Ulster Rugby 2017-18

First topic message reminder :

Director of Rugby Les Kiss  
Head Coach Jono Gibbes  
Assistant Coach Dwayne Peel
Scrum Coach Aaron Dundon  
Skills Coach Niall Malone


Players In
John Cooney from Connacht
Schalk van der Merwe from Southern Kings
Jean Deysel from Sharks
David Busby promoted from Academy
Aaron Cairns promoted from Academy
Ross Kane promoted from Academy
Rob Lyttle promoted from Academy
Tommy O'Hagan promoted from Academy
Jack Owens promoted from Academy

Players Out
Franco van der Merwe to Cardiff Blues
Roger Wilson retired
Conor Joyce to Jersey Reds
Mark Best to Jersey Reds
Jonny Murphy to Rotherham Titans
Ruan Pienaar to Montpellier
John Donnan released
Lorcan Dow released
Ricky Lutton released
Stephen Mulholland released

Ulster Rugby 2017/18 Senior Playing Squad

Rodney Ah You (18 ULS, 3 IRE)
John Andrew (27 ULS)
Rory Best (198 ULS, 104 IRE)
Callum Black (128 ULS)
Tommy Bowe (150 ULS, 69 IRE)
Peter Browne (31 ULS)
David Busby (2 ULS)
Aaron Cairns (1 ULS)
Darren Cave (193 ULS, 11 IRE)
Marcell Coetzee (4 ULS, 28 SA)
John Cooney (0 ULS, 1 IRE)
Jean Deysel (0 ULS, 4 SA)
Robbie Diack (193 ULS, 2 IRE)
Craig Gilroy (149 ULS, 10 IRE)
Iain Henderson (74 ULS, 32 IRE)
Chris Henry (165 ULS, 24 IRE)
Wiehahn Herbst (54 ULS)
Rob Herring (120 ULS, 1 IRE)
Brett Herron (7 ULS)
Paddy Jackson (123 ULS, 25 IRE)
Ross Kane (11 ULS)
Louis Ludik (54 ULS)
Robert Lyttle (8 ULS)
Luke Marshall (104 ULS, 11 IRE)
Paul Marshall (195 ULS, 3 IRE)
Kyle McCall (36 ULS)
Stuart McCloskey (58 ULS, 1 IRE)
Johnny McPhillips
Peter Nelson (37 ULS)
Alan O'Connor (39 ULS)
Tommy O'Hagan
Stuart Olding (62 ULS, 4 IRE)
Jack Owens (1 ULS)
Callum Patterson
Jared Payne (78 ULS, 20 IRE)
Charles Piutau (23 ULS, 16 NZ)
Matthew Rea
Sean Reidy (58 ULS, 2 IRE)
Clive Ross (52 ULS)
David Shanahan (13 ULS)
Jonny Simpson (4 ULS)
Jacob Stockdale (24 ULS, 2 IRE)
Kieran Treadwell (21 ULS, 2 IRE)
Andrew Trimble (217 ULS, 70 IRE)
Schalk van der Merwe
Andrew Warwick (74 ULS)

Disagree about the bench, I think Andrew really adds energy coming off the bench and Id prefer him starting but his darts are a little wonky at times so understand that. Herbst is maybe our best tighthead so can be useful coming off the bench, Rea showed his class last week and Lyttle is a dangerous player so while it lacks the superstars it does have some quality there to get the job done

My only problem is Ross starting instead of Reidy but that may be with a view to Henry being rested next week

Gutsy and does show long term planning with resting people with a view to a whole season/small squad.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the bench. Rea has been fine, but I'd be hoping for a Coetzee off the bench to turn around a game that is slipping away. I suppose what I'm trying to say is I'd prefer a game-changing bench, rather than good replacements. Herbst as you say probably is our best tighthead but not sure he's the man to haul us back into a match.

Anyway, hopefully we won't need it and we'll lead from the start and pull away.

It's been stated that Coetzee will likely make the squad for the Zebre game but I'm becoming more concerned about him as time goes on. Will this happen after every small run of games?

I the look of our 11 - 15, it's nice to see Cave back in a starting lineup. The bench actually looks OK but I'd like to think Shanahan and Herron wouldn't be used until we have the game out of sight. That's assuming we can actually win it, last year's rollercoaster is too fresh in the mind for us to take anything for granted just yet.

15 Carl Meyer, 14 Adam Hughes, 13 Thretton Palamo, 12 Pat Howard, 11 George Gasson, 10 Dorian Jones, 9 Owain Leonard; 1 Thomas Davies, 2 Gerard Ellis, 3 Lloyd Fairbrother, 4 Matthew Screech, 5 Rynard Landman, 6 Max Williams, 7 Ollie Griffiths ©, 8 Robson Blake.

Replacements; Rhys Buckley, Phil Price, Brok Harris, Joe Davies, Lennon Greggains, Dane Blacker, Angus O’Brien, Will Talbot-Davies.

Something like 12 changes from Dragons, still a decent team with some danger to it but Ulster should surely have enough for 4 points and hopefully 5 too

I'd agree - I think the bench is a bit risky. But what would be a better opportunity to risk our younger players in?

Redman wrote:Heavily weakened side that.  Agree with the principle of spreading it around a bit, especially at home.  

What I'm not too happy with is it doesn't leave us much off the bench - excluding Henderson.  Always good to have a Plan B because if Plan A doesn't work with our starters then we're in trouble.  

It could be argued that young guns and squad players haven't performed as well in the past because they know the first teamer is on the bench to 'save the day'. Perhaps it's a good move for Ulster to say, 'this is it, we believe in you, just go and do your job'.

I guess we will soon find out.

That is as poor an Ulster side as we are going to see at Ravenhill this season, at least on paper. Dragons might have missed a trick playing a weakened side, because teams won't get a better opportunity than this to turn Ulster over at home this season.

Artful_Dodger wrote:That is as poor an Ulster side as we are going to see at Ravenhill this season, at least on paper.  Dragons might have missed a trick playing a weakened side, because teams won't get a better opportunity than this to turn Ulster over at home this season.

I'm pretty sure this Ulster selection is in response to our selection.

munkian wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:That is as poor an Ulster side as we are going to see at Ravenhill this season, at least on paper.  Dragons might have missed a trick playing a weakened side, because teams won't get a better opportunity than this to turn Ulster over at home this season.

I'm pretty sure this Ulster selection is in response to our selection.

I think there would have been plenty of changes from Ulster anyway, just a few more because of the Dragons changes that were forewarned

Pete330v2 wrote:It's been stated that Coetzee will likely make the squad for the Zebre game but I'm becoming more concerned about him as time goes on. Will this happen after every small run of games?

Don't worry Pete if he doesn't work out he can always be traded for another SH player looking to rehab or grab a payday and the Ulster Rugby/Esportif International gravy train can roll on.

rodders wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:It's been stated that Coetzee will likely make the squad for the Zebre game but I'm becoming more concerned about him as time goes on. Will this happen after every small run of games?

Don't worry Pete if he doesn't work out he can always be traded for another SH player looking to rehab or grab a payday and the Ulster Rugby/Esportif International gravy train can roll on.

We're either jinxed or someone's on the take that's connected to Esportif. How many recent signings ended up being crocked. Marcel, yer man Boys and one other who's name escapes me. We're the rehab club

Pete330v2 wrote:

rodders wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:It's been stated that Coetzee will likely make the squad for the Zebre game but I'm becoming more concerned about him as time goes on. Will this happen after every small run of games?

Don't worry Pete if he doesn't work out he can always be traded for another SH player looking to rehab or grab a payday and the Ulster Rugby/Esportif International gravy train can roll on.

We're either jinxed or someone's on the take that's connected to Esportif.

Or both ...

Let's switch chat back to here and let the Dragons lick their wounds.

Really interesting watching the team huddle. Seems to be a lot of very serious focused faces and respect for each other. Cave doing a fair bit of the talking.

clivemcl wrote:Let's switch chat back to here and let the Dragons lick their wounds.

Really interesting watching the team huddle. Seems to be a lot of very serious focused faces and respect for each other. Cave doing a fair bit of the talking.

And Henderson I noticed

And listening to Henry talking about training being more intense than some games, I talked last season about the mistakes in games being from training pitch and it seems to be the highlighted more now

Our win in Benetton is starting to look better and better.

Ulster won the U18s Inter-provincial schools championship this afternoon.

Trouble is a lot of those players give up rugby once they leave school.

Well, they haven't won it in twelve years, so hopefully more might continue to play, or those that do keep on are of a higher quality than usual.

Or we could just assume a kneejerk "THIS MEANS NOTHING" stance, of course.

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/16522.php#.WcecN6XTXqA

Theres a clear move to rely less on the schools to produce the talent so even if plenty leave it should have less of an impact on the future

Piutau seems pretty fond of Ulster and Belfast. Can't begrudge him going to become the highest paid player in the world.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/sep/25/charles-piutau-all-blacks-ulster-bristol-rugby-union-interview

Don Alfonso wrote:Piutau seems pretty fond of Ulster and Belfast. Can't begrudge him going to become the highest paid player in the world.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/sep/25/charles-piutau-all-blacks-ulster-bristol-rugby-union-interview

Let's face it he'd need to be stupid to turn a deal like that down. I know it's easy to be full of admiration when great players turn down large sums of cash to remain where their heart is (yes I mean you Mr Peinaar) but when the sum of cash has six zeros then sod it, flash the cash.

Is Piutau worth the money? On his day he can be incredible but they seem to be fewer and farther between these days. When not on his day, he looks lazy and dis-interested.

Dunno that he is. Nah, not really.

I suspect he'll be a lot more bothered this season - last season was our worst in years. Hopefully we'll be in the reckoning at the end of this season, and not be last in our group in Europe.

eirebilly wrote:Is Piutau worth the money? On his day he can be incredible but they seem to be fewer and farther between these days. When not on his day, he looks lazy and dis-interested.

For me he's more flash than substance too often, he had some impressive stats last season but for a player of his quality he just looked to offload all the time when at times holding on and recycling was the smarter option

I have just not been all that impressed with him. I agree with marty that he is a bit too flash at times.

I remember a game last year when he lost the ball in contact, never tracked the opposition player back (just walked) and pretty much allowed a try to be scored from his mistake. That is not something I could ever imagine a top quality player doing.

eirebilly wrote:Is Piutau worth the money?

Well you can't expect Stockdale to carry his own kitbag.

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Is Piutau worth the money?

Well you can't expect Stockdale to carry his own kitbag.

Stockdale, better winger, fullback or centre in your mind rodders?

eirebilly wrote:

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Is Piutau worth the money?

Well you can't expect Stockdale to carry his own kitbag.

Stockdale, better winger, fullback or centre in your mind rodders?

It doesn't matter where Stockdale plays on the pitch Billy, the tryline comes to him

He certainly is a proper prospect, looks very good at 15 but I cant help thinking he may be wasted there.

Same way I feel that Carbery, think he is wasted at 15, looks a proper 10 to me.

Stockdale will probably move around a bit, Kiss talked last week a lot about areas he needs to improve and defence would be one key area

Carbery was playing 15 to help him, he was making mistakes at 10 and it wasn't in his or Leinsters interests to keep playing him there and probably destroying his confidence

Yeah I like him at wing or centre. He's very deceptive with his pace and power. He made a good fist of the fullback role at u-20s but not sure his future is there, although when Piatau goes maybe that is best chance to nail down a starting spot?

Did Gilroy not play a large amount of games at 15?

What's the story with Marshall and Olding?

eirebilly wrote:Did Gilroy not play a large amount of games at 15?

What's the story with Marshall and Olding?

Well I'd say Olding is finished if he doesn't get cleared of these charges. Marshall's future is at 13 I'd say.

I think Stockdale's best position is 13, to be honest. With a bit more experience, the idea of him and McCloskey in the centre - oh mama. Massive lads, with good skills. Stockdale running into Stu's offloads at pace.

After last season I was convinced that Stockdale is best at 13, but the way Peel has them playing heads up and giving licence to cut lines from anywhere, maybe Wing is the place (at least for now).

For sure right now Stockdale is better on the wing than in the centre. It might change in the future but 13 is an absolutely key role in defence and he doesn't look ready for it yet. It's no coincidence we are much better defensively when Payne is at 13 than some others.

Anyone else liking Bowe at 13?

Total forgot about Payne. He's had a lot of injuries recently, I'm not sure how durable he is as a first team player now.

We need a defence general at 13 and Cave and Payne fit that bill. It's a shame Payne's been inundated with the headaches which thankfully are being sorted. T'other forum suggesting that Cave is being given limited gametime this season so he'll be eager to leave, suggestions I take with a massive pinch of salt. It is odd that Cave is being sidelined despite being fit when we need him most to marshall the defence but if they want to force Bowe into the shirt then so be it. He's been impressive in fairness, has still got a great turn of pace and the eye for the finish.
Does anyone know what's up with the Cave situation?
Geoff??

Surely it is as simple as we have several other options at 12 and 13 ahead of him?

Did Ferris not say before the Dragons game Cave had been injured?

Pete330v2 wrote:We need a defence general at 13 and Cave and Payne fit that bill. It's a shame Payne's been inundated with the headaches which thankfully are being sorted. T'other forum suggesting that Cave is being given limited gametime this season so he'll be eager to leave, suggestions I take with a massive pinch of salt. It is odd that Cave is being sidelined despite being fit when we need him most to marshall the defence but if they want to force Bowe into the shirt then so be it. He's been impressive in fairness, has still got a great turn of pace and the eye for the finish.
Does anyone know what's up with the Cave situation?
Geoff??

Is Cave a defensive general though? He might be OK at organising the defence but his own defence isn't great at times. A couple of seasons ago I had a look at his stats on ESPN over a dozen games and in the majority he made fewer tackles than his centre partner and/or missed more attempted tackles. As the Pro12/14 has gathered pace with Glasgow/Connacht and latterly Scarlets all playing open off-loading styles, Cave's lack of pace is unfortunately more exposed in defence - which might have been the main catalyst for Doak to try him at inside centre?

If Darren is being given limited games, that might be to keep him off the fast tracks and save him for tighter heavy going where his brainpower could make all the difference?

The Great Aukster wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:We need a defence general at 13 and Cave and Payne fit that bill. It's a shame Payne's been inundated with the headaches which thankfully are being sorted. T'other forum suggesting that Cave is being given limited gametime this season so he'll be eager to leave, suggestions I take with a massive pinch of salt. It is odd that Cave is being sidelined despite being fit when we need him most to marshall the defence but if they want to force Bowe into the shirt then so be it. He's been impressive in fairness, has still got a great turn of pace and the eye for the finish.
Does anyone know what's up with the Cave situation?
Geoff??

Is Cave a defensive general though? He might be OK at organising the defence but his own defence isn't great at times. A couple of seasons ago I had a look at his stats on ESPN over a dozen games and in the majority he made fewer tackles than his centre partner and/or missed more attempted tackles. As the Pro12/14 has gathered pace with Glasgow/Connacht and latterly Scarlets all playing open off-loading styles, Cave's lack of pace is unfortunately more exposed in defence - which might have been the main catalyst for Doak to try him at inside centre?

If Darren is being given limited games, that might be to keep him off the fast tracks and save him for tighter heavy going where his brainpower could make all the difference?

Sounds fair enough.

The Great Aukster wrote:which might have been the main catalyst for Doak to try him at inside centre?

I thought that came from Schmidt wanting him to be able to play in multiple positions and preferring Marshall and Payne at 13?

Coetzee and Payne won't be back this week, it's hopefully next week now

marty2086 wrote:Coetzee and Payne won't be back this week, it's hopefully next week now

Coetzee's will now have the tag line of "next week". Coming soon at a stadium near you.

Aaron Dundon on Coetzee's return:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/41408530?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_sport_ni&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=northern_ireland

Hmmmm. Week after this, possibly. Week by week management. No long-term concerns. Apparently.

All seem a bit cagey about it, could just be overly cautious with his history but with injuries like his there usually are issues that flare up

Just hope he's not another Ferris

Regarding Payne's headaches, has there been any news on it? Does he still have them and do they know what caused them?

eirebilly wrote:Regarding Payne's headaches, has there been any news on it? Does he still have them and do they know what caused them?

He's still getting then Billy but is undergoing treatment. Sometimes those kind of things take a lot of trial and error before the correct treatment / medication can be found. He had scans done and it was verified that they weren't related to any impacts on the field. He should be back week after next I think.