Maori All Blacks v British & Irish Lions, 17 June

First topic message reminder :

Maori All Blacks v British & Irish Lions
17 June 2017
KO: 19:35 NZST (8.35am BST)
Rotorua International Stadium, Rotorua

Live on Sky Sports, Sky Sports HD and SkyGo

Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Touch judges: [tbc]
TMO: [tbc]

A. FORM:

Played 8, Maori won 1, Lions won 7

Recently:

2005-06-11
NZ Maori 19 - 13 British and Irish Lions

1993-05-29
NZ Maori 20 - 24 British and Irish Lions

1977-07-13
NZ Maori 19 - 22 British and Irish Lions

B. TEAMS:

Maori All Blacks 
J Lowe; N Milner-Skudder, M Proctor, C Ngatai, R Ioane; D McKenzie, T Kerr-Barlow; K Hames, A Dixon (capt), B May, J Wheeler, T Franklin, A Ioane, E Dixon, L Messam.

Replacements: H Elliot, C Eves, M Renata, L Price, K Pryor, B Hall, I West, R Thompson.

British & Irish Lions
L Halfpenny (Wales); A Watson (England), J Davies (Wales), B Te'o (England), G North (Wales); J Sexton, C Murray (both Ireland); M Vunipola, J George (both England), T Furlong (Ireland), M Itoje, G Kruis (both England), P O'Mahony (capt, Ireland), S O'Brien (Ireland), T Faletau (Wales).

Replacements: K Owens (Wales), J McGrath (Ireland), K Sinckler (England), I Henderson (Ireland), S Warburton (Wales), G Laidlaw (Scotland), D Biggar (Wales), E Daly (England).

C. PREVIEW

Ah yeah I forgot Russell was in Australia. Maybe Gats would wait and see how that game goes for Finn against Australia before making a decision. If that's the case they should make Laidlaw captain too and maybe ask him to kick less.

One hell of a pack

British & Irish Lions (v Maori All Blacks, Saturday, June 17, Rotorua International Stadium, 7.35pm NZST/8.35am BST)

15. Leigh Halfpenny – Toulon, Wales, #775
14. Anthony Watson – Bath Rugby, England, #816
13. Jonathan Davies – Scarlets, Wales, #778
12. Ben Te’o – Worcester Warriors, England, #815
11. George North – Northampton Saints, Wales, #792
10. Johnny Sexton – Leinster, Ireland, #791
9. Conor Murray – Munster, Ireland, #790

1. Mako Vunipola – Saracens, England, #787
2. Jamie George – Saracens, England, #818
3. Tadhg Furlong – Leinster, Ireland, #817
4. Maro Itoje – Saracens, England, #825
5. George Kruis – Saracens, England, #819
6. Peter O’Mahony (capt) – Munster, Ireland, #833
7. Sean O’Brien – Leinster, Ireland, #796
8. Taulupe Faletau – Bath Rugby, Wales, #779

Replacements
16. Ken Owens – Scarlets, Wales, #829
17. Jack McGrath – Leinster, Ireland, #827
18. Kyle Sinckler – Harlequins, England, #814
19. Iain Henderson – Ulster, Ireland, #808
20. Sam Warburton – Cardiff Blues, Wales, #800
21. Greig Laidlaw – Gloucester Rugby, Scotland, #810
22. Owen Farrell – Saracens, England, #780
23. Elliot Daly – Wasps, England, #822

Looking a lot like a test team.

There's not much subtlety in that backline and very little flair - let's hope they can get some tries.

That backline is well, a bit crap.

Farrell Injured. Biggar to the bench.

Farrell picked up a grade one tear of his quad in training. I suspect this is what saw him named on the bench in the first place. That would indicate it's not that serious and he should be fine for next week.

Interestingly though, the management were expected to run a Sexton/Farrell 10/12 in the second half and have a look at it. To those that say we had a look at it against the Crusaders, I'm not sure that's true. Both Farrell and Sexton actually spent time lining up at 13 rather than 12. For me, to be looking at completely changing the structure of your backline/attacking game 1 week out is madness. I'm a little disappointed the management haven't had the conviction to stick with a plan.

Of course, it could all be hearsay.

Well are we suprised gaty has picked a dull looking back line. Feel sorry for Watson

cascough wrote:Farrell picked up a grade one tear of his quad in training. I suspect this is what saw him named on the bench in the first place. That would indicate it's not that serious and he should be fine for next week.

Interestingly though, the management were expected to run a Sexton/Farrell 10/12 in the second half and have a look at it. To those that say we had a look at it against the Crusaders, I'm not sure that's true. Both Farrell and Sexton actually spent time lining up at 13 rather than 12. For me, to be looking at completely changing the structure of your backline/attacking game 1 week out is madness. I'm a little disappointed the management haven't had the conviction to stick with a plan.

Of course, it could all be hearsay.

Unless they've been secretly working on it behind closed doors all this time, it does seem a little reactionary.

Gatland should have known that New Zealand is full of high-skilled players, and if he wants to take them on he either needs equally skilled players or the biggest, nastiest team he can find. He needed to pick a plan and stick to it and if he's considering a late switch to Sexton and Farrell, he hasn't done that and it could cost him.

I think Gatland should use Farrell's injury to call up another 10 as cover as well.

If Farrell can't play against the Chiefs or Gatland doesn't want to use him against the Chiefs because he wants to start him first test, then it will put a lot of strain on Sexton (who has already played a lot of minutes on tour) and Biggar - and may lead to one of them breaking down.

It will also free him up to play Sexton and Farrell together at 10/12 if he wants to, with a couple of separate 10s for the midweek squad. It means he can just get Sexton and Farrell working together, and not disrupting their week to sit on the bench midweek.

I like that starting pack a lot.

beshocked wrote:I like that starting pack a lot.

As many Sarries as possible, of course you do.

Scottrf wrote:

beshocked wrote:I like that starting pack a lot.

As many Sarries as possible, of course you do.

I like it too, and it's nothing to do with so many Sarries players - don't think many people would argue that it is probably the strongest we could get.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

beshocked wrote:I like that starting pack a lot.

As many Sarries as possible, of course you do.

I like it too, and it's nothing to do with so many Sarries players - don't think many people would argue that it is probably the strongest we could get.

Agree but it's fun to wind Beshocked up.

Really strong looking pack. Still can't help but wonder what Billy Vunipola would have been able to do in a pack like that.

The backs look ok, JD was looking sharp in his last game and Watson is probably the pick of our back three players. Just need to get them some good ball.

George Carlin wrote:Am still pissed that Ihaia West chose the boring perfection of NZ instead of the never-ending cycle of glorious defeat and functional alcoholism which he would have enjoyed were he to have chosen the polyester blue of a Scotland shirt.

And don't even start me on the fact that Richie McCaw could have played for Scotland too.

You are assuming he would have been selected

I like the look of that pack too. Strong.

carpet baboon wrote:Well are we suprised gaty has picked a dull looking back line. Feel sorry for Watson

Who exactly have they got whos going to add a bit of flair to it?

In the absence of Youngs/Ford Murray/Sexton is the most creative half back combination they have available.
Te'os ball handling is underatted, he spent much of his career as a fly half. His strength is his direct running but he can play football too. What other options at 12 are there that would offer more creativity? Even if he were fit I dont really but Farrell at 12 for the Lions.
OK JD2 could swap for JJ for a bit more pace, but neither is much of a footballer.
North and Halfpenny ...OK neither is exactly the most dynamic and subtle of options to get the best from Watson....but hopefuly he wil be used as the kick returner and get to run from deep at least. With Hogg unavailable theres not many places beyond Halfpenny to go for a fullback.

It is a pretty phyisical Lions backs division but it also has a balance of skills and pace.


Overall I suspect this is close to the current prefered test team (Farrells absence aside), and Gatlands comments back that up. Most interestingly around Warburton who he is now suggesting may not make the test team. If this backrow goes well that really could happen.

I wonder how many defenders 1/2p will beat?

Has North played yet?...

Taxes, death and TightHEAD

yappysnap wrote:Really strong looking pack. Still can't help but wonder what Billy Vunipola would have been able to do in a pack like that.

The backs look ok, JD was looking sharp in his last game and Watson is probably the pick of our back three players. Just need to get them some good ball.

Shame Billy isn't there but Faletau has been playing himself back in to form and is a good no 8 option.


It's obvious that it is the backs where the main problems lie.

I would have personally had either Ford/Russell instead of Biggar and Care instead of Laidlaw but the backline has to work with what it's got.

Gooseberry Mahony as captain does suggest that Warburton is no longer guaranteed - agreed.

Halfpenny at full back IMO will not offer anything in attack.

Gooseberry wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Well are we suprised gaty has picked a dull looking back line. Feel sorry for Watson

Who exactly have they got whos going to add a bit of flair to it?

In the absence of Youngs/Ford Murray/Sexton is the most creative half back combination they have available.
Te'os ball handling is underatted, he spent much of his career as a fly half. His strength is his direct running but he can play football too. What other options at 12 are there that would offer more creativity? Even if he were fit I dont really but Farrell at 12 for the Lions.
OK JD2 could swap for JJ for a bit more pace, but neither is much of a footballer.
North and Halfpenny ...OK neither is exactly the most dynamic and subtle of options to get the best from Watson....but hopefuly he wil be used as the kick returner and get to run from deep at least. With Hogg unavailable theres not many places beyond Halfpenny to go for a fullback.

It is a pretty phyisical Lions backs division but it also has a balance of skills and pace.


Overall I suspect this is close to the current prefered test team (Farrells absence aside), and Gatlands comments back that up. Most interestingly around Warburton who he is now suggesting may not make the test team. If this backrow goes well that really could happen.

I don't think you can play teo and JD together. I'm all for pressing  the all blacks force them I to errors, but when you get quick turnover ball you need a back line that can move it wide fast. JD passing is at best erratic.
And as good as teos passing can be he hasn't shown it so far.
I like them Individually but as a partnership I dont see it working. I hope I'm wrong.
Would rather jj at 13. Or henshaw did pretty well outside a hard running bundi. Could work well with teo.

To be honest I think gatland should have picked Scott Williams not JD

Interesting question - if that is the test team would PoM be your test captain? That starting XV is lacking in leadership. Then again I wouldn't propose swapping Itoje for AWJ for extra leadership.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:Here's my prediction for the Maori 23:
1 Kane Hames
2 Ash Dixon
3 Ben May
4 Joe Wheeler
5 Tom Franklin
6 Elliot Dixon/Liam Messam
7 Kara Prior
8 Akira Ioane
9 Tawera Kerr-Barlow
10 Otere Black
11 James Lowe
12 Charlie Ngatai
13 Rieko Ioane
14 Nehe Milner-Skudder
15 Damien McKenzie
16 Hika Elliot
17 Chris Eves
18 Marcel Renata
19 Leighton Price
20 Dixon/Messam
21 Bryn Hall
22 Ihaia West
23 Tim Bateman/Matt Proctor

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

BamBam wrote:Black is the weakest player in the backline - do a job on him and we can contain the backs .. although Mckenzie will help him out

They might just spring a surprise & start DMac at 10 too - he's filled in there a bit for the Chiefs this season & is lined up to replace Cruden next season. Proctor into 13, Ioane to 14 & Milner-Skudder to 15 is still tasty (Ioane is probably a better wing than 13)

I'm glad I hedged my bets ...
1 Kane Hames
2 Ash Dixon
3 Ben May
4 Joe Wheeler
5 Tom Franklin
6 Elliot Dixon
7 Liam Messam
8 Akira Ioane
9 Tawera Kerr-Barlow
10 Damien McKenzie
11 Rieko Ioane
12 Charlie Ngatai
13 Matt Proctor
14 Nehe Milner-Skudder
15 James Lowe
16 Hika Elliot
17 Chris Eves
18 Marcel Renata
19 Leighton Price
20 Kara Prior
21 Bryn Hall
22 Ihaia West
23 Rob Thompson

I suspect NMS & Lowe will share a bit of wing/fullback

Messam and Ioane together in that backrow is tasty. Before you even look at the backs!

The pack is pretty good but Mako's scrummaging against the Blues worried me. Swap him to the bench and start Marler or McGrath and I would feel more comfortable. Other than that, and possibly swapping AWJ for Henderson on the bench I'd be happy to see that as the test pack.

The backline isn't so bad either. I would rather Farrell than Sexton (but Farrell's got a knock) and rather JJ than JD (but I think this game is kill or cure for JD), and I thought Watson has been the Lions' best fullback so far... but then none of the other wings have really performed, so Watson / Halfpenny isn't a bad combination, especially with Daly on the bench.

It looks like a good Maori side and should give us a good indication of whether the Lions Test side is nearly done or not.

To be honest I am surprised that Best has gone from perhaps the frontrunner for the hooker jersey to seemingly 3rd choice as things stand.

Still time before the first test of course though.

RDW Scotland yes I'd pick O Mahony as captain, he does captain Munster and is an experienced international.

That pack has a winning mentality I'd say. 7 of the pack are also from the 2nd and 4th best sides in the world.

It also has spine built on continuity. Sure it's shame that we couldn't have 8 from the 2nd and 4th best sides but can't have it all.....

Dixon at 6 is an animal at times, our back row is going to have to be at the top of their game.

Front 5 we should be on top, back row will be very competitive, we're stronger at half backs but their outside backs could rip us a new one

BamBam wrote:Dixon at 6 is an animal at times, our back row is going to have to be at the top of their game.

Front 5 we should be on top, back row will be very competitive, we're stronger at half backs but their outside backs could rip us a new one

That's pretty much how I see it too.

If the Maori could get 40% of possession you'd back them. But that might be a tough ask

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:If the Maori could get 40% of possession you'd back them. But that might be a tough ask

Not really, this Lions team loves to kick the ball away. Barbarians had 54%, Blues had 47, Highlanders 49. Only the Crusaders were close with 41%.

As I said in the other thread, we box kicked 15 seconds before half time vs Highlanders on the half way line. Literally saying we'd rather the half be over than have possession in the middle of the park.

Scottrf wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:If the Maori could get 40% of possession you'd back them. But that might be a tough ask

Not really, this Lions team loves to kick the ball away. Barbarians had 54%, Blues had 47, Highlanders 49. Only the Crusaders were close with 41%.

As I said in the other thread, we box kicked 15 seconds before half time vs Highlanders on the half way line. Literally saying we'd rather the half be over than have possession in the middle of the park.

Kicking the ball isn't a bad option if you chase hard and kick accurately. Not always guaranteed though!

I would actually like to see Lions put the ball more and try to put some pressure on the lineout, with O Mahony,Kruis and Itoje there are 3 players who can attack the lineout.

Lions don't have the backline to attack from deep do they? Lions don't have the personnel to play like NZ, so no point trying. Lions do have skillful players though, just I'd say more in the pack than backline!

It's a bad option with no time on the clock. What percentage of our kicks have we gathered?

Scottrf wrote:It's a bad option with no time on the clock. What percentage of our kicks have we gathered?

The Maori effectively have 3 fullbacks playing; Lowe, DMac (I doubt he'll defend at 10) & NMS so I wouldn't back it as a strategy

RDW_Scotland wrote:Interesting question - if that is the test team would PoM be your test captain? That starting XV is lacking in leadership. Then again I wouldn't propose swapping Itoje for AWJ for extra leadership.

Gat's is trying to be cute here but not really fooling anyone. Warbs will start with SOB or O'Mahoney on the bench. If Warbs isn't fit AWJ will be captain.

Henderson will be in the dirt trackers on Tuesday which will be captained by Best, Laidlaw or Stander.

Itoje will come in on the bench and any blind man and his dog can see that they've been working the Farrell/Sexton 10/12 combo in training, its just whether they start with Teo or not.

Webb will come in on the bench, maybe Liam Williams on the wing as the Lions will plan to huff the ball in the air and chase.

None of this matters a jot to the ABs who will wallop the Lions from pillar to post no matter who Gatland selects where.

This will they won't they pick Warbs nonsense is laughable as Warburton is one of the most irrelevant players on the tour, he shouldn't have made the plane.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

Scottrf wrote:It's a bad option with no time on the clock. What percentage of our kicks have we gathered?

The Maori effectively have 3 fullbacks playing; Lowe, DMac (I doubt he'll defend at 10) & NMS so I wouldn't back it as a strategy

Maybe with this lock pairing and POM they will go for touch a lot more this match.

Scottrf wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

Scottrf wrote:It's a bad option with no time on the clock. What percentage of our kicks have we gathered?

The Maori effectively have 3 fullbacks playing; Lowe, DMac (I doubt he'll defend at 10) & NMS so I wouldn't back it as a strategy

Maybe with this lock pairing and POM they will go for touch a lot more this match.

Hopefully the Maori leave 3 guys back to field kicks as well, which would give us half a chance at our first line break on tour.

rodders wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Interesting question - if that is the test team would PoM be your test captain? That starting XV is lacking in leadership. Then again I wouldn't propose swapping Itoje for AWJ for extra leadership.

Gat's is trying to be cute here but not really fooling anyone. Warbs will start with SOB or O'Mahoney on the bench. If Warbs isn't fit AWJ will be captain.

Henderson will be in the dirt trackers on Tuesday which will be captained by Best, Laidlaw or Stander.

Itoje will come in on the bench and any blind man and his dog can see that they've been working the Farrell/Sexton 10/12 combo in training, its just whether they start with Teo or not.

Webb will come in on the bench, maybe Liam Williams on the wing as the Lions will plan to huff the ball in the air and chase.

None of this matters a jot to the ABs who will wallop the Lions from pillar to post no matter who Gatland selects where.

This will they won't they pick Warbs nonsense is laughable as Warburton is one of the most irrelevant players on the tour, he shouldn't have made the plane.

rodders

If this starting pack does well, I think it will be hard for Gatland to leave any of them out.

There is no justification for starting either Warburton or AWJ at the moment.

Gatland didn't need to make a non Welsh captain but he has.


Scottrf already mentioned that as the likely thing to happen.

I'd echo above bit strange that best has seemingly fallen down the perfect king order. Pick of the hookers so far for me and I've never been a huge fan. The scrums have been better with him there all the lineouts have been about the same and he's been really strong in the loose and particularly St the breakdown.

rodders wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Interesting question - if that is the test team would PoM be your test captain? That starting XV is lacking in leadership. Then again I wouldn't propose swapping Itoje for AWJ for extra leadership.

Gat's is trying to be cute here but not really fooling anyone. Warbs will start with SOB or O'Mahoney on the bench. If Warbs isn't fit AWJ will be captain.

Henderson will be in the dirt trackers on Tuesday which will be captained by Best, Laidlaw or Stander.

Itoje will come in on the bench and any blind man and his dog can see that they've been working the Farrell/Sexton 10/12 combo in training, its just whether they start with Teo or not.

Webb will come in on the bench, maybe Liam Williams on the wing as the Lions will plan to huff the ball in the air and chase.

None of this matters a jot to the ABs who will wallop the Lions from pillar to post no matter who Gatland selects where.

This will they won't they pick Warbs nonsense is laughable as Warburton is one of the most irrelevant players on the tour, he shouldn't have made the plane.

When you say irrelevant players guys like Henshaw and Payne spring to mind. Worst midfield since Tindall and Noon.

mikey_dragon wrote:

rodders wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Interesting question - if that is the test team would PoM be your test captain? That starting XV is lacking in leadership. Then again I wouldn't propose swapping Itoje for AWJ for extra leadership.

Gat's is trying to be cute here but not really fooling anyone. Warbs will start with SOB or O'Mahoney on the bench. If Warbs isn't fit AWJ will be captain.

Henderson will be in the dirt trackers on Tuesday which will be captained by Best, Laidlaw or Stander.

Itoje will come in on the bench and any blind man and his dog can see that they've been working the Farrell/Sexton 10/12 combo in training, its just whether they start with Teo or not.

Webb will come in on the bench, maybe Liam Williams on the wing as the Lions will plan to huff the ball in the air and chase.

None of this matters a jot to the ABs who will wallop the Lions from pillar to post no matter who Gatland selects where.

This will they won't they pick Warbs nonsense is laughable as Warburton is one of the most irrelevant players on the tour, he shouldn't have made the plane.

When you say irrelevant players guys like Henshaw and Payne spring to mind. Worst midfield since Tindall and Noon.

Errrr I'll have you know that we once lined up against NZ with Erinle and Hipkiss!

I'd throw Burgess and barritt as a rubbish partnership since then as well.

cascough wrote:
Errrr I'll have you know that we once lined up against NZ with Erinle and Hipkiss!

How did that team restrict NZ to a single try?

15 FB Mark Cueto
14 W Matt Banahan
13 C Dan Hipkiss
12 C Ayoola Erinle
11 W Ugo Monye
10 FH Jonny Wilkinson
9 SH Paul Hodgson
1 P Tim Payne
2 H Dylan Hartley
3 P Duncan Bell
4 L Simon Shaw
5 L Steve Borthwick (c)
6 F Joe Worsley
7 F Lewis Moody
8 N8 James Haskell



versus


15 FB Mils Muliaina
14 W Zac Guildford
13 C Conrad Smith
12 C Ma'a Nonu
11 W Sitiveni Sivivatu
10 FH Dan Carter
9 SH Jimmy Cowan
1 P Tony Woodcock
2 H Andrew Hore
3 P Owen Franks
4 L Brad Thorn
5 L Tom Donnelly
6 F Adam Thomson
7 F Richie McCaw (c)
8 N8 Kieran Read

LondonTiger wrote:

cascough wrote:
Errrr I'll have you know that we once lined up against NZ with Erinle and Hipkiss!

How did that team restrict NZ to a single try?

15 FB Mark Cueto
14 W Matt Banahan
13 C Dan Hipkiss
12 C Ayoola Erinle
11 W Ugo Monye
10 FH Jonny Wilkinson
9 SH Paul Hodgson
1 P Tim Payne
2 H Dylan Hartley
3 P Duncan Bell
4 L Simon Shaw
5 L Steve Borthwick (c)
6 F Joe Worsley
7 F Lewis Moody
8 N8 James Haskell



versus


15 FB Mils Muliaina
14 W Zac Guildford
13 C Conrad Smith
12 C Ma'a Nonu
11 W Sitiveni Sivivatu
10 FH Dan Carter
9 SH Jimmy Cowan
1 P Tony Woodcock
2 H Andrew Hore
3 P Owen Franks
4 L Brad Thorn
5 L Tom Donnelly
6 F Adam Thomson
7 F Richie McCaw (c)
8 N8 Kieran Read

Just wrote a near enough identical post. It's definitely a team set up to tackle, and little else.

The pack is very solid and does have the makings of the test pack. POM at the lineout is a menace and will disrupt the MAB's no end.

The backs...

Well I think they are not too bad if I may be honest. I was a big doubter of Te'o before the tour but he has more than done enough to start at 12 and if Davies and he click then they will cause defences many issues.

Would have liked to see Nowell get another shot on the wing ahead of Watson who I would put at 15. Nothing against 1/2p (who gets a lot of stick but is much better than a lot of people say) but I like Watson's attacking abilities.

mikey dragon wrote:When you say irrelevant players guys like Henshaw and Payne spring to mind. Worst midfield since Tindall and Noon.

And yet they were the mid field in the last team to beat NZ

LondonTiger wrote:

How did that team restrict NZ to a single try?

15 FB Mark Cueto
14 W Matt Banahan
13 C Dan Hipkiss
12 C Ayoola Erinle
11 W Ugo Monye
10 FH Jonny Wilkinson
9 SH Paul Hodgson
1 P Tim Payne
2 H Dylan Hartley
3 P Duncan Bell
4 L Simon Shaw
5 L Steve Borthwick (c)
6 F Joe Worsley
7 F Lewis Moody
8 N8 James Haskell



versus


15 FB Mils Muliaina
14 W Zac Guildford
13 C Conrad Smith
12 C Ma'a Nonu
11 W Sitiveni Sivivatu
10 FH Dan Carter
9 SH Jimmy Cowan
1 P Tony Woodcock
2 H Andrew Hore
3 P Owen Franks
4 L Brad Thorn
5 L Tom Donnelly
6 F Adam Thomson
7 F Richie McCaw (c)
8 N8 Kieran Read

Lewis Moody that's how. He disrupted the AB's at every turn. Quality player back in the day.

rapidsnowman wrote:

mikey dragon wrote:When you say irrelevant players guys like Henshaw and Payne spring to mind. Worst midfield since Tindall and Noon.

And yet they were the mid field in the last team to beat NZ

I thought we were meant to pick on form and not past accomplishments?

Griff wrote:

rapidsnowman wrote:

mikey dragon wrote:When you say irrelevant players guys like Henshaw and Payne spring to mind. Worst midfield since Tindall and Noon.

And yet they were the mid field in the last team to beat NZ

I thought we were meant to pick on form and not past accomplishments?

If we are picking on form then no way should Payne be in the team. Henshaw has done enough to start at 12 but I think Te'o has done more. Davies is the form 13 (ahead of JJ in my opinion) and should get the start if he plays well against the MAB's.

My response was in answer to mikey's claim they were the worst midfield since Tindall and Noon.

Obviously they aren't that bad if they helped beat the all Blacks.

Payne had a poor game at full back. He was doing much better in the centre before he went off.

No one is suggesting he should play in the tests. Rodders point (i think) was Warbs is not the best option in the back row and shouldn't be guaranteed a start.

Henshaw is a class player but he's not been at his best on this tour - maybe because he's only been used as a Jamie Roberts style bosh merchant?