Maori All Blacks v British & Irish Lions, 17 June

First topic message reminder :

Maori All Blacks v British & Irish Lions
17 June 2017
KO: 19:35 NZST (8.35am BST)
Rotorua International Stadium, Rotorua

Live on Sky Sports, Sky Sports HD and SkyGo

Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Touch judges: [tbc]
TMO: [tbc]

A. FORM:

Played 8, Maori won 1, Lions won 7

Recently:

2005-06-11
NZ Maori 19 - 13 British and Irish Lions

1993-05-29
NZ Maori 20 - 24 British and Irish Lions

1977-07-13
NZ Maori 19 - 22 British and Irish Lions

B. TEAMS:

Maori All Blacks 
J Lowe; N Milner-Skudder, M Proctor, C Ngatai, R Ioane; D McKenzie, T Kerr-Barlow; K Hames, A Dixon (capt), B May, J Wheeler, T Franklin, A Ioane, E Dixon, L Messam.

Replacements: H Elliot, C Eves, M Renata, L Price, K Pryor, B Hall, I West, R Thompson.

British & Irish Lions
L Halfpenny (Wales); A Watson (England), J Davies (Wales), B Te'o (England), G North (Wales); J Sexton, C Murray (both Ireland); M Vunipola, J George (both England), T Furlong (Ireland), M Itoje, G Kruis (both England), P O'Mahony (capt, Ireland), S O'Brien (Ireland), T Faletau (Wales).

Replacements: K Owens (Wales), J McGrath (Ireland), K Sinckler (England), I Henderson (Ireland), S Warburton (Wales), G Laidlaw (Scotland), D Biggar (Wales), E Daly (England).

C. PREVIEW

So many moves die in this midfield.

Yeah 7.5, the Lions are all over this game but they can't carve up

Cmon Maori, lets go. Got em into a false sense of security. Twenty minutes to go.

Kia Kaha!

SOB and Itoje have played themselves into the starting 4 and 7 jerseys, anything else and we'll have proof of what everyone expected

BamBam wrote:SOB and Itoje have played themselves into the starting 4 and 7 jerseys, anything else and we'll have proof of what everyone expected

Add POM to 6 and potential captain as well.

ebop wrote:Yeah 7.5, the Lions are all over this game but they can't carve up

Yes we're just not used to sides with so much advantage doing so little. ABs would have put 8 or 9 tries on with that quality of posession.

It's a good win yet at the same time a bad omen for next week.

I'd keep that pack pretty much the way it is, with McGrath possibly starting at 1.

Agreed, but he was always the favourite to start at 6 for me

Another completely high tackle there. Clown Peyper shouts "fine".

BamBam wrote:SOB and Itoje have played themselves into the starting 4 and 7 jerseys, anything else and we'll have proof of what everyone expected

SOB has been poor, lost possession a few times and little impact in the breakdown.

How do people think Sexton played tonight? He had a few individual sparks but I was not that overly impressed with him. To me he is still not quite igniting the backs.

Scottrf wrote:

BamBam wrote:SOB and Itoje have played themselves into the starting 4 and 7 jerseys, anything else and we'll have proof of what everyone expected

SOB has been poor, lost possession a few times and little impact in the breakdown.

The 4 turnovers excluded of course...

eirebilly wrote:How do people think Sexton played tonight? He had a few individual sparks but I was not that overly impressed with him. To me he is still not quite igniting the backs.

Half backs dominated the territory IMO. Not electric but controlled which is how we can win.

eirebilly wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

BamBam wrote:SOB and Itoje have played themselves into the starting 4 and 7 jerseys, anything else and we'll have proof of what everyone expected

SOB has been poor, lost possession a few times and little impact in the breakdown.

The 4 turnovers excluded of course...

Did he really? Take that back if so.

Are Sky being serious still considering AWJ?

Yeah I saw a few turnovers from SOB and some solid defence and carries

Henderson is a great carrier for a lock.

Scottrf wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

BamBam wrote:SOB and Itoje have played themselves into the starting 4 and 7 jerseys, anything else and we'll have proof of what everyone expected

SOB has been poor, lost possession a few times and little impact in the breakdown.

The 4 turnovers excluded of course...

Did he really? Take that back if so.

Yeah, he has made them at crucial moments as well. Actually been very impressed with him today.

Scottrf wrote:Henderson is a great carrier for a lock.

Hence the great debate over whether he should be at 6 or lock. I say lock.

So a much improved Lions performance??

RDW_Scotland wrote:Are Sky being serious still considering AWJ?

I would stick with the Kruis Itoje pairing. Kruis has not been at his best today but they do compliment each other well. Those two and POM in the line out dominate set plays.

yappysnap wrote:So a much improved Lions performance??

Totally reliant on the pack and big ball carriers. If you want good attacking rugby, forget it.

Well done Lions, kinda thought they'd win against a put together side but felt obliged to support them like the wind tonight.

Lions way too good in all areas and bar some finishing that could be better I think Gats has got a good balance overall so far and has got them in probably as good a position than anyone could for next week.

The impressive thing is the Lions got stronger as the match went on and although I think the first test will go to the ABs based on what I've seen so far, it could be a close affair.

Great stuff Lions, and fans should be feeling pretty good about now,

SOB appears to have fingers near the eyes there, that could have caused the fracas...

Great score Go Gatland!

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

yappysnap wrote:So a much improved Lions performance??

Totally reliant on the pack and big ball carriers. If you want good attacking rugby, forget it.

Ah, fair enough. By the sounds of it the pack was very good though, and the weather probably didn't help.

Yeah good win Lions, very solid tonight

eirebilly wrote:SOB appears to have fingers near the eyes there, that could have caused the fracas...

Talksport comms picked up SOB clear as day saying "F king elbow in the face ref"

A good performance, happy with that. 1st phase attack needs improving though.

Breadvan wrote:

eirebilly wrote:SOB appears to have fingers near the eyes there, that could have caused the fracas...

Talksport comms picked up SOB clear as day saying "F king elbow in the face ref"

I saw on slow motion that SOB did have his hand around the face. It could still be a citing.

Players who I think assured themselves of a test berth tonight that I felt were not definite.


06 : POM (captain as Warburton will not start)
07 : SOB
12 : Te'o
13 : Davies
15 : Halfpenny

Not a game for the wingers but I feel that Watson had a decent shift but North was not so good. Still very open.

Well a good win against a good side, but something still seems to be lacking and I am finding it hard to get excited about the tests. Unfortunately we are not going to win any of them by just having a strong pack but not taking any of our chances.

Good performance from the Lions, especially the second half. Maoris are a scratch side, and it showed, but they were exposed by the Lions defence which was very strong.

Think all the pack had a good game, and it had a good balance to it, thinking that could well be the starting pack next week. Sexton had some very nice touches in the first half, which is a relief, and Murray looks just fine. Davies played well, Te'o made some big runs, but I'm not entirely convinced by them as a partnership, didn't really bring the back three into the game at all (albeit tricky conditions).

Still don't think this gameplan is enough to beat NZ, but at least they seem to be coming together as a team now.

eirebilly wrote:

Breadvan wrote:

eirebilly wrote:SOB appears to have fingers near the eyes there, that could have caused the fracas...

Talksport comms picked up SOB clear as day saying "F king elbow in the face ref"

I saw on slow motion that SOB did have his hand around the face. It could still be a citing.

Lowe clearly dropped a knee into Biggar, how much impact he made is hard to tell

Doesn't bode well for the Lion that Peyper lets the Maoris away with so much close to the line without carding them as they won't get as many opportunities close to the line and if the ABs do the same it'll kill the Lions

On one angle it looks like sob has his hand in the face but the second angle parallel to touchline shows his was gripping a hand then clear daylight between hand and head.

No 7&1/2 wrote:On one angle it looks like sob has his hand in the face but the second angle parallel to touchline shows his was gripping a hand then clear daylight between hand and head.

Cheers bud, only saw the one angle.

I guess Gatlands Lions are going for 2nd place, will be an improvement on 5th place. Warrenball doesn't work against these guys.

TightHEAD wrote:I guess Gatlands Lions are going for 2nd place, will be an improvement on 5th place. Warrenball doesn't work against these guys.

32-10 says that it works.

I asked the question earlier in the thread about whether the Maori would face the same difficulties as the Lions in terms of being thrown together, and would therefore not be as good as the club sides we've faced, and I think this game as shown that to be the case. Lions improving with more time together. Maori would probably be better if they were playing again next week, and better again the week after, etc.

marty2086 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Breadvan wrote:

eirebilly wrote:SOB appears to have fingers near the eyes there, that could have caused the fracas...

Talksport comms picked up SOB clear as day saying "F king elbow in the face ref"

I saw on slow motion that SOB did have his hand around the face. It could still be a citing.

Lowe clearly dropped a knee into Biggar, how much impact he made is hard to tell

Doesn't bode well for the Lion that Peyper lets the Maoris away with so much close to the line without carding them as they won't get as many opportunities close to the line and if the ABs do the same it'll kill the Lions

Gosh, perhaps you can deal with Lowe when he comes over in a few months? Who's he contracted to?
I wouldn't necessarily compare that side to the ABs, tonight showed why a lot of these guys aren't ABs if anything.

It's quite interesting watching the progress of both sides leading into next week. For us the Lions play such a structured centric game that we aren't used to it. We use possession and territory to....score tries. It's a means to an end. Every time we get good ball we use it to score points, no mucking around.

The Lions use possession and territory to control things, to get... more possession and territory, more control, tries almost a by-product of the huge effort to get that control, usually the case when the tries are mostly fall over the line, penalty try type tries.

It's an interesting contrast and it's going to require a bit of patience and discipline next week. But the big difference with the ABs and the rest of the teams the Lions are playing is the ABs have played these types of teams from previous internationals. Most of the Crusaders and Maori haven't, so they know what they're in for.

eirebilly wrote:Players who I think assured themselves of a test berth tonight that I felt were not definite.


06 : POM (captain as Warburton will not start)
07 : SOB
12 : Te'o
13 : Davies
15 : Halfpenny

Not a game for the wingers but I feel that Watson had a decent shift but North was not so good. Still very open.

Agree with most... Think Warbs will feature for at least one (or maybe two) tests. But I just know, the sort of professional he is, if he doesn't think he's at his best, he will withdraw himself from selection, and Gats wont be shy in doing it.

Also think Itoje has won himself a test spot, just don't know if it will off the bench or starting.

Griff wrote:I asked the question earlier in the thread about whether the Maori would face the same difficulties as the Lions in terms of being thrown together, and would therefore not be as good as the club sides we've faced, and I think this game as shown that to be the case. Lions improving with more time together. Maori would probably be better if they were playing again next week, and better again the week after, etc.

Hard to know Griff, but I'd have expected more passion and a heightened sense of 'something' from the MABs that in theory should have carried them. We didn't get any of that tonight.

Some players like DMac and Lowe for example were on fire only a week ago for their SR side but they were average or very poor tonight. Silly errors, no spark. There didn't seem to be any unity from the MABs which was both odd and disappointing to be honest.

I wouldnt say this often but they let the jersey down tonight. They didn't turn up, almost seemed disinterested, and that is a very big let down for the MAB legacy. Commentators said it was the biggest losing margin.

In saying all that, the Lions didn't allow them anything. So yeah the MABs looked average but the Lions were very good in certain areas, especially closing down attack and they've been trying to do that all tour.

TightHEAD wrote:I guess Gatlands Lions are going for 2nd place, will be an improvement on 5th place. Warrenball doesn't work against these guys.

Don't believe you are in NZ on a Lions tour. Why would you spend thousands of pounds following a tour you are so dead against..

But if you are, I really feel for the others on the tour. I would hate, spending all that money for a tour to have a boring, doomsayer on tour bringing every one down... Good grief, just start enjoying it, as true rugby fans do...

Is it better to start with Marler and have Mako on the bench? Mako's scrummaging has previously been questionable although I can't really comment on it today having not seen it. Owens or George to start? Best will probably come in for at least one test I would have thought.

No9 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Players who I think assured themselves of a test berth tonight that I felt were not definite.


06 : POM (captain as Warburton will not start)
07 : SOB
12 : Te'o
13 : Davies
15 : Halfpenny

Not a game for the wingers but I feel that Watson had a decent shift but North was not so good. Still very open.

Agree with most... Think Warbs will feature for at least one (or maybe two) tests. But I just know, the sort of professional he is, if he doesn't think he's at his best, he will withdraw himself from selection, and Gats wont be shy in doing it.

Also think Itoje has won himself a test spot, just don't know if it will off the bench or starting.

I rate both Warburton and AWJ but right now I think the pack has a better balance without them. In Kruis and Itoje, you have the familiarity which will be incredibly important. POM, SOB and Faletau work very well together. Its a hard choice for Gatland but that is the direction I would go. All those boys seem to compliment each other on the field and in POM you have a natural leader.

Was very impressed with Davies today, he looks to be in some fine form and has surely secured the 13 spot.

I will get slated here but I would not have Sexton or Farrell together in the match day squad, I feel Biggar is much better coming of the bench so right now I would start with Farrell (if fit) with Biggar on the bench.

mikey_dragon wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:I guess Gatlands Lions are going for 2nd place, will be an improvement on 5th place. Warrenball doesn't work against these guys.

32-10 says that it works.

Lol, too many points left on the pitch, can't do that against the world champions.

Warrenball will not work vs NZ.

No9 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:I guess Gatlands Lions are going for 2nd place, will be an improvement on 5th place. Warrenball doesn't work against these guys.

Don't believe you are in NZ on a Lions tour. Why would you spend thousands of pounds following a tour you are so dead against..

But if you are, I really feel for the others on the tour. I would hate, spending all that money for a tour to have a boring, doomsayer on tour bringing every one down... Good grief, just start enjoying it, as true rugby fans do...

You can think what you want mate you are just jealous, I'm making life long memories out here

TightHEAD wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:I guess Gatlands Lions are going for 2nd place, will be an improvement on 5th place. Warrenball doesn't work against these guys.

32-10 says that it works.

Lol, too many points left on the pitch, can't do that against the world champions.

Warrenball will not work vs NZ.

Actually disagree here, that type of game plan is exactly (or close to) what Ireland used when they beat the AB's. It may not be pretty but it is very effective. Rule the set pieces and starve the AB's of possession and the AB's can be beaten.

eirebilly wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:I guess Gatlands Lions are going for 2nd place, will be an improvement on 5th place. Warrenball doesn't work against these guys.

32-10 says that it works.

Lol, too many points left on the pitch, can't do that against the world champions.

Warrenball will not work vs NZ.

Actually disagree here, that type of game plan is exactly (or close to) what Ireland used when they beat the AB's. It may not be pretty but it is very effective. Rule the set pieces and starve the AB's of possession and the AB's can be beaten.

...and it's what SA have done on almost all occasions they've beat the ABs. Playing like a super rugby team won't beat them, they're the kings of counter-attacking and loose play.

TightHEAD wrote:

No9 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:I guess Gatlands Lions are going for 2nd place, will be an improvement on 5th place. Warrenball doesn't work against these guys.

Don't believe you are in NZ on a Lions tour. Why would you spend thousands of pounds following a tour you are so dead against..

But if you are, I really feel for the others on the tour. I would hate, spending all that money for a tour to have a boring, doomsayer on tour bringing every one down... Good grief, just start enjoying it, as true rugby fans do...

You can think what you want mate you are just jealous, I'm making life long memories out here

Lol making memories at the prince of Wales in Cardiff is it? Hope you enjoyed your beer and breakfast.