Ireland November Tests.

First topic message reminder :

What would we like to see?
With ringrose definitely out, and henshaw and Payne looking unlikely, who shall step into the centre pairing?
If all our back row are fit whats the best combo?
Will tonner continue in the row or will he be usurped?

Lots of questions, and the season hasnt even started yet

Marshes wrote:Tom was the better of the two Farrells in the Connacht Munster. I don't understand this hatred for McCloskey and Henshaw partnership. They had some shaky moments expected with first start together, but did I miss something catastrophic? They were making tackles and clean breaks the two of them, against an Eddie Jones England side that didn't lose after that until us in the 2017 6N.

To parachute in Farrell even ahead of Luke Marshall (who has done well with Ireland) and Scannell (who is the form player of the two) is nonsensical. Its not like he is going anywhere, lets see if he can bed in at Munster and iron out his creases, then if he starts to show form get him in.

It isn't the McCloskey-Henshaw partnership, it's just McCloskey himself. I have no idea what Schmidt's beef is with McCloskey but he just doesn't like him and that's that. Maybe he is giving him one last chance, after doing so badly the first time...Bangor men aside, Schmidt loves a big battering ram at 12, so Marshall/Scannell are considered too skilful to feature.

One thing I will say regarding Chris Farrell, I think he is a better player than his appearances at Munster have suggested. The entire Munster backline can barely clock over 100 metres collectively, preferring the old school Munster way instead of actually creating or utilising space.

Pot Hale wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:My guess is post WC we will see a few players go elsewhere for a last big pay cheque

Yes. This is a good guess.  

Toner, Earls, Best, Murray, O’Mahony, Stander, Kearney, Kearney, Sexton, Heaslip, O’Brien, Aki, Trimble, Bowe, Diack, Gibson Park, Lowe, Taute, Bleyendaal would be a good start.  

Don't think Earls will be going anywhere, bearing in mind he turned down double what he is on from Saracens for his last contract.

At the end of the next World Cup he will be 32 - a big payday may tempt him then

Schmidt speaks out at the dropping of Zebo. Still think he is very wrong in this...

http://sportlocker.ie/no-exception-for-zebo-as-hes-not-on-sextons-level-says-schmidt/

eirebilly wrote:Schmidt speaks out at the dropping of Zebo. Still think he is very wrong in this...

http://sportlocker.ie/no-exception-for-zebo-as-hes-not-on-sextons-level-says-schmidt/

I don’t think he’s wrong. He says that it wouldn’t take much on the injury front to call him into Six Nations squad so it’s not an absolute ban. At the same time, he needs to develop players for the next two years and beyond. Zebo out of the picture gives opportunities to other players and reinforces the stay at home policy until post RWC 2019 anyway, when heads may get turned again. I note Henderson is making noises about receiving offers from other clubs for next season. And references whats happening with Zebo but noting that Zebo has a lot more caps than him. If Schmidt includes Zebo when he doesn’t have to, it could send the wrong signal. I suspect though, this is much a Nucifora decision as it is Schmidt’s.

It’s interesting that we should say or excuse joes picks for the November tests on variorus reasons. I believe that not picking Zebo is not that big a deal but then picking the Kearneys makes that a bit odd. Picking Chris Farrell over Rory Scannell makes it just weird. I mean this by the fact that Chris Farrell has not just been poor he has been a joke for Munster.

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:It’s interesting that we should say or excuse joes picks for the November tests on variorus reasons. I believe that not picking Zebo is not that big a deal but then picking the Kearneys makes that a bit odd. Picking Chris Farrell over Rory Scannell makes it just weird. I mean this by the fact that Chris Farrell has not just been poor he has been a joke for Munster.

Whole squad is a bit odd. Kearney is just weird - if either of them go to the RWC then I don't see much hope. Bit harsh to say Farrell is a joke though, one dimensional and solid and doesn't possess a fraction of Scannell's ball playing ability.
There's a few injuries, but it's a worrying direction.

Pot Hale wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Schmidt speaks out at the dropping of Zebo. Still think he is very wrong in this...

http://sportlocker.ie/no-exception-for-zebo-as-hes-not-on-sextons-level-says-schmidt/

I don’t think he’s wrong.   He says that it wouldn’t take much on the injury front to call him into Six Nations squad so it’s not an absolute ban.   At the same time, he needs to develop players for the next two years and beyond.   Zebo out of the picture gives opportunities to other players and reinforces the stay at home policy until post RWC 2019 anyway, when heads may get turned again.  I note Henderson is making noises about receiving offers from other clubs for next season.  And references whats happening with Zebo but noting that Zebo has a lot more caps than him.  If Schmidt includes Zebo when he doesn’t have to, it could send the wrong signal.  I suspect though, this is much a Nucifora decision as it is Schmidt’s.  

That is the thing though, he is not really developing players for the next two years if he is selecting the Kearney's. If he was to use this excuse then surely there are other players who are missing out that could have benefitted from being in the squad?

As I have said on the Ulster forum - either Henderson gets a guaranteed CC or he will leave.
He was promised one, verbally, this year (don't know by who) and is a bit cheesed off that it hasn't come through.

How secure is Nucifora in his job?

If the provinces continue to fall behind and someone like Henderson was to leave would he be worried?

eirebilly wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Schmidt speaks out at the dropping of Zebo. Still think he is very wrong in this...

http://sportlocker.ie/no-exception-for-zebo-as-hes-not-on-sextons-level-says-schmidt/

I don’t think he’s wrong.   He says that it wouldn’t take much on the injury front to call him into Six Nations squad so it’s not an absolute ban.   At the same time, he needs to develop players for the next two years and beyond.   Zebo out of the picture gives opportunities to other players and reinforces the stay at home policy until post RWC 2019 anyway, when heads may get turned again.  I note Henderson is making noises about receiving offers from other clubs for next season.  And references whats happening with Zebo but noting that Zebo has a lot more caps than him.  If Schmidt includes Zebo when he doesn’t have to, it could send the wrong signal.  I suspect though, this is much a Nucifora decision as it is Schmidt’s.  

That is the thing though, he is not really developing players for the next two years if he is selecting the Kearney's. If he was to use this excuse then surely there are other players who are missing out that could have benefitted from being in the squad?

He’s not really developing players if he is selecting the Kearneys. Well he is really developing players as well as selecting the Kearneys because clearly he believes they have value even if you or I don’t think so. Perhaps Rob Kearney is there as a graybeard to mentor some of the younger ones like Conway, Carbery. Perhaps if Zebo hadn’t left, R Kearney mightn’t have been selected.

I have to say, I cannot quite grasp how anyone with even the most basic knowledge of rugby would select Rob and Dave Kearney ahead of O'Halloran currently. I don't care how many trees they tear up in training - those lovely training sessions mean diddly squat on the match day it seems.

The only explanation is favouritism. Joe is still human, folks. The Kearney brothers are charming, I'm sure.

Ruck resourcing. That’s what it’s all about

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I have to say, I cannot quite grasp how anyone with even the most basic knowledge of rugby would select Rob and Dave Kearney ahead of O'Halloran currently. I don't care how many trees they tear up in training - those lovely training sessions mean diddly squat on the match day it seems.

The only explanation is favouritism. Joe is still human, folks. The Kearney brothers are charming, I'm sure.

TOH is also charming! Although one annoying thing that he often does when counter attacking is that he dawdles for the first 10 to 20 metres before putting on the after-burners to try and force a gap. On the odd occasion this works but mostly it just means his team have a gainline further back.

Joe will be taking no more than 5 players to the RWC that regularly play back three (especially as he has Henshaw, Ringrose and Payne(?) who have all played there).
Earls and Rob Kearney will be two of those five as he needs their experience in the squad.
Joey Carberry is likely to be another as he has genuine X factor and is also third 10.
That leaves two places for out and out wingers (which TOH isn't), precipitated by the Zebo situation.

As Ireland only have three tests to mix and match, it's hard to see where Joe could have fitted O'Halloran in except at the expense of Carberry while still having enough experienced players around to make it a conclusive test.

Pot Hale wrote:

He’s not really developing players if he is selecting the Kearneys.  Well he is really developing players as well as selecting the Kearneys because clearly he believes they have value even if you or I don’t think so.   Perhaps Rob Kearney is there as a graybeard to mentor some of the younger ones like Conway, Carbery.  Perhaps if Zebo hadn’t left, R Kearney mightn’t have been selected.  

There are any number of players that could have been brought into this squad for development ahead of the Kearney's. There is also enough experience surrounding them to help them adjust.

Selecting Dave Kearney who is average at best is the standout selection that amazes me the most. What has he done in the past for Ireland and what has he been doing for Leinster that warrants selection at all?

Chris Farrell is another bemusing one. He has done nothing at Munster to warrant international selection ahead of any number of better, in form, players.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I have to say, I cannot quite grasp how anyone with even the most basic knowledge of rugby would select Rob and Dave Kearney ahead of O'Halloran currently. I don't care how many trees they tear up in training - those lovely training sessions mean diddly squat on the match day it seems.

The only explanation is favouritism. Joe is still human, folks. The Kearney brothers are charming, I'm sure.

TOH is also charming! Although one annoying thing that he often does when counter attacking is that he dawdles for the first 10 to 20 metres before putting on the after-burners to try and force a gap. On the odd occasion this works but mostly it just means his team have a gainline further back.

Do not get this at all? Like all good 15's he takes a couple of steps to asses his attacking options before turning on the pace. Ever watched Hogg, he does exactly the same thing and he is regarded as one of the worlds leading 15's.

TOH made a number of silly errors against the Cheetahs - that's his problem inconsistency

From what I have seen of him TOH is not the finished article but I'm frustrated that Schmidt hasn't really given him a chance. I'd have no complaints if he gets badly exposed at international level - but why not trial him in this relatively unimportant Autumn series? We're not going to learn anything new about either of the Kearney bros.

In the past I might have given Schmidt the benefit of the doubt on these odd selections but I cast my mind back to the England game this year - fans were crying out for Heaslip to be dropped for POM and for Payne to start at 15. Schmidt was finally forced into these selections by injury and hey presto - our back row looked more balanced and we had more counter-attacking threat from full back that we've had in a long time.

eirebilly wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I have to say, I cannot quite grasp how anyone with even the most basic knowledge of rugby would select Rob and Dave Kearney ahead of O'Halloran currently. I don't care how many trees they tear up in training - those lovely training sessions mean diddly squat on the match day it seems.

The only explanation is favouritism. Joe is still human, folks. The Kearney brothers are charming, I'm sure.

TOH is also charming! Although one annoying thing that he often does when counter attacking is that he dawdles for the first 10 to 20 metres before putting on the after-burners to try and force a gap. On the odd occasion this works but mostly it just means his team have a gainline further back.

Do not get this at all? Like all good 15's he takes a couple of steps to asses his attacking options before turning on the pace. Ever watched Hogg, he does exactly the same thing and he is regarded as one of the worlds leading 15's.

Ever watch Christian Cullen?

I have, care to elaborate on what your point is Sin é?

eirebilly wrote:

I have, care to elaborate on what your point is Sin é?

No hesitation - just takes off like here (1.33) https://youtu.be/HSWq45VufaI?t=1m33s

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I have to say, I cannot quite grasp how anyone with even the most basic knowledge of rugby would select Rob and Dave Kearney ahead of O'Halloran currently. I don't care how many trees they tear up in training - those lovely training sessions mean diddly squat on the match day it seems.

The only explanation is favouritism. Joe is still human, folks. The Kearney brothers are charming, I'm sure.

Yeah I have to agree, I think Joe has handled the Zebedee thing badly, particularly so leaving out O'Halloran.

Dave Kearney has looked slow and ponderous for Leinster and Rob is there on reputation only. On form even Bowe is more deserving.

I think if Ireland don't have 3 convincing wins and a good 6N Joe will come under a lot of criticism.

I'm worried about the SA game actually, I can see them turning pulling off an upset.

I wouldn't have picked Rob Kearney myself however, he does have a habit of coming back and playing out of his skin for Ireland and defying the critics. When was the last time he had a bad game for Ireland? He was one of our best players for the NZ test in Chicago for example and in the six nations game v Scotland earlier this year.

Joe will come under a lot of criticism no matter what he does and no matter what the result. That has been the theme since day 1.

It is a shame to see Zebo go to France but I cant say I blame him.

Collapse2005 wrote:I wouldn't have picked Rob Kearney myself however, he does have a habit of coming back and playing out of his skin for Ireland and defying the critics. When was the last time he had a bad game for Ireland? He was one of our best players for the NZ test in Chicago for example and in the six nations game v Scotland earlier this year.

Joe will come under a lot of criticism no matter what he does and no matter what the result. That has been the theme since day 1.

It is a shame to see Zebo go to France but I cant say I blame him.

Rob epitomises a problem with Ireland in general. Inconsistent, and poor when he (or Ireland) should be playing well, but capable of a massive game every so often, leading his (or Schmidt's) fans to turn on the critics afterwards. But that just isn't a good reason for his selection, banking on him having those big games. Especially when you have players who are playing at a consistently high standard.

The thing is, there will be a time where the bad games are more frequent and the good games much rarer. Rob is getting on a bit.

Anyway, this will be the team:

McGrath - Best - Furlong
Toner - Henderson
O'Mahony - Stander - O'Brien
Murray - Sexton
Henshaw (at 12 because Schmidt must show the world he is right) - Aki
Stockdale - Kearney - Earls

Collapse2005 wrote:I wouldn't have picked Rob Kearney myself however, he does have a habit of coming back and playing out of his skin for Ireland and defying the critics. When was the last time he had a bad game for Ireland? He was one of our best players for the NZ test in Chicago for example and in the six nations game v Scotland earlier this year.

Joe will come under a lot of criticism no matter what he does and no matter what the result. That has been the theme since day 1.

It is a shame to see Zebo go to France but I cant say I blame him.

Exactly. So I say Joe should be brave and make that Call. The old punditry gig ain't working out too good for him and he gets a very bad case of foot-in-mouth every time his wife lets him near his social media accounts.... so I think he'd still be fit enough to slot in, he already has the record of the number of Last Games Ever in the one Season - so he comes back and he's often defied critics.

Good call Collapse. Joe must contact BOD before the weekend. He'll need that time to find his boots.

eirebilly wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I have to say, I cannot quite grasp how anyone with even the most basic knowledge of rugby would select Rob and Dave Kearney ahead of O'Halloran currently. I don't care how many trees they tear up in training - those lovely training sessions mean diddly squat on the match day it seems.

The only explanation is favouritism. Joe is still human, folks. The Kearney brothers are charming, I'm sure.

TOH is also charming! Although one annoying thing that he often does when counter attacking is that he dawdles for the first 10 to 20 metres before putting on the after-burners to try and force a gap. On the odd occasion this works but mostly it just means his team have a gainline further back.

Do not get this at all? Like all good 15's he takes a couple of steps to asses his attacking options before turning on the pace. Ever watched Hogg, he does exactly the same thing and he is regarded as one of the worlds leading 15's.

Big difference in taking a couple of steps to assess the options and 10 to 20m. O'Halloran sometimes takes far too long to make his mind up.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Anyway, this will be the team:

McGrath - Best - Furlong
Toner - Henderson
O'Mahony - Stander - O'Brien
Murray - Sexton
Henshaw (at 12 because Schmidt must show the world he is right) - Aki
Stockdale - Kearney - Earls

Cant argue with that really. Probably our best team too. Looking at that list I would love Rory Best to still captain Ireland into the RWC. Good team isn't it?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Rob epitomises a problem with Ireland in general. Inconsistent, and poor when he (or Ireland) should be playing well, but capable of a massive game every so often, leading his (or Schmidt's) fans to turn on the critics afterwards. But that just isn't a good reason for his selection, banking on him having those big games. Especially when you have players who are playing at a consistently high standard.

The thing is, there will be a time where the bad games are more frequent and the good games much rarer. Rob is getting on a bit.

Cant say I agree at all. Ireland's worst game was against Scotland this year. Kearney was one of our top three players.

I know he is really boring and comes across as a plank but he usually plays very well for Ireland despite how unpopular his selection seems to be each time.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Anyway, this will be the team:

McGrath - Best - Furlong
Toner - Henderson
O'Mahony - Stander - O'Brien
Murray - Sexton
Henshaw (at 12 because Schmidt must show the world he is right) - Aki
Stockdale - Kearney - Earls

Cant argue with that really. Probably our best team too. Looking at that list I would love Rory Best to still captain Ireland into the RWC. Good team isn't it?

Plenty to argue about if that was the team, in my opinion, in particular the stupid decision to persist with Henshaw at 12 when there are better options there and he is evidently much better at 13, which I have been saying for years now. Took others a while to catch on, but it seems to be unanimously agreed now, thankfully, with Schmidt being the exception. However, I have read that I may be wrong with the above selection and that he has indeed played Aki and Henshaw in the correct positions.

Oh, and of course, Rob. But out of the players he picked for the squad, he is probably the best option.

Looks like Earls and McGrath will miss out due to injury. Kearney and Healy to step in. Great to have proven international quality replacements at the ready. Testament to Schmidt's squad depth.

Collapse2005 wrote:Looks like Earls and McGrath will miss out due to injury. Kearney and Healy to step in. Great to have proven international quality replacements at the ready. Testament to Schmidt's squad depth.

What the heck is happening at training? I think Conway is in instead of Daverage.

By the way, are you Guns?

Collapse2005 wrote:Looks like Earls and McGrath will miss out due to injury. Kearney and Healy to step in. Great to have proven international quality replacements at the ready. Testament to Schmidt's squad depth.

...Dave?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Looks like Earls and McGrath will miss out due to injury. Kearney and Healy to step in. Great to have proven international quality replacements at the ready. Testament to Schmidt's squad depth.

...Dave?

No their brother, their sister is on standby to play because why pick anyone else when you can pick a Kearney?

Sin é wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Looks like Earls and McGrath will miss out due to injury. Kearney and Healy to step in. Great to have proven international quality replacements at the ready. Testament to Schmidt's squad depth.

What the heck is happening at training? I think Conway is in instead of Daverage.

By the way, are you Guns?

Collapse is the sequel to Guns Germs and Steel.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Looks like Earls and McGrath will miss out due to injury. Kearney and Healy to step in. Great to have proven international quality replacements at the ready. Testament to Schmidt's squad depth.

What the heck is happening at training? I think Conway is in instead of Daverage.

By the way, are you Guns?

Collapse is the sequel to Guns Germs and Steel.

I thought it was Eddie O'Sullivan.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Looks like Earls and McGrath will miss out due to injury. Kearney and Healy to step in. Great to have proven international quality replacements at the ready. Testament to Schmidt's squad depth.

What the heck is happening at training? I think Conway is in instead of Daverage.

By the way, are you Guns?

Collapse is the sequel to Guns Germs and Steel.

You should have gone for the presequel to Guns etc....

Sin é wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Looks like Earls and McGrath will miss out due to injury. Kearney and Healy to step in. Great to have proven international quality replacements at the ready. Testament to Schmidt's squad depth.

What the heck is happening at training? I think Conway is in instead of Daverage.

By the way, are you Guns?

Collapse is the sequel to Guns Germs and Steel.

You should have gone for the presequel to Guns etc....

Come on Sin. Enough about the Trump Presidency. I'm sick listening to that stuff. Back to the rugby please.

Which is the tougher game, v Argentina or v Fiji? Fiji have leapfrogged Argentina in the rankings but I reckon Argentina are probably better even though they tend to be quite weak in November.

Collapse2005 wrote:Which is the tougher game, v Argentina or v Fiji? Fiji have leapfrogged Argentina in the rankings but I reckon Argentina are probably better even though they tend to be quite weak in November.

As always it depends on what players are available to Fiji.

Anyone read this?

https://www.balls.ie/rugby/luke-fitzgerald-joe-schmidt-376945

Interesting perspective on Schmidt's methodology and confirms that there are players whose who have went away from a Schmidt session with their confidence shattered, which happened with Gilroy and McCloskey, who he also criticised for making too many breaks it seems.

Id say Luke Fitz is a coaches nightmare, bags of talent but I sense he isnt the sharpest tool in the shed. Probably not the quickest to pick things up.

Collapse2005 wrote:Id say Luke Fitz is a coaches nightmare, bags of talent but I sense he isnt the sharpest tool in the shed. Probably not the quickest to pick things up.

It's just odd that he would be yelled at for making a line-break. I always thought that the "Schmidt hates offloads" was a bit of an exaggerated joke, but perhaps he really doesn't like offloads or anything that goes against his plans? Then there was the bizarre criticisms of McCloskey after a decent debut (one of the few backs to do anything) and even worse Gilroy's cameo against Italy. They weren't the good little robots they should have been.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Id say Luke Fitz is a coaches nightmare, bags of talent but I sense he isnt the sharpest tool in the shed. Probably not the quickest to pick things up.

It's just odd that he would be yelled at for making a line-break. I always thought that the "Schmidt hates offloads" was a bit of an exaggerated joke, but perhaps he really doesn't like offloads or anything that goes against his plans? Then there was the bizarre criticisms of McCloskey after a decent debut (one of the few backs to do anything) and even worse Gilroy's cameo against Italy. They weren't the good little robots they should have been.

Fitz was one of those players with the equal ability to make a glorious line break and then do something incredibly stupid like pass it to an opposition player or knock it on. It tended to be a case of one brain fart after the other from Fitz. Id say it was more of a case of Schmidt being at his wits end with him.

What were the bizarre criticisms? If a player wants to get better at this level they need to able to take criticism. If they cant then international rugby is probably not for them.

I think that interview with Fitz pretty much summed up his career. No coach ever managed to harness his considerable talent to make him into a sensible effective player. Must have been really frustrating.

Here's a pretty good example of bizarre criticism: when a winger comes off the bench to score three tries, and the coach decides to lambast said winger for non-existant weaknesses that weren't evident at all in the same game. I guess he needed to downplay a winger who he ignored for so long and who scored more tries in one game than Dave Kearney in his entire career. Egg on face.

In general, why would a coach criticise his players for line-breaks, offloads and scoring individual tries? Perhaps it goes against the systems he has meticulously designed?

Good illustration with the shortcomings of Schmidt
He has qualities but he also has blindspots

I suspect McCloskey and Gilroy have been on the naughty step for the same reason
Dave Kearney doesn't make line breaks so he is in the good books

geoff999rugby wrote:Good illustration with the shortcomings of Schmidt
He has qualities but he also has blindspots

I suspect McCloskey and Gilroy have been on the naughty step for the same reason
Dave Kearney doesn't make line breaks so he is in the good books

As an outsider I was really impressed by McCloskey. He wasn't the finished article but did a lot of good stuff against us, and it seemed quite frankly bizarre that he disappeared from the Irish lineup so quickly..

lostinwales wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Good illustration with the shortcomings of Schmidt
He has qualities but he also has blindspots

I suspect McCloskey and Gilroy have been on the naughty step for the same reason
Dave Kearney doesn't make line breaks so he is in the good books

As an outsider I was really impressed by McCloskey. He wasn't the finished article but did a lot of good stuff against us, and it seemed quite frankly bizarre that he disappeared from the Irish lineup so quickly..

It's no coincidence that after being totally dropped from the Irish team that he had a real dip in form for the entirety of the following season. Stephen Ferris alluded to the same thing recently. Seems to have rediscovered his form this season, thankfully.

After watching the Argentina game earlier, this Autumn series might not be as useful for Ireland as it could have been

Players might pick up caps and put in decent performances but if Argentina put in another performance like they did today then Ireland wont really be tested.

Ireland haven't a great record against Los Pumas. Fiji and Argentina are two more opportunities to let the squad practice the systems. Joe won't take either lightly so both will be worthwhile games.