Ulster Rugby 2017-18

First topic message reminder :

Director of Rugby Les Kiss  
Head Coach Jono Gibbes  
Assistant Coach Dwayne Peel
Scrum Coach Aaron Dundon  
Skills Coach Niall Malone


Players In
John Cooney from Connacht
Schalk van der Merwe from Southern Kings
Jean Deysel from Sharks
David Busby promoted from Academy
Aaron Cairns promoted from Academy
Ross Kane promoted from Academy
Rob Lyttle promoted from Academy
Tommy O'Hagan promoted from Academy
Jack Owens promoted from Academy

Players Out
Franco van der Merwe to Cardiff Blues
Roger Wilson retired
Conor Joyce to Jersey Reds
Mark Best to Jersey Reds
Jonny Murphy to Rotherham Titans
Ruan Pienaar to Montpellier
John Donnan released
Lorcan Dow released
Ricky Lutton released
Stephen Mulholland released

Ulster Rugby 2017/18 Senior Playing Squad

Rodney Ah You (18 ULS, 3 IRE)
John Andrew (27 ULS)
Rory Best (198 ULS, 104 IRE)
Callum Black (128 ULS)
Tommy Bowe (150 ULS, 69 IRE)
Peter Browne (31 ULS)
David Busby (2 ULS)
Aaron Cairns (1 ULS)
Darren Cave (193 ULS, 11 IRE)
Marcell Coetzee (4 ULS, 28 SA)
John Cooney (0 ULS, 1 IRE)
Jean Deysel (0 ULS, 4 SA)
Robbie Diack (193 ULS, 2 IRE)
Craig Gilroy (149 ULS, 10 IRE)
Iain Henderson (74 ULS, 32 IRE)
Chris Henry (165 ULS, 24 IRE)
Wiehahn Herbst (54 ULS)
Rob Herring (120 ULS, 1 IRE)
Brett Herron (7 ULS)
Paddy Jackson (123 ULS, 25 IRE)
Ross Kane (11 ULS)
Louis Ludik (54 ULS)
Robert Lyttle (8 ULS)
Luke Marshall (104 ULS, 11 IRE)
Paul Marshall (195 ULS, 3 IRE)
Kyle McCall (36 ULS)
Stuart McCloskey (58 ULS, 1 IRE)
Johnny McPhillips
Peter Nelson (37 ULS)
Alan O'Connor (39 ULS)
Tommy O'Hagan
Stuart Olding (62 ULS, 4 IRE)
Jack Owens (1 ULS)
Callum Patterson
Jared Payne (78 ULS, 20 IRE)
Charles Piutau (23 ULS, 16 NZ)
Matthew Rea
Sean Reidy (58 ULS, 2 IRE)
Clive Ross (52 ULS)
David Shanahan (13 ULS)
Jonny Simpson (4 ULS)
Jacob Stockdale (24 ULS, 2 IRE)
Kieran Treadwell (21 ULS, 2 IRE)
Andrew Trimble (217 ULS, 70 IRE)
Schalk van der Merwe
Andrew Warwick (74 ULS)

No he said

Nothing has been locked away yet - it is something in the pipeline

That is not the same as no deal, that could mean that but it could also mean that he has just recovered from a pretty serious illness and the medical end of things need to be sown up, it can mean his work permit isn't through yet or it could mean that it's just not announced yet and I don't want to announce it before Ulster do.

It would be a great idea to call of the deal and go back to square one, no one would ever want to deal with him again

"Thus far, the 29-year-old has been linked with Pro14 side Ulster.
However, Lealiifano has diluted the accuracy of the rumours when he stated that his future is at the Brumbies."

I know this probably means nothing, just some journo using artistic licence with the wording but is there smoke without the fire? We all know his future is with the Brumbies but a while at Ravespan wouldn't conflict with that surely.

The Great Aukster wrote: If Logan was saying a new 10 was sorted - who told him that, when it wasn't? Presumably if he was a strong leader he should summarily dismiss whomever gave him the wrong information?
Logan presided over both Humphreys and Cunningham so if the leaks were plugged after Humphreys left then the implication is that Logan has only been issuing the information as presented to him - why would he suddenly compromise Cunningham's tight-lipped policy of his own volition having adhered to it for the past three years?

in A word Logan panic.
When the Poopie hits the fan he goes into meltdown.
It happened when Humphreys expectedly left.

The Great Aukster wrote: What I'm waiting for are the names of the players that Bryn has signed who are stellar and set to become Ulster Legends.

The reason we don't sign such stars are
1 - we don't have the same money. The IRFU gave us a short term boost and we still didn't win anything
2 - people don't find Belfast an attractive location - even the Munster and Leinster players wont come here.
Also I would have thought Piatau fits the bill

The Great Aukster wrote: Humphreys for all his faults signed Muller and Pienaar, and resigned Tommy Bowe - all Ulster legends. He rehabilitated Nick Williams as a force when Pedrie was forced out and Afoa for all his faults was world class. Jared Payne hasn't been too shabby either and his emergency replacement Terblanche was a revelation. He also signed Dan Roach and Ruaridgh Murphy, so everyone has their Tamati Horua moments.

Humphreys did very well getting Muller buts lets be clear - Pienaer, Wanneberg, Terblanche all come here because of him not Humphreys
As for Williams it was Anscombe that secured that one
As for Bowe he would have come back regardless of who was recruiting and to be honest came back past his best and is now the most overpaid player in the squad

None of those 5 can be put down to Humphreys
Afoa gave us 1 excellent season, 1 ok one and 1 poor one - again for what we got the phrase overpaid comes to mind (plus his travelling arrangements were ridiculous)

Wasps team:

15. Rob Miller
14. Marcus Watson
13. Brendan Macken
12. Gaby Lovobalavu
11. Josh Bassett
10. Danny Cipriani
9. Craig Hampson
1. Simon McIntyre
2. Ashley Johnson
3. Jake Cooper-Woolley
4. Will Rowlands
5. Kearnan Myall
6. Jack Willis
7. Guy Thompson
8. Alex Rieder

16. Tom Cruse
17. Ben Harris
18. Paul Doran-Jones
19. Matt Symons
20. Marcus Garratt
21. Antonio TJ Harris
22. Dan Robson
23. Juan De Jongh
24. Guy Armitage
25. Christian Wade
26. Owain James

Caleb Montgomery is, I believe, a Lock who plays for Belfast Quins

Not seen him play

geoff999rugby wrote:Caleb Montgomery is, I believe, a Lock who plays for Belfast Quins

Not seen him play

I knew the name rang a bell, he's the kid they're taking a look at from Armagh is it? Played some club rugby in France and NZ and was club

marty2086 wrote:No he said

Nothing has been locked away yet - it is something in the pipeline

That is not the same as no deal, that could mean that but it could also mean that he has just recovered from a pretty serious illness and the medical end of things need to be sown up, it can mean his work permit isn't through yet or it could mean that it's just not announced yet and I don't want to announce it before Ulster do.

It would be a great idea to call of the deal and go back to square one, no one would ever want to deal with him again

Doesn't sound like he thinks he's done a deal, and there is still zip from Cunningham or Kiss for that matter. Continued speculation cannot be good for squad morale so close to the start of the season.

Deals are brokered on trust and if one party breaks that trust the other is perfectly entitled to walk away. Far from being a pariah, future negotiators know exactly where they stand and are more likely to respect integrity over duplicity.

geoff999rugby wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:  If Logan was saying a new 10 was sorted - who told him that, when it wasn't? Presumably if he was a strong leader he should summarily dismiss whomever gave him the wrong information?
Logan presided over both Humphreys and Cunningham so if the leaks were plugged after Humphreys left then the implication is that Logan has only been issuing the information as presented to him - why would he suddenly compromise Cunningham's tight-lipped policy of his own volition having adhered to it for the past three years?

in A word Logan panic.
When the Poopie hits the fan he goes into meltdown.
It happened when Humphreys expectedly left.

The Great Aukster wrote: What I'm waiting for are the names of the players that Bryn has signed who are stellar and set to become Ulster Legends.  

The reason we don't sign such stars are
1 - we don't have the same money. The IRFU gave us a short term boost and we still didn't win anything
2 - people don't find Belfast an attractive location - even the Munster and Leinster players wont come here.
Also I would have thought Piatau fits the bill

The Great Aukster wrote: Humphreys for all his faults signed Muller and Pienaar, and resigned Tommy Bowe - all Ulster legends. He rehabilitated Nick Williams as a force when Pedrie was forced out and Afoa for all his faults was world class. Jared Payne hasn't been too shabby either and his emergency replacement Terblanche was a revelation. He also signed Dan Roach and Ruaridgh Murphy, so everyone has their Tamati Horua moments.  

Humphreys did very well getting Muller buts lets be clear - Pienaer, Wanneberg, Terblanche all come here because of him not Humphreys
As for Williams it was Anscombe that secured that one
As for Bowe he would have come back regardless of who was recruiting and to be honest came back past his best and is now the most overpaid player in the squad

None of those 5 can be put down to Humphreys
Afoa gave us 1 excellent season, 1 ok one and 1 poor one - again for what we got the phrase overpaid comes to mind (plus his travelling arrangements were ridiculous)

When Humphreys left he dropped UR into the brown stuff because he gave no notice - not sure Logan did a lot wrong facing the cameras.
OTOH it has been known for long enough that Jackson had a problem. Kiss, Cunningham and even Gibbes have had time to make plans without panic. If there is panic it is because they have failed to deliver.
Marty thinks a deal has been brokered and it is just the detail being thrashed out - in which case Logan was justified in his statement. It doesn't sound like a deal to me so why would Logan say anything - he has nothing to gain and there is no pressure to say anything.

BTW Piutau hardly fits the bill of an Ulster Legend - two seasons and he's off! You must think despite everything Ulster are on for the League and Cup double?

ps. If he did manage that with Ulster they would be crazy to let him go wouldn't they?

The Great Aukster wrote:

marty2086 wrote:No he said

Nothing has been locked away yet - it is something in the pipeline

That is not the same as no deal, that could mean that but it could also mean that he has just recovered from a pretty serious illness and the medical end of things need to be sown up, it can mean his work permit isn't through yet or it could mean that it's just not announced yet and I don't want to announce it before Ulster do.

It would be a great idea to call of the deal and go back to square one, no one would ever want to deal with him again

Doesn't sound like he thinks he's done a deal, and there is still zip from Cunningham or Kiss for that matter. Continued speculation cannot be good for squad morale so close to the start of the season.

Deals are brokered on trust and if one party breaks that trust the other is perfectly entitled to walk away. Far from being a pariah, future negotiators know exactly where they stand and are more likely to respect integrity over duplicity.

You're complaining both about too much information and not enough information?

Ulster seem to be in freefall.

Is the IRFU going to assign them the role of development province and promote Connacht to the big time?

Perhaps time to revive Meath?

With the new 10, there is a good chance there are delays at the home office, so it is taking longer than expected.
If it is Lealiifano is that a surprise? If I had just recovered from cancer and tried to get an Australian visa I wouldnt have a fecking chance.
Logan shouldn't have mentioned it, but the support was demanding a signing.

On another note, an axis of Marshall and Herron tonight? FFS who would want to pay for that, I would rather have Jonny Stewart and absolutely anyone... At least there would be some potential then

toml wrote:If it is Lealiifano is that a surprise? If I had just recovered from cancer and tried to get an Australian visa I wouldnt have a fecking chance.

If the Home Office use the same people DWP use to decide if he's fit for work he shouldn't have any problem

toml wrote:On another note, an axis of Marshall and Herron tonight? FFS who would want to pay for that, I would rather have Jonny Stewart and absolutely anyone... At least there would be some potential then

Stewart was playing in Georgia for the U20s so maybe being eased back in?

The Great Aukster wrote:BTW Piutau hardly fits the bill of an Ulster Legend - two seasons and he's off! You must think despite everything Ulster are on for the League and Cup double?

ps. If he did manage that with Ulster they would be crazy to let him go wouldn't they?

If Piatau doesn't count then neither does Afoa, or indeed Williams, who you listed - you cant have it both ways

As for letting him go the reality is he cant wait to get back to England - also we, rightly, would not (and could not) match the £1million a year Bristol are paying
This is the big missing him most people don't want to come here - Pienaer is very much an exception

The Great Aukster wrote: When Humphreys left he dropped UR into the brown stuff because he gave no notice - not sure Logan did a lot wrong facing the cameras.
OTOH it has been known for long enough that Jackson had a problem. Kiss, Cunningham and even Gibbes have had time to make plans without panic. If there is panic it is because they have failed to deliver.
Marty thinks a deal has been brokered and it is just the detail being thrashed out - in which case Logan was justified in his statement. It doesn't sound like a deal to me so why would Logan say anything - he has nothing to gain and there is no pressure to say anything.

When Humphreys left and Logan realised he also had to get rid of Anscombe, because of his behaviour, he went into melt down.
Given he knows nothing about rugby he did know what to do, he had lost his crutch.
Fortunately Muller steadied the ship and gave him guidance - if he hadn't been there I honestly believe the IRFU would have had to, directly, intervene.

Our coaching staff are constrained by two big things - money and the fact Belfast is, for most, an unattractive destination.
I am not convinced the club believed the 2 players would be charged.
I do believe we have only been looking since they have been and given the timeframe that is not easy.

Regarding money I did say signing Donald was not constrained financially, the same is true for Lealiifano.
Neither, for different reasons, are top dollar.
However we do not have the money to go for a lot of players.
If you know a 10 of the required standard who would come here I am sure the coaching staff would be delighted.

As for Logan my anger, on this issue, can be summarised by the following 2 points:
- He said we have been searching for a year - I believe that to do a complete and utter lie
- He has been saying everything is sorted re a new FH - that is also a lie.

When under pressure he tends to get creative with the truth in order to take the pressure of himself.
Prior to this year he would be out and about with the players and fans - things were going ok.
This last year he has been noticeable by his absence - to me a sign of managerial weakness.

marty2086 wrote: Stewart was playing in Georgia for the U20s so maybe being eased back in?

Correct Marty anyone who was on the Lions tour or a representative Ireland tour was not considered

Cyril wrote:Ulster seem to be in freefall.

Is the IRFU going to assign them the role of development province and promote Connacht to the big time?

Perhaps time to revive Meath?

O look the Poopie stirrer has reappeared to make a pointless contribution.

We are missing 1 key player that is it - Cardiff and Dragons would die to be in that position

Come back to us when 50% of the Welsh teams (Cardiff and Dragons) win anything meaningful in the professional era ever.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Cyril wrote:Ulster seem to be in freefall.

Is the IRFU going to assign them the role of development province and promote Connacht to the big time?

Perhaps time to revive Meath?

O look the Poopie stirrer has reappeared to make a pointless contribution.

We are missing 1 key player that is it - Cardiff and Dragons would die to be in that position

Come back to us when 50% of the Welsh teams (Cardiff and Dragons) win anything meaningful in the professional era ever.

You realise Cyril is English ? Nice to see you show your true colours against the Welsh though

geoff999rugby wrote:

Cyril wrote:Ulster seem to be in freefall.

Is the IRFU going to assign them the role of development province and promote Connacht to the big time?

Perhaps time to revive Meath?

O look the Poopie stirrer has reappeared to make a pointless contribution.

We are missing 1 key player that is it - Cardiff and Dragons would die to be in that position

Come back to us when 50% of the Welsh teams (Cardiff and Dragons) win anything meaningful in the professional era ever.

No need to feed the troll

Cyril is a twit Geoff, ignore his moronic posts.

I know I should.

Munkian simple error - I latched on to a pro Welsh post he made some time back and for some reason it has stuck with me.
Will try and eradicate from my memory

Should just remember Cyril does not sound very Welsh

Believe it or not I have three very good rugby mates and they are an Irishman, a Welshman and an Englishman

Must be a joke in there somewhere

geoff999rugby wrote:I know I should.

Munkian simple error - I latched on to a pro Welsh post he made some time back and for some reason it has stuck with me.
Will try and eradicate from my memory

Should just remember Cyril does not sound very Welsh

Believe it or not I have three very good rugby mates and they are an Irishman, a Welshman and an Englishman

Must be a joke in there somewhere

Always thought you had it in for the Scots Geoff!

geoff999rugby wrote:Believe it or not I have three very good rugby mates and they are an Irishman, a Welshman and an Englishman

Must be a joke in there somewhere

Should all head to a bar and try and think of one

"Should just remember Cyril does not sound very Welsh"

I just said it in a Welsh accent and it sounds very Welsh Geoff

An Irishman, a Welshman and an Englishman walk into a bar. They spark up a conversation about Rugby.
The Welshman walked out because the Englishman wouldn't let him join in

Pete330v2 wrote:An Irishman, a Welshman and an Englishman walk into a bar. They spark up a conversation about Rugby.
The Welshman walked out because the Englishman wouldn't let him join in

Did he blame the Irishman for it too?

geoff999rugby wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:BTW Piutau hardly fits the bill of an Ulster Legend - two seasons and he's off! You must think despite everything Ulster are on for the League and Cup double?

ps. If he did manage that with Ulster they would be crazy to let him go wouldn't they?

If Piatau doesn't count then neither does Afoa, or indeed Williams, who you listed - you cant have it both ways

As for letting him go the reality is he cant wait to get back to England - also we, rightly, would not (and could not) match the £1million a year Bristol are paying
This is the big missing him most people don't want to come here - Pienaer is very much an exception

Afoa came to Ulster as a World Champion - Piutau wasn't selected for his one. John has more than double the AB caps that Charles has and was at Ulster longer. However neither were offered a contract extension which is probably a pre-requisite of being an Ulster Legend, so stroke Afoa off. Williams OTOH was offered an extension so ticks that box - remind me ho many signings has Bryn made who have been offered extensions?

marty2086 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

marty2086 wrote:No he said

Nothing has been locked away yet - it is something in the pipeline

That is not the same as no deal, that could mean that but it could also mean that he has just recovered from a pretty serious illness and the medical end of things need to be sown up, it can mean his work permit isn't through yet or it could mean that it's just not announced yet and I don't want to announce it before Ulster do.

It would be a great idea to call of the deal and go back to square one, no one would ever want to deal with him again

Doesn't sound like he thinks he's done a deal, and there is still zip from Cunningham or Kiss for that matter. Continued speculation cannot be good for squad morale so close to the start of the season.

Deals are brokered on trust and if one party breaks that trust the other is perfectly entitled to walk away. Far from being a pariah, future negotiators know exactly where they stand and are more likely to respect integrity over duplicity.

You're complaining both about too much information and not enough information?

Timing has to be taken into context.
Before the information reached the public domain, everyone who was involved in the negotiation had the responsibility to keep it private until an agreement could be established - the responsibility of the Team Manager.
After the cat was out of the bag it was the prerogative of UR to manage the situation by putting their slant on the information. This has to come from the people who know the information - ie the Team Manager. Maybe it was admirable of Logan to cover for his absentee Team Manager's botched signing, or maybe he was fed wrong information, or maybe he quailed in press room, but whichever way there should have been a statement since with Bryn's and or Kiss's name(s) at the bottom.

The Great Aukster wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:BTW Piutau hardly fits the bill of an Ulster Legend - two seasons and he's off! You must think despite everything Ulster are on for the League and Cup double?

ps. If he did manage that with Ulster they would be crazy to let him go wouldn't they?

If Piatau doesn't count then neither does Afoa, or indeed Williams, who you listed - you cant have it both ways

As for letting him go the reality is he cant wait to get back to England - also we, rightly, would not (and could not) match the £1million a year Bristol are paying
This is the big missing him most people don't want to come here - Pienaer is very much an exception

Afoa came to Ulster as a World Champion - Piutau wasn't selected for his one. John has more than double the AB caps that Charles has and was at Ulster longer. However neither were offered a contract extension which is probably a pre-requisite of being an Ulster Legend, so stroke Afoa off. Williams OTOH was offered an extension so ticks that box - remind me ho many signings has Bryn made who have been offered extensions?

Bryns only be in the job 3 years, pretty much everyone he signed is still on the original contract they signed or gone. Piutau was pretty much his first signing and has a yet to finish his contract

The Great Aukster wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

marty2086 wrote:No he said

Nothing has been locked away yet - it is something in the pipeline

That is not the same as no deal, that could mean that but it could also mean that he has just recovered from a pretty serious illness and the medical end of things need to be sown up, it can mean his work permit isn't through yet or it could mean that it's just not announced yet and I don't want to announce it before Ulster do.

It would be a great idea to call of the deal and go back to square one, no one would ever want to deal with him again

Doesn't sound like he thinks he's done a deal, and there is still zip from Cunningham or Kiss for that matter. Continued speculation cannot be good for squad morale so close to the start of the season.

Deals are brokered on trust and if one party breaks that trust the other is perfectly entitled to walk away. Far from being a pariah, future negotiators know exactly where they stand and are more likely to respect integrity over duplicity.

You're complaining both about too much information and not enough information?

Timing has to be taken into context.
Before the information reached the public domain, everyone who was involved in the negotiation had the responsibility to keep it private until an agreement could be established - the responsibility of the Team Manager.
After the cat was out of the bag it was the prerogative of UR to manage the situation by putting their slant on the information. This has to come from the people who know the information - ie the Team Manager. Maybe it was admirable of Logan to cover for his absentee Team Manager's botched signing, or maybe he was fed wrong information, or maybe he quailed in press room, but whichever way there should have been a statement since with Bryn's and or Kiss's name(s) at the bottom.

He's Operation Director not Team Manger.

You left out that maybe you don't know what's going on and are complaining for no reason at the minute

geoff999rugby wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:   When Humphreys left he dropped UR into the brown stuff because he gave no notice - not sure Logan did a lot wrong facing the cameras.
OTOH it has been known for long enough that Jackson had a problem. Kiss, Cunningham and even Gibbes have had time to make plans without panic. If there is panic it is because they have failed to deliver.
Marty thinks a deal has been brokered and it is just the detail being thrashed out - in which case Logan was justified in his statement. It doesn't sound like a deal to me so why would Logan say anything - he has nothing to gain and there is no pressure to say anything.

When Humphreys left and Logan realised he also had to get rid of Anscombe, because of his behaviour, he went into melt down.
Given he knows nothing about rugby he did know what to do, he had lost his crutch.
Fortunately Muller steadied the ship and gave him guidance - if he hadn't been there I honestly believe the IRFU would have had to, directly, intervene.

Our coaching staff are constrained by two big things - money and the fact Belfast is, for most, an unattractive destination.
I am not convinced the club believed the 2 players would be charged.
I do believe we have only been looking since they have been and given the timeframe that is not easy.

Regarding money I did say signing Donald was not constrained financially, the same is true for Lealiifano.
Neither, for different reasons, are top dollar.
However we do not have the money to go for a lot of players.
If you know a 10 of the required standard who would come here I am sure the coaching staff would be delighted.

As for Logan my anger, on this issue, can be summarised by the following 2 points:
- He said we have been searching for a year - I believe that to do a complete and utter lie
- He has been saying everything is sorted re a new FH - that is also a lie.

When under pressure  he tends to get creative with the truth in order to take the pressure of himself.
Prior to this year he would be out and about with the players and fans - things were going ok.
This last year he has been noticeable by his absence - to me a sign of managerial weakness.

If I was was being paid six figures plus plus and my job was to find a 10 I am sure I would have found him long before now. The problem is that the current incumbent hasn't. We can speculate who said what but the bald truth is that Ulster do not have a recognised 10 available for this season. You may recall I also highlighted this last season? Even if Jackson had been available, Ulster were one injury away from not having a game managing 10 because Ruan has gone. Ulster knew they needed another 10 this season irrespective of the court case.
As you say Logan "knows nothing about rugby", so how is it his fault when those that are employed to know about rugby cannot see the gaping hole in the squad?
The exact same thing happened when it became absolutely certain that Pienaar's contract wasn't going to be renewed - i.e. when the LAST contract extension was announced, yet Bryn throws up his hands rather than using the time in between to find better alternatives?

I'm not buying the dull Belfast bull either. It is as an attractive place to come as most others - have a look on Tripadvisor. From a rugby perspective there is a passionate crowd, a top class coaching team and world class training facilities. Maybe it isn't being sold too well - have to wonder who is in charge of the selling?

marty2086 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

marty2086 wrote:No he said

Nothing has been locked away yet - it is something in the pipeline

That is not the same as no deal, that could mean that but it could also mean that he has just recovered from a pretty serious illness and the medical end of things need to be sown up, it can mean his work permit isn't through yet or it could mean that it's just not announced yet and I don't want to announce it before Ulster do.

It would be a great idea to call of the deal and go back to square one, no one would ever want to deal with him again

Doesn't sound like he thinks he's done a deal, and there is still zip from Cunningham or Kiss for that matter. Continued speculation cannot be good for squad morale so close to the start of the season.

Deals are brokered on trust and if one party breaks that trust the other is perfectly entitled to walk away. Far from being a pariah, future negotiators know exactly where they stand and are more likely to respect integrity over duplicity.

You're complaining both about too much information and not enough information?

Timing has to be taken into context.
Before the information reached the public domain, everyone who was involved in the negotiation had the responsibility to keep it private until an agreement could be established - the responsibility of the Team Manager.
After the cat was out of the bag it was the prerogative of UR to manage the situation by putting their slant on the information. This has to come from the people who know the information - ie the Team Manager. Maybe it was admirable of Logan to cover for his absentee Team Manager's botched signing, or maybe he was fed wrong information, or maybe he quailed in press room, but whichever way there should have been a statement since with Bryn's and or Kiss's name(s) at the bottom.

He's Operation Director not Team Manger.

You left out that maybe you don't know what's going on and are complaining for no reason at the minute

Ah yes Bryn got a title change last year to become what David Humphreys started with for his first couple of years before becoming DoR. It's also interesting that Bryn's role is described exactly the same as it was when he started as Team Manager in the UR bulletin.
Titles are fine, but maybe it's the resultant work that should be scrutinised more closely?

The Great Aukster wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:BTW Piutau hardly fits the bill of an Ulster Legend - two seasons and he's off! You must think despite everything Ulster are on for the League and Cup double?

ps. If he did manage that with Ulster they would be crazy to let him go wouldn't they?

If Piatau doesn't count then neither does Afoa, or indeed Williams, who you listed - you cant have it both ways

As for letting him go the reality is he cant wait to get back to England - also we, rightly, would not (and could not) match the £1million a year Bristol are paying
This is the big missing him most people don't want to come here - Pienaer is very much an exception

Afoa came to Ulster as a World Champion - Piutau wasn't selected for his one. John has more than double the AB caps that Charles has and was at Ulster longer. However neither were offered a contract extension which is probably a pre-requisite of being an Ulster Legend, so stroke Afoa off. Williams OTOH was offered an extension so ticks that box - remind me ho many signings has Bryn made who have been offered extensions?

So getting offered an extension makes you an Ulster Legend ???

Step forward Paul Marshall Ulster legend
Hell step forward Chris Cochrane Ulster legend !!

So would you offer Piatau £1million a year to match the Bristol price ?

What a totally bizarre yardstick for determining a) a legend and b) the quality of the recruitment

   

The Great Aukster wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

marty2086 wrote:No he said

Nothing has been locked away yet - it is something in the pipeline

That is not the same as no deal, that could mean that but it could also mean that he has just recovered from a pretty serious illness and the medical end of things need to be sown up, it can mean his work permit isn't through yet or it could mean that it's just not announced yet and I don't want to announce it before Ulster do.

It would be a great idea to call of the deal and go back to square one, no one would ever want to deal with him again

Doesn't sound like he thinks he's done a deal, and there is still zip from Cunningham or Kiss for that matter. Continued speculation cannot be good for squad morale so close to the start of the season.

Deals are brokered on trust and if one party breaks that trust the other is perfectly entitled to walk away. Far from being a pariah, future negotiators know exactly where they stand and are more likely to respect integrity over duplicity.

You're complaining both about too much information and not enough information?

Timing has to be taken into context.
Before the information reached the public domain, everyone who was involved in the negotiation had the responsibility to keep it private until an agreement could be established - the responsibility of the Team Manager.
After the cat was out of the bag it was the prerogative of UR to manage the situation by putting their slant on the information. This has to come from the people who know the information - ie the Team Manager. Maybe it was admirable of Logan to cover for his absentee Team Manager's botched signing, or maybe he was fed wrong information, or maybe he quailed in press room, but whichever way there should have been a statement since with Bryn's and or Kiss's name(s) at the bottom.

He's Operation Director not Team Manger.

You left out that maybe you don't know what's going on and are complaining for no reason at the minute

Ah yes Bryn got a title change last year to become what David Humphreys started with for his first couple of years before becoming DoR. It's also interesting that Bryn's role is described exactly the same as it was when he started as Team Manager in the UR bulletin.
Titles are fine, but maybe it's the resultant work that should be scrutinised more closely?

The man who let the cat out of the bag was the CEO - Bryn didn't

Blame Logan for the PR mess

Its always great to see the fans so optimistic going into a season

marty2086 wrote:Its always great to see the fans so optimistic going into a season

I'm quietly optimistic. So quiet it's barely audible but optimistic never the less.

To be honest with better coaching, particularly of the forwards, the lose of the cancerous bun fight within the coaching set up so am I.

We have a rejuvenated Hendo alongside Coetzee and Deysel - now we have some players to put fear into the opposition.
Treadwell can only get better and a specialist front row coach should improve our performances at scrum time.

Backs are a bit of a problem with no Pienaer or Jackson but Cooney is a decent player and, if we get an adequate 10 we could still shine.
Still plenty of talent out wide Stockdale, Marshall, Piatau, Trimble etc non too shabby

We are also lucky enough to be in the weaker conference.
Getting a 10 is key though

Im optimistic if we can keep everyone fit but we are seriously short of depth and are an injury or two from disaster

I think both Bryn and Logan have their positives and negatives, Bryns brought in quality in some key areas though the Piutau signing baffles me as it wasn't needed from a playing perspective and that money could have helped stock some quality in other areas. Logan for all his faults has turned the club around and when Humphreys left us in the lurch he split the responsibilities across different positions meaning there isn't a short fall if one person leaves.

Tonight's game by the way is being streamed live

marty2086 wrote:Tonight's game by the way is being streamed live

Is that on Bakebook or BBC sport?

geoff999rugby wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:BTW Piutau hardly fits the bill of an Ulster Legend - two seasons and he's off! You must think despite everything Ulster are on for the League and Cup double?

ps. If he did manage that with Ulster they would be crazy to let him go wouldn't they?

If Piatau doesn't count then neither does Afoa, or indeed Williams, who you listed - you cant have it both ways

As for letting him go the reality is he cant wait to get back to England - also we, rightly, would not (and could not) match the £1million a year Bristol are paying
This is the big missing him most people don't want to come here - Pienaer is very much an exception

Afoa came to Ulster as a World Champion - Piutau wasn't selected for his one. John has more than double the AB caps that Charles has and was at Ulster longer. However neither were offered a contract extension which is probably a pre-requisite of being an Ulster Legend, so stroke Afoa off. Williams OTOH was offered an extension so ticks that box - remind me ho many signings has Bryn made who have been offered extensions?

So getting offered an extension makes you an Ulster Legend ???

Step forward Paul Marshall Ulster legend
Hell step forward Chris Cochrane Ulster legend !!

So would you offer Piatau £1million a year to match the Bristol price ?

What a totally bizarre yardstick for determining a) a legend and b) the quality of the recruitment

   

Sorry Geoff I should have explained what 'prerequisite' means:
'a thing that is required as a prior condition for something else to happen or exist'. In other words it is extremely likely that any player who could be remotely classed as an Ulster legend will have been offered at least one contract extension. So who has Cunningham has signed that meets that basic criterion?

You suggested that Piutau was Bryn's (singular) signing that indicated he knew what he was doing regarding recruiting elite players. I thought he was a good signing despite many fans who weren't at all happy with the signing of a back three player when there were bigger gaps to plug in the squad. However the quality of the player was never in question rather how he was handled.
First there was the public wrangle with the NZRU over whether CP should still be eligible for the World Cup, and that probably cost him his place in the squad (and did Ulster no favours for future enquiries). Then NZRU kept everyone guessing as to whether they would include him after all and effectively blocked any slim chance (that may or may not have existed) of him starting the club season with Ulster. Then Wasps got the march on Ulster and put him in the limelight for the 15-16 season, inflating his NH price and no doubt his aspirations. Then his first season at Ulster dwindles out as his head is elsewhere maybe getting turned once again by big money and the chance to reignite his AP success - some of his commitment in later performances was reminiscent of Joeli Veitayaki. Now some eejit at Bristol thinks it might be good to release the news that he's moving and they get to watch him dodder about for a season in a half-hearted way - no doubt citing UR as the reason. From start to inevitable finish it has been amateur night, so no I would not offer him £1m to stay - he was already lost when the Wasps deal was announced.

You always maintained that money wasn't an issue at Ulster and maybe it's not, so perhaps it is value for money that is the nub of the problem. If Bryn is only buying contracts with pound notes then Ulster are doomed, as they simply won't outbid the more heavily funded Franglos for players UR consider overpriced. Yet other Pro12 sides are attracting better talent than Ulster, so how is that achieved - perhaps a bit more creativity in dealing with potential recruits from the Operation Director (Professional Team) would help?

brain was on Newsline tonight and he said that there would likely be news on the next couple of days.he said the contract was very complex 'with alot of moving parts'.
He neither confirmed nor denied it was Lealiifano

toml wrote:brain was on Newsline tonight and he said that there would likely be news on the next couple of days.he said the contract was very complex 'with alot of moving parts'.
He neither confirmed nor denied it was Lealiifano

It gave the BBC interviewer (his name eludes me) the first chance to make a complete hash of simply saying the name Leali'ifano.

toml wrote:brain was on Newsline tonight and he said that there would likely be news on the next couple of days.he said the contract was very complex 'with alot of moving parts'.
He neither confirmed nor denied it was Lealiifano

Didn't someone on here say that was likely the case

Ulster showing some creativity in attack and getting a try from it, who'd have thunk it

Patchy game.

Timoney looked good, as did Mattie Rea and Montgomery when he came on. Marshall was a disaster. - Cairns might start to creep forward in the reckoning. Herron okay, but far too deep. Warwick and Ah You were the worst props. Andrew is always pretty impressive.

Deysel added a tough edge, as, bizarrely, did Diack. Black-Andrew-Herbst was a potent front row, and McCall steadied the ship.

Dunno how to feel generally. Scrum seemed to be good when we had the right personnel on. Lineout, though - excellent. That has been a big issue for us in the past. If that's sorted, that bodes very well. Don't think we lost one, and pinched at least three of theirs.

Cant agree about Black and Herbst for me they were second best

Overall pretty happy except for the props

Andrew, Cairns should be two players who are in the frame
I thought the starting locks were very good

GA

In the past money has not been a, major, problem but things are not as rosy now as they have been in the past - belt tightening required

What I did say is money was not an issue with respect to Donald or indeed Lealiifano.
There are plenty of FH out of our price bracket

With respect to the signing of Piatau, and indeed signings general, Cunningham does not decide which players to get - he is guided by others as to the type of player to get and at what price (Board, Kiss and in the case of NIQ the IRFU)
Piatau was a request to get a high profile back who had a big of razzle dazzle about him.
He was as much about commercial considerations as rugby considerations.
If goes back to that belt tightening I mention.
It would be a misunderstanding of the situation to blame him for not getting a lock or backrow - they were not considered the priority (mad I know)
Given the remit Piatau was a really good match.
Coetzee, if fit, will prove to be an excellent signing as well

Interested to know, as Ulster seem to have had some criticism for it in the past, but how many NIQs in the new season?

Currently 3 - Deysel, Coetzee, Piatau
+1 Project (3 years) - de Merwe

Assumption is Lealiifano will make it 4+1 for a temporary period finishing in February
Piatau will definitely go in the next summer

Deysel, Coetzee and de Merwe are all contracted for 2018-19

Not sure what you mean by criticism - we have always been within the old 4+1 boundary except last year when the
IRFU specifically wanted us to keep Ludik so he would meet the residency period