Ireland November Tests.

First topic message reminder :

What would we like to see?
With ringrose definitely out, and henshaw and Payne looking unlikely, who shall step into the centre pairing?
If all our back row are fit whats the best combo?
Will tonner continue in the row or will he be usurped?

Lots of questions, and the season hasnt even started yet

eirebilly wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

He's one of the best options despite only playing what? 4 games at 15 for Ireland?

How exactly is it incredibly poor to use Zebo as a deterrent? They pick him and players will think they can move to France and chase the money and play for Ireland which will weaken the provinces further or drive up salaries, the Ireland shirt is an incentive that keeps wages down for the provinces

You accuse me of using a strawman argument yet argue that Zebo may decide to come early?

Again, you fail to read or understand what has been said. Happy that you have actually learnt not to use the 'Red Blinker' straw man argument. You may posses the ability to learn after all.

I said that Zebo may return early, it is a possibility. He may not like France and miss Ireland. It happens to many, not sure I see that as a straw man argument so maybe you do not understand that concept of it yet. Keep plugging away and you will get it eventually

Also, keep thinking that the Kearney's are the future and player like TOH, Conway, Zebo or Gilroy no where near them.

Zebo, by the way, has a rather large amount of games at 15 for Munster so is very much considered a winger/fullback.

Complains about a straw man arguments then creates a straw man argument, very clever

I left the red blinkers out of because I thought there were more pertinent points to be made

As for the other options you argue for at 15, other than the fact one is off on his holidays, another is behind the soon to be holidaying Zebo and the other two have some serious defensive deficiencies as do others like Stockdale. Doing a decent job in the Pro14 is grand but there is a serious step up to Test level and the other options really aren't up to scratch at Pro14 never mind the highest level.

As I said, these are the same arguments about Kearney from a year ago, everyone changed their tune not long after it and now we are back to the start. Maybe we should see how the guy performs this weekend then judge him

marty2086 wrote:

As for the other options you argue for at 15, other than the fact one is off on his holidays, another is behind the soon to be holidaying Zebo and the other two have some serious defensive deficiencies as do others like Stockdale. Doing a decent job in the Pro14 is grand but there is a serious step up to Test level and the other options really aren't up to scratch at Pro14 never mind the highest level.

As I said, these are the same arguments about Kearney from a year ago, everyone changed their tune not long after it and now we are back to the start. Maybe we should see how the guy performs this weekend then judge him

Too simplistic. Rob Kearney did indeed exceed expectations against NZ and during the AIs last year and he received the praise he deserved from all quarters. However, there have been many games since then and he has picked up a lot of injuries, and worryingly for him a lot of it seems to be connected to the same hamstring issue. He is not a form pick, and he isn't getting any younger. He may exceed expectations again, but banking on that is hardly a good reason for selection. There really is no reason to ignore O'Halloran, for example, who is quite frankly just the better player.

As for the other options in comparison - you think that the Kearney brothers don't have defensive deficiencies of their own? Rob was once great under the high ball but he has been significantly weaker than in previous years. His tackling is non-existent. Dave is just a weak defender all around. I would argue that Adam Byrne is the only option seriously weaker than the rest.

marty2086 wrote:

Complains about a straw man arguments then creates a straw man argument, very clever

I left the red blinkers out of because I thought there were more pertinent points to be made

As for the other options you argue for at 15, other than the fact one is off on his holidays, another is behind the soon to be holidaying Zebo and the other two have some serious defensive deficiencies as do others like Stockdale. Doing a decent job in the Pro14 is grand but there is a serious step up to Test level and the other options really aren't up to scratch at Pro14 never mind the highest level.

As I said, these are the same arguments about Kearney from a year ago, everyone changed their tune not long after it and now we are back to the start. Maybe we should see how the guy performs this weekend then judge him

I would actually suggest that you left the 'red blinkers' comments out as it was clear that this was not the case and it was your own provincial bias raising its ugly head... Straw man argument .

Again, I say fair dues to you if you think that Rob Kearney is worthy of direct selection ahead of players who are the future and who are in form. Not something I will agree with. To me, the selection of the Kearney's is a waste of an opportunity for other players

Same goes with Farrell, a player that looks out of his depth at Munster yet gets into the Ireland squad, presumably due to his size, at the cost of better players (Scannell/Marshall),

I think Joe needs a bit of slack here, I'd be sure he had some last minute adjustments with the back 3 in response to Zebo leaving.

Given he has Sweetnam, Byrne and Stockdale I'd say he wanted to replace Zebo with someone experienced. Trimble is out of sorts so that left Disco Dave, McFadden or Bowe.

Rob K is one of the tier 1 centrally contracted players so he has to be included, same with Heaslip when he returns.

Deccie had the same issue and I expect Ruddock or Conan are only in due to Heaslip's injury.

It's not the squad I'd have picked personally but it's not too surprising given Joe likes to bring in new faces alongside experienced players.

eirebilly wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Complains about a straw man arguments then creates a straw man argument, very clever

I left the red blinkers out of because I thought there were more pertinent points to be made

As for the other options you argue for at 15, other than the fact one is off on his holidays, another is behind the soon to be holidaying Zebo and the other two have some serious defensive deficiencies as do others like Stockdale. Doing a decent job in the Pro14 is grand but there is a serious step up to Test level and the other options really aren't up to scratch at Pro14 never mind the highest level.

As I said, these are the same arguments about Kearney from a year ago, everyone changed their tune not long after it and now we are back to the start. Maybe we should see how the guy performs this weekend then judge him

I would actually suggest that you left the 'red blinkers' comments out as it was clear that this was not the case and it was your own provincial bias raising its ugly head... Straw man argument .

Again, I say fair dues to you if you think that Rob Kearney is worthy of direct selection ahead of players who are the future and who are in form. Not something I will agree with. To me, the selection of the Kearney's is a waste of an opportunity for other players

Same goes with Farrell, a player that looks out of his depth at Munster yet gets into the Ireland squad, presumably due to his size, at the cost of better players (Scannell/Marshall),

Considering the indignation from Munster fans en masse over Zebo it's easy to see where the red blinkers comment comes from though you could be right about me, an Ulsterman defending the selection of a Leinsterman is proof of provincial bias As for you saying calling for Farrell not to be picked proved you aren't bias, not even a Munster fan can try to polish that turd

You can argue for TOH and others but Zebos exclusion is clear and simple, I think though that some of the others have shortfalls that are preventing them getting picked. McCloskey inclusion shows what happens when you work on the weaknesses and he's a far better player for it.

Marty,

I cannot work you out. You are either a person who is incapable of reading fully what is written so invents what he cant understand or a person that reads everything and simply picks out little bits in order to create a fight.

Either way, I find you a rather scary and unstable individual so will no longer entertain you. Good luck with your next target

When Madigan signed for a French team, was he still being picked in the Irish 23 ahead of Jackson?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:When Madigan signed for a French team, was he still being picked in the Irish 23 ahead of Jackson?

Fair point Rory but at the same time like you say about Best and Kearney, are they comparable? Jackson was still in the squad but the way Joe configures his bench Madigan may have been more suitable at the time

I think people are overrating TOH a bit. His form this year and last year has been patchy due to injuries and Connacht not performing well. There isn't anywhere near this level of reaction from Connacht fans about his exclusion, from what I can see.

I do not necessarily feel its a reaction to TOH being left out but more to the Kearney's being included. Rob Kearney has not been playing so has no form whatsoever to judge against. TOH is still a better option by far as he has match fitness behind him.

Even Zebo has some match fitness behind him so believe it is a bit short sighted to overlook him as well.

Any truth behind SOB maybe leaving for France as well LF4L?

Golden wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:I enjoyed the lead into the main article there pot.
Kept me on the edge of my seat.

Damn you already changed it

Text Selection on a mobile can be a bit of a lottery, but I got there in the end...

Once replied to a work email on my phone.
Didn't read it back.
The female recipient luckily had a sense of humour.
As some may have taken offence with me asking how her anal went and could she send me a copy

Well don't leave us in suspense! How did it go?

The second half of the name of the company I work for is 'Analysis'. If I have my companie's website up on a browser sometimes the name gets trimmed.....

eirebilly wrote:I do not necessarily feel its a reaction to TOH being left out but more to the Kearney's being included. Rob Kearney has not been playing so has no form whatsoever to judge against. TOH is still a better option by far as he has match fitness behind him.

Even Zebo has some match fitness behind him so believe it is a bit short sighted to overlook him as well.

Any truth behind SOB maybe leaving for France as well LF4L?

Oh I agree Zebo should still be in the squad and Rob should have to prove his fitness and form but TOH being left out isn't that big a deal imo.

Who knows with SOB. He could take the money, it really wouldn't be a huge loss as he rarely plays for Leinster. I think he'll stay.

In fairness, I think SOB may even be pushed out by J VdF. That boys is some talent and will certainly be a starter for Ireland soon.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I do not necessarily feel its a reaction to TOH being left out but more to the Kearney's being included. Rob Kearney has not been playing so has no form whatsoever to judge against. TOH is still a better option by far as he has match fitness behind him.

Even Zebo has some match fitness behind him so believe it is a bit short sighted to overlook him as well.

Any truth behind SOB maybe leaving for France as well LF4L?

Oh I agree Zebo should still be in the squad and Rob should have to prove his fitness and form but TOH being left out isn't that big a deal imo.

Who knows with SOB. He could take the money, it really wouldn't be a  huge loss as he rarely plays for Leinster. I think he'll stay.

He and Heaslip are always off to France when they are negotiating with the IRFU, I take it they have the same agent?

Always end up with a nice fat contract at the end of it, I bet he gets a 3 year deal from the IRFU which makes very little sense when the RWC is 2 years away and they are a lot of options in the backrow for Ireland and Leinster

Rory_Gallagher wrote:When Madigan signed for a French team, was he still being picked in the Irish 23 ahead of Jackson?

It's Nucifera now who sets the rules on this, there was more flexibility previously to go outside the provinces.

I think Beirne should have been in ahead of Treadwell also but thems the rules.

rodders wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:When Madigan signed for a French team, was he still being picked in the Irish 23 ahead of Jackson?

It's Nucifera now who sets the rules on this, there was more flexibility previously to go outside the provinces.

I think Beirne should have been in ahead of Treadwell also but thems the rules.

But thems not the rules rodders as there are exceptions...

As I said earlier, either make the rules and standby them or have none.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I think people are overrating TOH a bit. His form this year and last year has been patchy due to injuries and Connacht not performing well. There isn't anywhere near this level of reaction from Connacht fans about his exclusion, from what I can see.

I'd be coming from a bit of a bias angle I recognise that, but I'd still say Tiernan O Halloran should be in that squad all day. He has had a few injuries, but on the summer tour for Ireland he was brilliant (linked very well with Earls) and for the better part of two years he has been one of the most consistent IQ back three players in the country.

If we are saying that TOH form has been disrupted by injury, I don't see how that doesn't apply to the Kearney Bros double, they have played much less frequently, maybe it is absence makes the heart grow fonder for Joe. I actually think rushing Rob Kearney back for this is unnecessary. But while I get that you could say that Rob's experience gets him in the squad (and I would agree with that), you can't tell me that Dave Kearney brings more to the table.

On top of that Adam Bryne coming in instead is also a bit farcical. Fantastic attacking ability, but he gets all at sea in defence, he is behind TOH in his development. Although I'd say he is mostly in there just to get exposure to the squad.

It worries me a bit that TOH may feel he has to move to one of the other provinces to get the exposure he needs for a green jersey. The last time I remember O Halloran and the Kearneys in the same picture he was fleecing both of them to score the opener in the Pro 12 final!

eirebilly wrote:

rodders wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:When Madigan signed for a French team, was he still being picked in the Irish 23 ahead of Jackson?

It's Nucifera now who sets the rules on this, there was more flexibility previously to go outside the provinces.

I think Beirne should have been in ahead of Treadwell also but thems the rules.

But thems not the rules rodders as there are exceptions...

As I said earlier, either make the rules and standby them or have none.

Which exceptions Billy? The rules came in last season and as far as I can see they are sticking with them.

rodders wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:When Madigan signed for a French team, was he still being picked in the Irish 23 ahead of Jackson?

It's Nucifera now who sets the rules on this, there was more flexibility previously to go outside the provinces.

I think Beirne should have been in ahead of Treadwell also but thems the rules.

Its a bit wierd though that Zebo is being expunged for the records despite his move not being complete, but Beirne isn't in despite committing to come back next season. To me should work consistently one way or the other..

Marshes wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I think people are overrating TOH a bit. His form this year and last year has been patchy due to injuries and Connacht not performing well. There isn't anywhere near this level of reaction from Connacht fans about his exclusion, from what I can see.

I'd be coming from a bit of a bias angle I recognise that, but I'd still say Tiernan O Halloran should be in that squad all day. He has had a few injuries, but on the summer tour for Ireland he was brilliant (linked very well with Earls) and for the better part of two years he has been one of the most consistent IQ back three players in the country.

If we are saying that TOH form has been disrupted by injury, I don't see how that doesn't apply to the Kearney Bros double, they have played much less frequently, maybe it is absence makes the heart grow fonder for Joe. I actually think rushing Rob Kearney back for this is unnecessary. But while I get that you could say that Rob's experience gets him in the squad (and I would agree with that), you can't tell me that Dave Kearney brings more to the table.

On top of that Adam Bryne coming in instead is also a bit farcical. Fantastic attacking ability, but he gets all at sea in defence, he is behind TOH in his development. Although I'd say he is mostly in there just to get exposure to the squad.

It worries me a bit that TOH may feel he has to move to one of the other provinces to get the exposure he needs for a green jersey. The last time I remember O Halloran and the Kearneys in the same picture he was fleecing both of them to score the opener in the Pro 12 final!

Good post, I agree with pretty much all of it. TOH consistently sits at the top of metres made and line breaks and has rarely had a poor game for Connacht, at least not in many of the games I have seen. And, as you rightly say, this will make him more likely to consider his options at other provinces or abroad.

Marshes wrote:

rodders wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:When Madigan signed for a French team, was he still being picked in the Irish 23 ahead of Jackson?

It's Nucifera now who sets the rules on this, there was more flexibility previously to go outside the provinces.

I think Beirne should have been in ahead of Treadwell also but thems the rules.

Its a bit wierd though that Zebo is being expunged for the records despite his move not being complete, but Beirne isn't in despite committing to come back next season. To me should work consistently one way or the other..

Zebos move is complete though, it's just not been announced where his destination is though he has told the IRFU he's not staying in Ireland

These arguments, some valid, some.....not so, are all in reference to the squad for the November internationals. Lets not forget that. Lets not forget that the likes of Farrell may well be in there because he can hold 2 tackle bags at once. Some of the players on this squad will not be selected for the 6n which will be the squad that really counts.
It still doesn't explain the exemption of Zebo and O'Halloran when the Kearndasians are included. If the IRFU is making an example of Zebo then they're throwing out the baby with the bathwater and spitting the dummy simultaneously. There are other ways to stop players from leaving the provinces, I'm not sure the punishment route is the best way to go.

Marshes wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I think people are overrating TOH a bit. His form this year and last year has been patchy due to injuries and Connacht not performing well. There isn't anywhere near this level of reaction from Connacht fans about his exclusion, from what I can see.

I'd be coming from a bit of a bias angle I recognise that, but I'd still say Tiernan O Halloran should be in that squad all day. He has had a few injuries, but on the summer tour for Ireland he was brilliant (linked very well with Earls) and for the better part of two years he has been one of the most consistent IQ back three players in the country.

If we are saying that TOH form has been disrupted by injury, I don't see how that doesn't apply to the Kearney Bros double, they have played much less frequently, maybe it is absence makes the heart grow fonder for Joe. I actually think rushing Rob Kearney back for this is unnecessary. But while I get that you could say that Rob's experience gets him in the squad (and I would agree with that), you can't tell me that Dave Kearney brings more to the table.

On top of that Adam Bryne coming in instead is also a bit farcical. Fantastic attacking ability, but he gets all at sea in defence, he is behind TOH in his development. Although I'd say he is mostly in there just to get exposure to the squad.

It worries me a bit that TOH may feel he has to move to one of the other provinces to get the exposure he needs for a green jersey. The last time I remember O Halloran and the Kearneys in the same picture he was fleecing both of them to score the opener in the Pro 12 final!

Don't get me wrong I think that TOH should be in the squad ahead of Rob but I just don't think his form has merited kicking up this much of a fuss about.

Every coach has their favourites that's nothing knew and Rob and his brother were a big part of his great Leinster and Ireland teams. I trust Joe and his team know what they're doing here. He is one of the best coaches out there let's remember.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Marshes wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I think people are overrating TOH a bit. His form this year and last year has been patchy due to injuries and Connacht not performing well. There isn't anywhere near this level of reaction from Connacht fans about his exclusion, from what I can see.

I'd be coming from a bit of a bias angle I recognise that, but I'd still say Tiernan O Halloran should be in that squad all day. He has had a few injuries, but on the summer tour for Ireland he was brilliant (linked very well with Earls) and for the better part of two years he has been one of the most consistent IQ back three players in the country.

If we are saying that TOH form has been disrupted by injury, I don't see how that doesn't apply to the Kearney Bros double, they have played much less frequently, maybe it is absence makes the heart grow fonder for Joe. I actually think rushing Rob Kearney back for this is unnecessary. But while I get that you could say that Rob's experience gets him in the squad (and I would agree with that), you can't tell me that Dave Kearney brings more to the table.

On top of that Adam Bryne coming in instead is also a bit farcical. Fantastic attacking ability, but he gets all at sea in defence, he is behind TOH in his development. Although I'd say he is mostly in there just to get exposure to the squad.

It worries me a bit that TOH may feel he has to move to one of the other provinces to get the exposure he needs for a green jersey. The last time I remember O Halloran and the Kearneys in the same picture he was fleecing both of them to score the opener in the Pro 12 final!

Don't get me wrong I think that TOH should be in the squad ahead of Rob but I just don't think his form has merited kicking up this much of a fuss about.

Every coach has their favourites that's nothing knew and Rob and his brother were a big part of his great Leinster and Ireland teams. I trust Joe and his team know what they're doing here. He is one of the best coaches out there let's remember.

It's not always about favourites either it's about trust too, if he knows what Kearney I or II will give him or believes he can get more out of them than people have seen for Leinster then is that such a bad thing?

It can also be about game plans, if he feels they are better suited to his then square pegs in round holes isn't the best way to go

Just watched the Munster Connacht game. Scannell the best center on show. Aki was anonymous, Farrell is beginning to confirm that he is a waste of money. Keatley started well but faded badly ( as usual). TOH did some decent stuff but still a bit flakey. Murray more obvious than marmion. Kilcoyne still a penalty machine, Stander non existent, POM in fairness struggled manfully in trying to firefight all over the shop. Red card for Conway a bit harsh but meh. Zebo was good overall. Mostly in the last 10 mins when his passing and distribution as first receiver was excellent. Pity he doesn’t get more time carrying out that role.

Not important in the Irish scheme of things but whoever thought he was a good rugby footballer was clearly blind and was maybe looking at a Kerry all Ireland circa 1978. He was crap and probably cost us the game. Completely clueless

Marshes wrote:

rodders wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:When Madigan signed for a French team, was he still being picked in the Irish 23 ahead of Jackson?

It's Nucifera now who sets the rules on this, there was more flexibility previously to go outside the provinces.

I think Beirne should have been in ahead of Treadwell also but thems the rules.

Its a bit wierd though that Zebo is being expunged for the records despite his move not being complete, but Beirne isn't in despite committing to come back next season. To me should work consistently one way or the other..

I'm not that surprised about Beirne being called up. He is still playing for the Scarlets and will be competing for silverware later on in the season against all those Irish players in the Pro14.

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Just watched the Munster Connacht game. Scannell the best center on show. Aki was anonymous, Farrell is beginning to confirm that he is a waste of money. Keatley started well but faded badly ( as usual). TOH did some decent stuff but still a bit flakey. Murray more obvious than marmion. Kilcoyne still a penalty machine, Stander non existent, POM in fairness struggled manfully in trying to firefight all over the shop. Red card for Conway a bit harsh but meh. Zebo was good overall. Mostly in the last 10 mins when his passing and distribution as first receiver was excellent. Pity he doesn’t get more time carrying out that role.

Not important in the Irish scheme of things but whoever thought he was a good rugby footballer was clearly blind and was maybe looking at a Kerry all Ireland circa 1978. He was crap and probably cost us the game. Completely clueless

DOD, who are you talking about here?

I'm going to guess JJ...

JJ. He was useless

So after this weekend’s derbies who put up their hand for Schmidt to notice?

Stockdale did well. So did Rob Kearney.
Aki was the only midfielder who really shone. C Farrell and McCloskey were marshallow. Tom Farrell at Connacht did well but he’s not selected.
Luke McGrath is looking more lively and with his two tries against Ulster should get the bench.
Ross Byrne was probably the best of the outhalves but he’s not selected either.

Anyone else stick out?

Thought Luke Marshall did well tonight but wasn't given much to work with but he's another not selected

Pot Hale wrote:So after this weekend’s derbies who put up their hand for Schmidt to notice?

Stockdale did well.  So did Rob Kearney.
Aki was the only midfielder who really shone.  C Farrell and McCloskey were marshallow.  Tom Farrell at Connacht did well but he’s not selected.
Luke McGrath is looking more lively and with his two tries against Ulster should get the bench.
Ross Byrne was probably the best of the outhalves but he’s not selected either.

Anyone else stick out?  

Aki was anonymous. Not sure what you were watching. Stockdale was mediocre. Leinster played better when daveaverage was off the pitch. RK was brilliant at doing nothing in particular. Personally Scannell and Zebo put their hands up. Overall very underwhelming but then again the selection criteria for Ireland seems to have underwhelming at the top of the page.

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:So after this weekend’s derbies who put up their hand for Schmidt to notice?

Stockdale did well.  So did Rob Kearney.
Aki was the only midfielder who really shone.  C Farrell and McCloskey were marshallow.  Tom Farrell at Connacht did well but he’s not selected.
Luke McGrath is looking more lively and with his two tries against Ulster should get the bench.
Ross Byrne was probably the best of the outhalves but he’s not selected either.

Anyone else stick out?  

Aki was anonymous. Not sure what you were watching. Stockdale was mediocre. Leinster played better when daveaverage was off the pitch. RK was brilliant at doing nothing in particular. Personally Scannell and Zebo put their hands up. Overall very underwhelming but then again the selection criteria for Ireland seems to have underwhelming at the top of the page.

I liked Aki’s Anonymity to set up the try. What match did you watch?

Having watched the 2 derbies I'd say no one from 10 to 15 put their hands.

Not one outstanding performance
1/2 were average, 1/2 were poor

Aki, Tom Farrell, Scannell, Zebo, Stockdale, Rob Kearney (those praised above) did nothing to get excited about

2 awful games of rugby - both with an appalling low level of skill on display

Pot Hale wrote:

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:So after this weekend’s derbies who put up their hand for Schmidt to notice?

Stockdale did well.  So did Rob Kearney.
Aki was the only midfielder who really shone.  C Farrell and McCloskey were marshallow.  Tom Farrell at Connacht did well but he’s not selected.
Luke McGrath is looking more lively and with his two tries against Ulster should get the bench.
Ross Byrne was probably the best of the outhalves but he’s not selected either.

Anyone else stick out?  

Aki was anonymous. Not sure what you were watching. Stockdale was mediocre. Leinster played better when daveaverage was off the pitch. RK was brilliant at doing nothing in particular. Personally Scannell and Zebo put their hands up. Overall very underwhelming but then again the selection criteria for Ireland seems to have underwhelming at the top of the page.

I liked Aki’s Anonymity to set up the try.  What match did you watch?

Your kidding me. Rugby player makes basic pass. Others do the work. Or maybe you missed scannels contribution to the Zebo try. Aki did fa all game and has done fa for Connacht since lam announced he was leaving. He will be off to France after getting a few caps.

Aki butchered a try - don't forget that

marty2086 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I do not necessarily feel its a reaction to TOH being left out but more to the Kearney's being included. Rob Kearney has not been playing so has no form whatsoever to judge against. TOH is still a better option by far as he has match fitness behind him.

Even Zebo has some match fitness behind him so believe it is a bit short sighted to overlook him as well.

Any truth behind SOB maybe leaving for France as well LF4L?

Oh I agree Zebo should still be in the squad and Rob should have to prove his fitness and form but TOH being left out isn't that big a deal imo.

Who knows with SOB. He could take the money, it really wouldn't be a  huge loss as he rarely plays for Leinster. I think he'll stay.

He and Heaslip are always off to France when they are negotiating with the IRFU, I take it they have the same agent?

Always end up with a nice fat contract at the end of it, I bet he gets a 3 year deal from the IRFU which makes very little sense when the RWC is 2 years away and they are a lot of options in the backrow for Ireland and Leinster

Sean O’Brien a contract extension in Dec 2015. It runs until after RWC 2019.
Heaslip agreed new contract in Feb this year. Post RWC for him too.
Ditto for Murray and Earls.
O’Mahony is June 2018.
Toner is June 2020.

I don’t think pat hole is looking to answer any concerns regarding his observations this weekend. Then again the blue magoos /  joepologists don’t tend to.

Luckily Ireland have a misfiring SA and Argentina for November. Lots of paper to cover the cracks.

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:I don’t think pat hole is looking to answer any concerns regarding his observations this weekend. Then again the blue magoos /  joepologists don’t tend to.

Luckily Ireland have a misfiring SA and Argentina for November. Lots of paper to cover the cracks.

Sorry, No sport for wimpy, I didn’t see any concerns expressed. What were they?

My guess is post WC we will see a few players go elsewhere for a last big pay cheque

geoff999rugby wrote:Having watched the 2 derbies I'd say no one from 10 to 15 put their hands.

Not one outstanding performance
1/2 were average, 1/2 were poor

Aki, Tom Farrell, Scannell, Zebo, Stockdale, Rob Kearney (those praised above) did nothing to get excited about

2 awful games of rugby - both with an appalling low level of skill on display

Agree they were very poor standard, maybe a hangover from Europe.

geoff999rugby wrote:My guess is post WC we will see a few players go elsewhere for a last big pay cheque

Yes. This is a good guess.

Toner, Earls, Best, Murray, O’Mahony, Stander, Kearney, Kearney, Sexton, Heaslip, O’Brien, Aki, Trimble, Bowe, Diack, Gibson Park, Lowe, Taute, Bleyendaal would be a good start.

Best wont he will retire but not bad list.

geoff999rugby wrote:Best wont he will retire but not  bad list.

Agreed, a few others will too.

Form Irish XV:

1) Healy (McGrath will start)
2) Best (of a bad bunch after Scannell's injury)
3) Furlong
4) Henderson
5) Toner
6) Ruddock (O'Mahony may start)
7) O'Brien (would have been JvdF had he not been injured)
8) Conan (Stander will probably start)
9) Murray
10) Sexton
11) Earls
12) McCloskey (could have been Scannell but left out of squad)
13) Henshaw
14) Stockdale
15) Carbery

Rob Kearney will start at 15 and the centres will probably be Henshaw (at 12) and Aki.

Rory I think you have the form starting XV spot on

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Rob Kearney will start at 15 and the centres will probably be Henshaw (at 12) and Aki.

I've a bad feeling Farrell will start against SA, he's almost a pet project for Joe

marty2086 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Rob Kearney will start at 15 and the centres will probably be Henshaw (at 12) and Aki.

I've a bad feeling Farrell will start against SA, he's almost a pet project for Joe

That really wouldn't make any sense, and yet I have a feeling you could be right.

Tom was the better of the two Farrells in the Connacht Munster. I don't understand this hatred for McCloskey and Henshaw partnership. They had some shaky moments expected with first start together, but did I miss something catastrophic? They were making tackles and clean breaks the two of them, against an Eddie Jones England side that didn't lose after that until us in the 2017 6N.

To parachute in Farrell even ahead of Luke Marshall (who has done well with Ireland) and Scannell (who is the form player of the two) is nonsensical. Its not like he is going anywhere, lets see if he can bed in at Munster and iron out his creases, then if he starts to show form get him in.

Pot Hale wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:My guess is post WC we will see a few players go elsewhere for a last big pay cheque

Yes. This is a good guess.  

Toner, Earls, Best, Murray, O’Mahony, Stander, Kearney, Kearney, Sexton, Heaslip, O’Brien, Aki, Trimble, Bowe, Diack, Gibson Park, Lowe, Taute, Bleyendaal would be a good start.  

Also Aki for me is a very weird one. He is most likely going to leave Ireland at the end of his next contract for a payday, which will rule him out of international contention. But he is going to nail his colours to the Irish mast for 12/18 months of possible international time? And still be behind Henshaw, Ringrose, Payne in the pecking order, and competing with Scannell, Luke Marshall, and Farrell? Just doesn't seem like much of an opportunity.

Rather than make the argument of Neil Francis whole integrity nonsense, as much as I am a massive Bundee fan, I have qualms with it in I think we could be being used as a shop window there.