England Versus Australia 18th November 2017 3pm k.o.

First topic message reminder :

A resurgent Wallabies arrive in town with a great opportunity to halt their run of defeats to England. They are in much better current form and are looking sharp. EJs is trying to test out a few new players and rotate his Lions with a long term RWC view. He has said he will take the odd defeat along the way if it helps develop the side longer term. I think this Sat could be one of those defeats.

I do agree with seeing how some different players cope and do not disagree with his approach. Therefore, we need to see Williams, George, Watson (at 15) all start. If Teo was fit I would also go Farrell at 10 and Teo at 12 with Slade at 13 (deserves 1 more go despite being poor on Sat).  

Once these AIs are over then I think the time for experimenting is done and we then play each match as if it is our last. This will enable the combinations to bed in and be battle hardened for RWC 2019.

Team: Watson, May, Joseph, Farrell, Daly; Ford, Youngs; M Vunipola, Hartley, Cole; Launchbury, Lawes; Robshaw, Underhill, Hughes.

Replacements: George, Marler, Williams, Itoje, Simmonds, Care, Slade, Rokoduguni.



Australia: 15 Kurtley Beale, 14 Marika Koroibete, 13 Tevita Kuridrani, 12 Samu Kerevi, 11 Reece Hodge, 10 Bernard Foley, 9 Will Genia; 1 Scott Sio, 2 Tatafu Polota-Nau, 3 Sekope Kepu, 4 Rob Simmons, 5 Adam Coleman, 6 Ned Hanigan, 7 Michael Hooper, 8 Sean McMahon
Replacements: 16 Stephen Moore, 17 Tom Robertson, 18 Allan Alaalatoa, 19 Matt Philip, 20 Ben McCalman, 21 Lopeti Timani, 22 Nick Phipps, 23 Kurtley Beale, 24 Henry Speight*

*one to be omitted

Ford also missed some kicks in the Argentina game, and if my aunty had you know whats she'd be my uncle.

Argentina didn't make their kicks, England didn't lose the match and weren't really forced to extend themselves.

It's not that long ago that Launchbury and Lawes was seen as one of the top lock pairings in the world and England were seriously weakened without them. Pundits still talk about having Itoje at 6 mainly to try to get as much of our locking talent on the pitch as possible. I don't worry about the lock pairing.

The important move is restoring Farrell, meaning we should have a backline that is far more fluid than last week.

beshocked wrote:So you think having two players not known for their set piece will strengthen the set piece?

Good logic....  

Launchbury didn't win MOTM last week did he?


If Launchbury is such a good lock why was he left behind for the Lions?

It's funny that Jones has two Lions on the bench....

Only in your own mind is Launchbury the best lock we have.

He's currently 3rd at the moment.

We all have our views on who is the best lock. I wouldn't argue against Launchbury, he has got enough MOTM's in past games if that is how you wish to rate locks. I also would not hold Gatland's Lions selections against him, as we all know his hands were tied as far as one lock selection went.

Well Ford isn't the best kicker in England is he? Fortunately England have their best kicker back for Australia game.

So you aren't worried about Launchbury's lack of set piece proficiency? Okay fair enough.....


Please tell me the arguments again why you think Launchbury is classy....

He's a weaker scrummager, less proficient at the lineout.

Vs Argentina he made less tackles than some of the subs despite more minutes and made 1 carry for 0 gain.

Where would you say his strengths lie if it's not tackling,set piece or carrying?

Not sure he even makes more turnovers than someone like Itoje.

Why the feeling he's so good when other locks are more all round superior players?

I just don't get it.


What would you say Launchbury's unique selling points are vs Lawes and Itoje?

It's easy for me to make an argument for Lawes and Itoje but I'd like to hear yours.

beshocked wrote:If Launchbury is such a good lock why was he left behind for the Lions?

So that Gatland could give Alun Wyn Jones enough game time to play himself into contention, as any fule kno.

beshocked wrote:He's currently 3rd at the moment.

That's not what Eddie thinks, and Eddie has the huge advantage of being a) a top international coach and b) someone who has spent time with the players in the last two weeks. Kruis is out of form, and it's very possible - given his workload this season - that Itoje is or was showing signs of being close to burnout.

We don't know this stuff. The coaches do.

And last season it was Lawes who went to 6 in the scrum so that they could benefit from Itoje's power, not Launchbury. Ergo, Launchbury > Lawes in the scrum. Laucnhbury is not a lineout caller, but he's proficient enough as a jumper.

Poorfour Alun Wyn Jones wasn't the only lock on the lions though I know Gatland loved him.

It's fair to drop Kruis.

Not really telling me where you think Launchbury will add to the front five. He's not a superior scrummager to Itoje.

Itoje has had over 2 weeks break. It's Lawes who is more likely to be burnt out.

Well yes quite clearly I disagree on some England selections, that's now new is it?

If that's true seems bizarre to leave your best scrummager on the bench.....

Launchbury can jump yes but it's not as if he's known as a lineout stealer.

Start Itoje instead of Kruis and you strengthen the front five.

Oh and we know Launchbury is given MOTM awards in dodgy circumstances like that England vs Australia game.
Oh and Itoje has been in better form than Launchbury too.

Launch has got to be in to carry hard close to the breakdown. Last week we really missed Billys ability to generate quick ball from slow ball near the ruck.
It's actually why is want George to start this week.
Looking at the Art game only Mako of the front row seemed to do any decent carrying. Only Lawes carried for the 2nd row and only Hughes for the back row. 3 out of 8 people seemed to do most of the good carrying. It's not enough...we need to be able to speed up our ball to get Farrell and Ford on the front foot as we don't have anyone in the backs who is a crash ball merchant.
I fear if we get strangled like last week we will just shovel ball down the line and end up in touch.
In a way I think it's good Billy isn't playing as I fear we've become overly dependent on his carrying or threat.

Yeah if Launchbury picks up yet another motm as he's done consistently through the year it's a con.

There are a few comments from Clive woodward kicking about how Itoje george and williams should be starting as ais aren't for experimenting.

beshocked wrote:cascough not really. It's as simple as Argentina kicking better to improve.

Firstly, an opinion.

That's not simple. If it were, why does anyone miss kicks? Why are top class goal kickers considered so valuable?

Secondly, a fact.

They didn't kick them on the day. Their kicking was poor. A facet of Argentina's play was poor.

No 7&1/2 wrote:There are a few comments from Clive woodward kicking about how Itoje george and williams should be starting as ais aren't for experimenting.

? None of the people starting in their place are experimentations. The reverse would be experimenting. Bizarre comment.

beshocked wrote:Poorfour Alun Wyn Jones wasn't the only lock on the lions though I know Gatland loved him.

It's fair to drop Kruis.

Not really telling me where you think Launchbury will add to the front five. He's not a superior scrummager to Itoje.

Itoje has had over 2 weeks break. It's Lawes who is more likely to be burnt out.

Well yes quite clearly I disagree on some England selections, that's now new is it?

If that's true seems bizarre to leave your best scrummager on the bench.....

Launchbury can jump yes but it's not as if he's known as a lineout stealer.

Start Itoje instead of Kruis and you strengthen the front five.

Oh and we know Launchbury is given MOTM awards in dodgy circumstances like that England vs Australia game.
Oh and Itoje has been in better form than Launchbury too.

Itoje had a late fitness test and was expected to miss the game, hence why he is on the bench. Conspiracy theories are fun, but Launchbury isn't quite a national treasure just yet.

Paraphrased slightly but here's a link
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-5090947/Itoje-bench-England-m-baffled-Jones-call.html

I'm not sure I get the AI's are not for experimentation thing. Biggest is the World Cup. Then 6 Nations. If AIs aren't for experimentation what is? He's also not experimenting at all. I think the Itoje selection is all he's referring to and apparently that may be due to fitness.

I just think he struggled with what to write about this week.

Trivia time: Dan Cole and Ben Youngs have been on the winning side against Australia in nine Test Matches (Cole has 2 with the Lions, 7 with England, while Youngs has 1 with the Lions, and 8 with England). I think that's the most wins against the Wallabies for any players in the Home Nations player. They've both played them thirteen times, which might also be a record.

Just listened to Ben Kay and Austin Healey talking about the lack of leadership in the squad, a point which Healey also makes in the Telegraph. Cole and Youngs have enviable records against tomorrow's opposition but I never really think of either as leaders. Cole has 78 caps and 72 starts. He hasn't often been on the bench, so he is one of the few consistent players we've had over the Johnson-Lancaster-Jones coaching era. By contrast, Youngs has 73 caps and 55 starts, while Lawes - who was also in the side when Cole & Youngs got their first victories over Australia in 2010 - has 61 caps and 41 starts. That's not just rotation; for periods in theirr career, Lawes and Youngs weren't first choice.

Other players in that 2010 team who looked like they would kick on to lengthy England careers include Ashton, Foden & Armitage. For different reasons, none of them did.

On the positive side, some of the players who have become first choice picks almost since debut - Farrell, Itoje & Billy Vunipola - do seem to inspire their team mates. Whether we are going to have enough across the whole squad by 2019 is still uncertain, and probably a reason why Hartley, Robshaw and Brown have been hard to shift from their starting positions.

(More boring trivia: Chris Robshaw has 57 caps and 57 starts. he has never come on from the bench in a Test)

cascough it's not really an opinion that Argentina need to kick better - 6 missed kicks is awful.


To be fair Launchbury hasn't started every single game for Jones so doesn't qualify for deity/national treasure status yet...

Even Brown's national treasure status seems to be on the wane after his injury.

To be fair if Itoje has a knock then yes he shouldn't start....

Still interested to see if May has truly recovered though....


greenandpleasantland totally agree.


Rugby fan both Youngs and Cole, need to up their game vs Australia.


Joseph is another other than the usual suspects who needs to up their game badly. IMO the luckiest back to retain their starting spot.

beshocked wrote:cascough it's not really an opinion that Argentina need to kick better - 6 missed kicks is awful.

You read what you want to read. It's an opinion that to kick better is simple.

It's a fact Argentina kicked poorly, ergo it's a fact a facet of Argentina's play was poor.

I'm gonna finish now, as this thread is about Australia. Argentina were bad, they're a bad team. They didn't deserve the win or anything close to it. England beat them even playing within themselves, IMO.

Lawes was a long term sick note. The suggestion was he played so much on the edge that he hurt himself at regular intervals. He seems to have finally got over that

Ashton, Foden and Armitage all had decent spells as first choice. Foden was arguably our best player for a few years until injury took its toll. Ashton burned bright for a spell then ran out of tries and drifted out of contention. Armitage should have done better and had some good spells but seemed to have some attitude issues.

Talking of attitude - Jones really seems to want the right kind of abrasive players around the squad - hence Hartley and Brown's longevity

Armitage could have been so good. Del on that is.

cascough I am not saying it's simple to magically become better at kicking.

I am saying it's one of those problems that should be easier to fix than let's say improving a player's ball carrying or increasing a player's natural speed.

Place kicking is very important obviously but I personally think it's easier to fix something like that.

Plus it's also easier to improve your place kicking if you average around the 20% mark.... than let's say mid 70s.....

Wow its like Groundhog day reading this thread.....

Anyone know what Blake Enever is like? Adam Coleman is a late withdrawal

GeordieFalcon wrote:Wow its like Groundhog day reading this thread.....

Foe can solve, but it does make the threads look strange

Surprised that the bookmakers have England as such strong favourites for tomorrow.

It's a disjointed England against a highly-motivated Australian side who are unbeaten in their last seven; a precious win over New Zealand included in that total.

Could go either way tomorrow, I reckon, a real 50-50 encounter.

Duty281 wrote:Surprised that the bookmakers have England as such strong favourites for tomorrow.

Bookmakers create their odds on the amount of bets placed. the high odds for england reflect england fans placing bets on england to win.

Rugby Fan wrote:Trivia time: Dan Cole and Ben Youngs have been on the winning side against Australia in nine Test Matches (Cole has 2 with the Lions, 7 with England, while Youngs has 1 with the Lions, and 8 with England). I think that's the most wins against the Wallabies for any players in the Home Nations player. They've both played them thirteen times, which might also be a record.

Actually, looks like both Alun Wyn Jones and Gethin Jenkins have faced Australia fifteen times in their career. AWJ has 12 with Wales, and 3 with the Lions (three wins); Jenkins all with Wales, and one win. Leigh Halfpenny has faced them fourteen times (11 Wales, 3 Lions, 2 wins).

Australians seem a bit down on losing Adam Coleman. Hope Enever doesn't go on to have a blinder. A lot of England pundits seem wary about this game, which is largely down to the Argentina performance and Australia's win over New Zealand. Not sure how useful those two data points are in isolation. I hope there's something to he post-match talk about England being heavy-legged against Argentina through being over-trained. I also hope that training scedule is good judgement by the coaches, rather than an example of Eddie Jones' obsessiveness.

This will be England's sternest test yet as I think that the Aussie backs have the edge and seem on great form while England, looking great on paper, clearly unsettled at the moment.

Rugby Fan wrote:Anyone know what Blake Enever is like? Adam Coleman is a late withdrawal

He won't cause much trouble. Until being selected for this tour, which no one saw coming, he's only been viewed as a handy squad lock at super rugby level. I think he played most games for the brumbies this year gone but always off the bench. He couldn't get past Arnold or Carter to get a regular start.

I think 4,5 and 6 will be our struggle tonight and for the rest of the tour, plus we are playing McMahon at 8 who is a terrific player but is really another 7. Longer term we'll be right but we've run out of heavy bodies for now.

TJ wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Surprised that the bookmakers have England as such strong favourites for tomorrow.

 Bookmakers create their odds on the amount of bets placed.  the high odds for england reflect england fans placing bets on england to win.

Actually it’s the contrary for this game. On oddschecker 48% have bet on Oz compared to 40% for England

It's gonna be wet and miserable..... Just the way I like it!

England could have scored there but for a knock-on called when it looked like it was knocked back by the Aussie tackler ...

Just spotted by WG too .... bad call should have played on and reviewed ... cost England 4 points

Sio is going to deck every scrum, come on ref!

Elbow on floor every time ...

A lot of little differences from last week. Biggest is that may is so good at the kick chase. Important in this weather.

Vunipola may be costing us at the scrum here.

I see Itoje has come on for Underhill. Interesting they went for him rather than Simmonds - who you'd have thought would be more mobile

Looking like it's Lawes going to 6 his time.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Looking like it's Lawes going to 6 his time.

Yeah after I wrote the above I figured it might well be to bolster the scrum if things not going quite right there

Hands on the ground before that turnover ...

Hmm. 1 he caught it before it hit the ground. 2 it's a pen before that.

Hopefully Foley having another off day with the boot

And Vunipola is hitting us hard at he scrum.

Brilliant by Itoje.

Yep 100% wrong by the ref - and that's the 3rd time a player has been taken in the air ...

Good question by hin there though.

Ref has no idea about the scrum I'm afraid. Good call on the try though, I didn't see that.

I'm still jot sure having Daly at wing us good after that. His contesting of the high ball is iffy

Well he's rubbish at spotting taking out in the air and has called 2 knock-ons that weren't but well spotted for the offside ...

Ha.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm still jot sure having Daly at wing us good after that. His contesting of the high ball is iffy

You have to wonder if the red card last year is in the back of his mind