Ireland November Tests.

First topic message reminder :

What would we like to see?
With ringrose definitely out, and henshaw and Payne looking unlikely, who shall step into the centre pairing?
If all our back row are fit whats the best combo?
Will tonner continue in the row or will he be usurped?

Lots of questions, and the season hasnt even started yet

Marshes wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:The drop off from Murray to Marmion is huge. It's up to McGrath and Cooney to prove they are better. Joe has always been slow to make such changes but going on that display today he may be tempted to speed things up.

Yeah not Marms best performance to be honest, but I don't think it proves he isn't up to the required level, particularly when we have seem him play to the required level vs England, on the summer tour, and last week against South Africa. Really that's the first time in a Irish jersey that he has disappointed for me, but if that opens the door for one of the other two he can't complain too much. Would be harsh to drop him for McGrath who is in no position to be pointing fingers about consistency. I'd still have him as Murray's backup, lets see what was learned if he gets time against Argentina.

Looking at the rest of the performances aside from Conway and McCloskey I would say there are plenty of work ons for the rest of the backs, and when it's a whole line change I'm not surprised the performance we saw some disjointed performances.

I think that McGrath should have started against Fiji simply because he has more familiarity with Carbery (not that much, mind) than Marmion. But yes, it would be mad to give up on Marmion based on one poor game. He has been very good starting for Ireland against much better opposition (England last year). He will be disappointed for wasting that opportunity though.

Golden wrote:Carbery broke his arm during the match so will be out for a considerable amount of time. Keatley will be on the bench against Arg.  Whose 3rd choice now? Must be Byrne/Carty.

Was it a fracture or a break Golden? Hopefully the former, should be back shortly after Christmas if that's the case. I would probably bring Rory Scannell if anyone is going to be called up, and seriously consider him for the 22 shirt against Argentina. Not sure why he didn't make the squad in the first place.

So, when all is said and done.... IS Joey Carberry finally and potentially our very new 'BOD'?  Is he finally a player with magic enough at his fingertips and turn of pace, and with youthfulness on his side (Sexton was still impatiently waiting for O'Gara to move on at the same age) to give us that explosive impulse that can change games in an instant of genius and brilliance?

Or is he the biggest chancer on the Planet?

I have to include the latter proposal to deaden the screams of disquiet about his points kicking (whilst I try to dutifully forget that Sexton has never exactly been Johnny Wilkinson in that department himself)

He has great skill and is an all round good player. Only concern would be is he quite injury prone? Is he a bit lightweight?

Collapse2005 wrote:He has great skill and is an all round good player. Only concern would be is he quite injury prone? Is he a bit lightweight?

But he is still relatively young and will undoubtedly bulk out some more but yes, that to me seems the big danger in his career, the concern that he might have a short one if liable to be thrown around on the field.   But then too, it's his very gazelle-like frame that allows him to pull off some of the stuff he does.  So it's 50-50 what you want from him.  As they say about New Zealand, their creative sparks are never too big and tough looking.

Needs to develop his decision making at 10 - not easy when you don't play 10 for your province.
He could become another Madigan rather than an top International 10.

Actually the best move for him, although it wont happen in a million years, is move to Ulster.
Desperate for 10 with Jackson almost certainly away and allows Bryne to develop as Sextons understudy.

geoff999rugby wrote:Needs to develop his decision making at 10 - not easy when you don't play 10 for your province.
He could become another Madigan rather than an top International 10.

Actually the best move for him, although it wont happen in a million years, is move to Ulster.
Desperate for 10 with Jackson almost certainly away and allows Bryne to develop as Sextons understudy.

Ah he's just okay and sure we'll take him off your hands if you want us to...... Good go, Geoff!

Marshes wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:The drop off from Murray to Marmion is huge. It's up to McGrath and Cooney to prove they are better. Joe has always been slow to make such changes but going on that display today he may be tempted to speed things up.

Yeah not Marms best performance to be honest, but I don't think it proves he isn't up to the required level, particularly when we have seem him play to the required level vs England, on the summer tour, and last week against South Africa. Really that's the first time in a Irish jersey that he has disappointed for me, but if that opens the door for one of the other two he can't complain too much. Would be harsh to drop him for McGrath who is in no position to be pointing fingers about consistency. I'd still have him as Murray's backup, lets see what was learned if he gets time against Argentina.

Looking at the rest of the performances aside from Conway and McCloskey I would say there are plenty of work ons for the rest of the backs, and when it's a whole line change I'm not surprised the performance we saw some disjointed performances.

Agreed but someone needs to step up to the mark. Marmion has been a solid off the bench but we need someone pushing Murray for the shirt and he's not even close. We simply have zero depth and god forbid, if anything happened to Murray we'd be stuffed.

Pete330v2 wrote:

Marshes wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:The drop off from Murray to Marmion is huge. It's up to McGrath and Cooney to prove they are better. Joe has always been slow to make such changes but going on that display today he may be tempted to speed things up.

Yeah not Marms best performance to be honest, but I don't think it proves he isn't up to the required level, particularly when we have seem him play to the required level vs England, on the summer tour, and last week against South Africa. Really that's the first time in a Irish jersey that he has disappointed for me, but if that opens the door for one of the other two he can't complain too much. Would be harsh to drop him for McGrath who is in no position to be pointing fingers about consistency. I'd still have him as Murray's backup, lets see what was learned if he gets time against Argentina.

Looking at the rest of the performances aside from Conway and McCloskey I would say there are plenty of work ons for the rest of the backs, and when it's a whole line change I'm not surprised the performance we saw some disjointed performances.

Agreed but someone needs to step up to the mark. Marmion has been a solid off the bench but we need someone pushing Murray for the shirt and he's not even close. We simply have zero depth and god forbid, if anything happened to Murray we'd be stuffed.

Seemed to get on okay against the number 2 team in the world last year...

geoff999rugby wrote:Needs to develop his decision making at 10 - not easy when you don't play 10 for your province.
He could become another Madigan rather than an top International 10.

Actually the best move for him, although it wont happen in a million years, is move to Ulster.
Desperate for 10 with Jackson almost certainly away and allows Bryne to develop as Sextons understudy.

Now that's work for me too. Could we get him after Xmas some time perhaps in a provincial sharing move. We could send Deysel in return

I think many here are reading far to much into one poor performance.
Marmion was awful but he is a good scrum half and a decent backup.
I am far more comfortable with him at 9 than any of the alternatives at 10 (assuming Jackson is AWOL)

Pete330v2 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Needs to develop his decision making at 10 - not easy when you don't play 10 for your province.
He could become another Madigan rather than an top International 10.

Actually the best move for him, although it wont happen in a million years, is move to Ulster.
Desperate for 10 with Jackson almost certainly away and allows Bryne to develop as Sextons understudy.

Now that's work for me too. Could we get him after Xmas some time perhaps in a provincial sharing move. We could send Deysel in return

The way he has been playing I'd gladly send Deysel anywhere - complete and utter waste of a NIQ spot

You're right Geoff.... it was a side that just went too far down the yellow brick road.... too many loose straw men and uptight steel men.  Joe knows he tried to be too smart with the lineup - he almost got burned, Dorothy almost didn't get to Oz and the miserly Oz Ref didn't help things either........................  - I don't think anyone mentioned him yet but he played a not insignificant part in the game too.

But even though that game was a blip game in the Autumn season because of its overly green makeup.... I still think we're headed for a rocky road against the Argentinians.  From what was a lovely and surprisingly easy beginning to the Autumn series, we have to refocus on the truth that we can't still afford to lose too many central players from this side.  We're exactly where we were when last we met Argentina actually - still trying to find a second team of hard hitting players that will afford some real rest periods to our central hub of players through a tough series of games like the WC..

Pete330v2 wrote:

Marshes wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:The drop off from Murray to Marmion is huge. It's up to McGrath and Cooney to prove they are better. Joe has always been slow to make such changes but going on that display today he may be tempted to speed things up.

Yeah not Marms best performance to be honest, but I don't think it proves he isn't up to the required level, particularly when we have seem him play to the required level vs England, on the summer tour, and last week against South Africa. Really that's the first time in a Irish jersey that he has disappointed for me, but if that opens the door for one of the other two he can't complain too much. Would be harsh to drop him for McGrath who is in no position to be pointing fingers about consistency. I'd still have him as Murray's backup, lets see what was learned if he gets time against Argentina.

Looking at the rest of the performances aside from Conway and McCloskey I would say there are plenty of work ons for the rest of the backs, and when it's a whole line change I'm not surprised the performance we saw some disjointed performances.

Agreed but someone needs to step up to the mark. Marmion has been a solid off the bench but we need someone pushing Murray for the shirt and he's not even close. We simply have zero depth and god forbid, if anything happened to Murray we'd be stuffed.

Marmion was very exposed by the backrow (who were just about ok) so I wouldn't read too much into his performance last week.

The thing is, that back row (with van der Flier at 7) has been the form back row in Ireland this season. Maybe van der Flier is that important in that particular combination, he is a real workhorse. Conan did really well in his role, he beat what, 5 defenders or something? And scored a try from the halfway line. When was the last time one of our 8s did that? He just needs the right players alongside him.

Besides, in the modern game the breakdown involves a lot more than just the back row, so it was to be expected with such an inexperienced team.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The thing is, that back row (with van der Flier at 7) has been the form back row in Ireland this season. Maybe van der Flier is that important in that particular combination, he is a real workhorse. Conan did really well in his role, he beat what, 5 defenders or something? And scored a try from the halfway line. When was the last time one of our 8s did that? He just needs the right players alongside him.

Besides, in the modern game the breakdown involves a lot more than just the back row, so it was to be expected with such an inexperienced team.

The thing is that Conan would have been better off looking after his 9. That backrow were not clued in - I know Jordi Murphy is a bit short on match fitness and perhaps the three of them are a bit too similar to have in the same backrow. I think Ruddock will be the new Leo Cullen in the team though. Conan - I'm not sure. Could be just lacking a bit of the zip that he had last season.

Should Conan be playing in an all-Leinster back row? All a bit too comfortable? Does it need a interprovincial edginess/competition? O’Mahony at 6 with vdFlier/Leavy and Conan as one combo; Ruddock, O’Brien/O’Donnell, Stander as the other? Or some other variant?

Pot Hale wrote:Should Conan be playing in an all-Leinster back row?  All a bit too comfortable?  Does it need a interprovincial edginess/competition? O’Mahony at 6 with vdFlier/Leavy and Conan as one combo; Ruddock, O’Brien/O’Donnell, Stander as the other?   Or some other variant?

I'd always put POM and SOB together as they compliment each other with either Stander/Conan
Otherwise I'd have
Ruddock or Stander with VdeF /Heaslip.

POM would get in my backrow because he is probably the best lineout backrower in the world - up there (excuse pun) with Harinordoquy.

POM is very over-rated though. He had a terrible Lions tour.

Cyril wrote:POM, best back line-out back-row in the world?

Heh heh!

Well, who do you think is better?

Sin é wrote:

Cyril wrote:POM, best back line-out back-row in the world?

Heh heh!

Well, who do you think is better?

He's a bit like Croft (sadly retired).

If you pick a back-row based on line-out only you're in trouble.

Ireland need to look more towards the England model. Unfortunately (for you) the depth is tricky.

I've never really rated POM. I thought he might be a decent captain (for grunt and fervour) but the Lions caught him out.

Cyril wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Cyril wrote:POM, best back line-out back-row in the world?

Heh heh!

Well, who do you think is better?

He's a bit like Croft (sadly retired).

If you pick a back-row based on line-out only you're in trouble.

Ireland need to look more towards the England model.

Like this?

https://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/no-one-possibly-enjoyed-peter-omahonys-lineout-steal-ronan-ogara-117441

2nd video down.

edit: Tom Croft was a show pony.

We can all make one-off vids though.

Shane Geraghty looked like a world-beater on a YouTube vid I saw. O'Gara was a Lions hero if you ignore almost every video.

Cyril wrote:We can all make one-off vids though.

Shane Geraghty looked like a world-beater on a YouTube vid I saw. O'Gara was a Lions hero if you ignore almost every video.

He does that all the time. I picked that one because it shows Ireland destroying the English lineout which is a model you recommended that Ireland follow. That lineout that England lost (and Ireland won) deprived England of a Grand Slam and put POM on the Lions Tour.

Sin é wrote:

Cyril wrote:We can all make one-off vids though.

Shane Geraghty looked like a world-beater on a YouTube vid I saw. O'Gara was a Lions hero if you ignore almost every video.

He does that all the time. I picked that one because it shows Ireland destroying the English lineout which is a model you recommended that Ireland follow. That lineout that England lost (and Ireland won) deprived England of a Grand Slam and put POM on the Lions Tour.

POM is all but finished (like Ireland under Schmidt). England are on the rise with Jones. POM is yesterdays man, a bit like Munster. It's a shame as I quite like the Munster history.

Pot Hale wrote:Should Conan be playing in an all-Leinster back row?  All a bit too comfortable?  Does it need a interprovincial edginess/competition? O’Mahony at 6 with vdFlier/Leavy and Conan as one combo; Ruddock, O’Brien/O’Donnell, Stander as the other?   Or some other variant?

I don't see why not if all three were the best in their position and performed well together. Of course it needs competition, but you still pick the best players. Realistically, at the minute the back row will be made up of Leinstermen with the addition of Stander and O'Mahony.

England definitely aren't unbeatable. In fairness though they racked up a big score v Australia (with a bit of luck) while playing really crap and I think Argentina are much better than people are making out.

I think you would have to admit that England haven't looked that convincing since they lost to Ireland.

Statistically Ireland are very much on the up if you look at win loss ratios and they are the longest win streak in world rugby at the moment.

Cyril wrote:POM is very over-rated though. He had a terrible Lions tour.

He's only a Mercenary with De Lions. Ain't no heart in that stuff. A showpony side that people try to pick up the auld Knighthoods and stuff with.

A Terrible Lions tour? Good on him. Bravo POM. - Save himself for the 6N, like the French and the Scots....

SecretFly wrote:

Cyril wrote:POM is very over-rated though. He had a terrible Lions tour.

He's only a Mercenary with De Lions.  Ain't no heart in that stuff.  A showpony side that people try to pick up the auld Knighthoods and stuff with.

A Terrible Lions tour?  Good on him.  Bravo POM. - Save himself for the 6N, like the French and the Scots....

It's funny because it's true Fly
POM is anything but overrated, I'd put him firmly in the very underrated category. He punches well above his weight and brings much, much more to a Munster or Ireland side than just manic physicality. He's no legend, he's a LIGIND!!!!

He hardly had a terrible Lions tour. However, he may have been a little tired after bullying the English pack in the Six Nations, something Cyril seems to have forgot. His golden boys didn't turn up that day, did they?

Unfair. I think they did but weren't good enough on the day.

Every player is overrated I think...in reality.... expect that English player Ewel.

POM is, like a lot of Lions players, having a dip in form but he is only 28 and will be fine.
He does remain an outstanding option in the line out and in this day and age you really need a 3rd jumper at the top level.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:He hardly had a terrible Lions tour. However, he may have been a little tired after bullying the English pack in the Six Nations, something Cyril seems to have forgot. His golden boys didn't turn up that day, did they?

The English had turned up at the previous four games though - how did Ireland get on in the grand scheme of things? You do know its called the Six Nations tournament don't you? Its not the one-off match when we have no chance of winning the tournament because we assumed we would be playing for a grand slam after we won another one-off match five months before and didnt bother for the other matches tournament.

MichaelT wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:He hardly had a terrible Lions tour. However, he may have been a little tired after bullying the English pack in the Six Nations, something Cyril seems to have forgot. His golden boys didn't turn up that day, did they?

The English had turned up at the previous four games though - how did Ireland get on in the grand scheme of things?

Ireland were nobbled by Scotland and Wales?

Oh and they lost to both sides in the last Six Nations too.  We'll have to get out of that habit soon.  It's becoming most embarrassing.

MichaelT wrote:

The English had turned up at the previous four games though - how did Ireland get on in the grand scheme of things? You do know its called the Six Nations tournament don't you? Its not the one-off match when we have no chance of winning the tournament because we assumed we would be playing for a grand slam after we won another one-off match five months before and didnt bother for the other matches tournament.

Won it 2 times in the last four years - 4 countries have a zero score in that regard. So not too shabby thanks.

The reality was 5 teams were very even and England got a lucky win in Wales and decided it.
Every other game between those 5 nations were won by the home team

geoff999rugby wrote:

MichaelT wrote:

The English had turned up at the previous four games though - how did Ireland get on in the grand scheme of things? You do know its called the Six Nations tournament don't you? Its not the one-off match when we have no chance of winning the tournament because we assumed we would be playing for a grand slam after we won another one-off match five months before and didnt bother for the other matches tournament.

Won it 2 times in the last four years - 4 countries have a zero score in that regard. So not too shabby thanks.

The reality was 5 teams were very even and England got a lucky win in Wales and decided it.
Every other game between those 5 nations were won by the home team

You werent talking about the last four years, you were talking about one game in March. So get over yourself. 2 out of 4 sounds great, 3 out of 17 sounds average. England have 6, and have won a whole tournaments worth of games more than anyone else. Just in case you want to start bringing other random facts into it.

Englands lucky win still beat Wales by points than Ireland beat England, so what does that make Irelands win? Maybe if you could beat Wales but you can't.

If the five teams were so even how come England had it won before they had even kicked off against Scotland? The real reality is 3 teams were even, 1 team was poor and 1 team was clearly better during the whole tournament, but lost their last game. If they had of won that last game, in 2 years they would have matched Irelands grand total of grand slams ever, now that definitely wouldn't have been too shabby. Thanks.

Jesus, Michael T....some tough deadlines on your desk?

O dear a key board warrior who likes to show how important he is via the anonymity of the internet - just what we need

One game decided last years 6Nations - if statistics are not your strong suit I'll send you some links for courses

Better still just go away troll !!

geoff999rugby wrote:O dear a key board warrior who likes to show how important he is via the anonymity of the internet - just what we need

One game decided last years 6Nations - if statistics are not your strong suit I'll send you some links for courses

Better still just go away troll !!

I agree Geoff. Can't stand these eejits that turn up with silly names and no adressessessess! Not f**king proper order.

And just encase anyone thinks I'm being a hypocrite:

Secret Fly,
Loaf of Bread,
Kitchen,
Ireland.

Write there and I'll reply.

My my, temper temper. I'll leave you to play with your toys then if you fly off the handle so quickly when someone debates with you on an internet message forum. Go back to Bungle and Zippy there Geoffrey.

rapidsnowman wrote:

Bungle and Zippy were characters from ancient times when TVs had aerials that didn't work much unless you thumped the side of the TV with a sledgehammer.

Does that help?

Argentina are woeful at the moment (even worse than SA). Would be a big surprise if we didn’t beat them handily this sat.

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Argentina are woeful at the moment (even worse than SA). Would be a big surprise if we didn’t beat them handily this sat.

Apparently they're cream crackered as well but that doesn't take away from the fact they are our bogey team. I get a bad feeling before every game against Argentina but it does look like this is one we should be winning.

I don't think Argentina are woeful at all. They spanked Italy and put in a decent shift against England in Twickers.

They are also fairly battle hardened from just going through the rugby championship. I think this will be one hell of a tough game.

Their ranking is skewed because they have played England 4 times, NZ twice, Aus twice and SA twice and Italy once this year. That's 8 games from 11 against the top three sides in the world.

Collapse2005 wrote:I don't think Argentina are woeful at all. They spanked Italy and put in a decent shift against England in Twickers.

They are also fairly battle hardened from just going through the rugby championship. I think this will be one hell of a tough game.

Their ranking is skewed because they have played England 4 times, NZ twice, Aus twice and SA twice and Italy once this year. That's 8 games from 11 against the top three sides in the world.

A decent shift?

They were woeful, there was no creativity or patience in attack and the kicking was some of the worst I've seen in test rugby

Yep, I think it's far too early for any Irish fan or players or coaches to be writing off Argentina as a spent force.... (even though I bow to Geen's comments which seem reasonable enough about Argentina's standards this year)  But let's wait until ten minutes after the game before allowing ourselves the luxury.  We always get a kick in the ass when we think we have the edge................ (anyone remember the Fiji game we played a while ago?)

Anyway, I hope we have the edge over them and if we have it, I'd ideally want all players to come to the game with one mind.......... not just to beat them but to really drive and drive and drive as though the clock wasn't going to stop on 80.  And I want to see us ruthless not because I'm still angry about the WC - I couldn't give a damn about that.  

We should try to be as absolutely ruthless as we can be simply to connect ourselves to that style and to make these gaps that might exist in quality be fully reflected in the scorelines.  I've had enough of these 20-23 results and the talk of composure and systems winning the day.
Fine.  Let the systems win but it's manic aggression I want to see in the faces of our players.  It's much too business is business lately.  I want to see rage in the eyes against all sides we face.  More Sexton glowering and f**king and damning from all players...especially those younger boys.  I want more genuine fire.

I thought I'd come across the latest troll before

Didn't know the difference between Herefordshire and Hertfordshire
Also seemed to insist the comparing North East England and Dublin with respect to beer prices was equitable
(Dublin v London and North East v Clifden would be equitable)

Seems to have a bit of a chip on his shoulder about us though

Fly: I am married with a daughter. I carry an Irish passport, some of my relatives are English, I live in Belfast. I am a practising athiest and I am in my early 60's.

Does that confession mean I am no longer have anonymity on the internet

Who the hell are Bungle and Zippy - never heard of them !!