Brexit

by **navyblueshorts** Wed 18 Oct 2017, 8:51 pm

First topic message reminder :

Galted wrote:It will stop foreigners praying in our mosques.

by Ent Wed 13 Dec 2017, 10:54 am

Not sure anyone is going to be happy at the end of this.

Panel of 15 leave voters doing a feature this morning.

Lots of the usual naivety on display but what surprised me was not a single person would have been happy with a deal seeing remaining in the single market.

Government is doing a poor jo but it is a near impossible task.

by **navyblueshorts** Wed 13 Dec 2017, 11:33 am

Ent wrote:Not sure anyone is going to be happy at the end of this.

Panel of 15 leave voters doing a feature this morning.

Lots of the usual naivety on display but what surprised me was not a single person would have been happy with a deal seeing remaining in the single market.

Government is doing a poor jo but it is a near impossible task.

That's probably because economics had nothing to do with the way they voted. Got to get rid of Johnny Foreigner and 'take back control' picard

.

by Duty281 Wed 13 Dec 2017, 12:38 pm

Ent wrote:not a single person would have been happy with a deal seeing remaining in the single market

Quite right too. Senior figures on both sides of the referendum debate acknowledged that a vote to leave would be a vote to end our membership of the Single Market.

by Ent Wed 13 Dec 2017, 12:44 pm

Wasn't the stereotypical crowd (5 live production) some reasonably constructed points that pbviously fell apart when tested at all (one person adamant about sovereignty thy couldn't name one eu law they disagreed with).

A lot of it was about the reaction they got and break down in family relationships over voting leave etc

by Duty281 Wed 13 Dec 2017, 12:58 pm

Ent wrote:(one person adamant about sovereignty thy couldn't name one eu law they disagreed with).

The point about sovereignty is about asserting greater democratic control over law-makers; not necessarily disagreeing with specific aspects of EU law (which is another matter).

by Ent Wed 13 Dec 2017, 1:08 pm

Not when said person was complaining about all the eu laws that effect our everyday lives - then can't name one.

If sovereignty as a concept is the issue rather than the actual practical implications that actually effect he country and our lives then their isn't much hope for us.

by Ent Wed 13 Dec 2017, 1:18 pm

Anyway the point isn't to rerun the referendum debate, the arguments have been heard time and time again.

The point is (a relatively small cohort) of fairly sensible leave voters have expressed their reasons for voting leave and their desires for a post exit Britain - they aren't realistic and they won't be happy with any deal that the government deliver - a difficult position for the government.

by Duty281 Wed 13 Dec 2017, 1:28 pm

Yes, just gave it a short listen.

The BBC seem to use the same audience for most of their radio shows about Brexit; I know one lady who was on the 5Live programme this morning, this is the fourth or fifth time she has been on BBC radio discussing Brexit in the last year.

by Ent Wed 13 Dec 2017, 1:32 pm

Small pool of coherent leave voters Whistle

by Samo Wed 13 Dec 2017, 2:50 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Ent wrote:not a single person would have been happy with a deal seeing remaining in the single market

Quite right too. Senior figures on both sides of the referendum debate acknowledged that a vote to leave would be a vote to end our membership of the Single Market.

Well about that...

by Ent Wed 13 Dec 2017, 3:22 pm

I just didn't see the point in demonstrating the mistruths/inconsistencies in the leave ideology - they know about them and don't care.

by Duty281 Wed 13 Dec 2017, 3:26 pm

Samo wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Ent wrote:not a single person would have been happy with a deal seeing remaining in the single market

Quite right too. Senior figures on both sides of the referendum debate acknowledged that a vote to leave would be a vote to end our membership of the Single Market.

Well about that...

Ah yes, the out of context quotes which were brilliantly taken apart by Andrew Neil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHzmCHcM7cA

And then try these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fDn0MvcHQ4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUI5A1Gd5D0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsgX9J51ruw&feature=youtu.be&t=2m56s

So that's Cameron, Benn, Javid, Osborne, Farage, Gove, Johnson, and Leadsom all stating - during the referendum campaign - that a vote to Leave would be a vote to leave the Single Market.

by Ent Wed 13 Dec 2017, 3:48 pm

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/09/was-brexit-really-vote-leaving-single-market-campaigns-revisited%3famp

He said she said, there was clearly an appetite at one point or another for some (not all) of the big leave supporters to remain in the single market.

by Duty281 Wed 13 Dec 2017, 3:58 pm

Ent wrote:https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/09/was-brexit-really-vote-leaving-single-market-campaigns-revisited%3famp

He said she said, there was clearly an appetite at one point or another for some (not all) of the big leave supporters to remain in the single market.

Both official campaigns stated clearly and repeatedly that a vote to Leave would be a vote to end our membership of the Single Market.

A hardcore minority of Remainers are pretending this wasn't the case, in spite of all the evidence. This is the same revisionist history that has led to the terms 'soft' Brexit and 'hard' Brexit, which are works of fiction in an effort to split the Leave camp.

by **Pr4wn** Wed 13 Dec 2017, 4:07 pm

Just goes to show that neither campaign had the foggiest idea of what leaving the EU actually meant.

How the public was expected to make an informed decision on this, I have no idea.

by Ent Wed 13 Dec 2017, 5:32 pm

There is a free trade zone stretching all the way from Iceland to the Russian border. We will still be part of it after we Vote Leave."

Is a quote on vote leaves website.

Dan hannen continually stating the position isn't under threat and bringing up Norway/Switzerland.

https://youtu.be/zzykce4oxII

2015 conservative manifesto talks about safeguarding British interest o the single market etc etc

https://www.bond.org.uk/data/files/Blog/ConservativeManifesto2015.pdf

Plenty of chat about staying in the single market.

by Ent Wed 13 Dec 2017, 5:52 pm

Again slightly off track, during this piece I was talking about after the panel rejected membership of the single market a hypothetical agreement with zero tariff trade but maintaining voluntary alignment with regulations. This too was rejected by most.

Will anyone really be happy post exit with what the government come up with? Personally I don't think so.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 13 Dec 2017, 7:34 pm

Just what you need when you have a tenuous coalition..

Mps having a meaningful say on the Brexit deal..

May's week of walking on water comes to an end.

by Samo Wed 13 Dec 2017, 7:59 pm

Leave voters in a meltdown over a sovereign parliament having a say on the countries future, but I thought thats what they wanted? Headscratch

by Duty281 Wed 13 Dec 2017, 8:11 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Just what you need when you have a tenuous coalition..

Mps having a meaningful say on the Brexit deal..

May's week of walking on water comes to an end.

May's PMship is coming to an end.

Good lord, another election in 2018...!

by Ent Wed 13 Dec 2017, 8:54 pm

If she rides it out could be some political capital in it.

Labour will either have to vote in favour of the deal the government have negotiated or be the party who went against the democratic will of the people and stopped the eu exit.

The eu will give the uk the deal it wants, parliament rejecting it won't result in the negotiators obtaining a better deal.

by Samo Thu 14 Dec 2017, 8:10 am

So Theresa May has sacked Tory Vice Chairman Stephen Hammond for voting for the ammendment, whereas “n****r in the woodpile” Anne Marie Morris is quietly reinstated. Nice to see where her morals lie.

by Dave. Thu 14 Dec 2017, 8:21 am

Up until the ref campaign, there were Leavers who wanted to stay in the single market. Never been anything for the customs union. The referendum changed that paradigm. Hannan wants a Swiss solution, out of the formal single market, out of the customs union, but participates in the parts of the Single Market it wants to.

As for last night, well under Parliamentary democracy last night's vote can in effect be reversed at Report Stage - I suspect it will in some shape or form.

by lostinwales Thu 14 Dec 2017, 9:50 pm

Ent wrote:If she rides it out could be some political capital in it.

Labour will either have to vote in favour of the deal the government have negotiated or be the party who went against the democratic will of the people and stopped the eu exit.

The eu will give the uk the deal it wants, parliament rejecting it won't result in the negotiators obtaining a better deal.

Which raises the question- what is the deal that we apparently want and when is the cabinet actually going to get around to discussing it? Is it as top secret as all those impact assessments.

(Or are they just waiting for Dacre to tell them what it should be...)

Oh and talking of assessments, this one is from the House of Lords. It is more about the consequences of no deal but you get the feeling whoever wrote this is not a fan of Dave lying Davies.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201719/ldselect/ldeucom/46/4602.htm

by **ShahenshahG** Fri 15 Dec 2017, 1:33 am

Dave. wrote:Up until the ref campaign, there were Leavers who wanted to stay in the single market. Never been anything for the customs union. The referendum changed that paradigm. Hannan wants a Swiss solution, out of the formal single market, out of the customs union, but participates in the parts of the Single Market it wants to.

As for last night, well under Parliamentary democracy last night's vote can in effect be reversed at Report Stage - I suspect it will in some shape or form.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/16/switzerland-u-turn-quotas-on-eu-workers-immigration&ved=2ahUKEwjHoMSH7orYAhVRqKQKHeTFB3gQFjAOegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw3MUgwwi6_qXSBqLa0wQU77&ampcf=1

The Swiss solution is not what you want at all if you want sovereign decisions and control of your borders. Plus it costs too much for the amount of benefits it's brings and the administration of it is a nightmare. It's unlikely the EU will let us have one such and even if they do, it'll be much worse than the one we have already. Especially as we'd be tied into adherence to all the treaties in which failure of one treaty would nullify all thr other treaties. Leave doesn't know what it wants and doesn't understand how much our unique position in the EU benefitted us. Don't be surprised when we either capitulate completely or start cutting public services and accrued pensions to make up the shortfall.

by Ent Fri 15 Dec 2017, 2:52 am

U.K. Had the best deal in the eu bar none.

May will go down as one of the greatest leaders in history if she delivers an anyway palatable exit, such is the impossibility of her task.

by Scottrf Fri 15 Dec 2017, 8:54 am

A real leader would say 'this is a f up, I'm not doing it'.

by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 15 Dec 2017, 9:38 am

May will be remembered for losing her majority against a guy that had only 42 mps covering 96 shadow briefs and was probably the most unelectable opposition leader in history.

To think Brexit will change anything is staggering....

by CaledonianCraig Sat 16 Dec 2017, 12:15 pm

The Tories showed themselves in true colours over the recent rebellious vote. Phillip Hammond was sacked from his post because he dared to vote for something he believed in. Now this just emphasises what voting Tory for Scots is like. A vote for them and all they are programmed to vote for is what Westminster Tory party ordains regardless of what effect it has on that Mp's constituents.

by **Hero** Sat 16 Dec 2017, 1:48 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:The Tories showed themselves in true colours over the recent rebellious vote. Phillip Hammond was sacked from his post because he dared to vote for something he believed in. Now this just emphasises what voting Tory for Scots is like. A vote for them and all they are programmed to vote for is what Westminster Tory party ordains regardless of what effect it has on that Mp's constituents.

Phillip Hammond is the Chancellor.
Think you mean Stephen Hammond.

by Dave. Sat 16 Dec 2017, 2:02 pm

Stephen Hammond was removed as Vice-Chairman for London. Calls for deselection, but do wonder if that will just make those likely to rebel, just rebel anyway.

With Oliver Letwin teaming up with Leave voting Tories by putting down a compromise amendment on leaving date (leaving date is on the Bill, but it can be changed), and given he has suggested Clause 9 now be deleted post Grieve amendment, I suspect he could put down an amendment at Report to do just that.

by CaledonianCraig Sat 16 Dec 2017, 2:17 pm

Hero wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:The Tories showed themselves in true colours over the recent rebellious vote. Phillip Hammond was sacked from his post because he dared to vote for something he believed in. Now this just emphasises what voting Tory for Scots is like. A vote for them and all they are programmed to vote for is what Westminster Tory party ordains regardless of what effect it has on that Mp's constituents.

Phillip Hammond is the Chancellor.
Think you mean Stephen Hammond.

That's him. Cheers. thumbsup

by Mad for Chelsea Thu 21 Dec 2017, 1:01 pm

After rather a lot of nonsense, the Brexit sectoral analysis (or whatever you want to call them) have finally been published. They include such glorious insights as "The HE (Higher Education) sector has different economic characteristics to manufacturing and other services related sectors in the UK economy". What they don't contain is any impact analysis.

I think Paul Waugh sums it up rather well here
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/943818474270482437

Also, this was according to Davis information so sensitive that it couldn't possibly be published as it would reveal too much to the EU?? Really?? Pathetic.

by **Pr4wn** Thu 21 Dec 2017, 2:01 pm

It's obviously been suppressed and parts removed.

by Steffan Fri 22 Dec 2017, 2:58 pm

It's ok we get blue passports now so all this political and economic uncertainty was worth it

by **Pr4wn** Fri 22 Dec 2017, 4:59 pm

Apparently, according to Conservative MP Andrew Rosindell the burgundy passports were a source of "national humilitation".

What a tw@t.

by Samo Fri 22 Dec 2017, 4:59 pm

Steffan wrote:It's ok we get blue passports now so all this political and economic uncertainty was worth it

The blue passports we'll have to import. It gets better and better.

by **ShahenshahG** Fri 22 Dec 2017, 6:04 pm

Best thing about it is that it will be Blue with gold. EU colours.

by **navyblueshorts** Fri 22 Dec 2017, 9:54 pm

Pr4wn wrote:Apparently, according to Conservative MP Andrew Rosindell the burgundy passports were a source of "national humilitation".

What a tw@t.

Yep. Sadly, there's a lot of them in the Commons.

by **navyblueshorts** Fri 22 Dec 2017, 9:59 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:Best thing about it is that it will be Blue with gold. EU colours.

Hah! Good point. Brexit just keeps on giving doesn't it?

by Dave. Fri 22 Dec 2017, 10:28 pm

Tbh it seems that there are more people annoyed that people supposedly wanted passport colours changed than the amount who wanted the colour changed in the first place.

I mean, contract is up, they were going to be updated anyway even if we had stayed in, so why not. Doesn't keep me up at night thinking about it.

by Steffan Fri 22 Dec 2017, 11:35 pm

It's ironic really. The people who celebrate the passport change (Brexitears) will probably never actually own one themselves (apart from the Benidorm crew)

by Duty281 Sat 23 Dec 2017, 2:46 am

Dave. wrote:I mean, contract is up, they were going to be updated anyway even if we had stayed in, so why not.

This is something that hasn't been grasped by elements of the media and a handful of MPs, like the Shadow Education Secretary Angela Rayner.

They think the UK is paying half a billion just to change the colour. picard

by **ShahenshahG** Sat 23 Dec 2017, 7:19 am

Duty281 wrote:
Dave. wrote:I mean, contract is up, they were going to be updated anyway even if we had stayed in, so why not.

This is something that hasn't been grasped by elements of the media and a handful of MPs, like the Shadow Education Secretary Angela Rayner.

They think the UK is paying half a billion just to change the colour.

Oh no no no. It's quite easily grasped by most people. It's just that brexiteers are selling it as some sort of Brexit victory when it's nothing of the sort. This is kinda funny to us. To be fair, you've won and we lost so why don't you go enjoy your victory and leave us to our grim humour?

Can I ask why you haven't commented on the shoddy reports coming out of the Brexit department? I mean this is less than schoolboys could come up with, are you not concerned that Brexit is going to be a worse disaster than anyone ever thought? Even if you think some good will come of it aren't you worried about the bungling going on in government?

by Duty281 Sat 23 Dec 2017, 9:31 am

ShahenshahG wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Dave. wrote:I mean, contract is up, they were going to be updated anyway even if we had stayed in, so why not.

This is something that hasn't been grasped by elements of the media and a handful of MPs, like the Shadow Education Secretary Angela Rayner.

They think the UK is paying half a billion just to change the colour.

Oh no no no. It's quite easily grasped by most people. It's just that brexiteers are selling it as some sort of Brexit victory when it's nothing of the sort. This is kinda funny to us. To be fair, you've won and we lost so why don't you go enjoy your victory and leave us to our grim humour?

Can I ask why you haven't commented on the shoddy reports coming out of the Brexit department? I mean this is less than schoolboys could come up with, are you not concerned that Brexit is going to be a worse disaster than anyone ever thought? Even if you think some good will come of it aren't you worried about the bungling going on in government?

Perhaps it is grasped by most people, but to see prominent MPs and some journalistic outlets peddle more fake news...it just isn’t helpful. Very few Brexiteers are championing this as a great victory.

Nobody has ‘won’ or ‘lost’. A majority did vote for the UK to regain its independence, leave the failing EU and become a properly self-governing nation again. But that was just the end of the beginning of the struggle.

I’ve long made my feelings clear about:

1) How useless the Tory Party and their governance is.
2) How pro-EU the Tory Party is.
3) How I never expect Brexit to happen with the present government.
4) How the benefits of Brexit are without limit, and how there are no upsides to being in the EU.
5) How truly useless the Tory Party is.

by Ent Sat 23 Dec 2017, 10:37 am

If having blue passports was so important it could have been changed at any stage. Burgundy was an agreement not a legal requirement.

Would be a massive own goal if they don't renew the de la due contract after all the bleating about it.

Theresa may wrote:The UK passport is an expression of our independence and sovereignty – symbolising our citizenship of a proud, great nation. That's why we have announced that the iconic #bluepassport will return after we leave the European Union in 2019.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 26 Dec 2017, 4:29 pm

Yougov...19 Dec

Should we stay in or leave EU ??

Stay 39 -5
Leave 48 +2

Evidence shows that now the UK is getting on with leaving.. the Public want the Govt to get on with it.

Probably explains Labour's stance of fence sitting....

by lostinwales Wed 27 Dec 2017, 11:46 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Yougov...19 Dec

Should we stay in or leave EU ??

Stay 39 -5
Leave 48 +2

Evidence shows that now the UK is getting on with leaving.. the Public want the Govt to get on with it.

Probably explains Labour's stance of fence sitting....

Just goes to show that the public can be somewhat educationally challenged...

by **navyblueshorts** Wed 03 Jan 2018, 4:48 pm

lostinwales wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Yougov...19 Dec

Should we stay in or leave EU ??

Stay 39 -5
Leave 48 +2

Evidence shows that now the UK is getting on with leaving.. the Public want the Govt to get on with it.

Probably explains Labour's stance of fence sitting....

Just goes to show that the public can be somewhat educationally challenged...

Very true. Here's some more evidence, which is interesting given some of the nonsense spoken about re. reasons for leaving the EU:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42554635

by **Pr4wn** Wed 03 Jan 2018, 4:55 pm

Stop it with your "statistics" and "evidence". They aren't welcome in this argument.

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