England Versus Australia 18th November 2017 3pm k.o.

by hugehandoff Mon 13 Nov 2017, 12:41 pm

A resurgent Wallabies arrive in town with a great opportunity to halt their run of defeats to England. They are in much better current form and are looking sharp. EJs is trying to test out a few new players and rotate his Lions with a long term RWC view. He has said he will take the odd defeat along the way if it helps develop the side longer term. I think this Sat could be one of those defeats.

I do agree with seeing how some different players cope and do not disagree with his approach. Therefore, we need to see Williams, George, Watson (at 15) all start. If Teo was fit I would also go Farrell at 10 and Teo at 12 with Slade at 13 (deserves 1 more go despite being poor on Sat).

Once these AIs are over then I think the time for experimenting is done and we then play each match as if it is our last. This will enable the combinations to bed in and be battle hardened for RWC 2019.

Team: Watson, May, Joseph, Farrell, Daly; Ford, Youngs; M Vunipola, Hartley, Cole; Launchbury, Lawes; Robshaw, Underhill, Hughes.

Replacements: George, Marler, Williams, Itoje, Simmonds, Care, Slade, Rokoduguni.

Australia: 15 Kurtley Beale, 14 Marika Koroibete, 13 Tevita Kuridrani, 12 Samu Kerevi, 11 Reece Hodge, 10 Bernard Foley, 9 Will Genia; 1 Scott Sio, 2 Tatafu Polota-Nau, 3 Sekope Kepu, 4 Rob Simmons, 5 Adam Coleman, 6 Ned Hanigan, 7 Michael Hooper, 8 Sean McMahon
Replacements: 16 Stephen Moore, 17 Tom Robertson, 18 Allan Alaalatoa, 19 Matt Philip, 20 Ben McCalman, 21 Lopeti Timani, 22 Nick Phipps, 23 Kurtley Beale, 24 Henry Speight*

*one to be omitted

by No 7&1/2 Mon 13 Nov 2017, 1:13 pm

After the amount of disgruntled posters in general I'm not so sure the knives wouldn't be out after a defeat to this Australia side even given the amazing run of results from jones. I'm always of the opinions that you play your next game to win but that doesn't mean you can't integrate players into the side. The amount of changes to the side the fact it was the first game and a bit of ring rust and to be honest the fact we never looked like losing does funny things to a side. Everyone will know that Australia pose a huge threat to us but I want to see some of the players get a chance to bed in.

I do feel jones will start his lions this coming week Marler back in for genge Farrell and Itoje back. I hope he gives slade another run as even under par and seemingly playing for his place he ok.

Daly must be feeling a bit pressured if may is back.

by BamBam Mon 13 Nov 2017, 1:19 pm

Would think Brown is out so Watson to FB and May/Daly on the wings

Teo has been called up too, interesting to see whether he comes in

by propdavid_london Mon 13 Nov 2017, 1:26 pm

Might just be the larger group coming together and getting an injury assessment on all players.

by propdavid_london Mon 13 Nov 2017, 1:29 pm

I am sure others have mentioned it but what I feel we lacked was that physical presence from midfield - or the ability to bring on that physicality.
Against Argentina who was hitting the line hard and direct! If Teo is fit and able then he would be an excellent addition.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 13 Nov 2017, 1:33 pm

Te'o is still recovering so won't be considered. Mercer may come into consideration but probably not.

by propdavid_london Mon 13 Nov 2017, 1:43 pm

Balls....

by propdavid_london Mon 13 Nov 2017, 1:44 pm

So it will be our light and nimble midfield vs the Australian big fella's - Isn't this a bit of a role reversal!

by hugehandoff Mon 13 Nov 2017, 3:13 pm

time for Brad Barritt maybe Whistle

by lostinwales Mon 13 Nov 2017, 4:17 pm

propdavid_london wrote:So it will be our light and nimble midfield vs the Australian big fella's - Isn't this a bit of a role reversal!

Underhill solves. (Nice to have a variation to Itoje being the answer to all rugby related problems)

I do feel JJ is a little distance from his very best at the moment. Interesting that he was subbed with Slade moving over. I do think it is tricky for backs to make a statement as it can happen that they don't actually get many chances, so if they fluff a couple it is very visible.

by BamBam Mon 13 Nov 2017, 4:18 pm

Aussie midfield isn't going to have a hope with Underhill/Itoje/Robshaw all covering

by lostinwales Mon 13 Nov 2017, 5:28 pm

Our biggest headache with 'Austraya' has generally been Folau, who isn't playing.

We are generally very good vs Oz. For all the lack of bite and inspiration in the Argentinian game there was no point at which Argentina actually threatened to take the lead, and there is no reason why we can't stifle the wallabies too, although they always tend to find a way to the try line at some point. As long as we can overpower Oz in the front 5 we can squeeze their back row and stop them getting space out wide.

Nice to see EJ saying he hopes they bring their best game. It will be interesting as ever.

by SecretFly Mon 13 Nov 2017, 7:03 pm

Christ, does this PC thing ever lie the f**K down?

First Eddie Jones doesn't apologise and says he is right to be frustrated...then the 'Please think about the Children' Thought Police from the RFU or some such other governance body reminded him that he has mis-thought the episode and really needs to make a very public apology for getting a little angry in front of the cameras. "It's not acceptable" to be a normal, passionate humanbeing who maybe says f**k sometimes when watching sport.

Children, never swear when watching sport!!! - it is sub-human 'emotionalism' and you may be executed by firing squad for doing so.

by Geordie Mon 13 Nov 2017, 9:59 pm

I just want to see Underhill smash the sh1t out of that cocky tw@t Hooper!!!

by lostinwales Mon 13 Nov 2017, 11:05 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:I just want to see Underhill smash the sh1t out of that cocky tw@t Hooper!!!

Which begs the question. Which of these two excellent rugby players, Hooper and Sexton, has the most punchable face?

by yappysnap Tue 14 Nov 2017, 3:48 am

Sexton by a mile

Then O’Gara

by cascough Tue 14 Nov 2017, 8:06 am

SecretFly wrote:Christ, does this PC thing ever lie the f**K down?

First Eddie Jones doesn't apologise and says he is right to be frustrated...then the 'Please think about the Children' Thought Police from the RFU or some such other governance body reminded him that he has mis-thought the episode and really needs to make a very public apology for getting a little angry in front of the cameras. "It's not acceptable" to be a normal, passionate humanbeing who maybe says f**k sometimes when watching sport.

Children, never swear when watching sport!!! - it is sub-human 'emotionalism' and you may be executed by firing squad for doing so.

There's nothing PC about politeness.

In any case, is this a big deal? I don't think he felt he needed to apologise. I actually thought he was just joking and giving the journos something to laugh about.

by beshocked Tue 14 Nov 2017, 9:07 am

I think the outburst from Jones shows that he cares. If he's doing that vs Argentina imagine what he'll be like vs his country of birth.

no 7 & 1/2 the way you describe the players you'd think most of them are rookies.

It was some of the more senior players who didn't have the dynamism needed.

I'd like to see Underhill show more than just tackling vs Australia though.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 14 Nov 2017, 9:16 am

Why? I just acknowledge that a team which hasn't played together in months and has a number of new combos will sometimes take time to click. Hence when talking about new players being put into the team I'd always prefer they were given a few games before they are discarded.

by SecretFly Tue 14 Nov 2017, 9:31 am

cascough wrote:

There's nothing PC about politeness.

In any case, is this a big deal? I don't think he felt he needed to apologise. I actually thought he was just joking and giving the journos something to laugh about.

There is everything PC about politeness in this age, cascough. And it isn't funny and it's a big deal. Cool

If you want to be polite, that's your prerogative and right to be so. If someone else has a more acerbic character by nature, then they have a right to be so too - the polite people don't own the Personality Rule Book. Wink

Now, if someone is impolite then of course you have a right to keep a million miles away from them, disown them, not do any business with them, call them a**holes etc, etc.... but the impolite **hole should still have the right to shout "F**king idiots" during a big hot and tense sporting occasion without the need to publically apologise for the moment of passion.
You are right, it should have been no big deal - but somebody ordered him to apologise - thus my comments now that the order to comply with PCism from his bosses is a big deal.

by Scottrf Tue 14 Nov 2017, 9:35 am

Being asked to apologise is absolutely moronic.

by beshocked Tue 14 Nov 2017, 9:40 am

The way you talk you'd think England had 10 changes in the starting XV and the players had never played together before.

You don't get it do you? Cole and Hartley - two of our weakest performers in our pack are two of the most experienced players in England. Not a new combo that.

If England start with a front five of

Mako,George,Cole,Itoje,Lawes I will be much happier.

I'd start Williams at TH vs Samoa.

I am interested to see if Jones sticks with Joseph or not at 13. He was probably the weakest player in the backline.

Whilst I do think Slade deserves another chance I believe Ford,Farrell and Slade would mean a lack of power.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 14 Nov 2017, 9:45 am

As discussed hartley had a good game. Cole was quiet. But yes there were a number of changes in the team and the first game of the season. I would make changes and I think jones will bring back some of the lions.

This is a must win game in your eyes yet you're talking of giving full debuts to unproven starters (your words). I go back to consistency of argument with you beshocked ie you have none you just switch to suit.

by beshocked Tue 14 Nov 2017, 10:10 am

Low standards - that's what you have no 7 & 1/2.

Our front five wasn't good enough and didn't give England a good enough platform. It's why I want to energise it.

Okay so what are my risky selections that have you worried?

I think it's worse not to make the necessary changes.

Is the front five I'd recommend really that ambitious? 3 players who play their club rugby together? All 5 players experienced in winning big games?

I wouldn't call my selection very risky. It's putting in 2 superior players, retaining 2 form players and giving Cole one more chance because he's experienced and H.Williams isn't ready yet.

by cascough Tue 14 Nov 2017, 10:16 am

Who ordered him to apologise? He said it was his mum. I thought he was joking with the whole thing.

As usual with Jones, he wants to talk about anything but how under par his team were. He's not daft.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 14 Nov 2017, 10:19 am

I just tend not to deal with hyperbole.
Hey like I've said in a couple of threads I would.expect a few changes but Id like some of the new combos and players to be given a few games to bed in. I'm. Not overly concerned with your picks just picking up your lack of consistency in your arguments. You say this is a must win game yet you're talking of starting unproven players. Personally.I'm fine with that but you've been extremely clear in the past that you find that a no no under any circumstances.

by beshocked Tue 14 Nov 2017, 10:31 am

cascough true it's smart. Jones is also not getting drawn into an argument with Cheika. Takes the pressure off himself too by focusing on his outburst.

no 7 & 1/2 how is it a lack of consistency? I want England to beat the Aussies. It's stronger than the front five selected vs Argentina.

? You make no sense again.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 14 Nov 2017, 10:36 am

Your lack if consistency. Don't give full.debuts against top teams when there's pressure for a result. Now you said this game is must win and you're giving full.debuts to.williams george (in your own words not mine an unproven starter for England). Your own argument in the past is that this should never be done. Now I fully appreciate there's nuanced argument for a number of things around three situations but again you were very define about this point in the past.

by SecretFly Tue 14 Nov 2017, 10:42 am

cascough wrote:Who ordered him to apologise?

Oh...wait a sec............... I have it here in my files somewhere.......just a moment......

Yes, just as I thought.

It was Blazer Personage 36J9B48 BBX from section C, subsection T of the Official Pronouncements Department. It woz him what wrote the missive demanding that said sundry offensive comment (Category 4B) was to be hereforewiththereforewith removed, obscured, dispensed with and stricken from the tongue of said personage named Head Coach on or not later than said day of reckoning to be outlined above in specific time and date stamp! Wink

Signed Willy Wonka.

by beshocked Tue 14 Nov 2017, 10:57 am

I didn't say Williams.... I said start him vs Samoa with Cole on last chance saloon vs the Aussies.

Starting George vs Australia is not particularly risky at all. You are making out as if George is some sort of no cap/1 cap rookie which is just wrong.

If you don't understand the difference between starting a no cap rookie vs France away and a relatively experienced hooker at home vs the Aussies with 2 of his club mates in the front five - well I can't help you.

You'd think that George has never played or won a game at Twickenham.... the way you talk about it....

It's not the same thing.

by cascough Tue 14 Nov 2017, 12:15 pm

SecretFly wrote:
cascough wrote:Who ordered him to apologise?

Oh...wait a sec............... I have it here in my files somewhere.......just a moment......

Yes, just as I thought.

It was Blazer Personage 36J9B48 BBX from section C, subsection T of the Official Pronouncements Department. It woz him what wrote the missive demanding that said sundry offensive comment (Category 4B) was to be hereforewiththereforewith removed, obscured, dispensed with and stricken from the tongue of said personage named Head Coach on or not later than said day of reckoning to be outlined above in specific time and date stamp!

Signed Willy Wonka.

You said earlier that someone ordered him to apologise. I thought you must have know this for a fact.

I just assumed he was joking with the whole thing and was using it to be light hearted and deflect.

by lostinwales Tue 14 Nov 2017, 12:20 pm

First rule when it comes to EJ. Never trust anything he says in press conferences.

2nd rule, he always finds a couple of words to pull attention onto him and away from the players. He is very efficient at doing this.

by SecretFly Tue 14 Nov 2017, 12:26 pm

Well cascough, my last word on the issue is that I think by examining the headings about him apologising seemed to suggest to me anyway that the man was got at by some people in head office frantic about image and apologies and bad language and all that stuff the world seems to be overly sensitive to right now.
So no, I didn't think it was a joke, I thought he was told to go out and apologise. A grown man apologising for a little oversight at a game (that was made into a big issue by the media anyway) is to me lamentable and laughable.

But you might be right, maybe he was just joking about the apology. That would be a whole other reaction from me and I'd be extremely offended by him making fun of an apology! mad

by **LondonTiger** Tue 14 Nov 2017, 12:40 pm

I thought it was at his mother's instigation?

by lostinwales Tue 14 Nov 2017, 12:40 pm

SecretFly wrote:Well cascough, my last word on the issue is that I think by examining the headings about him apologising seemed to suggest to me anyway that the man was got at by some people in head office frantic about image and apologies and bad language and all that stuff the world seems to be overly sensitive to right now.
So no, I didn't think it was a joke, I thought he was told to go out and apologise. A grown man apologising for a little oversight at a game (that was made into a big issue by the media anyway) is to me lamentable and laughable.

But you might be right, maybe he was just joking about the apology. That would be a whole other reaction from me and I'd be extremely offended by him making fun of an apology!

He may well have been asked, but I suspect he is then using this as an excuse to turn attention onto him and away from the team as usual. He is after all a cunning barsteward

by No 7&1/2 Tue 14 Nov 2017, 12:45 pm

Just quoting your own words back beshocked as you said he's not a proven starter for England. If we can both agree there is no one reason to stop a debut in any one game that's a good thing.

by BamBam Tue 14 Nov 2017, 2:52 pm

Genge, Kruis and Lozowski sent back to their clubs apparently

Marler and May in the 25 man squad

by propdavid_london Tue 14 Nov 2017, 2:59 pm

Kruis was average, Genge wasn't his bulldozing self - surprised Loz got sent back!

Marler for Genge is the logical.
I guess Itoji will play for Kruis.
And I suppose that Slade and Joseph will get another chance at 13 with Farrell at 12.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 14 Nov 2017, 3:04 pm

Just a question of whether the returnee s leap frog the others or start on the bench.

by Scottrf Tue 14 Nov 2017, 3:05 pm

Farrell will surely leapfrog the poor Slade.

by beshocked Tue 14 Nov 2017, 3:08 pm

Yes no 7 & 1/2 George has never started for England. That's not exactly a secret. Doesn't mean he's inexperienced.

Your way of doing things is recklessly starting players at poor moments and failing to start players at the right moments.

It's about balance, something you do not seem to understand.

Again, you're the one who didn't want Itoje to start for England.

If things were done your way, George would never start for England either. Something Jones and you seem to have in common.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 14 Nov 2017, 3:13 pm

Again just your own words about him being an inexperienced starter.
Seeing as this is a must win game for you I just assumed you'd be cautious.

Wish you'd go back to read and understand past points about george. Seems yu are unwilling or unable though so fair enough.

by beshocked Tue 14 Nov 2017, 3:28 pm

I don't understand what you are trying to say.

It's simple - George should start for England vs Australia. It is irrelevant whether he's an inexperienced starter or not because this will be mitigated for the reasons I've already said.

It's a must win game so you pick George to try and win the game.

I've already explained to you why it's not particularly risky to start George - not my fault if you can't see the logic of my argument.

1) At Home.
2) He's played many games at Twickenham and won.
3) Has played for England quite a few times albeit as someone coming on.
4) He has big match experience as a starter (Lions and big title matches)
5) He has shown at both club level and international level he can play for 60 + mins
6) If Mako and Itoje are picked it will be with 2 of his club mates for extra familiarity.

Which points are you having difficulty understanding?

by No 7&1/2 Tue 14 Nov 2017, 3:30 pm

Ewells back in for Kruis so maybe a slight question as to whether Itoje or Lawes are being considered at 6?

by No 7&1/2 Tue 14 Nov 2017, 3:33 pm

I understand all that beshocked and it continues to be a point I try to make with you. Ie it's much better to be honest about your reasons rather than make them up to suit at the time as they come back to bite you as was he case with Nowell and Itoje s debut and now george vs australia. If we can move past the silly rule which never was ie full debuts vs certain teams or in must win games can't happen I can stop bringing up your inconsistency.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 14 Nov 2017, 3:35 pm

England Rugby wrote:England have named 25 players who could be selected for the 2017 Old Mutual Wealth Series game against Australia on Saturday 18 November which kicks off at 3pm and is live on Sky Sports.

Eddie Jones' side beat Argentina 21-8 in the first of three fixtures in November at Twickenham Stadium last weekend.

Ahead of the return of the Premiership this weekend, Tom Dunn, Piers Francis, Ellis Genge, Nick Isiekwe, George Kruis, Alex Lozowski, Zach Mercer, Marcus Smith and Denny Solomona have all returned to their clubs.

England are looking for a fifth straight win against Australia since their last defeat in October 2015.

Backs

Fullbacks

Mike Brown (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby).

Inside backs

Danny Care (Harlequins), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Forwards

Back five

Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby).

Front row

Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs).

Players released back to their clubs:

Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby), Piers Francis (Northampton Saints), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby), Marcus Smith (Harlequins), Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks).

*Ben Te'o (Worcester Warriors) will remain in camp until Wednesday

by beshocked Tue 14 Nov 2017, 3:40 pm

Oh for gods sake - we are going around in circles.

Can you not understand the difference between Itoje's debut, Nowell's debut and potentially George's first start?

NO? I keep explaining it.

Nowell was a rookie, his first cap, away from home, first game of the 6 nations. Had little big match experience.

This was a big risk. It was a big risk that failed. If it was a big risk that succeeded, things might well have been different but it didn't. It was still a gamble.

There is consistency. It is not my fault if you ignore the consistency.

The risk of starting George is much lower. Is it really that hard to understand? I wouldn't even call it much of a gamble to start him to be honest for the reasons I've said.

My whole point has always been about trying to minimise risk but also look to win.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 14 Nov 2017, 3:44 pm

I wouldn't call george playing a gamble to be honest. But you have recently said that he needs to start to prove he can for England. That was one of your reasons as to why he needed to oust hartley. Just using your own argument against you really. Similar to Itoje where it was perfectly right and fair.for him t start in startling similar circumstances to Nowell. As I said several times just say you don't rate this player because x y and z and why you rate another. Saying.it's because you felt debuts shouldn't be given in must win games against top opposition was always going to come back and bite you.

by Scottrf Tue 14 Nov 2017, 3:45 pm

One thread on Hartley vs George please.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 14 Nov 2017, 3:49 pm

I've gone back. I will be annoyed if slade doesn't get a second start this week. We've got to give players an opportunity of games not constant threat when they're bedding in.

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