Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

[profitius]

First topic message reminder :

Continued from this one. https://www.606v2.com/t63658-irish-provinces-news-gossip-thread-2016-17
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[rodders]

What I actually came to post - impressive witch hunt of Gerhard Grobler going on in the Irish media at the moment.

Was going to post this yesterday Sin. It is embarrassing at this stage, you'd think everyone else was whiter than white and every Irish player is clean.

Anyone who would even suggest this is either naive beyond belief or a liar. You only have to look at the physiques and performances of some of the players to know that some of it is too good to be true.

The guy served his ban so just let it go.

[marty2086]

What I actually came to post - impressive witch hunt of Gerhard Grobler going on in the Irish media at the moment.

Was going to post this yesterday Sin. It is embarrassing at this stage, you'd think everyone else was whiter than white and every Irish player is clean.

Anyone who would even suggest this is either naive beyond belief or a liar. You only have to look at the physiques and performances of some of the players to know that some of it is too good to be true.

The guy served his ban so just let it go.

Sorry but you're off the mark here, from what I've read the criticism has mostly been of Munster and the IRFU especially the latter when they claim to have a zero tolerance

To claim performances and physiques are too good to be true is bordering on libellous

[SecretFly]

What I actually came to post - impressive witch hunt of Gerhard Grobler going on in the Irish media at the moment.

Was going to post this yesterday Sin. It is embarrassing at this stage, you'd think everyone else was whiter than white and every Irish player is clean.

Anyone who would even suggest this is either naive beyond belief or a liar. You only have to look at the physiques and performances of some of the players to know that some of it is too good to be true.

The guy served his ban so just let it go.

Sorry but you're off the mark here, from what I've read the criticism has mostly been of Munster and the IRFU especially the latter when they claim to have a zero tolerance

To claim performances and physiques are too good to be true is bordering on libellous

But it's not close to being libellous.  Not close.  And anyway, why can't people that want a clean sport support people who say that they believe the sport ISN'T clean right now.  That's their right to think it and say it.  And so often when these topics rise there is always the tone of 'keep your mouths shut and stop accusing the sport'.  The same thing happened around Armstrong.  The greater media and fans laid into the two, three or four brave people who stood up and were determined to tell the truth, even if it destroyed the sport in Europe.
What rodders says isn't close to being libellous, marty, and you shouldn't be suggesting that it is.  That closes debate.

[marty2086]

What I actually came to post - impressive witch hunt of Gerhard Grobler going on in the Irish media at the moment.

Was going to post this yesterday Sin. It is embarrassing at this stage, you'd think everyone else was whiter than white and every Irish player is clean.

Anyone who would even suggest this is either naive beyond belief or a liar. You only have to look at the physiques and performances of some of the players to know that some of it is too good to be true.

The guy served his ban so just let it go.

Sorry but you're off the mark here, from what I've read the criticism has mostly been of Munster and the IRFU especially the latter when they claim to have a zero tolerance

To claim performances and physiques are too good to be true is bordering on libellous

But it's not close to being libellous.  Not close.  And anyway, why can't people that want a clean sport support people who say that they believe the sport ISN'T clean right now.  That's their right to think it and say it.  And so often when these topics rise there is always the tone of 'keep your mouths shut and stop accusing the sport'.  The same thing happened around Armstrong.  The greater media and fans laid into the two, three or four brave people who stood up and were determined to tell the truth, even if it destroyed the sport in Europe.
What rodders says isn't close to being libellous, marty, and you shouldn't be suggesting that it is.  That closes debate.

When someone stops short of naming names then yes it is bordering on being libellous, just saying because x had a great game or y has a great physique there's something dodgy there that's out of line. The attention to detail paid to diet and workouts now is scientific in its approach and a big part of some of the changes. Saying physiques and performances are a certain way and an indicator of doping is just plain wrong

[rodders]

What I actually came to post - impressive witch hunt of Gerhard Grobler going on in the Irish media at the moment.

Was going to post this yesterday Sin. It is embarrassing at this stage, you'd think everyone else was whiter than white and every Irish player is clean.

Anyone who would even suggest this is either naive beyond belief or a liar. You only have to look at the physiques and performances of some of the players to know that some of it is too good to be true.

The guy served his ban so just let it go.

Sorry but you're off the mark here, from what I've read the criticism has mostly been of Munster and the IRFU especially the latter when they claim to have a zero tolerance

To claim performances and physiques are too good to be true is bordering on libellous

But it's not close to being libellous.  Not close.  And anyway, why can't people that want a clean sport support people who say that they believe the sport ISN'T clean right now.  That's their right to think it and say it.  And so often when these topics rise there is always the tone of 'keep your mouths shut and stop accusing the sport'.  The same thing happened around Armstrong.  The greater media and fans laid into the two, three or four brave people who stood up and were determined to tell the truth, even if it destroyed the sport in Europe.
What rodders says isn't close to being libellous, marty, and you shouldn't be suggesting that it is.  That closes debate.

When someone stops short of naming names then yes it is bordering on being libellous, just saying because x had a great game or y has a great physique there's something dodgy there that's out of line. The attention to detail paid to diet and workouts now is scientific in its approach and a big part of some of the changes. Saying physiques and performances are a certain way and an indicator of doping is just plain wrong  

I can name names Marty but that would be libel.

What I will do is express my opinion that a very big percentages of rugby players are using PEDs.

I do believe Ireland is probably one of the cleanest tier 1 nations but certainly not whiter than white, so to claim so and scapegoat this guy will make us look pretty foolish down the line.

[SecretFly]

When someone stops short of naming names then yes it is bordering on being libellous, just saying because x had a great game or y has a great physique there's something dodgy there that's out of line. The attention to detail paid to diet and workouts now is scientific in its approach and a big part of some of the changes. Saying physiques and performances are a certain way and an indicator of doping is just plain wrong  

No it's not. It's either libellous or not. Naming names, or naming teams, or naming coaches, or naming medics that service teams, or insinuating a team and a player position.... that's bordering on Libellous or can be outright libellous.... not an general overview that the sport is not clean or that a person doesn't believe the physiques of certain players are all done on diet and weights.

Now, it's the right of people to counter that belief but this cloud of 'don't be making accusations.... not good for the sport' is unhealthy and oppressive and keeps the topic off the press pages and in the taboo corner. I personally couldn't give a damn about sport anywhere if there are players helping their teams get results by cheating. I'd never pretend I have no concerns just to keep the 'positive image' of rugby going.

[marty2086]

What I actually came to post - impressive witch hunt of Gerhard Grobler going on in the Irish media at the moment.

Was going to post this yesterday Sin. It is embarrassing at this stage, you'd think everyone else was whiter than white and every Irish player is clean.

Anyone who would even suggest this is either naive beyond belief or a liar. You only have to look at the physiques and performances of some of the players to know that some of it is too good to be true.

The guy served his ban so just let it go.

Sorry but you're off the mark here, from what I've read the criticism has mostly been of Munster and the IRFU especially the latter when they claim to have a zero tolerance

To claim performances and physiques are too good to be true is bordering on libellous

But it's not close to being libellous.  Not close.  And anyway, why can't people that want a clean sport support people who say that they believe the sport ISN'T clean right now.  That's their right to think it and say it.  And so often when these topics rise there is always the tone of 'keep your mouths shut and stop accusing the sport'.  The same thing happened around Armstrong.  The greater media and fans laid into the two, three or four brave people who stood up and were determined to tell the truth, even if it destroyed the sport in Europe.
What rodders says isn't close to being libellous, marty, and you shouldn't be suggesting that it is.  That closes debate.

When someone stops short of naming names then yes it is bordering on being libellous, just saying because x had a great game or y has a great physique there's something dodgy there that's out of line. The attention to detail paid to diet and workouts now is scientific in its approach and a big part of some of the changes. Saying physiques and performances are a certain way and an indicator of doping is just plain wrong  

I can name names Marty but that would be libel.

What I will do is express my opinion that a very big percentages of rugby players are using PEDs.

I do believe Ireland is probably one of the cleanest tier 1 nations but certainly not whiter than white, so to claim so and scapegoat this guy will make us look pretty foolish down the line.  

Irish rugby has welcomed him, the media not so much. Some of those attacking his signing are some of the loudest voices about doping in rugby so they are well entitled to use him as an example of the problem

Also, the biggest issue many have is that the claim of zero tolerance is mere lip service when you allow someone to play within your union who has been banned and the message it sends to those who are tempted by the idea

[Collapse2005]

What I actually came to post - impressive witch hunt of Gerhard Grobler going on in the Irish media at the moment.

Was going to post this yesterday Sin. It is embarrassing at this stage, you'd think everyone else was whiter than white and every Irish player is clean.

Anyone who would even suggest this is either naive beyond belief or a liar. You only have to look at the physiques and performances of some of the players to know that some of it is too good to be true.

The guy served his ban so just let it go.

I have mixed views on it. Not in favour of just throwing people on the scrap heap to rot however, steroids can give permanent gains so it isn't fair to other players who have been clean their whole lives.

Overall I reckon it wasn't worth the hassle for Munster nor the IRFU to sign this guy so shouldn't have bothered. The logic they have given though is reasonable.

[rodders]

I have mixed views on it. Not in favour of just throwing people on the scrap heap to rot however, steroids can give permanent gains so it isn't fair to other players who have been clean their whole lives.

I don't necessarily disagree I just believe a lot less players fall into the latter category than the official stats suggest.

We know from other sports how inefficient drug tests are, they're no more than a box ticking exercise.

From what I see with this guy is that he was caught and didn't try and come up with an excuse - medical condition, tainted supplement etc.

[thebandwagonsociety]

What I actually came to post - impressive witch hunt of Gerhard Grobler going on in the Irish media at the moment.

Was going to post this yesterday Sin. It is embarrassing at this stage, you'd think everyone else was whiter than white and every Irish player is clean.

Anyone who would even suggest this is either naive beyond belief or a liar. You only have to look at the physiques and performances of some of the players to know that some of it is too good to be true.

The guy served his ban so just let it go.

Sorry but you're off the mark here, from what I've read the criticism has mostly been of Munster and the IRFU especially the latter when they claim to have a zero tolerance

To claim performances and physiques are too good to be true is bordering on libellous

The sense I get from the press though is that they infer that having Grobler in the squad somehow means that Munster are okay with drug taking in their squad.  That's a leap I just don't see.  That somehow him being in the squad will make kids run out the door and start taking pills.  It's bordering on hysteria.  I'd say he was caught, was punished to the letter of the law, served his ban and is available to be picked up by any club. In fact Munster aren't even the first club to pick him up.  The self-righteousness of some of the OTB and 'legends of the game' has become staggering.  If they really cared so much for the jersey they would be policing the recruitment policy for years gone by and would have been causing a rucous when the player was signed as opposed to when some journo was looking to fill some airtime/column inches in the lull in early january six months later.  He's in the munster set up now, my questions would be has he been tested, are they keeping an eye his intakes.  Have his results so far been clear.  The IRFU can still have a zero tolerance on drugs in their set up -- get a positive results and you're gone, end of story.  That statement is still valid with Grobler signing unless (i) he was still taking when he signed or (ii) has recommenced taking since signing.  If either of those two things are the case then OTB are fine in their righteous indignation but they've broken no story containing either of those two silver bullets for their argument.


The provinces have a history of taking in other teams/countries disgraces, bad apples, problems, reforming them through the provincial set ups and turning them into good players once again.  There have been plenty of personal issues, character issues along the way.  TBH I've always liked how we've handled that in the provinces.

[SecretFly]

The provinces have a history of taking in other teams/countries disgraces, bad apples, problems, reforming them through the provincial set ups and turning them into good players once again.  There have been plenty of personal issues, character issues along the way.  TBH I've always liked how we've handled that in the provinces.

I know. Look at the second life we gave to that French lad, Sexton. Amazing transformation.

[Collapse2005]

The sense I get from the press though is that they infer that having Grobler in the squad somehow means that Munster are okay with drug taking in their squad.  That's a leap I just don't see.  That somehow him being in the squad will make kids run out the door and start taking pills.  It's bordering on hysteria.  I'd say he was caught, was punished to the letter of the law, served his ban and is available to be picked up by any club. In fact Munster aren't even the first club to pick him up.  The self-righteousness of some of the OTB and 'legends of the game' has become staggering.  If they really cared so much for the jersey they would be policing the recruitment policy for years gone by and would have been causing a rucous when the player was signed as opposed to when some journo was looking to fill some airtime/column inches in the lull in early january six months later.  He's in the munster set up now, my questions would be has he been tested, are they keeping an eye his intakes.  Have his results so far been clear.  The IRFU can still have a zero tolerance on drugs in their set up -- get a positive results and you're gone, end of story.  That statement is still valid with Grobler signing unless (i) he was still taking when he signed or (ii) has recommenced taking since signing.  If either of those two things are the case then OTB are fine in their righteous indignation but they've broken no story containing either of those two silver bullets for their argument.


The provinces have a history of taking in other teams/countries disgraces, bad apples, problems, reforming them through the provincial set ups and turning them into good players once again.  There have been plenty of personal issues, character issues along the way.  TBH I've always liked how we've handled that in the provinces.

Radio people have all become overly PC in Ireland because they fear losing their jobs over mob rule in particular from pressure from the sort of social justice warriors that were influential in George Hook losing his job and such nonsense. Its as if they publically have no choice but to distance themselves from drug cheats in case they are accused as being sympathisers because these days if you have an opinion that is contrary to popular opinion or even marginally against the grain you get labelled an apologist. Its quite worrying.

It has become a real barrier to sensible discussion.

I have to agree that the reaction of the media can often also be way over the top sometimes because they are looking for a story.

[wolfball]

What I actually came to post - impressive witch hunt of Gerhard Grobler going on in the Irish media at the moment.

Was going to post this yesterday Sin. It is embarrassing at this stage, you'd think everyone else was whiter than white and every Irish player is clean.

Anyone who would even suggest this is either naive beyond belief or a liar. You only have to look at the physiques and performances of some of the players to know that some of it is too good to be true.

The guy served his ban so just let it go.

Sorry but you're off the mark here, from what I've read the criticism has mostly been of Munster and the IRFU especially the latter when they claim to have a zero tolerance

To claim performances and physiques are too good to be true is bordering on libellous

But it's not close to being libellous.  Not close.  And anyway, why can't people that want a clean sport support people who say that they believe the sport ISN'T clean right now.  That's their right to think it and say it.  And so often when these topics rise there is always the tone of 'keep your mouths shut and stop accusing the sport'.  The same thing happened around Armstrong.  The greater media and fans laid into the two, three or four brave people who stood up and were determined to tell the truth, even if it destroyed the sport in Europe.
What rodders says isn't close to being libellous, marty, and you shouldn't be suggesting that it is.  That closes debate.

When someone stops short of naming names then yes it is bordering on being libellous, just saying because x had a great game or y has a great physique there's something dodgy there that's out of line. The attention to detail paid to diet and workouts now is scientific in its approach and a big part of some of the changes. Saying physiques and performances are a certain way and an indicator of doping is just plain wrong  

Something is only libelous if its false...

Anyways, I know I am an outlier on this, but I have zero problem with drug use in sports. The work pro athletes put in whether juicing or not is phenomenal and its their bodies, their decision. Add that the line between ok steroid use (read a stat once that the majority of pro athletes have asthma... I wonder why) and completely banned substances is completely arbitrary from a chemical compound POV, and I think the whole moral outrage thing is absurd. Even more absurd where the "dark arts" (otherwise known as cheating) is looked on approvingly. But again, I know that's an outlier opinion

[Pete330v2]

One man's "everyone should get a second chance" is another man's "We're OK with drugs".

Story of my life

[wolfball]

The sense I get from the press though is that they infer that having Grobler in the squad somehow means that Munster are okay with drug taking in their squad.  That's a leap I just don't see.  That somehow him being in the squad will make kids run out the door and start taking pills.  It's bordering on hysteria.  I'd say he was caught, was punished to the letter of the law, served his ban and is available to be picked up by any club. In fact Munster aren't even the first club to pick him up.  The self-righteousness of some of the OTB and 'legends of the game' has become staggering.  If they really cared so much for the jersey they would be policing the recruitment policy for years gone by and would have been causing a rucous when the player was signed as opposed to when some journo was looking to fill some airtime/column inches in the lull in early january six months later.  He's in the munster set up now, my questions would be has he been tested, are they keeping an eye his intakes.  Have his results so far been clear.  The IRFU can still have a zero tolerance on drugs in their set up -- get a positive results and you're gone, end of story.  That statement is still valid with Grobler signing unless (i) he was still taking when he signed or (ii) has recommenced taking since signing.  If either of those two things are the case then OTB are fine in their righteous indignation but they've broken no story containing either of those two silver bullets for their argument.


The provinces have a history of taking in other teams/countries disgraces, bad apples, problems, reforming them through the provincial set ups and turning them into good players once again.  There have been plenty of personal issues, character issues along the way.  TBH I've always liked how we've handled that in the provinces.

Radio people have all become overly PC in Ireland because they fear losing their jobs over mob rule in particular from pressure from the sort of social justice warriors that were influential in George Hook losing his job and such nonsense. Its as if they publically have no choice but to distance themselves from drug cheats in case they are accused as being sympathisers because these days if you have an opinion that is contrary to popular opinion or even marginally against the grain you get labelled an apologist. Its quite worrying.

I have to agree that the reaction of the media can often also be way over the top sometimes because they are looking for a story.

Something something PC, something something SJW, something something mob rule....

Sorry, where exactly are you being denied the right to express your opinion? just because someone has a minority opinion (like mine above) does not mean you have a right to no push back or even loud disagreement from the "mob".

[Collapse2005]

I'm not sure I said that, my point is I feel radio presenters are being overly cautious in the opinions they express for fear of losing their jobs. Its as if you didn't read what I said at all.

[wolfball]

I'm not sure I said that my point is I feel radio presenters are being overly cautious in the opinions they express. Its as if you didn't read what I said at all.

Non-rte radio presenters in Ireland have never been cautious in their opinions. They may have opinions you (and I) disagree with, but everytime I am back home, the level of contrary opinion and debate on Irish radio is great. I nearly think its the opposite of what you state. Ger from On the ball got passionate on the whole drugs in rugby as a personal thing based on a conversation he had with a former Munster player who was livid at the idea of any rugby player taking drugs. He drove what had been old news into a new story. Not exactly cautious, and if you watch him on youtube talking about it with Quinlon yesterday, it seems like completely genuine passion. I disagree with his opinion, but see nothing that is "cautious" or driven by mob SJW/PC rule.

George Hook was fired/suspended by a private company (Newstalk) after advertisers started pulling their ads. I also see nothing wrong with private companies working in their best interest.

[Collapse2005]

I find media opinion in Ireland generally quite homogenous and bland compared to other countries. Newstalk buck the trend alright at times.

Hook should never have been suspended for having an opinion. Advertisers pull their ads because of pressure from SJWs and mobs so yes public opinion was instrumental in his suspension whether you wish to acknowledge that or not. Its a worrying trend.

[SecretFly]

Dropping Hook was proof that only standardised opinions and standardised counter-opinions are allowed in this lovely Ireland of Ireland.

Yep, censorship. And growing. Mind your tongue or lose your job.

But enough about the impending world of Thought Crimes and back to the specifics of rugby and cheating.

[Sin é]

What I actually came to post - impressive witch hunt of Gerhard Grobler going on in the Irish media at the moment.

Was going to post this yesterday Sin. It is embarrassing at this stage, you'd think everyone else was whiter than white and every Irish player is clean.

Anyone who would even suggest this is either naive beyond belief or a liar. You only have to look at the physiques and performances of some of the players to know that some of it is too good to be true.

The guy served his ban so just let it go.

Sorry but you're off the mark here, from what I've read the criticism has mostly been of Munster and the IRFU especially the latter when they claim to have a zero tolerance

To claim performances and physiques are too good to be true is bordering on libellous

The sense I get from the press though is that they infer that having Grobler in the squad somehow means that Munster are okay with drug taking in their squad.  That's a leap I just don't see.  That somehow him being in the squad will make kids run out the door and start taking pills.  It's bordering on hysteria.  I'd say he was caught, was punished to the letter of the law, served his ban and is available to be picked up by any club. In fact Munster aren't even the first club to pick him up.  The self-righteousness of some of the OTB and 'legends of the game' has become staggering.  If they really cared so much for the jersey they would be policing the recruitment policy for years gone by and would have been causing a rucous when the player was signed as opposed to when some journo was looking to fill some airtime/column inches in the lull in early january six months later.  He's in the munster set up now, my questions would be has he been tested, are they keeping an eye his intakes.  Have his results so far been clear.  The IRFU can still have a zero tolerance on drugs in their set up -- get a positive results and you're gone, end of story.  That statement is still valid with Grobler signing unless (i) he was still taking when he signed or (ii) has recommenced taking since signing.  If either of those two things are the case then OTB are fine in their righteous indignation but they've broken no story containing either of those two silver bullets for their argument.


The provinces have a history of taking in other teams/countries disgraces, bad apples, problems, reforming them through the provincial set ups and turning them into good players once again.  There have been plenty of personal issues, character issues along the way.  TBH I've always liked how we've handled that in the provinces.

I agree with most of what you say. Just on the steroid use - saw an interview with Carlo del Falva where he said that it stays in your system and will be detected for about 18 months and a lot of kids who take it don't know that. That probably explains why the more senior pros don't go near it (and just develop ashma!).

Your point about the Provinces taking in people who may have a history of taking in a few bad apples is true. I think that may be a catholic ethos thing of you go to confession, tell your sins, do your penance and all is forgiven, so you move on from there.

I'm glad we do take that attitude. Rua Tipoki (who didn't put a toe out of place when with Munster, but has had a few incidents since going back to NZ) is the one that always comes to my mind.

[Collapse2005]

Doug Howlett got in trouble in Ireland when at Munster no?

[LeinsterFan4life]

Dropping Hook was proof that only standardised opinions and standardised counter-opinions are allowed in this lovely Ireland of Ireland.

Yep, censorship.  And growing.  Mind your tongue or lose your job.

But enough about the impending world of Thought Crimes and back to the specifics of rugby and cheating.

Agreed. I don't agree with much Hook has to say but by God I'll defend his right to say it.

[Collapse2005]

Dropping Hook was proof that only standardised opinions and standardised counter-opinions are allowed in this lovely Ireland of Ireland.

Yep, censorship.  And growing.  Mind your tongue or lose your job.

But enough about the impending world of Thought Crimes and back to the specifics of rugby and cheating.

Agreed. I don't agree with much Hook has to say but by God I'll defend his right to say it.

That's how I feel too. People calling for him to lose his job are a disgrace IMO.

[Sin é]

Doug Howlett got in trouble in Ireland when at Munster no?

Not really. Something happened in Kilkenny at Munster xmas party (locals having a go). Indo claimed he was arrested when in fact he wasn't and later apologised for it. Think Howlett sued them.

[Engine#4]

So the IRFU's 'no tolerance' policy on PEDs is only applicable to taking them while under their employ? "Lash away with the HGH lads, get big and powerful and we'll take you on when they are out of your system but still benefitting you". Never mind those trying to make it clean.

[eirebilly]

Big day for Ulster and Munster. A win for both and a win for La Rochelle and Saracens will be out and no English sides in the 1/4 finals. That has never happened.

[eirebilly]

Munster discipline has not improved any. Very stupid from Kleyn, won the penalty only to act the maggot, have the penalty reversed and cost Munster 3 points.

Not impressed with the Munster fans booing either, it was the correct decision.

[eirebilly]

Looks like that is it for Ulster now. A real shame as I was hoping they would get through.

[Collapse2005]

Pity about Ulster.

[Pot Hale]

Ulster need a clearout.

[the-goon]

Ulster need a bit good old Leinster grit. I'd advise signing some Leinster forwards and maybe a former coach as well.

[SecretFly]

Look...... It's something fundamental that's obviously wrong with Ulster..... and even though I've heard about many, many different people behind the scenes and the issues that have come up that could lead to recriminations and bad mood in camp.............. I'd feel right now that the fundamental problem comes sealed with a Kiss.

Ulster needs a new fully confident guy in full charge of the on-field confidence levels and strategies.  I don't like picking on people and talking about them being bad enough that it's time for them to go, but I hate the idea of an Irish Province getting those headlines about being played off the field... a mucky one at that.

Players might have to change, players are coming in.  But my opinion is that Ulster (for the good of all of us actually) has to do the ruthless and admit they need a new ideas man.... and a reputable one.

[Artful_Dodger]

Look...... It's something fundamental that's obviously wrong with Ulster..... and even though I've heard about many, many different people behind the scenes and the issues that have come up that could lead to recriminations and bad mood in camp.............. I'd feel right now that the fundamental problem comes sealed with a Kiss.

Ulster needs a new fully confident guy in full charge of the on-field confidence levels and strategies.  I don't like picking on people and talking about them being bad enough that it's time for them to go, but I hate the idea of an Irish Province getting those headlines about being played off the field... a mucky one at that.

Players might have to change, players are coming in.  But my opinion is that Ulster (for the good of all of us actually) has to do the ruthless and admit they need a new ideas man.... and a reputable one.

I agree, were we playing the right kind of rugby but losing it would be different. But Kiss's approach is playing some rather bizarre form of I'm not sure what and the results aren't coming. We need to bring someone very progressive in and if we get hurt for a couple of seasons whilst laying the foundations then so be it. But we are never going to play silver ware competing rugby under Kiss, regardless of player resources.

[Sin é]

Congrats to all the Pro14 teams that made it through to QFs, pity about Ulster.

I think you are being very harsh on them this season - the Jackson & Olding situation must cast a terrible shadow on the squad and losing Jackson is a big blow to how the team plays.

[Collapse2005]

Look...... It's something fundamental that's obviously wrong with Ulster..... and even though I've heard about many, many different people behind the scenes and the issues that have come up that could lead to recriminations and bad mood in camp.............. I'd feel right now that the fundamental problem comes sealed with a Kiss.

Ulster needs a new fully confident guy in full charge of the on-field confidence levels and strategies.  I don't like picking on people and talking about them being bad enough that it's time for them to go, but I hate the idea of an Irish Province getting those headlines about being played off the field... a mucky one at that.

Players might have to change, players are coming in.  But my opinion is that Ulster (for the good of all of us actually) has to do the ruthless and admit they need a new ideas man.... and a reputable one.

It would be good if Ulster were able to tempt Mark McCall back to Ireland.

[SecretFly]

Look...... It's something fundamental that's obviously wrong with Ulster..... and even though I've heard about many, many different people behind the scenes and the issues that have come up that could lead to recriminations and bad mood in camp.............. I'd feel right now that the fundamental problem comes sealed with a Kiss.

Ulster needs a new fully confident guy in full charge of the on-field confidence levels and strategies.  I don't like picking on people and talking about them being bad enough that it's time for them to go, but I hate the idea of an Irish Province getting those headlines about being played off the field... a mucky one at that.

Players might have to change, players are coming in.  But my opinion is that Ulster (for the good of all of us actually) has to do the ruthless and admit they need a new ideas man.... and a reputable one.

It would be good if Ulster were able to tempt Mark McCall back to Ireland.

A man after my own thinking there, Collapse. I was going to put a PS in there but thought the better of it. I was going to ask about him in terms of saying 'maybe the IRFU could look into encouraging McCall back and as their carrot, telling him not just to do the job at Ulster but to have him in the mix for the International job when Joe finally ends his stint.

But then I felt maybe it was the wrong time to mention something like that given the general mood in Ulster right now and that whole IRFU subject of probable or potential under-investment in the Province.

[Collapse2005]

Yeah I like Les Kiss and he has done a lot of good work for Irish rugby but all good things come to an end and it is sensible to have contingencies in place for the inevitable.

[rodders]

Not much to say about Ulster, other than given the season so far I'm amazed we got to the final weekend with a shot at qualifying. That said it was missed opportunity but would have papered over the many cracks at the Kingspan. A serious clear out is needed but probably they'll find a few scapegoats.

Well done Leinster, they look so strong right now although La Rochelle really exposed their defense around the lineout which will be a concern.

Munster look very impressive also and its hard to see them losing at Thomond but ironically La Rochelle might have presented an easier game than Toulon as they don't travel well.

On current form you'd fancy an all Ireland final, with Scarlets the biggest threat but I fear the 6N may benefit the likes of Racing and Toulon but hopefully there can be an Irish winner.

Well done Connacht also.

[SecretFly]

Another PS....

I'd assume when Joe does go (Please don't Joe!  Stay as long as Gatland has stayed with Wales)  But when he does go, I assume there Will be many people putting McCall's name in there as a possible.

I know what he's done with Saracens but the truth is, I'd probably ideally like to see what he can do with a distinctly Irish set of players first before I'd be willing to offer him the role hands down.  He's got a wealthy team there in Saracens and for a few years there, there was hardly a 'cap' containing him either .  

So it's one thing getting together a club side with lotsa cash on hand for everything, but I'd like to see what he can do with a more restricted structure on players he can choose from and probably quite a lesser budget to get things done with.

So come on McCall.... ready for a real challenge now?

[eirebilly]

Another PS....

I'd assume when Joe does go (Please don't Joe!  Stay as long as Gatland has stayed with Wales)  But when he does go, I assume there Will be many people putting McCall's name in there as a possible.

I would hope that Joe stays until 2021, by that stage ROG would have had a year or two in NZ and a good year with Munster and will be ready to take Ireland to new heights of world rugby dominance

[Collapse2005]

Not much to say about Ulster, other than given the season so far I'm amazed we got to the final weekend with a shot at qualifying. That said it was missed opportunity but would have papered over the many cracks at the Kingspan. A serious clear out is needed but probably they'll find a few scapegoats.

Well done Leinster, they look so strong right now although La Rochelle really exposed their defense around the lineout which will be a concern.

Munster look very impressive also and its hard to see them losing at Thomond but ironically La Rochelle might have presented an easier game than Toulon as they don't travel well.

On current form you'd fancy an all Ireland final, with Scarlets the biggest threat but I fear the 6N may benefit the likes of Racing and Toulon but hopefully there can be an Irish winner.

Well done Connacht also.

I agree re Scarlets.

[thebandwagonsociety]

Look...... It's something fundamental that's obviously wrong with Ulster..... and even though I've heard about many, many different people behind the scenes and the issues that have come up that could lead to recriminations and bad mood in camp.............. I'd feel right now that the fundamental problem comes sealed with a Kiss.

Ulster needs a new fully confident guy in full charge of the on-field confidence levels and strategies.  I don't like picking on people and talking about them being bad enough that it's time for them to go, but I hate the idea of an Irish Province getting those headlines about being played off the field... a mucky one at that.

Players might have to change, players are coming in.  But my opinion is that Ulster (for the good of all of us actually) has to do the ruthless and admit they need a new ideas man.... and a reputable one.

It would be good if Ulster were able to tempt Mark McCall back to Ireland.

A man after my own thinking there, Collapse.  I was going to put a PS in there but thought the better of it.  I was going to ask about him in terms of saying 'maybe the IRFU could look into encouraging McCall back and as their carrot, telling him not just to do the job at Ulster but to have him in the mix for the International job when Joe finally ends his stint.

But then I felt maybe it was the wrong time to mention something like that given the general mood in Ulster right now and that whole IRFU subject of probable or potential under-investment in the Province.

I'd have the impression that carrot was put in front of Kiss by the IRFU back at the time also "here we need you have head coach experience before taking over from Joe down the line so will you do us a solid and move over to Ulster". Couple of season later he's cast onto the wasteheap.

The jackson/olding situation has rocked the boat up there. Their imports (except for Christian) have been relative duds for the Province (and I include Piutau in that, great in places but wing wasn't the weakness up there, the money was needed to be spent on the pack, backrow). Their pack imports have been between unfortunate with injury and below par in performance. And from a coaching ticket point of view, whoever comes in needs to sweep most of the coaching ticket out the door to start a fresh. Marty Moore and Jordi are two decent signings in positions they need help, but they're too late to add to the pack, theyre signing that will almost keep the status quo with age hitting others. Everything org wise feels too slow up there (to me as an outsider from a distance). And some of their squad stalwarts such as Diack and Herring have regressed.

[Collapse2005]

Another PS....

I'd assume when Joe does go (Please don't Joe!  Stay as long as Gatland has stayed with Wales)  But when he does go, I assume there Will be many people putting McCall's name in there as a possible.

I would hope that Joe stays until 2021, by that stage ROG would have had a year or two in NZ and a good year with Munster and will be ready to take Ireland to new heights of world rugby dominance

Don't you think he should hold down a head coach role first for a couple of year before he is in the mix?

I think Bernard Jackman is probably ahead of him on the shortlist at the moment.

[thebandwagonsociety]

Another PS....

I'd assume when Joe does go (Please don't Joe!  Stay as long as Gatland has stayed with Wales)  But when he does go, I assume there Will be many people putting McCall's name in there as a possible.

I would hope that Joe stays until 2021, by that stage ROG would have had a year or two in NZ and a good year with Munster and will be ready to take Ireland to new heights of world rugby dominance

ROG will have the experience, the tactical brain, the well rounded coaching cv........ no chance the suits go for that, cue POC being parachuted in like Johnson was for England back in the day.

[SecretFly]

Another PS....

I'd assume when Joe does go (Please don't Joe!  Stay as long as Gatland has stayed with Wales)  But when he does go, I assume there Will be many people putting McCall's name in there as a possible.

I would hope that Joe stays until 2021, by that stage ROG would have had a year or two in NZ and a good year with Munster and will be ready to take Ireland to new heights of world rugby dominance

Jesus, billy, I was trying to hold off on my real Christmas wish list of 2020 until a little later down the line. Don't go telling Santy what I want so soon!

ROG would be fine...but he too must come back and show us what he's got with an Irish Province.

I hate even mentioning the coach I think is lining himself up for being a great one.... and a possible future Irish top dog. And he's still in Ireland, and he's Irish...and he ain't Cullen.

[SecretFly]

Another PS....

I'd assume when Joe does go (Please don't Joe!  Stay as long as Gatland has stayed with Wales)  But when he does go, I assume there Will be many people putting McCall's name in there as a possible.

I would hope that Joe stays until 2021, by that stage ROG would have had a year or two in NZ and a good year with Munster and will be ready to take Ireland to new heights of world rugby dominance

Don't you think he should hold down a head coach role first for a couple of year before he is in the mix?

I think Bernard Jackman is probably ahead of him on the shortlist at the moment.

Bernard Jackman??

[carpet baboon]

Another PS....

I'd assume when Joe does go (Please don't Joe!  Stay as long as Gatland has stayed with Wales)  But when he does go, I assume there Will be many people putting McCall's name in there as a possible.

I would hope that Joe stays until 2021, by that stage ROG would have had a year or two in NZ and a good year with Munster and will be ready to take Ireland to new heights of world rugby dominance

Jesus, billy, I was trying to hold off on my real Christmas wish list of 2020 until a little later down the line.  Don't go telling Santy what I want so soon!

ROG would be fine...but he too must come back and show us what he's got with an Irish Province.

I hate even mentioning the coach I think is lining himself up for being a great one.... and a possible future Irish top dog.  And he's still in Ireland, and he's Irish...and he ain't Cullen.

Felix Jones?

[SecretFly]

I'd have the impression that carrot was put in front of Kiss by the IRFU back at the time also "here we need you have head coach experience before taking over from Joe down the line so will you do us a solid and move over to Ulster".

If Kiss was Ever seen as the genuine successor in the minds of the IRFU to Joe Schmidt, then yep, we have a serious problem with the IRFU and their thoughts on rugby. But I don't think such a thought was ever serious, even if they used such language to move Kiss up to Belfast.

[SecretFly]

Another PS....

I'd assume when Joe does go (Please don't Joe!  Stay as long as Gatland has stayed with Wales)  But when he does go, I assume there Will be many people putting McCall's name in there as a possible.

I would hope that Joe stays until 2021, by that stage ROG would have had a year or two in NZ and a good year with Munster and will be ready to take Ireland to new heights of world rugby dominance

Jesus, billy, I was trying to hold off on my real Christmas wish list of 2020 until a little later down the line.  Don't go telling Santy what I want so soon!

ROG would be fine...but he too must come back and show us what he's got with an Irish Province.

I hate even mentioning the coach I think is lining himself up for being a great one.... and a possible future Irish top dog.  And he's still in Ireland, and he's Irish...and he ain't Cullen.

Felix Jones?

Hmmmm. There's another one on the way! But no, not the one I was thinking of.

[carpet baboon]

Top ticket of ROG POC and Felix. A bit Munster heavy but I like me ROGs brain, POCs passion and Jones's attacking intent

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