Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[dynamark]

First topic message reminder :

He came across very poor as did fellow lib Clegg with his constant sniping at the Brexit issue.
Good riddance to both.Libs may well be a non entity now.
Tories have to proceed with caution now and build up some confidence again.

Our fire guy at work is telling us today that they really should have gone for a full evacuation at an early stage but that runs right against all previous policy putting residents and fire staff in potentially greater danger.In Blackadder terms it would have been going 'over the top'

[super_realist]

Stop the press Lowry is next on the Super hit list.Ok is a tad overweight and Ill never forgive him for beating Rock in the irish (Rob didn't mind he got the cheque!) but he is a lot better golfer than most .
Very few foreign teams pay top dollar probably 4 in each league who dominate.We do have more depth probably 8/10 clubs.

Lowry is one of my main targets, the fat knacker is a waste of golf talent because he refuses to maximise it.

Funny how the EPL has the most money yet virtually NONE of the top players come here, so it's got bugger all to do with money, why don't Ronaldo, Messi, Neymar, Griezman etc come here? Money doesn't seem to be making the top players go to the teams in China/Middle East does it?

Let's stop pretending this is about money. Stones didn't go to a better team because A) they either didn't want him, B) He's not good enough, C) He's not got the bottle to do it. Nothing to do with City playing more money, even if they could, which I doubt.

It's hilarious to say that Real couldn't afford Pogba, when they have Ronaldo, Bale, Suarez and Neymar.

It's RIDICULOUS to suggest anyone (although if anyone would it would be a British player) would turn down Barcelona, Bayern, Real in favour of a johnny cum lately team in wet, rainy cold Manchester.

[beninho]

Why would Ronaldo, Messi or Neymar leave the massive clubs they are at, earning the ridiculous wages they already get to come to the premier league. They dont need to. Griezmann would have, but Athletico had a transfer ban so he announced he was staying.

Real Madrid and Barcelona received similar TV rights coverage to Everton and Southampton last year. So while they are massive clubs with lots of money they receive less then the big teams in the premier league.

Madrid said they did not want to proceed for Pogba due to the cost, I think Raiola got 40m, maybe that was an issue, or maybe Pogba turned them down. If he did though, and he was the biggest and most high profile name available that shows that top players do go the the premier league.

[super_realist]

Why if English clubs offer so much money don't the top players come here? I've just heard you say how clubs can't match English salaries, now you're changing your tune and say they can?

I couldn't care less if Barca and Real get the same TV money as Everton and Southampton, that's hardly their only source of income and hardly as if Barca/Real only have the same money as those two. Barca and Real are two of the very richest clubs in the world.

The EPL has virtually no top names, which makes me believe that it's not about money. Players want to play in teams that win the Champions League, that doesn't happen very often in England, which is why money doesn't matter. So even when they offer ludicrous money, they still can't get them to come.

Pogba is ONE, and Ibrahimovic is over the hill. There must be something about the league that isn't attractive to the top players.

[I'm never wrong]

Apropos Super_Realists' condemnation of Scottish football, an honest appraisal by a manager of his teams performance in defeat. CLICK HERE

[navyblueshorts]

Why if English clubs offer so much money don't the top players come here? I've just heard you say how clubs can't match English salaries, now you're changing your tune and say they can?

I couldn't care less if Barca and Real get the same TV money as Everton and Southampton, that's hardly their only source of income and hardly as if Barca/Real only have the same money as those two. Barca and Real are two of the very richest clubs in the world.

The EPL has virtually no top names, which makes me believe that it's not about money. Players want to play in teams that win the Champions League, that doesn't happen very often in England, which is why money doesn't matter. So even when they offer ludicrous money, they still can't get them to come.

Pogba is ONE, and Ibrahimovic is over the hill. There must be something about the league that isn't attractive to the top players.

I think there' also a problem that the typical multilingual UK footballer feels that those Johnny Foreigners can't communicate with them if they play on the Continent etc...

[Roller_Coaster]

One would have thought that playa power alone might attract some more Brits to play there.

Haii thank youw

[pedro]

Navy, think you're on to something. The reasoning must be quite similar to that of US golfers and why they dont travel abroad either.

[raycastleunited]

English teams have a lot of money, so do the big clubs in the major European leagues. When you are at the very pinnacle of the game where money is no object, your destination is Madrid or Barcelona. Ultimately no club can compete with those two because they offer the cash AND the prestige. That's why the premier league lost players like Ronaldo, Bale and Suarez.

BUT... after Madrid and Barca, the big premier league clubs compete with anyone and have signed some of the best players in the world. If you think there are no top names in the premier league you have no idea what you're talking about... Sanchez, Ozil, Lacazette, Aguero, Silva, Pogba, Zlatan, Lukaku, Hazard, De Bruyn, etc etc.

Let's take goalkeepers as an example, we've got Cech, Courtois, de Gea, Lloris who have all been world class in recent years.

Super - for someone with no interest in football you seem to have a lot of opinions, and dare I say it, a lot of interest.

[super_realist]

Ray, my initial point was that British players do not play abroad by and large, other than Bale and Burke and perhaps a few others. Seems very shortsighted of them that they would rather stay at Everton, Southampton, Palace etc rather than go to Villareal, Dortmund etc.

There are some very good foreign players in England, but the very top players are not, it's nothing to do with money, it's about the chance of success with team other than winning the league.

Champions League is where it's at, and these guys are not going to come when English clubs don't regularly do well (despite all their money)

Ozil? Ha ha. He's ok, but he's not exactly set the world on fire has he? Zlatan is collecting clubs and is over the hill. Lukaku has played for nobodies, didn't make it at Chelsea, went on loan, and ended up in middle table team, now got his big move, but he's not one of the very best.

[beninho]

Who are your world top players you would like to see come to the premier league then?

[raycastleunited]

Ozil has been inconsistent in recent years, but at the time he came to Arsenal he was widely recognised as one of the best creative players in the world. He left Madrid because he was competing with Modric for one spot, any other team in world football would have signed him (maybe bar Barca). I repeat my point: the very top players in the world do come to the premier league, unless Real Madrid or Barcelona decide they want them.

In the last 5 years we've seen the 2 Madrid clubs dominate the Champions League, but before that I think there was an English club in the final for 5 years out of 6. Chelsea, Man U and Man City are easily capable of getting to the CL semis, and from there it becomes very tight.

I do agree that more English players should go abroad. It's a real shame that more do not broaden their horizons and those that do clearly learn a lot (both on and off the pitch). Owen Hargreaves was a perfect example of someone that played a different style more suited to international football as a result of playing in Germany. But as Beninho said, the motivation is not there if English clubs are willing to pay you more.

[super_realist]

So English players are only motivated by money, but European players are not? Well done. We've sorted out the English problem.

Chelsea, Man U, City WERE capable of getting to Semi's, not anymore. It's been years.

[Diggers]

So basically Super, you are saying Lukaku is average. But he went for 75 million...one of the biggest fees ever...but hang on, he's not English? How can that possibly happen?

[super_realist]

I'm not saying he's average, but his history would suggest he isn't YET one of the top players so the fee is staggering and over the top.

When you play for Everton and West Brom and can't make the cut at Chelsea, it doesn't scream out to me he's a top player (although he may turn out to be with this move)

His fee is pretty ridiculous, but even then he's shown more than the likes of Stones, Shaw and Walker.

I noticed that Andy Robertson might be going to Liverpool for just £8m. If he was English, I'd expect that to be £30m minimum.

[Roller_Coaster]

20 odd goals for an Everton side not challenging? Good return at a pretty poor West Brom as a youngster after not being able to break through in a top Chelsea side when still a kid?

No he's not there yet, but I think he's shown the ability and consistency in the top flight to be worthy of a shot - and the fee is all relative, everyone's is ridiculous. £75m this year is just last year's 35-40m. Reports are that Neymar's break fee is €195m and PSG have apparently met it. All he's done is played in a top side that is set up to play everything to their front 3, I'd back myself (OK a few years ago!) to get 20+ a year in a Barcelona side playing against all bar the Madrid's and the last 16 or 8 in the CL.

Barkley at a supposed £50m is far more ridiculous in my opinion, as is Siggurdsson - but then I don't operate as a scout, CFO or CEO of a premier league football team. If I did I suspect they might not be a premier league side for very long. Lukaku, pfft, true worth a sack of new balls and a meal out. It's all particularly stupid when the "contract" they sign is effectively worthless as they can seemingly take the hump with it and do nothing but sulk until being sold to somewhere they want to play - which then apparently becomes a good idea so the manager doesn't have a bad egg in the "dressing room politics".

Long story short, it's all schit but it is what it is. You know we've got money, we know you want such and such a player = colossal supply and demand inflation.

[raycastleunited]

I've had this conversation many times with mates in the past. Started off 15 years ago watching Real Madrid and wondering how many goals would you score playing up front with Zidane, Raul etc creating chances for you. Easy to think you could bag 20 a season with Messi and Suarez supplying you at Barca today.

Except it's not that easy, these guys are incredible. They make it look so easy but it really isn't

[McLaren]

ray

Super would score 45 a season in any team and actually be worth £75 million if he didn't have to go to his BP admin job.

[beninho]

The wifes a stoke City fan, and Arnautovic to the Hammers for 24m is another crazy deal. He is decent player with lots of skill, but 24m, for a 28 year old. Makes less sense then Stones or Shaw! But it seems that he agreed a new 4 year deal with Stoke last season on the basis they will sell him the following year and get top dollar. Just shows that contracts are nowt but bargaining chips for the clubs.

And Neymar for 195m, I am not seeing it, but maybe he wants to get out of Messi's shadow, or just wants another new contract for more money because Messi has signed another one.

[super_realist]

ray

Super would score 45 a season in any team and actually be worth £75 million if he didn't have to go to his BP admin job.

Mac, you know very well I currently work for a Danish company, and unlike you I have actually made very good use of my MSc, unlike you who is still earning an utter pittance and living in a squalid tenement scraping together his coppers for his bus pass.

[raycastleunited]

ray

Super would score 45 a season in any team and actually be worth £75 million if he didn't have to go to his BP admin job.

I think you're right

[JAS]

The EPL has virtually no top names, which makes me believe that it's not about money. Players want to play in teams that win the Champions League,

Top Players want to maximise their earnings and will gravitate toward teams who they realistically believe will be likely to compete at the highest level (realistically the latter stages of the Champions League).

Of course it's about money, if it's not about money and money has no bearing or influence, why aren't Raith Rovers up there competing for the best players and in the draw with Real & Barca for the CL quarter finals year in year out, Bet Neymar would just love sleety wet January Wednesday evenings in Kirkcaldy.

[super_realist]

JAS, don't be silly.

Money AT THAT LEVEL isn't that important.

If money was the only or even the most important factor, then Neymar, Messi, Suarez, Griezzman, Nieur, Ronaldo would all be playing in the EPL if they have more money than all the teams they currently play for.

If you were offered £40million a year to play for Everton or £32 million to play for Barcelona, where would you play? You'd have so much money that you'd probably pick the bigger, more glamourous club despite losing £8m a year. It's nothing like comparing the wage bill of Raith Rovers with Real, don't be a plank.

I'm talking about the difference between what a footballer earns at Spurs or Chelsea being off put against what they are paid at Juve, PSG, Real, Barcelona, Dortmund, Munich etc.
Even if Spurs, Everton, Man U can pay more than those teams, it's not sufficient to get the best players here is it? If it was all about money, they'd all be in Middle East or China wouldn't they, as they have more money than the most over-rated league in the world.

Raith Rovers is a bloody stupid analogy.

[beninho]

The premier league is the richest league in the world, Thats not really in dispute. Of course you have massive clubs in Spain, Italy and a rich one in France who can pay big bucks. Thats not in dispute. Lots of players will flit between these clubs earning massive wages and moving on when they are not needed or want to leave, Dani Alves, Alexis, Ozil, Danilo, Suarez. These clubs and some of the english clubs pretty much have their choice of who is available, they squabble between themselves and increase the transfer fee.

Look at Neymar, he could join a club a level below Barcelona in PSG, they just happen to be very rich, but Veratti may join Barcelona.

The money issue is as you go deeper in the premier league there is no comparison against the other leagues. Southampton sign players from Bayern and Napoli and pay them big wages. Players at mid table premier league teams will not go abroad as they will get no way near the level of wages they get in england.

[raycastleunited]

It's always black and white with you super. "The EPL has virtually no top names" "it's not about the money". The reality is it is a bit more nuanced than that. The EPL has plenty of top names and money is a massive factor, although not the only one. I doubt very much that anyone takes a pay cut to join Real Madrid or Barcelona.

[super_realist]

I don't expect people who have left school to have to take everything so literally Ray.

I'm not saying that people would take a pay cut to join Barca, the point that money is NOT too much of a factor when you already have more than you'll ever need or could ever spend and the reason for a move is because it's a more glamourous, famous club with more likelihood of success, something which is rarer in England regardless of how much you get paid.

When you already are paid extraordinary levels of money, people are more likely to be drawn to better clubs than for mercenary reasons, which is what English players are in general because they aren't good enough to command a transfer to one of the truly elite teams.

[beninho]

What is your opinion of an elite club?

Because in my opinion, Manchester United are probably the biggest club in the world, Manchester City, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool are all elite clubs. Tottenham close behind.

I would say that they all have players that would get into the Barcelona or Real Madrid squad pretty comfortably.

[super_realist]

The ones we are mentioning obviously and the ones who the very top players play for.

There are some big English clubs, but in general they don't have the top players playing for them.

The point is that the money that Man United, Arsenal, Chelsea, etc can offer isn't bringing the absolute best players to this league, HENCE, it's not about money.

Yes, SOME of these players MIGHT get into a Munich, Real or Barcelona team, but they aren't the English players are they?

Liverpool are not elite, they and their fans live in the past. They haven't won anything in a very very long time, they don't attract top players and they don't have any top players playing for them. Simply having a good history and a large fanbase doesn't make you elite.

[beninho]

Neymar to PSG for 196m, thats purely a money move.

[Diggers]

It would be interesting to know that of in general players bought from within the Premier League (possibly like Lukaku, Walker of whoever) for an inflated price, actually end up being more successful, and therefore in real terms offer more value, than players bought from another league (all be it possibly for less money).
I'd think there is a good chance they settle quicker and may well end up being a better option. There are simply countless foreign players in the 10-20 million bracket who come in and either hardly ever play or never settle, or if they do settle take a year to get used to the pace of the English game.

[super_realist]

Trouble is Diggers, that players with inflated prices in the EPL are most likely only likely to be traded between clubs in that league due to the price.

Can't see a big club (by that I mean the top clubs) buying a Walker/Stones/Shaw at their prices.

There's some bargains such as Sigurdsson, Kante, Mahrez who have been bought for pennies and ending up being great buys, but I can't see many of the players bought for ludicrous values like 50m (e.g. Sterling) ever improving significantly on that level.

[beninho]

The 10-20m players are probably barely worth that, but when a premier league club shows interest the fee goes up massively. But its not just here that big transfers are the thing.

Bayern have spent 37m on a french 23 year old midfielder from Lyon
Barcelona 25m on Portuguese 23year old full back
Milan spent 35m on Portugese 21 year old striker and 23m on a turkish 23 year old striker

[super_realist]

I agree that transfer fees are ridiculous, but at least those ones you mention are not quite as outrageous as the Stones/Sterling/Walker/Shaw bracket.

You have to ask how players like Dier and Alli bought for less than 10million are somehow rated as being 50m players after playing a few dozen games, especially when in the last 15 years there has only been one British player who could live up to that fee. Bale.

[beninho]

If spurs put Delle Ali up for sale he would cost no less then 100m. All top clubs would be interested and it would be a massive bidding war. If you are surprised about teh cost of Dele Alli in todays transfer market, then you will never understand football.

[Diggers]

A few dozen games? Think you might want to check your facts there Super, if you look at Dele Alli's stats they will bear comparison with any young player in Europe. 70 appearance, 28 goals, 16 assists. Those numbers are amazing for someone who is 21, and he also served his time in the lower leagues.

[super_realist]

           Get real Ben.

Alli is a pretty decent player, but 100m? Come on. The highest fee in the history of Football for a guy who's only played two seasons for Spurs and has won nothing?

Only one English club would consider such a preposterous fee. Foreign clubs don't want to spend anything like that on an English player.

[beninho]

Dele Alli has shown already that he is a very good player, he has performed for two seasons in the premier league, he is 21 years old and has potentially 12/13 years ahead of him. Is Kylian Mbappe is being touted at 90m+ then Alli is right up there.

Everyone agrees that the transfer market is bonkers, but its become fairly consistent in that players are costing more and more, and young proven players cost top whack. Just because you or me or whoever doesnt rate someone it doesnt mean they wont cost silly money.

[super_realist]

It's absurd to think that ANY young player could break the world transfer record.
I'm not saying the transfer market isn't bonkers enough that he'd make silly money, but £100 million for an English player is LAUGHABLE.

[beninho]

but 85m for a welshman is not?

Anyway, I think you have shown up your lack of football knowledge by bringing Dele Alli into it. Any one with a reasonable football knowledge can tell how good he is and how much he would cost in todays market.

[super_realist]

Bale was probably the most outstanding player in Europe at the time, great seasons at Tottenham and Southampton. Alli has never ever been considered in that bracket. Not that he was worth it either.

To think the World Transfer Record would get smashed by over 10million for Alli is hilarious.

[beninho]

Just because you make me laugh, how much for Harry Kane?

[super_realist]

I was about to say Kane actually as he's probably the best English player around. He'd be worth a big transfer fee, especially as he's more established, but then again when Vardy was knocking them in like no one else in the country he hardly had the big clubs after him. A slight rumour about Arsenal, but nothing concrete. So perhaps big clubs outside of the insular UK just don't fancy British players by and large.

The trouble with English/British players and their values to European team is this: English/British players have a tradition of not doing too well abroad, not settling, not integrating and not maintaining the form that took them there in the first place so why would they risk a massive fee on them when they can get a fellow European who is cultured and intelligent for half the price? Better to leave the over-priced Brits to teams like Man City who carry on like they're on Championship Manager.

[dynamark]

We had Kane at Leicester on loan and nothing special there is a pic of Kane and Vardy on the subs bench from about 4 years ago !
But both moved forward albeit a bit later on age wise for Vardy.He is not a huge money player because of his age and the team has to play in a certain way to suit him.
Still amazed no one is offering big fee for Riyad Mahrez he was head and shoulders best player earlier today v \west Brom.
No thread on BBC salaries-if I never hear Chris Evans voice again I will be happy.
Super another one for your hit list.

[SmithersJones]

Super: It's black
A N Other: It's not as simple as black and white
Super: Well obviously not, I didn't expect anyone to take me literally - black is just the particular shade of grey I happened to use as an analogy

[Roller_Coaster]

One day someone will mention a person/celebrity/sportsperson that super likes, actually likes and praises.

And will break the internet

[Diggers]

He's always seemed to like Soren Kjeldsen. A competent, unassuming, bit better than journeyman pro. Take from that what you will.

[Roller_Coaster]

bch DGY' FDSHGbf p78e ;UG F

iNTERNET BROKEN

[raycastleunited]

The trouble with English/British players and their values to European team is this: English/British players have a tradition of not doing too well abroad, not settling, not integrating and not maintaining the form that took them there in the first place so why would they risk a massive fee on them when they can get a fellow European who is cultured and intelligent for half the price?

Really? Are you going back to the 80s and Ian Rush? Considering hardly any English / British players have gone abroad at all in recent years that's an odd comment.

[super_realist]

It's an observation. When was the last time a Brit was successful playing abroad? Other than Bale.

Why would any club risk a British player when throughout history virtually none have settled and performed?

[Mad for Chelsea]

Of the big European leagues, it's really only traditionally French and Spanish players who've tended to leave and play abroad IMO. In recent years a few more Germans have done it. Not many top Italians play outside Italy: in recent years I can think of Zola who played a few years at Chelsea at the end of his career, but hardly any others. Obviously the stars from the "smaller" leagues tend to leave quite quickly, e.g. Portugal, Netherlands, also the South Americans. I suspect Scottish top players would find themselves playing outside Scotland also, but currently there aren't any.

For what it's worth Steve McManaman was pretty successful at Real Madrid IIRC, albeit he played less and less as his time there went on. Perhaps not entirely his fault, as that was the era when Real really started going for the galacticos ideal (McManaman, fine player though he was, could hardly be described as such) ,and he certainly contributed to plenty of silverware. The only other English international I can think of who left the EPL is Michael Owen, whose spell at Madrid was not exactly a huge success.

[Eyetoldyouso]

Gary Lineker did well at Barcelona; also Glenn Hoddle at Monaco, Keegan at Hamburg, Chris Waddle at Marseilles and David Platt did OK at Sampdoria.
And I know that Liam Brady isn't English but he learnt his trade in English football and he did very well at Juventus where he is still greatly revered.

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