Brexit

by **navyblueshorts** Wed 18 Oct 2017, 8:51 pm

First topic message reminder :

Galted wrote:It will stop foreigners praying in our mosques.

by Samo Wed 06 Dec 2017, 3:35 pm

Can we just admit that this whole mess was a mistake and go back to the way things were before?

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 06 Dec 2017, 4:23 pm

With respect Samo the polls haven't really changed that much since the referendum..

The latest one is 48-44 for staying in.....The furore over the negotiation is hiding the fact that not much has changed when it comes to wanting to leave..

I think leaving is a mistake but there isn't an overwhelming desire to reverse the decision..

by **Hero** Wed 06 Dec 2017, 4:40 pm

That's the thing, those for Brexit will just pull the card of 'you all said it'd be like Chicken Lickin and the sky would be falling in and nothing has changed' yet Brexit hasn't yet actually happened, we're on the Titanic looking at the tiny iceberg thinking it's a calm sea ahead...

by Duty281 Wed 06 Dec 2017, 4:48 pm

Samo wrote:Can we just admit that this whole mess was a mistake and go back to the way things were before?

No. We're getting out of the failed EU project. And just in time, too.

by **ShahenshahG** Wed 06 Dec 2017, 4:51 pm

Failed?

by Duty281 Wed 06 Dec 2017, 4:53 pm

Failing*

by **Pr4wn** Wed 06 Dec 2017, 5:02 pm

Duty281 wrote:Failing*

From the looks of things as we stand, they're a beacon of stability, while the Tories are in utter disarray.

You think that things are going well, Duty?

by Dave. Wed 06 Dec 2017, 5:04 pm

The thing is, if still Remain hadn't spent the last 18 months trying to overturn the result, calling all Leavers bigoted and thick, or that Russia did it......we could have had a compromise. They could have used their political capital for a softer Brexit, instead they didn't, so Leavers got paranoid.

The compromise is the Swiss style solution. Perhaps not as far out as I utimately want, but FOR ME, it'll do right now. It is true some Leavers have pushed for a far harder Brexit then they said before the Referendum. But every time Alastair Campbell et al open their mouths, it makes it harder to compromise. And I don't think that's good. There will have to a bit of give and take here. Both sides.

by **Pr4wn** Wed 06 Dec 2017, 5:07 pm

Dave. wrote:The thing is, if still Remain hadn't spent the last 18 months trying to overturn the result, calling all Leavers bigoted and thick, or that Russia did it......we could have had a compromise. They could have used their political capital for a softer Brexit, instead they didn't, so Leavers got paranoid.

The compromise is the Swiss style solution. Perhaps not as far out as I utimately want, but FOR ME, it'll do right now. It is true some Leavers have pushed for a far harder Brexit then they said before the Referendum. But every time Alastair Campbell et al open their mouths, it makes it harder to compromise. And I don't think that's good. There will have to a bit of give and take here. Both sides.

It's still remainers' fault. Extraordinary.

by Duty281 Wed 06 Dec 2017, 5:23 pm

Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Failing*

From the looks of things as we stand, they're a beacon of stability, while the Tories are in utter disarray.

You think that things are going well, Duty?

The EU is hardly stable! And whilst the Tories are a rabble, they do at least have a working governing majority formed (unlike Germany).

The negotiations are going poorly, but that is to be expected with a pro-EU party at the helm (led by someone who campaigned for Remain).

by **ShahenshahG** Wed 06 Dec 2017, 5:43 pm

Dave. wrote:The thing is, if still Remain hadn't spent the last 18 months trying to overturn the result, calling all Leavers bigoted and thick, or that Russia did it......we could have had a compromise. They could have used their political capital for a softer Brexit, instead they didn't, so Leavers got paranoid.

The compromise is the Swiss style solution. Perhaps not as far out as I utimately want, but FOR ME, it'll do right now. It is true some Leavers have pushed for a far harder Brexit then they said before the Referendum. But every time Alastair Campbell et al open their mouths, it makes it harder to compromise. And I don't think that's good. There will have to a bit of give and take here. Both sides.

A Swiss style deal is not in the offing and even if it was it would take 20 odd years while we were out of the single market. Swiss style is mostly eu with multiple agreements rather than being eu with one agreement so a 20 year transition would never have held water anyway. Yes, let's blame remainers for wanting the best for their country and trying to avert disaster. Did you also have similar contempt for the stop the war coalition after we invaded Iraq?

by Samo Wed 06 Dec 2017, 6:13 pm

So we’re paying £50bn to leave the biggest single trading market, so that we can negotiate an inferior deal with the biggest single trading market but without the protections being a member offers?

That sounds pretty Frak stupid to me. Its like cancelling your full Sky package to pay 3 times as much for the basic package.

by **ShahenshahG** Wed 06 Dec 2017, 6:17 pm

Worse than that Samo You get the basic package which means you receive the signal but it's pay per view as tariffs and non tariff barriers generally are.

by **Pr4wn** Wed 06 Dec 2017, 6:22 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Failing*

From the looks of things as we stand, they're a beacon of stability, while the Tories are in utter disarray.

You think that things are going well, Duty?

The EU is hardly stable! And whilst the Tories are a rabble, they do at least have a working governing majority formed (unlike Germany).

The negotiations are going poorly, but that is to be expected with a pro-EU party at the helm (led by someone who campaigned for Remain).

You're suggesting that Britain is more stable than the EU right now? Are you mental?

by Dave. Wed 06 Dec 2017, 6:31 pm

My point is, most "still remain" (who to be clear, are a distinct group from constructive remain like Stephen Kinnock or Chris Leslie) arguments are:

Leavers are thick.
Russia did it.
Leavers are bigots.
UK bad, EU good.

That's no way of convincing people to change their minds, let alone build consensus. And with the Parliamentary arthimetic there is an opportunity out there, not to mention a Govt who quite frankly looks inept. There's an open goal there to soften Brexit. As with the Leavers pushing for a no deal Brexit may risk no Brexit, Remainers pushing for no Brexit may risk an even harder Brexit.

I just feel that whilst the broader Leave movement may not have exactly helped themselves, it takes two to tango, and Remain folk need to look at the arguments they make, too. And I don't think that's occured.

If you want to stop Brexit, by all means try and revoke Article 50. You'll need the EU to agree to that, I'd have thought. But the tone from some in still Remain doesn't help, just as Aaron Banks doesn't help Leave, in my opinion.

by **Pr4wn** Wed 06 Dec 2017, 6:39 pm

Dave. wrote:My point is, most "still remain" (who to be clear, are a distinct group from constructive remain like Stephen Kinnock or Chris Leslie) arguments are:

Leavers are thick.
Russia did it.
Leavers are bigots.
UK bad, EU good.

That's no way of convincing people to change their minds, let alone build consensus. And with the Parliamentary arthimetic there is an opportunity out there, not to mention a Govt who quite frankly looks inept. There's an open goal there to soften Brexit. As with the Leavers pushing for a no deal Brexit may risk no Brexit, Remainers pushing for no Brexit may risk an even harder Brexit.

I just feel that whilst the broader Leave movement may not have exactly helped themselves, it takes two to tango, and Remain folk need to look at the arguments they make, too. And I don't think that's occured.

If you want to stop Brexit, by all means try and revoke Article 50. You'll need the EU to agree to that, I'd have thought. But the tone from some in still Remain doesn't help, just as Aaron Banks doesn't help Leave, in my opinion.

If you think that these people are the issue that's worth debating here, with everything else that's going on, then you're past saving.

The leavers, yes, the leavers are the ones that are making a total balls-up of this. Davis is heading up the negotiations. He is and always was a leaver. How are the negotiations going?

by Dave. Wed 06 Dec 2017, 9:41 pm

As I've said in my comments, I don't think the Government has covered itself in glory re the negoiations. But it's not all on their side. The stance of some Remain and Leave folk is not helping. I feel there is a difference between constructive criticism of the Govt, and just taking what the EU say as being 100 pc correct. For example, I think the Govt should have unilaterally guaranteed citizens rights. But what the EU (and Varadkar) are asking for on the Irish border is an example of the EU going too far. No one wants a hard border, but they were asking for an Irish Sea border, which is also contrary to the Belfast Agreement. Thankfully, special status for NI is off the table (when Soubry and Rees-Mogg are against it, albeit for different reasons, you know what a blunder it was).

Perhaps the point I'm trying to make is......the Govt aren't handling things great ATM. But I don't think they are solely to blame. Any compromise they make is said to be a "humiliating climbdown". Any compromise they don't make, they are said to be blocking progress. And I think some in the Remain camp are culpable for the current atmosphere, by their previous rhetoric, just as some in Leave are culpable for saying it was going to be easy (when it was clear it wasn't).

I just think that the current political atmosphere is not helping necessary compromises to be made. Some of that is on some Leavers, yes. But not all, and I think some on the Remain side need to reflect on what they have said and how they have acted, too. They are not blameless in this.

In any case, I feel the Govt will soon face a no confidence vote, either when talks with the EU collapse (if that occurs), the DUP for some reason pull support (though if special status is off the table I think that unlikely), or a defeat on the Withdrawal Bill. Likewise, Theresa May could face a leadership challenge from either her Soubryite or JRM wing. We will find out soon enough.

by catchweight Wed 06 Dec 2017, 10:00 pm

Voting for brexit and not wanting a hard border is like you fancy a swim in winter without getting cold.

It cant happen without some kind of special arrangement. There was no due dilligence done on this prior to the vote so we created this quandry and have not really got a solution.

by CaledonianCraig Thu 07 Dec 2017, 5:14 am

The whole question was too simplified. Remain or Leave should have been made into three options. Remain part of the EU. Leave with a soft exit or leave with a hard exit.

by Duty281 Thu 07 Dec 2017, 5:48 am

What’s a ‘soft exit’?

by CaledonianCraig Thu 07 Dec 2017, 6:15 am

Duty281 wrote:What’s a ‘soft exit’?

Remaining part of the single market.

by catchweight Thu 07 Dec 2017, 7:37 am

The referendum should have been leave completely or stay. No soft brexit which is wishy washy and at the mercy of negotiations.

If they were going to make it a simple binary choice, the outcomes should have been simple.

by **Hero** Thu 07 Dec 2017, 9:11 am

Duty281 wrote:What’s a ‘soft exit’?

As you get older you'll get to know.

by Scottrf Thu 07 Dec 2017, 9:37 am

It shouldn't have been a vote.

by **JuliusHMarx** Thu 07 Dec 2017, 10:33 am

Hero wrote:
Duty281 wrote:What’s a ‘soft exit’?

As you get older you'll get to know.

Even Hero mocks my advanced years.

by Duty281 Thu 07 Dec 2017, 11:04 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Duty281 wrote:What’s a ‘soft exit’?

Remaining part of the single market.

How? It isn't automatic that the UK would be allowed to rejoin EFTA.

by lostinwales Thu 07 Dec 2017, 12:27 pm

Dave. wrote:As I've said in my comments, I don't think the Government has covered itself in glory re the negoiations. But it's not all on their side. The stance of some Remain and Leave folk is not helping. I feel there is a difference between constructive criticism of the Govt, and just taking what the EU say as being 100 pc correct. For example, I think the Govt should have unilaterally guaranteed citizens rights. But what the EU (and Varadkar) are asking for on the Irish border is an example of the EU going too far. No one wants a hard border, but they were asking for an Irish Sea border, which is also contrary to the Belfast Agreement. Thankfully, special status for NI is off the table (when Soubry and Rees-Mogg are against it, albeit for different reasons, you know what a blunder it was).

Perhaps the point I'm trying to make is......the Govt aren't handling things great ATM. But I don't think they are solely to blame. Any compromise they make is said to be a "humiliating climbdown". Any compromise they don't make, they are said to be blocking progress. And I think some in the Remain camp are culpable for the current atmosphere, by their previous rhetoric, just as some in Leave are culpable for saying it was going to be easy (when it was clear it wasn't).

I just think that the current political atmosphere is not helping necessary compromises to be made. Some of that is on some Leavers, yes. But not all, and I think some on the Remain side need to reflect on what they have said and how they have acted, too. They are not blameless in this.

In any case, I feel the Govt will soon face a no confidence vote, either when talks with the EU collapse (if that occurs), the DUP for some reason pull support (though if special status is off the table I think that unlikely), or a defeat on the Withdrawal Bill. Likewise, Theresa May could face a leadership challenge from either her Soubryite or JRM wing. We will find out soon enough.

Look you are going to get nutters on both sides, and it is important not to tar everyone on a given side with the same brush. There is a growing trend on the leave side to paint the remainers as all rabid and wrong, based on a few idiots taking cheap shots, and seemingly as a way to avoid answering the real questions that are coming up.

I do find it completely shocking that the Brexit side has done so little work on actually assessing what it all means or what it even is that they want. And I do actually find it hard to locate real solid arguments in favour of Brexit outside of the idealistic/faith based ones. And as for those idealistic/faith based arguments there does not seem to be a lot of consistency in belief across the leavers

In a sense Brexit masks another more fundamental questions. There are a lot of people pissed off with the idea of the EU and I can sort of understand that even if it is frustrating that you get the feeling that many will ignore evidence that is contrary to those beliefs. But there are also a lot of people who are just pissed off, for whatever reason. Even if Brexit is actually achieved I can't see those people stopping being pissed off, especially if things that contribute to that state are not magically fixed by Brexit, which I would suspect is highly likely. I would suspect that if we want to move on as a country the funding currently being wasted on the brexit farago could much better be spent trying to work out why these people are unhappy and what can be done to practically change that position.

by **ShahenshahG** Fri 08 Dec 2017, 6:57 am

Oh, thank f*ck for that

by **superflyweight** Fri 08 Dec 2017, 1:40 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Dave. wrote:As I've said in my comments, I don't think the Government has covered itself in glory re the negoiations. But it's not all on their side. The stance of some Remain and Leave folk is not helping. I feel there is a difference between constructive criticism of the Govt, and just taking what the EU say as being 100 pc correct. For example, I think the Govt should have unilaterally guaranteed citizens rights. But what the EU (and Varadkar) are asking for on the Irish border is an example of the EU going too far. No one wants a hard border, but they were asking for an Irish Sea border, which is also contrary to the Belfast Agreement. Thankfully, special status for NI is off the table (when Soubry and Rees-Mogg are against it, albeit for different reasons, you know what a blunder it was).

Perhaps the point I'm trying to make is......the Govt aren't handling things great ATM. But I don't think they are solely to blame. Any compromise they make is said to be a "humiliating climbdown". Any compromise they don't make, they are said to be blocking progress. And I think some in the Remain camp are culpable for the current atmosphere, by their previous rhetoric, just as some in Leave are culpable for saying it was going to be easy (when it was clear it wasn't).

I just think that the current political atmosphere is not helping necessary compromises to be made. Some of that is on some Leavers, yes. But not all, and I think some on the Remain side need to reflect on what they have said and how they have acted, too. They are not blameless in this.

In any case, I feel the Govt will soon face a no confidence vote, either when talks with the EU collapse (if that occurs), the DUP for some reason pull support (though if special status is off the table I think that unlikely), or a defeat on the Withdrawal Bill. Likewise, Theresa May could face a leadership challenge from either her Soubryite or JRM wing. We will find out soon enough.

Look you are going to get nutters on both sides, and it is important not to tar everyone on a given side with the same brush. There is a growing trend on the leave side to paint the remainers as all rabid and wrong, based on a few idiots taking cheap shots, and seemingly as a way to avoid answering the real questions that are coming up.

I do find it completely shocking that the Brexit side has done so little work on actually assessing what it all means or what it even is that they want. And I do actually find it hard to locate real solid arguments in favour of Brexit outside of the idealistic/faith based ones. And as for those idealistic/faith based arguments there does not seem to be a lot of consistency in belief across the leavers

In a sense Brexit masks another more fundamental questions. There are a lot of people pissed off with the idea of the EU and I can sort of understand that even if it is frustrating that you get the feeling that many will ignore evidence that is contrary to those beliefs. But there are also a lot of people who are just pissed off, for whatever reason. Even if Brexit is actually achieved I can't see those people stopping being pissed off, especially if things that contribute to that state are not magically fixed by Brexit, which I would suspect is highly likely. I would suspect that if we want to move on as a country the funding currently being wasted on the brexit farago could much better be spent trying to work out why these people are unhappy and what can be done to practically change that position.

We should just take anyone who complains outside and have them shot. It would have prevented the rise of the half-witted, reciter of the Nazi song-book, Farage and would ultimately be a much cheaper option.

by **rodders** Fri 08 Dec 2017, 1:50 pm

Samo wrote:
That sounds pretty Frak stupid to me. Its like cancelling your full Sky package to pay 3 times as much for the basic package.

And letting someone else pick what programs you can watch.

by **Pr4wn** Fri 08 Dec 2017, 3:14 pm

See Mrs May? Was that so hard? All you had to do was roll over and give the EU whatever it wanted. Better get used to it.

by **ShahenshahG** Fri 08 Dec 2017, 4:21 pm

Nah to be fair all they've done is kick the can down the road. I think Brexit might not go through after all. No legal way of squaring non membership of the internal market with a soft border. All the EU has gotten what it wanted...signed documentation saying that this is the UK''s problem. If talks ended now both the EU and UK would take an enormous hit. If they fail at the end a lot of people will have made or put into place contingency plans and thus mitigate the damage.so the EU bent over backward to help may get it through the barrier before it went completely south.

by **ShahenshahG** Fri 08 Dec 2017, 4:22 pm

Regulatory alignment is code for we do what you tell us. For the love of god, being an eu member is better than this.

by Dave. Fri 08 Dec 2017, 5:27 pm

Have to say I'm happy with that. Both sides have compromised here which is good. Could have been quicker, but we got there. No hard border and no Irish Sea Border makes this border Unionist happy. The battle will be Canada v Norway now, but progress.

by **ShahenshahG** Fri 08 Dec 2017, 5:34 pm

No Dave, it's Norway or nothing. Canada means hard border.

by CaledonianCraig Fri 08 Dec 2017, 5:52 pm

Well today chalked up another lie perpetrated by Better Together campaign in 2014. They said a soft border was not an option between part of the EU (then the UK) and an independent Scotland (who would have been non-EU) but now that situation has been agreed to on the Ireland-Northern Ireland border.

by **ShahenshahG** Fri 08 Dec 2017, 6:02 pm

No it hasn't and northern ireland will not have a soft bprder unless we remain in the internal market. What they've said is Northern Ireland will have the same border with Ireland as before. What's true for Northern Ireland is true for the rest of the UK. If we're in the internal market there's no border or a minimal border and if we're out there will be a hard one. All this agreement is kicking the can down the road so we don't get the worst of it an overnight Brexit.

by Duty281 Fri 08 Dec 2017, 8:25 pm

In reality, very little progress has been made. Theresa May is proving herself more useless and incompetent by the day.

As you were.

by **Hero** Fri 08 Dec 2017, 8:59 pm

Being as there will remain open borders into Europe through N.Ireland how are we stopping all those Johnny foreigners coming here now?
Or is it just the plan to bankrupt the country so no one actually wants to come here?

by Dave. Fri 08 Dec 2017, 9:45 pm

Willie McCrea songs Hero. That'll scare them away.

by catchweight Sat 09 Dec 2017, 3:04 am

Im not sure how the border issue has been resolved. On the one we have guarateed no special treatment for northern ireland whilst also guaranteeing that there will be no hard border. This seems to be impossible to carry out and later down the line this will resurface. Realistically it sounds like we have agreed to a soft border where northern ireland will be subject to regulatory alignment with the eu.

by Samo Sun 10 Dec 2017, 8:48 am

Brexit negotiations, to date:

• Same regulations
• Same open borders
• Same European courts
• Same single market
• Same payments to EU

But:
• Lost all say in EU rules
• Squandered 1000s of jobs
• Knocked 18% off the pound
• Risked the Union
• Spent £50 billion

But atleast we got are country back innit

by theslosty Sun 10 Dec 2017, 3:41 pm

Poll today showing 53% support for a United Ireland in the event of a hard border.

by lostinwales Tue 12 Dec 2017, 12:23 pm

Utterly hilarious news that the secret EU spies might just have got wind of Davies et al saying that they feel Friday's agreement is not binding. Now they have got this top secret information back to their spy masters there is a suggestion that they won't recommend moving onto stage 2 any more.

by **Pr4wn** Tue 12 Dec 2017, 1:48 pm

David Davis is a bit simple, isn't he?

by Samo Tue 12 Dec 2017, 1:56 pm

Pr4wn wrote:David Davis is a bit simple, isn't he?

Well you dont have to be clever to do his job. His words. His exact words.

by Scottrf Tue 12 Dec 2017, 2:59 pm

Samo wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:David Davis is a bit simple, isn't he?

Well you dont have to be clever to do his job. His words. His exact words.

Dunning-Kruger. Intelligent people underrate their intelligence, the unintelligent overrate it.

by **navyblueshorts** Tue 12 Dec 2017, 5:14 pm

Scottrf wrote:
Samo wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:David Davis is a bit simple, isn't he?

Well you dont have to be clever to do his job. His words. His exact words.

Dunning-Kruger. Intelligent people underrate their intelligence, the unintelligent overrate it.

There's a lot of that about in the political sphere these days, it would seem...

by **ShahenshahG** Wed 13 Dec 2017, 4:25 am

Scottrf wrote:
Samo wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:David Davis is a bit simple, isn't he?

Well you dont have to be clever to do his job. His words. His exact words.

Dunning-Kruger. Intelligent people underrate their intelligence, the unintelligent overrate it.

Wasn't it intelligent people underrate their competence rather than intelligence? That's a significant difference. In thinking he is doing a fair job you could use your argument to say he is unintelligent because he's over rating his competence.

by Scottrf Wed 13 Dec 2017, 7:32 am

Intelligence is so broad and the test graded parts of it so I'm not sure it's an important distinction.

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