Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

[profitius]

First topic message reminder :

Continued from this one. https://www.606v2.com/t63658-irish-provinces-news-gossip-thread-2016-17
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[Sin é]

There will always be something to keep them though, such as the Lions. I'd imagine there are a fair few players who would fancy another go at that (like Henderson, POM, Murray, CJ and anyone who was on the last tour).

[VinceWLB]

The dam will burst unless the Pro 14 can generate more to make up the the financial gap with the AP. The prospect of a WC on the horizon will hold it back but after that a number of senior players that we would rather keep will leave. The Pro 14 has 2/6 years to make a big jump financially

Couldn't disagree more..

I have been pleasantly surprised with how Pro 14 teams have been able to retain their top players so far this season (and very early too..), i wonder if it's the new Pro 14 paying dividends already.

The threat is more with the top 14, and even then it seems to be not as big a threat as a few years ago.

Still a lot of work needed for the Pro 14 but things are looking up, which results in europe seem to be confirming so far.

[eirebilly]

POM is a definite starter, not sure where you get him as a bench option from.
Heaslip will have difficulty getting his starting spot back off Conan at Leinster, in fact I think Conan may even be pushing CJ to start at 8 for Ireland...

He is only starting because Heaslip is injured.

Of the following back row forwards O'Brien, Stander, POM and Heaslip, POM has been a sub the most. That's a fact. When all 4 are fit something has got to give.

The back row in Ireland has a great strength and it is fantastic to see but you would have to be the most blinkered supporter to claim that POM is a bench player. He is by far the best 6 in Ireland and right up there with the best 6's n the world. Just because a player has a few bench caps (whilst returning from injury or at the beginning of his career) this does not make him a bench player only. You also seem to forget the England match where POM was at 6 and CJ at 8, this was the most balanced Ireland looked the entire tournament and surprise surprise, Ireland won.

At the moment, this is how I see things.

6 : POM, CJ can fill that role if POM is injured but POM starts
7 : O'Brien, VdF is in direct competition here
8 : CJ, Conan and Heaslip. For me it is currently CJ but Conan is more than putting his hand up for a start. Would have to see Heaslip come back to fitness and oust Conan before I would even consider Heaslip in the frame. No matter how good he has been in the past.

If, for arguments sake, Heaslip was to come directly back into the Ireland side. I think that you would find that POM would start at 6 and CJ would be on the bench to cover 6 and 8. This does also not mean that CJ is a 'bench player' its about what is best for the balance of the team.

[Collapse2005]

I don't think he is the best 6. I think Stander is the best 6. I don't think POM really is a 6 at all but more of a hybrid. He reminds me of Tom Croft a bit albeit not as fast which is why I think he offers more on the bench. If all 4 are fit I reckon Schmidt thinks the same. Could be wrong.

POM isn't physical enough for a 6 in my opinion.

[eirebilly]

POM is now not a proper 6 and is not physical enough? POM is one Munster and Irelands best lineout operators (check how many steals he gets) and one of Munster and Irelands best break down workers (check out his turnover stats). He is an absolute monster at the breakdown.

CJ was only playing 6 due to POM's injury. AS stated earlier, when POM played at 6 and CJ at 8 (due to Heaslip's injury) against England in this years 6N, the back row balance was far better than when CJ played at 6 with Heaslip at 8. Two arguments could be made for this one being that POM is a better 6 than CJ (my opinion) or that CJ is a better 8 than Heaslip.

Why do you also only refer to 4 (POM, SOB, CJ and Heaslip), do you not rate Conan or VdF?

[marty2086]

The dam will burst unless the Pro 14 can generate more to make up the the financial gap with the AP. The prospect of a WC on the horizon will hold it back but after that a number of senior players that we would rather keep will leave. The Pro 14 has 2/6 years to make a big jump financially

Couldn't disagree more..

I have been pleasantly surprised with how Pro 14 teams have been able to retain their top players so far this season (and very early too..), i wonder if it's the new Pro 14 paying dividends already.

The threat is more with the top 14, and even then it seems to be not as big a threat as a few years ago.

Still a lot of work needed for the Pro 14 but things are looking up, which results in europe seem to be confirming so far.

The Welsh while losing Webb and Biggar have North, Moriarty and Hibbard coming in

Hopefully Glasgow can maybe get a marquee signing in to replace Russell too

[marty2086]

POM is a definite starter, not sure where you get him as a bench option from.
Heaslip will have difficulty getting his starting spot back off Conan at Leinster, in fact I think Conan may even be pushing CJ to start at 8 for Ireland...

He is only starting because Heaslip is injured.

Of the following back row forwards O'Brien, Stander, POM and Heaslip, POM has been a sub the most. That's a fact. When all 4 are fit something has got to give.

The back row in Ireland has a great strength and it is fantastic to see but you would have to be the most blinkered supporter to claim that POM is a bench player. He is by far the best 6 in Ireland and right up there with the best 6's n the world. Just because a player has a few bench caps (whilst returning from injury or at the beginning of his career) this does not make him a bench player only. You also seem to forget the England match where POM was at 6 and CJ at 8, this was the most balanced Ireland looked the entire tournament and surprise surprise, Ireland won.

At the moment, this is how I see things.

6 : POM, CJ can fill that role if POM is injured but POM starts
7 : O'Brien, VdF is in direct competition here
8 : CJ, Conan and Heaslip. For me it is currently CJ but Conan is more than putting his hand up for a start. Would have to see Heaslip come back to fitness and oust Conan before I would even consider Heaslip in the frame. No matter how good he has been in the past.

If, for arguments sake, Heaslip was to come directly back into the Ireland side. I think that you would find that POM would start at 6 and CJ would be on the bench to cover 6 and 8. This does also not mean that CJ is a 'bench player' its about what is best for the balance of the team.

billy don't go talking sense to George, it confuses him

By his logic Henderson is a bench player since he has 34 caps and 18 of those are from the bench, nothing to do with senior players like POM, POC, DOC, Ryan, Toner, Ferris etc being ahead of him from when he came into the squad

POM had the same problem at times as 3 of his first four caps he had Ferris ahead of him and then he went to NZ in 2012 where the backrow was rotated and he played 6 and 8 in two of the games and started the other on the bench

[Collapse2005]

POM is now not a proper 6 and is not physical enough?  POM is one Munster and Irelands best lineout operators (check how many steals he gets) and one of Munster and Irelands best break down workers (check out his turnover stats). He is an absolute monster at the breakdown.

CJ was only playing 6 due to POM's injury. AS stated earlier, when POM played at 6 and CJ at 8 (due to Heaslip's injury) against England in this years 6N, the back row balance was far better than when CJ played at 6 with Heaslip at 8. Two arguments could be made for this one being that POM is a better 6 than CJ (my opinion) or that CJ is a better 8 than Heaslip.

Why do you also only refer to 4 (POM, SOB, CJ and Heaslip), do you not rate Conan or VdF?

Yeah I agree he is one of our best lineout operators. Not really something you usually get from a 6, nor is popping up on the wing etc. which is why I compared him to Croft.

He is good at the breakdown but I'm not sure he is great. Would prefer someone in the mould of Ferris or Stander at 6 big and destructive.

[Collapse2005]

billy don't go talking sense to George, it confuses him

By his logic Henderson is a bench player since he has 34 caps and 18 of those are from the bench, nothing to do with senior players like POM, POC, DOC, Ryan, Toner, Ferris etc being ahead of him from when he came into the squad

POM had the same problem at times as 3 of his first four caps he had Ferris ahead of him and then he went to NZ in 2012 where the backrow was rotated and he played 6 and 8 in two of the games and started the other on the bench

Well Henderson certainly was a bench player but he is top of the order now and deservedly so. However, his lineout jumping probably still needs to improve. When he and POM play together they probably complement each others weaknesses which could be a good argument for picking them both.

[LeinsterFan4life]

There will always be something to keep them though, such as the Lions. I'd imagine there are a fair few players who would fancy another go at that (like Henderson, POM, Murray, CJ and anyone who was on the last tour).

Another thing about the salaries the likes of POM and Stander are reportedly on is the match bonuses these guys receive and major sponsorship deals they are involved in that arent talked about. These guys aren't as far off the top wages that we think they are, in fact they are some of the best paid players in world rugby outside of the likes of your Dan Carters.

To be honest the English would be the one fearing us if we didn't have a cap on the amount of NIQ players allowed in each team.

[Pot Hale]

There will always be something to keep them though, such as the Lions. I'd imagine there are a fair few players who would fancy another go at that (like Henderson, POM, Murray, CJ and anyone who was on the last tour).

Another thing about the salaries the likes of POM and Stander are reportedly on is the match bonuses these guys receive and major sponsorship deals they are involved in that arent talked about. These guys aren't as far off the top wages that we think they are, in fact they are some of the best paid players in world rugby outside of the likes of your Dan Carters.

To be honest the English would be the one fearing us if we didn't have a cap on the amount of NIQ players allowed in each team.

Are you saying that players in other leagues don’t have match bonuses or sponsorship deals?

[LeinsterFan4life]

There will always be something to keep them though, such as the Lions. I'd imagine there are a fair few players who would fancy another go at that (like Henderson, POM, Murray, CJ and anyone who was on the last tour).

Another thing about the salaries the likes of POM and Stander are reportedly on is the match bonuses these guys receive and major sponsorship deals they are involved in that arent talked about. These guys aren't as far off the top wages that we think they are, in fact they are some of the best paid players in world rugby outside of the likes of your Dan Carters.

To be honest the English would be the one fearing us if we didn't have a cap on the amount of NIQ players allowed in each team.

Are you saying that players in other leagues don’t have match bonuses or sponsorship deals?

They do but if an Irish player leaves then he won't get the match bonuses for Ireland and may lose a sponsorship deal due to not being involved in international rugby. There are clearly a lot of variables involved in the contracts hence why most of them are staying here in Ireland.

[eirebilly]

Really looking forward to todays match. Munster have a very strong team whereas Leinster have sent out a slightly weaker team than they could have.

Many feel this is in the bag for Munster but not so sure myself. Still think it will be close but with Munster winning due to home ground advantage.

[Engine#4]

Leinster starting 15 is still pretty strong
Not much to come off the bench in the backs but if these Leinster backrowers want to play 6 nations then they are up against the lads they need to oust.

[eirebilly]

Good decision from Owens there, would have been harsh to rule that try out for obstruction on the halfway line. Munster look very poor and Leinster look hungry. Not good signs for Munster.

[eirebilly]

Munster are pure garbage this game. Conway off for 10 for cynical play resulting in a penalty try for Leinster.

Leinster are not even playing that well and they are 15 points to the good after 20mins at Thomond Park

[eirebilly]

Leinster are simply a class above. Already out of touch I feel, had Munster got a try at the end then I would feel that Munster may be able to come back (due to a stronger bench) but they are simply done. No imagination, no direction and lacking physicality.

Conan is again having a great game which is why I feel that Heaslip has a hell of a lot of work to do in order to regain the Leinster 8 jersey let alone the Irish 8 jersey.

[LeinsterFan4life]

Munster are pure garbage this game. Conway off for 10 for cynical play resulting in a penalty try for Leinster.

Leinster are not even playing that well and they are 15 points to the good after 20mins at Thomond Park

Bit unfair to Leinster as they have been absolutely ruthless with ball in hand. James Ryan really is something special and Leavy, Byrne and Lowe have been outstanding. So much for sending a weakened team!

[eirebilly]

Munster are pure garbage this game. Conway off for 10 for cynical play resulting in a penalty try for Leinster.

Leinster are not even playing that well and they are 15 points to the good after 20mins at Thomond Park

Bit unfair to Leinster as they have been absolutely ruthless with ball in hand. James Ryan really is something special and Leavy, Byrne and Lowe have been outstanding. So much for sending a weakened team!

Leinster have offloaded brilliantly, I will give them that but they really have not had to do that much in fairness. Munster have been pure garbage. There just seems to be no structure to them and Leinster have had to do little to exploit that. The Leinster 2nd try, however, was absolutely outstanding.

[Collapse2005]

O'Mahony very very average today. Where is his world famous leadership?

Pathetic in the lineout too.

[eirebilly]

Poor from Owens today. Kilkoyne took Lowe out late and should have been a penalty to Leinster, then Toner with a no arms tackle that could have resulted in a yellow card and now Daly with a deliberate knockdown that should have been a yellow card. Neither really having any affect on the game but it is not very good from Owens.

Keatley in now but it is still way too much to do.

[LeinsterFan4life]

Wow what an advert for the Pro14. Munster are back!

[eirebilly]

Wow what an advert for the Pro14. Munster are back!

Amen to that brother.

Not sure Owens got that right again, looks like Conway hit Lowe in the air...

Dislike the Munster fans booing now, really hate booing.

[eirebilly]

2 very good number 8's on display here but even as a Munster fan, I would give Conan the edge here. Another immense performance from him and he simply has to be a starter for Ireland in the 6N on this form.

[eirebilly]

What a superb try, stunning. How quick is that lads feet.

[Maine man]

The main reason I watched this game was to see how good the young Leinster full back is and I must admit I haven't been disappointed. And leavy as well. How impressive has he been.

[Collapse2005]

Leavy schooled Pom all day long.

[eirebilly]

Leavy schooled Pom all day long.

We get it, you do not like POM. Can you now just enjoy the game?

[Collapse2005]

Keatley and Conway Munsters best players today.

"World class" Pom completely dominated by Leavy.

[eirebilly]

Very disappointed with the Munster first half, all the damage was done then and it was always a massive up hill climb for Munster.

Second half was excellent rugby. For me the turning point was when Leavy won a turnover with all the momentum with Munster, proper game changing turnover that.

Well done to Leinster and their decent supporters, the best team won on the day by far. Make a night of it

[Maine man]

Question for Eirebilly, what's happened with the NZ fly half? I take it he's injured?

[eirebilly]

Question for Eirebilly, what's happened with the NZ fly half? I take it he's injured?

Tyler Bleyendaal still has a slight niggle to his neck, may be back soon but in fairness to Keatley, he has been in some good form so Tyler is not guaranteed to get a start ahead of him.

[Geen sport voor watjes]

Too many turkeys for Munster today and not enough spiced beef. Great to see James Cronin back though.

[Maine man]

Thanks Eirebilly. How has Hanrahan been for you guys? Always rated him and had far fetched hopes that he would have signed for Ulster when returning from Northampton

[eirebilly]

JJ has been solid for Munster but he is behind Keatley and Bleyendaal for the 10 jersey. I think it would be a good move for him to go to Ulster, he may get more game time at 10 than at Munster. Cant help but feel it was a massive mistake to leave Munster for Northampton, put his career back by a couple of years.

[LeinsterFan4life]

Ross Byrne may have played himself into the bench for Ireland. He seems to have turned a corner with his place kicking, some beautiful striking on display.
I also thought Wotton was very good. I was surprised he was left out of the team initially.

[Pot Hale]

James Lowe found out the difference between ITM Cup and PRO Rugby today.  Very poor positional play in defence.

[Redman]

James Lowe found out the difference between ITM Cup and PRO Rugby today.  Very poor positional play in defence.  

Dreadful stuff. Munster took their chances well but he was hopelessly out of position for 2 of their tries. Breaking the defensive line far too often and getting caught in No-Man's Land. Needed to trust his inside defender.

Did well in the loose though, some good counter rucking.

[Pete330v2]

What a game, an advert for the Pro14 but more than that an advert for Irish Rugby. Scintillating is a word that comes to mind.

[Collapse2005]

Munster missed Colete a lot. They got dominated at the breakdown without him. He has been their best backrow forward for the last few games.

[the-goon]

Lamour to start against France in Feb. I'm joking, but leo will have a hard time dropping him for Kearney in Europe after that performance.

[profitius]

O'Mahony very very average today. Where is his world famous leadership?

Pathetic in the lineout too.

Leavy schooled Pom all day long.

Keatley and Conway Munsters best players today.

"World class" Pom completely dominated by Leavy.

Munster missed Colete a lot. They got dominated at the breakdown without him. He has been their best backrow forward for the last few games.

  Someones got it bad for POM.  

[Geen sport voor watjes]

It’s guns. He thinks the Kearney’s are international level rugby players ffs.

[the-goon]

Rob looked international class last month....

[eirebilly]

It’s guns. He thinks the Kearney’s are international level rugby players ffs.

In fairness to Rob Kearney, he is one of Irelands best ever 15's and he certainly played well in the AI's. I was one who did not want him selected due to no game time at Leinster but he did put in a very good performance and rarely lets Ireland down. Dave Kearney, well he never has been or never will be international quality in my mind.

Will never understand Guns addiction and dislike of POM though, seems a little weird.

Who would you have at 8 for Ireland right now, Conan or Stander? Personally I feel Conan is the form player and as good as CJ is, would have him ahead of CJ.

[Geen sport voor watjes]

Muldoon is the form 8. But nobody looks at him cos he is too old. The best compliment I can give him is that he is very like Anthony Foley in how he plays the game.

[RDW]

Just watched the Munster v Leinster highlights - that Larmour fella is some player! What's his story? Could he be Ireland's solution for an attacking fullback?

[SecretFly]

Just watched the Munster v Leinster highlights - that Larmour fella is some player! What's his story? Could he be Ireland's solution for an attacking fullback?

His story has yet to be written. He certainly has 'promise' and he certainly has a bit of the factor about him that seems to suggest Ireland might have found a BOD Mark II. But then again, it's not so easy to track his kind of 'natural' talent from a side that has obviously always flourished at and promoted a fast and furious heads-up kind of rugby (Leinster) to a side that seems to have less opportunity for (or tolerance of) that kind of instinctive risk taking gameplay.... ie, Ireland International.

In short, what Larmour seems to be capable of in a Leinster shirt might be suppressed to an extent by team directions churned out at International level. Ireland have players that can cut open and chase and offload and all of that lovely stuff... Larmour wouldn't be the only one.... but it's the suppression of that version of rugby at International level that seems to be the continuing issue. Beauty compromised for more consistency at winning - and who is to say Joe Schmidt is wrong either? He has had us at third a few times now in the World Rankings.

[SecretFly]

James Lowe found out the difference between ITM Cup and PRO Rugby today.  Very poor positional play in defence.  

I was thinking the very same thing, Pot. He looked like he had a lot to learn about the more pragmatic NH version of rugby where defending is the meat and bones and attack is just the sauce on top.

[Collapse2005]

Larmour was excellent for Ireland school boys and for St Andrews in schools rugby. He has been on the radar for some time now due to his under age performances. He is also a very good hockey player.

He has already spent time in Ireland camps having been personally invited by Schmidt.

There are some really good young backs coming through, Sweetnam, Larmour, Carbery and Stockdale are three of the most exciting.

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