Glasgow and The Disapproving Neighbours 18 At Last! Whose Round is it?

First topic message reminder :

I'll Put A Funny Sub-Title Here

Insert funny image here, probably of a genuine Glaswegian; none of your See-an Canary nonsense here.

Insert an image summing up the pretentiousness of Luvviedom. Grant Gilchrist in a kilt eating shortbread?

Add some statistics; time elapsed, in decades, since Ickle Jonny missed a tackle. Time elapsed, in eons, since someone stayed awake for the whole 80 minutes at the Library.

Make some witty banterish comment to start the ball rolling.

See! How hard was that?

There is a young lad called Baggott who played against Sale in preseason and looked capable, but he's not been seen since.

Edinburgh game

https://youtu.be/YbSNStTlCpU

James Johnson is electric - I can imagine cockerll won't want him to go off to the 7s!

The mystery continues with the Hardie case, with Cockerill refusing to so what's going on

I'm noy going to comment on John Hardie but what I do know is that I will run a strong culture and we will deal with those situations as they come along,” was Cockerill’s only reaction. “My job is to make this a strong robust environment and we will continue to do that.

“I have dealt with situations at previous clubs around players getting themselves into situations and I will deal with it as I see fit. I make it very clear that I want an honest and robust environment and people who want to be part of that.”

Sunday Times Scotland sheds a bit of light...
Hardie hasn't failed a drugs test, but there are "allegations" of cocaine use.

EWT Spoons wrote:Edinburgh game

https://youtu.be/YbSNStTlCpU

Only part of the way through the game but their scrum is holding up well so far, maybe we should bring some front row back for Glasgow

Can anyone remember how long Matt Stevens was banned for? I think it was a good long while. Such a shame, albeit that both Edinburgh and Scotland have options at 7.

2 years, but he failed a drugs test. Hardie hasn't failed a test (rumoured) so it would only be whatever punishment​ the SRU / Edinburgh decide to give him.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Can anyone remember how long Matt Stevens was banned for? I think it was a good long while. Such a shame, albeit that both Edinburgh and Scotland have options at 7.

Trust a lawyer to show up the moment that cocaine is mentioned...
( )

George Carlin wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Can anyone remember how long Matt Stevens was banned for? I think it was a good long while. Such a shame, albeit that both Edinburgh and Scotland have options at 7.

Trust a lawyer to show up the moment that cocaine is mentioned...
( )

There was an interesting discussion on the egg chasers podcast last week about Matt Stevens. The point they were making, which i thought was a valid one was this. People who have a substance abuse problem, have exactly that; a problem.

They need help rather than having the book thrown at them. So we take someone with a problem and add to their issues by taking away their livelihood.

cakeordeath wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Can anyone remember how long Matt Stevens was banned for? I think it was a good long while. Such a shame, albeit that both Edinburgh and Scotland have options at 7.

Trust a lawyer to show up the moment that cocaine is mentioned...
( )

There was an interesting discussion on the egg chasers podcast last week about Matt Stevens. The point they were making, which i thought was a valid one was this. People who have a substance abuse problem, have exactly that;  a problem.

They need help rather than having the book thrown at them. So we take someone with a problem and add to their issues by taking away their livelihood.

Yes and no to that one.

In the same way that not everyone who drinks alcohol is an alcoholic, not everyone who uses cocaine has a substance misuse problem. The main difference between the 2 vices, is that using cocaine remains illegal (whether it should be or not, is another debate completely)

I work in the NHS and come across people with substance misuse issues depressingly frequently and for some people no amount of help will get them to stop. At an early stage in use, before it becomes a physiological addition, sometimes what people need is a shock, which might give them a degree of insight into what they are doing and the potential consequences. Seeing your career and reputation flashing in front of your face, may have that effect. Plenty of other athletes in a range of sports have been caught using cocaine, as a recreational drug goes, it is actually quite suited to athletes. It is quick and easy to use, has an instant effect and in the short term at least, does not have any massive side effects.

I can't remember the exact course of events for the Matt Stevens but I do think he had lots of issues which probably lead to his using cocaine. The two year ban did and still does seem quite excessive. The Brittish Tennis player caught using recently, only got a year, though I think he had form with other misdemeanours. I would hope that in similar circumstances today, he may not have got so long.

Having said that, Matt Stevens largely turned his life around following the ban, came back into the sport as well and was likely quite grateful for the way it panned out.

In short, a little bit of stick and some carrot is probably the way to go with this but the athlete does, as does anyone with a substance misuse issue need to take personal responsibility for what they have done, acknowledge it, then they can potentially move forward.

A good summary biggee - it is going to be an incredibly difficult decision for the SRU to decide what to do with him if he is proven worthy of a punishment. In some ways it would have been easier for them if he had failed a drug test as it would have been out of their hands.

The sad thing is, if guilty, this will most likely spell the end of his Scotland career. The ban will likely be long and he's not going to get a new SRU contract if suspended. Will other teams take him on after? Maybe, as he's an international class 7, but he's tainted property now.

This also leaves Edinburgh in trouble with only one natural 7 in the squad.

If it is an allegation, they can't do much can they? It is assuming guilt.

Hardie may have his name tarnished by this so hope there is some realistic cause of suspicion. He was maybe struggling to get picked for the AI's so there is time for this to play out and for him to earn a place for the 6 nations if it is nothing. If it is something, 6 months may be enough for him to get a course of treatment and get his head in the right place. It is not a performance enhancing drug (I assume). Whether that would be in Scotland is a different argument.

Hugh Blake may finally get an extended opportunity if Hardie is done.

This should not be the end of his career, either within or without Scotland, at least not for an allegation of recreational drug use.

Probably the biggest worry for JH career is that in all honesty, he has not really ever got back to the level he played at during the WC and that is something that may or may not be related to his current situation.

That may be due to a combination of factors. Age and the way he plays must take a toll on a body, he is very similar to Favaro in that respect and seems to get injured just about every game he plays in due to his totally committed style. Watson has definitely eclipsed him in both Edinburgh and Scotland camps now and it is unlikely that Edinburgh will pay top dollar to retain two international class players in the same position. They will have other spending priorities.

He was only given a one year contract last time around and a lot of people felt that he was likely to be moving on then. You would imagine that he is at the stage in his career when cashing in might seem to be a pretty reasonable option.

I hope he does get himself together and gets himself back into the kind of shape when he can play as well as he did back in the last WC.

Given that there's no police involvement you wonder how he was found out - did he come forward himself or was he caught by other players/staff.

It would be a bit of an anti-climax if it wasn't drug related and turns out he'd just lamped someone at training or told Scott Johnson to go feck himself!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Given that there's no police involvement you wonder how he was found out - did he come forward himself or was he caught by other players/staff.

It would be a bit of an anti-climax if it wasn't drug related and turns out he'd just lamped someone at training or told Scott Johnson to go feck himself!

He'd get a promotion if this was the issue.

If he has been taking coca cola then he's exposed himself to some hefty punishment. It's nothing to do with rugby but his contract may well have clauses that say (like many "regular" people's contracts also say) that if you are convicted of a crime then your employment can be terminated. My own contract makes provision for not even needing any police involvement. If I'm found to be using illegal substances I can get the sack, it specifically says that if I use any illegal substances at work then it's instant dismissal!

anyway, it's all speculation until some facts are shared!

With the not failing a test info, is that an official test, or all tests? As I would imagine the club do internal drugs tests, to make sure there are no surprises if they get asked for an official one for their players. So whilst there might not have been a world rugby/pro14 etc ‘official test’, he may have flagged up positive in an in house check.

I assume anyway that’s how it came to light anyway.

I’m also pretty relieved that it’s ‘only’ this, as it could have been so much worse considering what some others players are standing accused of. Clearly it’s still bad but could have been so much worse.

If this is something Edinburgh/SRU get to deal with internally then I doubt he’ll see a major punishment, especially considering the lengths they are going to to identify SQ players. We can’t afford to write off an international class player. He’ll likely get a nominal punishment, banned for the AIs and a few weeks at club level, maybe back in the new year and ordered to go to some rehabilitation programme, possibly a fine as well. That will not only appease people that he’s been suitably punished, it will also pretty much wrap him in cotton wool ready for the 6 nations.

For it to get to this stage is pretty serious in my opinion. If he owned up then he's admitting he needs help, if it was in public place then it damages the image of the team, if it was a team-mate calling him out that tells it's own story.

I think compassion should be the order of the day and the Ryan Wilson / Chip shop incident is analogous. If Wilson can come out a better person, then Hardie might too.

I think historically, the SRU would come down really hard on issues such as these. They have always had a pretty strong Puritanical / Calvinist streak in them - the John Jeffrey / Dean Richards incident in Rose Street comes to mind. Hoping that they don't.

Furra_Linee has swallowed the thesaurus today!

A few more details starting to creep out about Hardiegate.

The Scotsman confirming the cocaine allegation and saying that he was reported to the club by a 'concerned individual' and that no failed drug test was involved. He will definitely miss the AIs whilst this is sorted out though.

This is sounding like something that can be dealt with in-house by the SRU/Edinburgh and it remains to see what they will come up with. It may well have been to his advantage to have been grassed before he did fail a test, which would have enacted some kind of mandatory sanction.

How they proceed may well depend on how he reacts to it. Assuming it is true and he then acknowledges he has an issue would be the best way for him to go forward with it, allowing the club to work with him. As I said before, in the longer term, this may turn out to be a good thing for him.

They also say that Bradburygate will be put to bed this week and that he would not have been fit to play in the games he missed in any case. They kind of did alright without him in Moscow in any case.

Really surprised with this coming out about Hardie. He seems like a real pro and is hardly on the young side. I wonder how long this has been going on for?

If the latest rumours are true - and that there are no criminal charges or failed drugs tests (which suggests this isn't a highly regular thing for him as players get tested frequently) then I think a ban from playing for the rest of the year, on the basis that he gets medical/psychological help for his problem , would be entirely appropriate. He would then be free to return to training from January and try to regain his place in the team.

As has been said earlier, sacking him and would certainly not help the problem as there is a downward spiral from there.

In other news, Dougie Fife and James Johnson have been left out of the first Scotland 7s squad of the season - has Cockers won the argument??

RDW_Scotland wrote:In other news, Dougie Fife and James Johnson have been left out of the first Scotland 7s squad of the season - has Cockers won the argument??

That seems pretty sensible on both sides. It is a warm up tournament for the world sevens, so a chance to try out a few new players and it keeps Edinburgh in serviceable backs whilst the AIs are going on. It won't effect our sevens ranking either if it effects our performance.

Both have done well so far and deserve the chance to continue to show their potential in the 15 a side game

As an aside I'd like to see a 12 Dean 13 Johnson combo for Edinburgh - I think that's a great combination of pace and skill and although neither are massively big they aren't lightweight.

Regarding hardie, this is purely speculation as haven't spoken to anyone but I do wonder if it's a coincidence he is an ex highlander, apparently the drug culture in Dunedin rugby is fairly "strong". As soon I heard he was suspended me and a few mates all predicted cocaine. Pure speculation but my tupence worth

RDW_Scotland wrote:In other news, Dougie Fife and James Johnson have been left out of the first Scotland 7s squad of the season - has Cockers won the argument??

That's annoying - I was looking forward to seeing JJ at the Dubai Sevens in a couple of weeks.

BigGee - excellent post about drug problems - very informative.

George Carlin wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:In other news, Dougie Fife and James Johnson have been left out of the first Scotland 7s squad of the season - has Cockers won the argument??

That's annoying - I was looking forward to seeing JJ at the Dubai Sevens in a couple of weeks.

BigGee - excellent post about drug problems - very informative.

He may still be there - this is just a warm up tournament so the wider squad are getting a chance.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Really surprised with this coming out about Hardie. He seems like a real pro and is hardly on the young side. I wonder how long this has been going on for?

More importantly than that, please can I copyright the only new nickname that seems appropriate for him: John Snow.

#IDontEvenWatchGoT

So is it now time to stop watching the Euro competitions for this year?

Glasgow as good as out and Edinburgh still in the tiddlywinks league?

Better hope for a good Pro 14 performance, as this could be a long year

Bradbury been stripped of Edinburgh captaincy apparently, McKenzie taking over.

Waiting for the whole report to come out but that probably sounds fair enough. It did not seem to be sitting to easily on him in any case, maybe it was just to soon.

Where did you see/hear that BigGee?

Rob Robertson on Twitter - he's the Daily Mail sports editor.

Probably a fair call - hopefully he can concentrate on his own game now as he is still developing as a player.

cheers. Seems sensible.

Not sure on McKenzie as captain as he's not a regular starter, but he's played well of late and I assume there will be on field leaders etc as well

EWT Spoons wrote:cheers.  Seems sensible.

Not sure on McKenzie as captain as he's not a regular starter, but he's played well of late and I assume there will be on field leaders etc as well

Hardie would have been a better choice.

He knows where the white line is...
( )

Too soon?

George Carlin wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:cheers.  Seems sensible.

Not sure on McKenzie as captain as he's not a regular starter, but he's played well of late and I assume there will be on field leaders etc as well

Hardie would have been a better choice.

He knows where the white line is...
( )

Too soon?

i take it you have a long list of these ready to go??

RDW_Scotland wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:cheers.  Seems sensible.

Not sure on McKenzie as captain as he's not a regular starter, but he's played well of late and I assume there will be on field leaders etc as well

Hardie would have been a better choice.

He knows where the white line is...
( )

Too soon?

i take it you have a long list of these ready to go??

*Taps nose*

George Carlin wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:cheers.  Seems sensible.

Not sure on McKenzie as captain as he's not a regular starter, but he's played well of late and I assume there will be on field leaders etc as well

Hardie would have been a better choice.

He knows where the white line is...
( )

Too soon?

i take it you have a long list of these ready to go??

*Taps nose*

and white powder falls out?

The full Bradbury story from the Offside Line:

MAGNUS Bradbury has been stripped of the Edinburgh captaincy by head coach Richard Cockerill, but will be available for selection the weekend after next presuming he has fully recovered from a head injury. Fraser McKenzie has now been appointed captain for the rest of the season.

Bradbury was suspended for the previous two matches by Edinburgh following an incident on a night out in the city centre that saw him sustain that head knock. He will not be involved in the squad for Saturday’s PRO14 match in Treviso against Benetton, but could make his return for the following game against Ospreys provided he is deemed worthy of selection.

That matter is now deemed by Cockerill to be over, but at a press conference yesterday the coach was unable or unwilling to say when the inquiry into John Hardie would be completed. The Scotland openside was suspended by Scottish Rugby and Edinburgh last Friday for alleged cocaine use.

“I’m not allowed to comment on that,” Cockerill said of the Hardie issue. “I have a view on it, but at this point it’s not appropriate that I talk about it, unfortunately. I’d like all the players to be available to play, but that’s not how it is, so we get on with the playing parts and try to leave this distraction aside.”

As the two suspensions were for entirely unrelated matters, Edinburgh were keen to conclude the Bradbury issue in good time. The 22-year-old back-row forward will be welcomed back into the squad by his playing colleagues as well as by the coaching staff.

“I’ve stood Magnus down as captain, because I’m not going to accept that behaviour from my captain away from the field,” Cockerill said. “The players are very aware of what I expect from them away from the field.

“They’re adults, and they have to make the right decisions. They know how to behave. If they choose to behave outside of that, then clearly I have to manage it.

“Magnus is no longer the captain of the team, and that’s his sanction for not being able to be trusted to manage his behaviour away from the field. I take it very seriously and I will continue to. I want guys that want to be part of the environment and contribute.

“I think we all know how to behave – we just need to make the right choices. Magnus won’t be the first or last rugby player that goes out on a Saturday night and does something that he shouldn’t. He understands that. It’s a harsh lesson for him to learn. Hopefully he’ll grow up a little bit and learn from experience.

“Fraser McKenzie will be the club captain for the rest of this season. And if he’s not on the field I will select a captain for that particular day. So Fraser will lead the team as a club captain. He’s got that little bit more maturity, he leads very well, he’s got that little bit of devil about him – if you know him well enough you’ll understand what I mean. And as a club we train hard this week and we go and try and win. As simple as that. We all have to front up to our responsibilities and make sure that we do them better moving forward, myself included.”


Frazer McKenzie in a Kellockesque Club Captain role, hopefully without the role of ruck inspector in the JD!

Reading between the lines it sounds like Cockerill is of the opinion that Hardie should be free to play, which perhaps suggests it isn't a serious offence that he's committed and any punishment will be political / to send the right message.

Lock Fraser McKenzie has been appointed as the club’s captain for the remainder of the season.

The 29-year-old second row has played 86 games in the black and red over two spells with the club, scoring six tries in the process.

On the appointment, Head Coach Richard Cockerill said:

“Fraser has captained the side on a number of occasions already and has shown that he has an ability to lead.

"He is tough and isn’t scared to get in the mix, which is what we need heading forward. I have every confidence that Fraser will be an excellent choice as our club captain”

McKenzie, who began his career with Edinburgh in 2006, was delighted to be announced as the club’s captain and is looking forward to the challenge ahead.

“I would of course like to take over the role in different circumstances,” he said, “but I’m honoured to be chosen to lead the side for the remainder of the season.


“Edinburgh is a club that I had the privilege to begin my career with and to now captain the side 11 years down the line is a great feeling.

"I can’t wait to lead club going forward and I’m going to give the role my very best.”

Strange that the press announcement makes no mention of the fact that he's taking over from Bradbury..

John Beattie tweeted earlier that the RFU drug test their players for recreational drugs and a first offence is kept confidential and dealt with in house.

Rory Lamont replied that in Scotland we prefer public hanging!

That sounds a sensible way to go about it accept we are lead to believe he did not fail a test but was reported. That may be accompanied by pictures or video evidence, threats to go public etc.

SRU may have felt they had no option.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Lock Fraser McKenzie has been appointed as the club’s captain for the remainder of the season.

The 29-year-old second row has played 86 games in the black and red over two spells with the club, scoring six tries in the process.

On the appointment, Head Coach Richard Cockerill said:

“Fraser has captained the side on a number of occasions already and has shown that he has an ability to turn up on time, face the right way and not fall over.

"He is tough and isn’t scared to get in the shower, which is what we need heading forward. I have every confidence that Fraser will be an excellent choice as our club captain”

McKenzie, who began his career with Edinburgh in 2006, was delighted to be announced as the club’s captain and is looking forward to the challenge ahead.

“I would of course like to take over the role in different circumstances,” he said, “but thankfully Magnus is a beer monster with very bad balance so I’m honoured to be chosen to lead the side for the remainder of the season.

“Edinburgh is a club that I had the privilege to begin my career with and to now captain the side 11 years down the line is a great feeling.

"I can’t wait to lead club going forward and I’m going to give the role my very best.

On the removal of loose forward Magnus Bradbury from the role as captain, Head Coach Richard Cockerill said

"He's behaved like a right bell end, hasn't he? I don't respect any man who can't hold his Pimm's Cup. The tw@t didn't even add enough cucumber to his.":

Strange that the press announcement makes no mention of the fact that he's taking over from Bradbury..

You missed out a couple of parts from the release - I have restored these above.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Lock Fraser McKenzie has been appointed as the club’s captain for the remainder of the season.

The 29-year-old second row has played 86 games in the black and red over two spells with the club, scoring six tries in the process.

On the appointment, Head Coach Richard Cockerill said:

“Fraser has captained the side on a number of occasions already and has shown that he has an ability to turn up on time, face the right way and not fall over.

"He is tough and isn’t scared to get in the shower, which is what we need heading forward. I have every confidence that Fraser will be an excellent choice as our club captain”

McKenzie, who began his career with Edinburgh in 2006, was delighted to be announced as the club’s captain and is looking forward to the challenge ahead.

“I would of course like to take over the role in different circumstances,” he said, “but thankfully Magnus is a beer monster with very bad balance so I’m honoured to be chosen to lead the side for the remainder of the season.

“Edinburgh is a club that I had the privilege to begin my career with and to now captain the side 11 years down the line is a great feeling.

"I can’t wait to lead club going forward and I’m going to give the role my very best.

On the removal of loose forward Magnus Bradbury from the role as captain, Head Coach Richard Cockerill said

"He's behaved like a right bell end, hasn't he? I don't respect any man who can't hold his Pimm's Cup. The tw@t didn't even add enough cucumber to his.":

Strange that the press announcement makes no mention of the fact that he's taking over from Bradbury..

You missed out a couple of parts from the release - I have restored these above.

Positive news on the Edinburgh injury front - strangely no mention of Dell or Tovey? Hopefully that's good news on the Tovey front.

Duhan van der Merwe
The South African winger has returned to full training following hip surgery and is available for selection.

Rory Sutherland
The loosehead prop returned to BT Premiership action with Hawick last weekend following groin surgery and is available for selection.


Hamish Watson
The Scottish internationalist has recovered from a shoulder injury and is once again available for selection.


Ross Ford
The 33-year-old hooker has reacted well to treatment on a calf injury and is on target to return to full training by early November.


Duncan Weir
The stand-off is scheduled to return to training by mid-November following rehabilitation on an abdominal injury.


Darcy Graham
The 20-year-old winger has made great progress in his recovery from a knee injury and is on target to return to full training by early November.


Mark Bennett
The 24-year-old is still on target to return to full training by early December following knee surgery.

Sean Kennedy
The 26-year-old scrum-half is scheduled to return to full training by mid-November following ankle surgery.

The key thing there is that Hamish Watson is playable again.

We're all assuming he will start in the AIs but how much game time will he be able to get beforehand?

In reality it will just be the Treviso game this weekend - can't imagine any of the squad for the Samoa will be playing Pro 14 next weekend.

George Carlin wrote:The key thing there is that Hamish Watson is playable again.

We're all assuming he will start in the AIs but how much game time will he be able to get beforehand?

You would imagine he will play this weekend, then sit out the one prior to the Samoa game. Edinburgh will need him in any case, away to Benetton, who are playing well. This game is one they will have to play very well to win and so you imagine will be putting out a full strength team.

The BBC Sport front page has gone with a pic of Bradbury with tongue hanging out looking as glaiket as possible.

George Carlin wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Can anyone remember how long Matt Stevens was banned for? I think it was a good long while. Such a shame, albeit that both Edinburgh and Scotland have options at 7.

Trust a lawyer to show up the moment that cocaine is mentioned...
( )

Ah yes, an allnighters' best friend...allegedly.