Ulster Rugby 2017-18

First topic message reminder :

Director of Rugby Les Kiss  
Head Coach Jono Gibbes  
Assistant Coach Dwayne Peel
Scrum Coach Aaron Dundon  
Skills Coach Niall Malone


Players In
John Cooney from Connacht
Schalk van der Merwe from Southern Kings
Jean Deysel from Sharks
David Busby promoted from Academy
Aaron Cairns promoted from Academy
Ross Kane promoted from Academy
Rob Lyttle promoted from Academy
Tommy O'Hagan promoted from Academy
Jack Owens promoted from Academy

Players Out
Franco van der Merwe to Cardiff Blues
Roger Wilson retired
Conor Joyce to Jersey Reds
Mark Best to Jersey Reds
Jonny Murphy to Rotherham Titans
Ruan Pienaar to Montpellier
John Donnan released
Lorcan Dow released
Ricky Lutton released
Stephen Mulholland released

Ulster Rugby 2017/18 Senior Playing Squad

Rodney Ah You (18 ULS, 3 IRE)
John Andrew (27 ULS)
Rory Best (198 ULS, 104 IRE)
Callum Black (128 ULS)
Tommy Bowe (150 ULS, 69 IRE)
Peter Browne (31 ULS)
David Busby (2 ULS)
Aaron Cairns (1 ULS)
Darren Cave (193 ULS, 11 IRE)
Marcell Coetzee (4 ULS, 28 SA)
John Cooney (0 ULS, 1 IRE)
Jean Deysel (0 ULS, 4 SA)
Robbie Diack (193 ULS, 2 IRE)
Craig Gilroy (149 ULS, 10 IRE)
Iain Henderson (74 ULS, 32 IRE)
Chris Henry (165 ULS, 24 IRE)
Wiehahn Herbst (54 ULS)
Rob Herring (120 ULS, 1 IRE)
Brett Herron (7 ULS)
Paddy Jackson (123 ULS, 25 IRE)
Ross Kane (11 ULS)
Louis Ludik (54 ULS)
Robert Lyttle (8 ULS)
Luke Marshall (104 ULS, 11 IRE)
Paul Marshall (195 ULS, 3 IRE)
Kyle McCall (36 ULS)
Stuart McCloskey (58 ULS, 1 IRE)
Johnny McPhillips
Peter Nelson (37 ULS)
Alan O'Connor (39 ULS)
Tommy O'Hagan
Stuart Olding (62 ULS, 4 IRE)
Jack Owens (1 ULS)
Callum Patterson
Jared Payne (78 ULS, 20 IRE)
Charles Piutau (23 ULS, 16 NZ)
Matthew Rea
Sean Reidy (58 ULS, 2 IRE)
Clive Ross (52 ULS)
David Shanahan (13 ULS)
Jonny Simpson (4 ULS)
Jacob Stockdale (24 ULS, 2 IRE)
Kieran Treadwell (21 ULS, 2 IRE)
Andrew Trimble (217 ULS, 70 IRE)
Schalk van der Merwe
Andrew Warwick (74 ULS)

Agreed, Piutau was a signing backed entirely by commercial interests, one big high profile advertisement for Ulster Rugby that wasn't the priority on the pitch. He's a class act, of that there's no doubt but he'll need to be given more gears than first or second for this season if he's to validate his signing.

Back to the match last night. It's always hard to know what to take from the first preseason game but at least it wasn't the mauling we feared it might be. Andrew will have raised his profile from that showing and Cairns, Timoney, Rea and Patterson will have caught the eye of the coaches too. It was such an open game and both teams were looking rusty but it was still one of the more enjoyable preseason games I've seen.

Rodney Ah You still makes me think 'Ah Fek'. Waste of a contract right there.

Oh and also WE NEED A 10!!!!

Ah that's not many then. Is that Shalk Van de Merwe? What's his position? I was just interested to know what the team could look like next season, looks pretty tasty. When I say criticism I mean from some Irish but mostly non-Irish IE accusations of relying on South Africans. I don't think that's the case though.

I think that just because we signed players who A. were of a high enough quality and B. bought into the Ulster brand enough to became backbones of our squad that attracted the usual trolls. Apart from that we were never allowed to sign enough South African players to actually say we relied on them, ironically it turned out to be just one guy that could have been the Saffer we relied on but was forced to leave and we all know who that was.

Pete you forgot Johann and shame on you for it

That was indeed the criticism, that while the Leinsters and Munsters had NIQ to complement their Irish players, Ulster had an overreliance on their NIQ which explains Isas job for life at Leinster

Oh I didn't forget Johann, I just forgot to mention him. I was thinking about him the whole time though

geoff999rugby wrote:GA

In the past money has not been a, major, problem but things are not as rosy now as they have been in the past - belt tightening required

What I did say is money was not an issue with respect to Donald or indeed Lealiifano.
There are plenty of FH out of our price bracket

With respect to the signing of Piatau, and indeed signings general, Cunningham does not decide which players to get - he is guided by others as to the type of player to get and at what price (Board, Kiss and in the case of NIQ the IRFU)
Piatau was a request to get a high profile back who had a big of razzle dazzle about him.
He was as much about commercial considerations as rugby considerations.
If goes back to that belt tightening I mention.
It would be a misunderstanding of the situation to blame him for not getting a lock or backrow - they were not considered the priority (mad I know)
Given the remit Piatau was a really good match.
Coetzee, if fit, will prove to be an excellent signing as well

I understand there are all sorts of politics that Cunningham has to deal with and constraints outside of pure rugby. However with regard to the FH situation Ulster knew Pienaar was going so a major contingency element of the squad was removed as cover for Jackson (including injury). Maybe Cunningham has to be told by Kiss or Gibbes or by UR/IRFU committee to go and find a FH for a certain budget, but I find it incredible that none of them would consider what Ulster would do if they lost their playmaker.
On top of that Ulster seem to be looking for a temporary FH - why? Is that just a way to get round the draconian IRFU NIQ rules? Ulster need two test class players for each position with another being developed. If the 10 can't execute the gameplan the team won't function, and that requires experience as well as ability. UR had a taste of 'armageddon' when they had to resort to McCloskey taking place kicks, but even that hasn't woken them up. If they really think they can develop some of the young talent to the required standard they why did they not get more gametime last season when Ruan was still here? It can't be too motivational for an understudy to know that if the starting player blocking them gets injured they still don't get picked and a world wide bargain hunt is undertaken.
Maybe Logan panicked and was making it up as he went along, but Ulster SHOULD have been looking for a test quality 10 to support Jackson for at least a year, and more than that have signed him by now on a two year contract.

Cunningham's title is - Operation Director (Professional Team) and Kiss's title is - Director of Rugby. Neither give me any confidence they can see beyond next week never mind building a sustainable squad season after season, and neither seem to be directing anything in a succinct professional manner.

I find it incredible that none of them would consider what Ulster would do if they lost their playmaker

So until 3 weeks ago there wasn't a need for a fly half, well one to start regularly. Until three weeks ago Ulster had their first choice fly half for the season. What exactly do you think they should have done prior to charges being brought?

mikey_dragon wrote:Ah that's not many then. Is that Shalk Van de Merwe? What's his position? I was just interested to know what the team could look like next season, looks pretty tasty. When I say criticism I mean from some Irish but mostly non-Irish IE accusations of relying on South Africans. I don't think that's the case though.

VdM is a loosehead but uncapped by SA.
Coetzee and Deysel are NIQ, but the criticism of Ulster relying on Saffers extends beyond NIQ. Diack, Herbst and Ludik are all qualified through residency and Herring by grandfather so that's potentially seven South African born players in the matchday squad. There's also Angus Curtis who is an IQ Zimbabwean but he's only 18.
Recent players as well as Pienaar and Muller include Franco Van der Merwe, BJ Botha and Pedrie Wanenburg.

marty2086 wrote:

I find it incredible that none of them would consider what Ulster would do if they lost their playmaker

So until 3 weeks ago there wasn't a need for a fly half, well one to start regularly. Until three weeks ago Ulster had their first choice fly half for the season. What exactly do you think they should have done prior to charges being brought?

EH? There has been a need for a fly half since it was known that Pienaar was going and most people knew that more than three weeks ago. Contrary to popular opinion Jackson is not made up of titanium and kevlar with some special enhanced nanotech coating that cannot be scratched by diamond. Under normal circumstances he is missing for International chunks of the season and on top of that his gametime should be managed by having a replacement ready to come off the bench.

Ulster had a need for experienced backup long before Jackson's legal troubles surfaced, but it seems those whose job it is to notice such squad deficiencies have the collective vision of Blind Cave Fish.

The Great Aukster wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

I find it incredible that none of them would consider what Ulster would do if they lost their playmaker

So until 3 weeks ago there wasn't a need for a fly half, well one to start regularly. Until three weeks ago Ulster had their first choice fly half for the season. What exactly do you think they should have done prior to charges being brought?

EH? There has been a need for a fly half since it was known that Pienaar was going and most people knew that more than three weeks ago. Contrary to popular opinion Jackson is not made up of titanium and kevlar with some special enhanced nanotech coating that cannot be scratched by diamond. Under normal circumstances he is missing for International chunks of the season and on top of that his gametime should be managed by having a replacement ready to come off the bench.

Ulster had a need for experienced backup long before Jackson's legal troubles surfaced, but it seems those whose job it is to notice such squad deficiencies have the collective vision of Blind Cave Fish.

And where would they get that experienced back up?

Ulster have indeed been short of any backup at 10 that's good enough for the Pro14 for some time. When Jackson wasn't playing for a good chunk of last season we had our options being helped by having Pienaar at 9, this year we'll have Cooney or Marshall. Nelson is the nearest we've got to backup at ten and he's not an outhalf, on any other half decent side he'd be a 3rd or 4th option at 10. In such a pivotal role we need our number one player and a quality backup, not a converted fullback. Last night would have been the perfect opportunity to have a look and McPhillips and Lowry but no, lets see Nelson who can do a half a job there or Herron who we know can't.

McPhillips is injured is he not and Lowrys just into the academy so still a bit early for him.

marty2086 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

I find it incredible that none of them would consider what Ulster would do if they lost their playmaker

So until 3 weeks ago there wasn't a need for a fly half, well one to start regularly. Until three weeks ago Ulster had their first choice fly half for the season. What exactly do you think they should have done prior to charges being brought?

EH? There has been a need for a fly half since it was known that Pienaar was going and most people knew that more than three weeks ago. Contrary to popular opinion Jackson is not made up of titanium and kevlar with some special enhanced nanotech coating that cannot be scratched by diamond. Under normal circumstances he is missing for International chunks of the season and on top of that his gametime should be managed by having a replacement ready to come off the bench.

Ulster had a need for experienced backup long before Jackson's legal troubles surfaced, but it seems those whose job it is to notice such squad deficiencies have the collective vision of Blind Cave Fish.

And where would they get that experienced back up?

Perhaps they need to start looking outside the Pachón and Los Sabinos Caves in Mexico!

Ulster have highly paid staff whose job is to identify squad gaps and make provision for filling them. If they can't see those gaps or don't know how to fill them, maybe UR needs to get someone else who can?

Let's say Ulster sign Stephen Donald on a short contract and he tears a hamstring in his first five minutes - who is there to cover for him? If Ulster are serious about winning anything they need experienced flyhalf cover behind him just as they should have behind Jackson. If they're not serious about winning anything this season then they don't need a short term back up as they would be far better giving the young guys all the experience they can and write off the short term pain for longer term gain.
Say the case doesn't work out for Jackson, then next season there is a chance that Ulster will have neither a first choice nor a backup flyhalf. Such rudimentary logic seems to have escaped the supremos in charge of the Ulster Squad, or do they not care about anything beyond the next match?

So let me get this straight. Ulster haven't signed Christian Lealiifano?

The Great Aukster wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

I find it incredible that none of them would consider what Ulster would do if they lost their playmaker

So until 3 weeks ago there wasn't a need for a fly half, well one to start regularly. Until three weeks ago Ulster had their first choice fly half for the season. What exactly do you think they should have done prior to charges being brought?

EH? There has been a need for a fly half since it was known that Pienaar was going and most people knew that more than three weeks ago. Contrary to popular opinion Jackson is not made up of titanium and kevlar with some special enhanced nanotech coating that cannot be scratched by diamond. Under normal circumstances he is missing for International chunks of the season and on top of that his gametime should be managed by having a replacement ready to come off the bench.

Ulster had a need for experienced backup long before Jackson's legal troubles surfaced, but it seems those whose job it is to notice such squad deficiencies have the collective vision of Blind Cave Fish.

And where would they get that experienced back up?

Perhaps they need to start looking outside the Pachón and Los Sabinos Caves in Mexico!

Ulster have highly paid staff whose job is to identify squad gaps and make provision for filling them. If they can't see those gaps or don't know how to fill them, maybe UR needs to get someone else who can?

Let's say Ulster sign Stephen Donald on a short contract and he tears a hamstring in his first five minutes - who is there to cover for him? If Ulster are serious about winning anything they need experienced flyhalf cover behind him just as they should have behind Jackson. If they're not serious about winning anything this season then they don't need a short term back up as they would be far better giving the young guys all the experience they can and write off the short term pain for longer term gain.
Say the case doesn't work out for Jackson, then next season there is a chance that Ulster will have neither a first choice nor a backup flyhalf. Such rudimentary logic seems to have escaped the supremos in charge of the Ulster Squad, or do they not care about anything beyond the next match?

So Ulster currently only have one fly half on the books?

The case against Jackson and Olding has been going on for over a year, until 3 weeks ago there were no charges. Until there were charges there was not the need for a fly half.

Would it be great to have a quality back up to Jackson if he's ever available? It sure would but there's a little problem there. There's already a NIQ 10 down in Munster so getting another one in wouldn't happen, getting players from outside Ulster is a struggle so maybe my question is who do you expect them to sign?

Who is to say we haven't tried to sign every half decent IQ 10 we can over the last three years only to be rejected?

marty2086 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

I find it incredible that none of them would consider what Ulster would do if they lost their playmaker

So until 3 weeks ago there wasn't a need for a fly half, well one to start regularly. Until three weeks ago Ulster had their first choice fly half for the season. What exactly do you think they should have done prior to charges being brought?

EH? There has been a need for a fly half since it was known that Pienaar was going and most people knew that more than three weeks ago. Contrary to popular opinion Jackson is not made up of titanium and kevlar with some special enhanced nanotech coating that cannot be scratched by diamond. Under normal circumstances he is missing for International chunks of the season and on top of that his gametime should be managed by having a replacement ready to come off the bench.

Ulster had a need for experienced backup long before Jackson's legal troubles surfaced, but it seems those whose job it is to notice such squad deficiencies have the collective vision of Blind Cave Fish.

And where would they get that experienced back up?

Perhaps they need to start looking outside the Pachón and Los Sabinos Caves in Mexico!

Ulster have highly paid staff whose job is to identify squad gaps and make provision for filling them. If they can't see those gaps or don't know how to fill them, maybe UR needs to get someone else who can?

Let's say Ulster sign Stephen Donald on a short contract and he tears a hamstring in his first five minutes - who is there to cover for him? If Ulster are serious about winning anything they need experienced flyhalf cover behind him just as they should have behind Jackson. If they're not serious about winning anything this season then they don't need a short term back up as they would be far better giving the young guys all the experience they can and write off the short term pain for longer term gain.
Say the case doesn't work out for Jackson, then next season there is a chance that Ulster will have neither a first choice nor a backup flyhalf. Such rudimentary logic seems to have escaped the supremos in charge of the Ulster Squad, or do they not care about anything beyond the next match?

So Ulster currently only have one fly half on the books?

The case against Jackson and Olding has been going on for over a year, until 3 weeks ago there were no charges. Until there were charges there was not the need for a fly half.

Would it be great to have a quality back up to Jackson if he's ever available? It sure would but there's a little problem there. There's already a NIQ 10 down in Munster so getting another one in wouldn't happen, getting players from outside Ulster is a struggle so maybe my question is who do you expect them to sign?

Who is to say we haven't tried to sign every half decent IQ 10 we can over the last three years only to be rejected?

Interesting logic:
Jackson is unavailable for an indeterminate amount of time due to a legal matter - sign short term cover
Jackson is unavailable for an indeterminate amount of time due to an injury - don't sign anyone

Ulster haven't signed anyone so who is to say they are even trying (other than Logan who apparently knows nothing about rugby)?

It is little wonder Ulster lurch from one crisis to another when those in charge react to circumstances rather than plan for the future.

I think we have been trying to get any IQ 10 that might be up to standard, thats why we had NoC and Windsor. Just werent good enough so have to relay on acamady. Id say steenson madigan were approached but have better offers/don't fancy Ulster.

Yep, "don't fancy Ulster" just about sums it up.

No matter. Hopefully we get a decent 10 to cover for Jackson's absence. Pinning my hopes on Cooney at 9, but still prepared to be disappointed. I won't fall into the trap of comparing him to Pienaar though. Just not fair on Cooney. Give him time, and see what happens.

Watched the game on YouTube, v Wasps. Not too disappointed. weak at centre and half back, as expected, but still held our own for most of the game (at least the three quarters game made available on YouTube). Worrying thing is defence. Yes, that could be a result of missing key players in key positions, but still looked passive overall. Is kiss our defence coach still? More passive drift defence? Arrghh! He has this season to prove himself, and then, hopefully, Gibbes takes complete control. The forwards did front up at times, but positioning from the backs let us down at key moments. McCloskey, tits for hands, needs to do better. Marshall passing the ball to the floor .... as expected.

Tommy isn't a centre. He was weak. We have better options on the wing, so his days are numbered. I feel dirty saying that.

The Great Aukster wrote:
Interesting logic:
Jackson is unavailable for an indeterminate amount of time due to a legal matter - sign short term cover
Jackson is unavailable for an indeterminate amount of time due to an injury - don't sign anyone

Ulster haven't signed anyone so who is to say they are even trying (other than Logan who apparently knows nothing about rugby)?

It is little wonder Ulster lurch from one crisis to another when those in charge react to circumstances rather than plan for the future.

Whens he been out with a long term injury?

Well the club say they are, the media say they are and the player they are trying to sign says they are but not good enough for you

I can kind of see this argument from both sides, on one hand Aukster is right Ulster really should have been planning for the worst from the moment it got leaked that there was even an investigation, that's a professional teams job. Yes there were no charges until 3 weeks ago but the investigation should have been enough to make sure Ulster started to plan for if things went wrong. Now maybe they have but the evidence would suggest that Ulster were not particularly bothered about trying to find someone until recently which is just not good common sense.
Now in regards to recruiting a 10, that is also very difficult. Now that Jackson is definately out it is I guess made easier for them to sign someone as they can approach the IRFU for the short term cover type situation that they apparently are trying to agree with Christian.
Lets go back before that though, I can see how your options would be limited. As there are already NIQ outhalfs in Ireland the IRFU might be wary about allowing you to sign another so that limits your options to only Irish Qualified players.
Ulster have had a few who were not up to standard and the only ones that shout as being up to standard are Madigan and Steenson, I'd be willing to bet neither of them would fancy competing with Jackson for the Ulster jersey when he wasn't definately out and that Steenson would likely feel loyalty to Exeter since they gave him a chance, Madigan probbaly isn't that interested in Ulster in general and probably got better offers money wise. Therefore the question has to be asked who could they possibly have signed.

On a wider note I find Ulsters identifying of their needs and their lack of using the youth troubling. Over the past few seasons there has been some glaringly obvious holes in the team and nothing has been done to fill them. As a collective our leadership has to take responsibility for that and questions have to be asked as to why we are pluging holes after the leak has sprung rather than planning ahead.
The lack of using youth is particularly troubling, apart from injuries I don't remember the last time we brought through a youth player in the forwards. Roger Wilson played at least 2 seasons too long, surely there were guys there who could have played and maybe would have turned into at least decent Pro 14 players?
The constant use of Paul Marshall at scrumhalf as well, you know what he is going to do so why not give some of the other options a shot, I mean for goodness sake one of our options did well at Munster last season, why did we not identify that kind of quality in him.
Maybe none of the options would have reached any sort of level but you simply cannot know if you never play them. I think that Ulster are as a rule awful at using the youth players they have and that is one thing I certainly hope changes. You look at Leinster and they never seem afraid to use the youth and look at the depth they have because of it. It cannot just be that the players in the Leinster Academy are infinitely better than Ulsters, I refuse to believe that and see it a smore likely that Leinster are just prepared to give the youth a shot and we are not.

You can plan for the worst but if you aren't allowed to sign someone until they are needed then you are handcuffed. Were Ulster supposed to approach guys a year ago and say heres a contract but only sign it if we say we need you? Its not workable, the best you can do is contact agents, find out who might be interested and when they'd be available and have a shortlist.

We are short across the park, the biggest problem is the academy isn't producing like it should especially with the NIQ limitations. The young players should have been getting more game time and think that'll change this season but how many former Ulster players have went on to set the world alight?

marty2086 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:
Interesting logic:
Jackson is unavailable for an indeterminate amount of time due to a legal matter - sign short term cover
Jackson is unavailable for an indeterminate amount of time due to an injury - don't sign anyone

Ulster haven't signed anyone so who is to say they are even trying (other than Logan who apparently knows nothing about rugby)?

It is little wonder Ulster lurch from one crisis to another when those in charge react to circumstances rather than plan for the future.

Whens he been out with a long term injury?

Well the club say they are, the media say they are and the player they are trying to sign says they are but not good enough for you

Who said anything about a long term injury? Jackson has never been out because he's had to go to court before either.

marty2086 wrote:You can plan for the worst but if you aren't allowed to sign someone until they are needed then you are handcuffed. Were Ulster supposed to approach guys a year ago and say heres a contract but only sign it if we say we need you? Its not workable, the best you can do is contact agents, find out who might be interested and when they'd be available and have a shortlist.

We are short across the park, the biggest problem is the academy isn't producing like it should especially with the NIQ limitations. The young players should have been getting more game time and think that'll change this season but how many former Ulster players have went on to set the world alight?

Speaking of which, Ulster Academy beat Leinster Academy in Donnybrook on Friday. Anybody heard any details? Ulster promised a match report, but...

marty2086 wrote:You can plan for the worst but if you aren't allowed to sign someone until they are needed then you are handcuffed. Were Ulster supposed to approach guys a year ago and say heres a contract but only sign it if we say we need you? Its not workable, the best you can do is contact agents, find out who might be interested and when they'd be available and have a shortlist.

We are short across the park, the biggest problem is the academy isn't producing like it should especially with the NIQ limitations. The young players should have been getting more game time and think that'll change this season but how many former Ulster players have went on to set the world alight?

There are a few who have went on to do well who became at least solid players at pro 14 level.  Players don't have to be world beaters to be needed by Ulster our biggest need is solid pro 14 players to back up our starting team.
It's also not as simple as who went on to become good players and who didn't either, if a player is not playing for 3 or 4 years this can severely affect their development, by the time they are released it is already too late and they would then never realise their full potential.  A good example of that is someone like Lorcan Dow, someone who showed potential played for Ireland at U-20's level, then sat around at Ulster for 3 or 4 years, those years are critical to a guys development and you may not get those lost years back.

Also you have to understand Marty I did say it makes it easier to replace Jackson now but a lot of the leg work can be done before hand maybe not approaching the actual player but identifying possibilities, talking to agents etc, by the sounds of what Geoff says it doesn't seem like that happened.  Now I will say this all comes from no knowledge of what Ulster were doing so perhaps they were.
Also we have always needed a back up to Jackson since little Humph left, the guy has never been injured but he is also not bullet proof, at some point he could have an injury and ther would be literally no one to replace him except Herron who is terrible or Nelson who is a fullback.  Again as I said though it is difficult to find a good player to do such.

The question about the Academy is interesting because are they not producing or are the coaches not realising the potential, perhaps a bit of both I suspect, guys like mccall, kane, o'connor have all come in and been solid players for us in the last few years, none of whom looked like getting in the squad until injuries forced them to be in it. At the same time we also clearly don't produce as many as other places and so the Academy system also needs to be looked at and the way the schools and clubs affect that system as well.

What I am saying here is that I realise the contraints Ulster work under, i realise it is tricky but I also realise that there have been a lot of failings and as a professional organisation they should be called out on said failings and learn from them, lets hope they have.  

The one thing I do see is that Piatau was a commerical decision apparently, this makes me a little worried because we have limited NIQ spots so if a major consideration is how many tickets they sell or how many shirts they move rather than where do we really need a player etc then perhaps that is not a good thing for Ulster.

I think Piatau was a commercial decision but that we were not allowed NIQ in the positions we needed them, therefore we had a NOQ that could only be used in the backs, so the decision was made to get the best we could.

I don't think Ulster could do much before Jackson became unavailable, as the IRFU would not have allowed an NIQ 10 on a just in case basis and the IQ options are either not coming or not good enough.

Long term problem is he academy, Schools cup is a draw back, but it doesn't hold Leinster back the same way. There are changes afoot and have been for a few years hopefully we start seeing more players making the grade.

I think the change has already started to happen. This crop of new Academy players are looking good. Though this cannot be a one off, needs to be a constant stream.

https://twitter.com/UlsterRugby?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

Christian's in until the 22nd January, apparently.

All we need now is for Cooney to be a solid performer, and maybe the season is back on track?
Fairly annoying that Ireland and Lions boys won't be able to rejoin the action for the first few weeks. But could give fringe players an opportunity to stake a claim.

Fair point by Bryn saying we could get a top player for the first half of the season or a lesser talent for all of it. Hopefully the squad 10s get some game time and realise they could get the spot for February.

If Paddy was having a normal season we probably wouldn't have him for the 6N period anyway, we have bought ourselves 6 months to really bring on one of the young lads. Hopefully Curtis and Lowry play the U20s 6N and we know where we stand with them.

I have a bad feeling about this!!!
It's a great signing and Leali'ifano's a high quality player but January will be upon us a lot sooner than we think. If Paddy's not back we better hope we can find someone to fill that large gap for the remainder of the season.

Positive thoughts!!!!
Positive thoughts!!!!

Cold shower, Pete. Keep that positivity at bay.

Maybe Bryn will be on the blower to Berrick Barnes, Japanese season ends in January and he doesn't play super rugby.

We have been given short term dispensation to sign an NIQ 10. If Jackson is found guilty, will that dispensation be extended. Will the NIQ slot left absent by Piutau be given to an out-half?
I guess we have to wait and see how much progress the young lads make, but going forward, the NIQ slot left by Piutau is probably most needed in the 10 role (since 9 is a definite no-go).
If IRFU are going o have a problem with that, then surely they need to do more to encourage Madigan back home, or get Carberry shipped to another province?
You can't argue that we need to blood our young 10s for the sake of Ireland without also seeing the silliness of Carberry stuck behind Sexton.

Maybe this 'dispensation' is all the IRFU will allow Ulster, in which case they should be ashamed of themselves. Ulster have had to sign back-up to Jackson because they had none, and come January they will yet again have none. Hopefully Lealiifano does well in his short sojourn but then he will be off and the squad will be demotivated with Ulster back to square one. Even if Jackson is back by then he will be totally out of match practice so a slump is all but guaranteed. Lealiifano is undoubtedly a top class player but this signing smacks of a commercial decision to convince any wavering Season Ticket purchasers that they should flash their cash to buy at least half a season of entertainment.

In the BBC article Kiss said, "He's a proven leader and we're excited by the influence that he'll have on our young fly-halves Peter Nelson, Brett Herron, Johnny McPhillips and Callum Smith.

"We also have two exciting players in our Academy, Michael Lowry and Angus Curtis, who will also have a fantastic opportunity to learn from Christian."
He must be some communicator to develop these six guys in four months, when Ruan couldn't do it over several years! If his influence on young talent was in any way a consideration in the signing then the IRFU should have allowed a much longer contract to someone with enough time to make a difference - it doesn't look like Jackson is going to be a perfect role model.

Successful teams become so over a number of years by working to long term plans, so the only conclusion to be drawn from this dispensation is that the IRFU are not in the least bit concerned about Ulster's success on the pitch as long as they are commercially successful off it.

I see the bakebook posts are up and in both of them the official Ulster Rugby bakebook page has misspelt Leali'ifano's name both times. I wonder if Ulster Rugby spelt it correctly on the contract?

I was also just reading the BelTel at lunch and the other two lads have been named in the case. Also the charges against Jackson have been added and they are more serious than I would have thought given what I was told what happened. I hope I was told the more accurate facts.

Belfast Telegraph wrote:Ireland fly-half Jackson is accused of two charges — raping the female when he “did not reasonably believe that she so consented” to sex and sexually assaulting her by penetration.
His club and international teammate, Olding, is charged with two counts of r*** against the same woman.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/four-ulster-rugby-players-charged-in-sex-assault-case-36052110.html

Grim reading.

That's the one Clive, grim reading indeed. With Ulster only signing cover until January we can either assume they are highly confident of a favourable outcome or they have failed to prepare for the worst. Toss of a coin on that one really.

The Great Aukster wrote:Maybe this 'dispensation' is all the IRFU will allow Ulster, in which case they should be ashamed of themselves. Ulster have had to sign back-up to Jackson because they had none, and come January they will yet again have none. Hopefully Lealiifano does well in his short sojourn but then he will be off and the squad will be demotivated with Ulster back to square one. Even if Jackson is back by then he will be totally out of match practice so a slump is all but guaranteed. Lealiifano is undoubtedly a top class player but this signing smacks of a commercial decision to convince any wavering Season Ticket purchasers that they should flash their cash to buy at least half a season of entertainment.

In the BBC article Kiss said, "He's a proven leader and we're excited by the influence that he'll have on our young fly-halves Peter Nelson, Brett Herron, Johnny McPhillips and Callum Smith.

"We also have two exciting players in our Academy, Michael Lowry and Angus Curtis, who will also have a fantastic opportunity to learn from Christian."
He must be some communicator to develop these six guys in four months, when Ruan couldn't do it over several years! If his influence on young talent was in any way a consideration in the signing then the IRFU should have allowed a much longer contract to someone with enough time to make a difference - it doesn't look like Jackson is going to be a perfect role model.

Successful teams become so over a number of years by working to long term plans, so the only conclusion to be drawn from this dispensation is that the IRFU are not in the least bit concerned about Ulster's success on the pitch as long as they are commercially successful off it.

Are you trying out for the part of the grinch Aukster or is it just your nature to poo poo everything?

Ulster were a shambles for not having a plan, not making an announcement and the news being public not the news is public it's still not good enough?

Maybe Ruan wasn't the leader he should have been and didn't do much to develop the likes of McPhillips but Nelson has missed huge chunks of recent seasons through injury, Herron was cast aside last season for his drink driving and Lowry and Curtis are new to the set up.

From Bryns words it seems the option to resign Lealiifano beyond January is there or at least possible but it all depends on external factors and if they cant they'll look elsewhere

I can't fathom Lealiifano not returning to Brumbies. Thye have supported him all through his illness. Would he really say 'hey guys I'm all better, now I'm away to earn some dollah in Europe!'
Who knows, it is a short career...
actually...
as i type i change my mind. This guys has no idea if he will have a career even as long as other guys. Who know if/when illness could return. If he has a family (does he) he may also be thinking about the fact he may not have a long healthy life to earn money in other ways post rugby.
Not many could really blame this guy for earning as much as he can while he can.

(what a 180 all in one post!)

Given the way things are going in Australia there could be issues at work there, Brumbies could be happy to see him go

clivemcl wrote:I can't fathom Lealiifano not returning to Brumbies. Thye have supported him all through his illness. Would he really say 'hey guys I'm all better, now I'm away to earn some dollah in Europe!'
Who knows, it is a short career...
actually...
as i type i change my mind. This guys has no idea if he will have a career even as long as other guys. Who know if/when illness could return. If he has a family (does he) he may also be thinking about the fact he may not have a long healthy life to earn money in other ways post rugby.
Not many could really blame this guy for earning as much as he can while he can.

(what a 180 all in one post!)

Isn't the point of this for him to get some gametime while the Brumbies are off season? He will go back there surely

Yea but who came up with that narrative? Was that said by anyone involved, or is that just what we and the media surmised given the situation. Maybe he feels he's in cracking shape and just saw an opportunity to earn money.

The deal is designed to ensure the playmaker gets more game time after he missed nearly all of the recently-completed Super Rugby season while recovering from his illness.

"I feel that it's important that I get some minutes playing competitive rugby ahead of the 2018 Super Rugby season," Lealiifano said in a statement.

"With this opportunity, I feel I can come back to the Brumbies in great shape."

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/96012483/brumbies-back-christian-lealiifano-confirms-shortterm-ulster-deal

clivemcl wrote:

Belfast Telegraph wrote:Ireland fly-half Jackson is accused of  two charges — raping the female when he “did not reasonably believe that she so consented” to sex and sexually assaulting her by penetration.
His club and international teammate, Olding, is charged with two counts of r*** against the same woman.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/four-ulster-rugby-players-charged-in-sex-assault-case-36052110.html

Grim reading.

Very grim. Sounds like it will boil down to consent, but the fact that one of them is being charged with false witness statements sounds very bad to me.

marty2086 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Maybe this 'dispensation' is all the IRFU will allow Ulster, in which case they should be ashamed of themselves. Ulster have had to sign back-up to Jackson because they had none, and come January they will yet again have none. Hopefully Lealiifano does well in his short sojourn but then he will be off and the squad will be demotivated with Ulster back to square one. Even if Jackson is back by then he will be totally out of match practice so a slump is all but guaranteed. Lealiifano is undoubtedly a top class player but this signing smacks of a commercial decision to convince any wavering Season Ticket purchasers that they should flash their cash to buy at least half a season of entertainment.

In the BBC article Kiss said, "He's a proven leader and we're excited by the influence that he'll have on our young fly-halves Peter Nelson, Brett Herron, Johnny McPhillips and Callum Smith.

"We also have two exciting players in our Academy, Michael Lowry and Angus Curtis, who will also have a fantastic opportunity to learn from Christian."
He must be some communicator to develop these six guys in four months, when Ruan couldn't do it over several years! If his influence on young talent was in any way a consideration in the signing then the IRFU should have allowed a much longer contract to someone with enough time to make a difference - it doesn't look like Jackson is going to be a perfect role model.

Successful teams become so over a number of years by working to long term plans, so the only conclusion to be drawn from this dispensation is that the IRFU are not in the least bit concerned about Ulster's success on the pitch as long as they are commercially successful off it.

Are you trying out for the part of the grinch Aukster or is it just your nature to poo poo everything?

Ulster were a shambles for not having a plan, not making an announcement and the news being public not the news is public it's still not good enough?

Maybe Ruan wasn't the leader he should have been and didn't do much to develop the likes of McPhillips but Nelson has missed huge chunks of recent seasons through injury, Herron was cast aside last season for his drink driving and Lowry and Curtis are new to the set up.

From Bryns words it seems the option to resign Lealiifano beyond January is there or at least possible but it all depends on external factors and if they cant they'll look elsewhere

This news appearing now was the very least that should have first appeared i.e. announcement of a deal. Just because the news has belatedly come out doesn't mean it hasn't been handled badly fuelling unnecessary media speculation with the ifs buts and maybes in the interim.
The main problem is the seemingly reactive nature of the whole saga and the scattergun approach to recruitment (Curtis came to Ulster last season btw). Baby Humphreys retired at the end of the 15/16 season but even with him, Jackson and Pienaar all on the books that year Ulster still had to play a callow Nelson at 10 with McCloskey taking the goal kicks (and that didn't go too well). Now both Humpreys and Pienaar have gone so the risk of needing experienced cover has rocketed. Kiss says he needs experience yet neither Humphreys nor Pienaar have been replaced - why?
As already acknowledged maybe the IRFU refuse to allow Ulster to sign anyone at flyhalf (NIQ or otherwise), but if Kiss thinks he needs experience in such a pivotal position and that obviously was a gap at Ulster, then he should have had a plan long before now. As it is there is all the disruption of a four month sticking plaster to postpone the problem until January, when yet again Ulster will have to go cap in hand to the IRFU for another 'dispensation'. Maybe the IRFU like this convoluted show of power before they'll accept a longer term solution, but right now it seems seriously amateurish.

clivemcl wrote:

Belfast Telegraph wrote:Ireland fly-half Jackson is accused of  two charges — raping the female when he “did not reasonably believe that she so consented” to sex and sexually assaulting her by penetration.
His club and international teammate, Olding, is charged with two counts of r*** against the same woman.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/four-ulster-rugby-players-charged-in-sex-assault-case-36052110.html

Grim reading.

It is, and it is also grim to see their names, pictures and where they live splattered all over the papers. It is total injustice that the accused do not also get the right to anonymity prior to the outcome of the trial.

clivemcl wrote:

Belfast Telegraph wrote:Ireland fly-half Jackson is accused of  two charges — raping the female when he “did not reasonably believe that she so consented” to sex and sexually assaulting her by penetration.
His club and international teammate, Olding, is charged with two counts of r*** against the same woman.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/four-ulster-rugby-players-charged-in-sex-assault-case-36052110.html

Grim reading.

I wasn't going to respond to this until after the court case had concluded, but feel I should add my pennyworth now, and it's all I'm going to say until the court case is concluded.

Reading the article sounds grim, I agree. That is until you read this bit:

'he “did not reasonably believe that she so consented” to sex'.

What is that supposed to mean? Well, and considering the latest vogue for requiring a male to ask his partners consent to every move he makes, it might simply mean that they didn't specifically ask consent to penetrate, and that she simply didn't confirm or deny that she allowed such. Whoever she is, she has a voice. So why is it not much clearer that she was not willing for sexual intercourse?

Now, I fully accept there may be more to this. I'm just basing my thoughts on the report. I will also say that if they are indeed guilty of r***, then they deserve all that comes to them.

I have my own gut feeling about this, but voicing it may make me the bad guy in today's political climate. So will wait until this is done and dusted.

How do you prove that 'he did not reasonably believe that she so consented to sex'? I occasionally engage in this activity with my wife
It normally happens under the assumption that if she doesn't tell me to get lost, or hit me, that is consent. Am I putting myself in danger legally by not getting a verbal response? Should I record said verbal response?
So then it comes down to intoxication. Perhaps a girl may not say 'no', and may not struggle because they are not clear enough in mind to do so. My problem here is, does the intoxication of the other party excuse him too? Or does it become a question of 'how intoxicated'?
I'm assuming that Jackson and Olding were under the influence. That I do not know.

So back to the quote
'when he 'did not reasonably believe that she so consented” to sex'

Could this be reworded as 'come on now, you knew she was blocked and couldn't encourage nor stop you'.

If this is the case, then how does a prosecution prove that the victim was THAT intoxicated, or that the person on trial was not equally intoxicated, or that he was aware of how intoxicated the other person was.

The other guy covering up or whatever way they worded it, that may be dumb and punishment worthy, but does no more than show they were scared crapless by what the whole thing was turning into.

If the girl was taken advantage of and raped, I'd very much hope to see them punished, but If it's an intoxication question, there would surely need to be third party witnesses testifying to the level of intoxication.

What a situation!

Well, since I've said that I'm not going to comment further on it, I will keep to that.

What I can say is, a very good post, Clive. And I can say that I absolutely agree with you on the dangers it even brings to married life. Do we need to record our every move? I'm divorced now, so must plan accordingly o0

I have to agree with you there Clive, you can have implied consent, consent withdrawn etc.

Whatever happens the media coverage is only going to get worse - a la Ched Evans. Ulster Rugby will be tainted for a while to come I'd say.