spectacular but not bad

There we go, anyone missed?

Probably took this post too seriously but there are my response LT Very Happy

by **LondonTiger** Thu 15 Jun 2017, 12:33 pm

eirebilly wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Murray - little threat ball in hand : True but his kicking game has been very very good
Webb - kicking too far : Has been excellent with his service and been the best attacking 9 so far
Laidlaw - Too slow : Controlling 9, nothing special from him
Sexton - General lack of form : seemed to be carrying an injury but looked better last game, next game a real test
Farrell - missing key kicks : Bit harsh for 1 kick as it was his first touch, been excellent in every other aspect
Biggar - too deep and poor passing : Actually feel he has been the most attacking 10 on tour so far
Te'o - Poor passing, failure to offload : Think he is getting better every game, certainly makes ground with every carry
Henshaw - Largely anonymous : Solid defensively but has offered little in attack
Payne - Failure to take chances, and missed tackles : Runs the defensive line well from midfield but has been generally poor
Joseph - General lack of spark and missed tackles : Has not had the ball enough to show his skillset but when given his chance, took it very well.
Davies - Poor passing, dropping balls when clear : Really have not seen that much of him so far but has looked good when I have seen him
Daly - largely anonymous : Not really given the chance to shine so far as he is not getting the ball enough
North - Has he played yet? : Has been the Lions best defensive winger so far, has had little ball to attack
Williams - Reckless and lack of ny spark : Good player but seems down on confidence after his yellow card
Watson - lazy and unable to kick : think he was very good when he came on at 15
Nowell - too slow : Hits rucks and offers himself up for a lot of carries, needs another game
Seymour - largely ineffectual : not defensively strong but very good in attack and good under the high ball
1/2p - Stodgy : I think he has been very solid so far, not spectacular but not bad

There we go, anyone missed?

Probably took this post too seriously but there are my response LT

A little half hearted some of those endorsments. Very Happy

by cascough Thu 15 Jun 2017, 12:41 pm

eirebilly wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Murray - little threat ball in hand : True but his kicking game has been very very good
Webb - kicking too far : Has been excellent with his service and been the best attacking 9 so far
Laidlaw - Too slow : Controlling 9, nothing special from him
Sexton - General lack of form : seemed to be carrying an injury but looked better last game, next game a real test
Farrell - missing key kicks : Bit harsh for 1 kick as it was his first touch, been excellent in every other aspect
Biggar - too deep and poor passing : Actually feel he has been the most attacking 10 on tour so far
Te'o - Poor passing, failure to offload : Think he is getting better every game, certainly makes ground with every carry
Henshaw - Largely anonymous : Solid defensively but has offered little in attack
Payne - Failure to take chances, and missed tackles : Runs the defensive line well from midfield but has been generally poor
Joseph - General lack of spark and missed tackles : Has not had the ball enough to show his skillset but when given his chance, took it very well.
Davies - Poor passing, dropping balls when clear : Really have not seen that much of him so far but has looked good when I have seen him
Daly - largely anonymous : Not really given the chance to shine so far as he is not getting the ball enough
North - Has he played yet? : Has been the Lions best defensive winger so far, has had little ball to attack
Williams - Reckless and lack of ny spark : Good player but seems down on confidence after his yellow card
Watson - lazy and unable to kick : think he was very good when he came on at 15
Nowell - too slow : Hits rucks and offers himself up for a lot of carries, needs another game
Seymour - largely ineffectual : not defensively strong but very good in attack and good under the high ball
1/2p - Stodgy : I think he has been very solid so far, not spectacular but not bad

There we go, anyone missed?

Probably took this post too seriously but there are my response LT

Agree with nearly all of that.

Exceptions being...

Webb, whose basics I feel have been the worst of the 3, passing included. However around the fringes he has been absolutely electric. And Davies, who has had what 20 mins? But in that time managed to knock on at a key moment and wasted a great break by panicking and forcing a pass that wasn't on.

I pretty much agree on Biggar although I think his decision making has been questionable. Both he and Farrell have stood really really flat though. It's baffling to me how anyone could say Biggar has been too deep.

by Gooseberry Thu 15 Jun 2017, 12:50 pm

cascough wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
rodders wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Interesting question - if that is the test team would PoM be your test captain? That starting XV is lacking in leadership. Then again I wouldn't propose swapping Itoje for AWJ for extra leadership.

Gat's is trying to be cute here but not really fooling anyone. Warbs will start with SOB or O'Mahoney on the bench. If Warbs isn't fit AWJ will be captain.

Henderson will be in the dirt trackers on Tuesday which will be captained by Best, Laidlaw or Stander.

Itoje will come in on the bench and any blind man and his dog can see that they've been working the Farrell/Sexton 10/12 combo in training, its just whether they start with Teo or not.

Webb will come in on the bench, maybe Liam Williams on the wing as the Lions will plan to huff the ball in the air and chase.

None of this matters a jot to the ABs who will wallop the Lions from pillar to post no matter who Gatland selects where.

This will they won't they pick Warbs nonsense is laughable as Warburton is one of the most irrelevant players on the tour, he shouldn't have made the plane.

When you say irrelevant players guys like Henshaw and Payne spring to mind. Worst midfield since Tindall and Noon.

Errrr I'll have you know that we once lined up against NZ with Erinle and Hipkiss!

...and chances are the Lions will score less and lose by more.

by Gooseberry Thu 15 Jun 2017, 12:56 pm

carpet baboon wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Well are we suprised gaty has picked a dull looking back line. Feel sorry for Watson

Who exactly have they got whos going to add a bit of flair to it?

In the absence of Youngs/Ford Murray/Sexton is the most creative half back combination they have available.
Te'os ball handling is underatted, he spent much of his career as a fly half. His strength is his direct running but he can play football too. What other options at 12 are there that would offer more creativity? Even if he were fit I dont really but Farrell at 12 for the Lions.
OK JD2 could swap for JJ for a bit more pace, but neither is much of a footballer.
North and Halfpenny ...OK neither is exactly the most dynamic and subtle of options to get the best from Watson....but hopefuly he wil be used as the kick returner and get to run from deep at least. With Hogg unavailable theres not many places beyond Halfpenny to go for a fullback.

It is a pretty phyisical Lions backs division but it also has a balance of skills and pace.

Overall I suspect this is close to the current prefered test team (Farrells absence aside), and Gatlands comments back that up. Most interestingly around Warburton who he is now suggesting may not make the test team. If this backrow goes well that really could happen.

I don't think you can play teo and JD together. I'm all for pressing the all blacks force them I to errors, but when you get quick turnover ball you need a back line that can move it wide fast. JD passing is at best erratic.
And as good as teos passing can be he hasn't shown it so far.
I like them Individually but as a partnership I dont see it working. I hope I'm wrong.
Would rather jj at 13. Or henshaw did pretty well outside a hard running bundi. Could work well with teo.

To be honest I think gatland should have picked Scott Williams not JD

Yeah look if Im honest I was just trying to go a whole post without saying something to upset Gwlad but lets be honest the Welsh trio of backs are absolute donkeys. North I just dont get, although being fair on him he has a great try scoring record (except against the All Blacks) so we can overlook that he has no all round skill set or inclination to tackle.

by Guest Thu 15 Jun 2017, 1:11 pm

cascough wrote:
eirebilly wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Murray - little threat ball in hand : True but his kicking game has been very very good
Webb - kicking too far : Has been excellent with his service and been the best attacking 9 so far
Laidlaw - Too slow : Controlling 9, nothing special from him
Sexton - General lack of form : seemed to be carrying an injury but looked better last game, next game a real test
Farrell - missing key kicks : Bit harsh for 1 kick as it was his first touch, been excellent in every other aspect
Biggar - too deep and poor passing : Actually feel he has been the most attacking 10 on tour so far
Te'o - Poor passing, failure to offload : Think he is getting better every game, certainly makes ground with every carry
Henshaw - Largely anonymous : Solid defensively but has offered little in attack
Payne - Failure to take chances, and missed tackles : Runs the defensive line well from midfield but has been generally poor
Joseph - General lack of spark and missed tackles : Has not had the ball enough to show his skillset but when given his chance, took it very well.
Davies - Poor passing, dropping balls when clear : Really have not seen that much of him so far but has looked good when I have seen him
Daly - largely anonymous : Not really given the chance to shine so far as he is not getting the ball enough
North - Has he played yet? : Has been the Lions best defensive winger so far, has had little ball to attack
Williams - Reckless and lack of ny spark : Good player but seems down on confidence after his yellow card
Watson - lazy and unable to kick : think he was very good when he came on at 15
Nowell - too slow : Hits rucks and offers himself up for a lot of carries, needs another game
Seymour - largely ineffectual : not defensively strong but very good in attack and good under the high ball
1/2p - Stodgy : I think he has been very solid so far, not spectacular but not bad

There we go, anyone missed?

Probably took this post too seriously but there are my response LT

Agree with nearly all of that.

Exceptions being...

Webb, whose basics I feel have been the worst of the 3, passing included. However around the fringes he has been absolutely electric. And Davies, who has had what 20 mins? But in that time managed to knock on at a key moment and wasted a great break by panicking and forcing a pass that wasn't on.

I pretty much agree on Biggar although I think his decision making has been questionable. Both he and Farrell have stood really really flat though. It's baffling to me how anyone could say Biggar has been too deep.

Exceptions being the Welsh! Don't let Mikey see this! Run

by **George Carlin** Thu 15 Jun 2017, 1:12 pm

Perhaps we could agree as a collective to gang up on the Belgians instead?

by Cyril Thu 15 Jun 2017, 1:16 pm

George Carlin wrote:Perhaps we could agree as a collective to gang up on the Belgians instead?

They do tend to waffle on a lot.

In your face, Flanders!

by **LondonTiger** Thu 15 Jun 2017, 1:37 pm

Cyril wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Perhaps we could agree as a collective to gang up on the Belgians instead?
They do tend to waffle on a lot.

In your face, Flanders!

Good chocolates though.

by eirebilly Thu 15 Jun 2017, 2:00 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Cyril wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Perhaps we could agree as a collective to gang up on the Belgians instead?
They do tend to waffle on a lot.

In your face, Flanders!

Good chocolates though.

But they eat chips with every meal and their beer makes you forget your name...

by TightHEAD Thu 15 Jun 2017, 2:02 pm

Bish bash bosh ................the Gatland way. Ale

Great night.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 15 Jun 2017, 2:18 pm

eirebilly wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Cyril wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Perhaps we could agree as a collective to gang up on the Belgians instead?
They do tend to waffle on a lot.

In your face, Flanders!

Good chocolates though.

But they eat chips with every meal and their beer makes you forget your name...

1) Chips are good
2) Is that not the point of beer.

However thinking about it, perhaps we should shy away from Belgian Chocolate. After all we would not wish for it to be deified and undroppable. Plus it can be a bit nuts.

so Belgium - what is with those damned Walloons?

by Gooseberry Thu 15 Jun 2017, 2:27 pm

George Carlin wrote:Perhaps we could agree as a collective to gang up on the Belgians instead?

If the All Blacks could do this instead of bullying the Lions that would be dandy

by robbo277 Thu 15 Jun 2017, 2:38 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
cascough wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
BamBam wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote: The lack of unity of this forum from the English is just sickening. Worst fans in world rugby.

yeah there we go, more proof from one of the usual suspects. Slag off anything English and blame them when things go wrong - feels a bit like 2013.

What you on? I've been championing England players for this team for months! Although I have alluded to he fact that their fans didn't bat an eye-lid as the hyped Nowell played himself out of contention, must have been too busy hating on AWJ

I haven't seen anyone suggesting Nowell should get a test spot?

Before the tour a few were, but that wasn't my point. Certain factions seem to be avoiding criticising the guy, but have plenty of time to do it against certain players

Feel free to criticise him, it's called a discussion. Have you criticised him and had someone vehemently disagree?

Because of the coach, Jones was the front-runner for a test spot. Nowell never was a front runner. Some people may have said they were excited to see him picked and thought he might have a shot at the test team, but he was never seen as the number one pick.

Jones didn't have any form before the tour, so the worry is Jones will still be picked in the team, despite not hitting the required levels in the warm-ups and he'll fail to hit the required level in the test.

If Nowell has failed to live up to expectations and his form in the lead-up, I think everyone would agree that he won't be picked, so it merits less discussion.

by mikey_dragon Thu 15 Jun 2017, 5:04 pm

You're still missing the point, English players are exempt from criticism, apparently. AWJ merited a place on tour, but Launchbury should have went in place of Henderson.

by carpet baboon Thu 15 Jun 2017, 5:14 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:You're still missing the point, English players are exempt from criticism, apparently. AWJ merited a place on tour, but Launchbury should have went in place of Henderson.

Are they? Pretty sure I have criticised English and welsh, Irish too.

by hugehandoff Thu 15 Jun 2017, 5:18 pm

We will lose to the All Blacks because their skill levels are simply higher. But I do think we can still win the 1st test and make it a competitive series as the All Blacks will be at their most vulnerable early on. Several of their stars may be undercooked. The Lions on the other hand will be good to go, but may struggle with fatigue as the series continues. AWJ and Kruis are looking good in the engine room and with Itoje to come off the bench that provides real strength. Srums need to steady themselves which I am sure they will, but the backs somehow need to vastly improve. Who would have predicted Teo and Davies as the potential starting combo. But at least chances are being created.

We are up against it and I for one will be rooting for the team on Sat morning regardless of what nationality they are. Save the bickering for the post tour savage debrief.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Thu 15 Jun 2017, 5:47 pm

hugehandoff wrote:We will lose to the All Blacks because their skill levels are simply higher. But I do think we can still win the 1st test and make it a competitive series as the All Blacks will be at their most vulnerable early on. Several of their stars may be undercooked. The Lions on the other hand will be good to go, but may struggle with fatigue as the series continues. AWJ and Kruis are looking good in the engine room and with Itoje to come off the bench that provides real strength. Srums need to steady themselves which I am sure they will, but the backs somehow need to vastly improve. Who would have predicted Teo and Davies as the potential starting combo. But at least chances are being created.

We are up against it and I for one will be rooting for the team on Sat morning regardless of what nationality they are. Save the bickering for the post tour savage debrief.

Now now, you're ruining Mikey's perfectly good strawman argument. warning

In any case, according to Steve Hansen's spies (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11876869) Gatland's about to go SCW & give up on the dirt trackers (anyone that loses to a Highlanders team with 9 players out clearly isn't going to cut it in the tests) and call up another 5 players and run 2 squads for the rest of the tour. There's got to be a mass of bickering over the likely callups Wink

, and whether Gats should've told the players before it leaked. On the plus side for the Lions it gives Gats the change to leave Howley in charge of the dirt trackers and prevent further damage to the main set of backs.

Maori All Blacks v British & Irish Lions, 17 June - Page 3 1347041234

Maori All Blacks v British & Irish Lions, 17 June - Page 3 1347041234

by Gooseberry Thu 15 Jun 2017, 8:21 pm

I dunno why Mikey is slagging the English for not showing unity when we are all quite in agreement that Warburton was a terrible pick as captain

by aucklandlaurie Thu 15 Jun 2017, 8:56 pm

England at least could have contributed to the Lions by sending their captain along.

by Guest Thu 15 Jun 2017, 10:19 pm

I know I'm in danger of having massive egg on my face here if we end up getting a spanking, but does anyone else think that, in a way, the Maori team will face similar challenges to the Lions in terms of being thrown together and not having played together much? I know their basic skills are probably much better than ours as NZ players are just that much better generally. But I'm hopeful that some of the reasons why the Lions have perhaps struggled against relatively settled club sides e.g. our lack of familiarity with each other, new combos, learning new calls, new game plan, etc., might also be an issue for the Maori too?

So I'm expecting the Maori to perhaps not be as 'slick' as some of the club sides, but will obviously be a huge challenge.

Sod's law it will be a 50 point drubbing now I've cursed it!

by **RDW** Thu 15 Jun 2017, 10:23 pm

Griff wrote:I know I'm in danger of having massive egg on my face here if we end up getting a spanking, but does anyone else think that, in a way, the Maori team will face similar challenges to the Lions in terms of being thrown together and not having played together much? I know their basic skills are probably much better than ours as NZ players are just that much better generally. But I'm hopeful that some of the reasons why the Lions have perhaps struggled against relatively settled club sides e.g. our lack of familiarity with each other, new combos, learning new calls, new game plan, etc., might also be an issue for the Maori too?

So I'm expecting the Maori to perhaps not be as 'slick' as some of the club sides, but will obviously be a huge challenge.

Sod's law it will be a 50 point drubbing now I've cursed it!

What you say is true, and is technically the case for the main event next week too. Problem is we're hardly a battle hardened unit in comparison! Combine the ABs superior skillet and home advantage and that will certainly more than make up for their rustiness as a team.

I do think some of the SR sides will pose a sterner test than the Maori though.

by Guest Thu 15 Jun 2017, 10:39 pm

Out of consideration for Lions fans I just hope the Maori ABs don't perform yet another haka before the game on Saturday in Rotorua one of the spiritual homes of Maoridom in NZ. The poor Lions fans have already seen enough hakas. It's time to peg it back a bit and this Maori ABs game is the time to show restraint and not show them any respect by not performing one.

by Scottrf Thu 15 Jun 2017, 10:43 pm

I think I speak for all privelidged white boys when I say I will allow them this one.

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