Ireland 6 Nations chat

First topic message reminder :

Geoff on the Ulster thread created a clever analysis on squad depth and I am taking a crack at a similar one for Ireland in advance of the 6 nations:

My assumptions are based on a squad of 36 (not the 40 Joe named last year). Players categories into 4 ratings:

World class = top three in position in world, and/or Lions test starter
International class = would make the team for other tier 1 nations
Below international class - would not make the team for other tier 1 nations
Exciting prospect - show potential to be a real asset

Ideally we have one world class and 2 international class per position.

TH (3)
World class - Furlong
International class - Ryan
Exciting prospect - Porter

Assessment - Drop off after Furlong, but not as steep as with hooker

Hooker (3)
International class - Best, Cronin (instead of Tracy)
Below international class - Herring

Assessment - Our weakest forward position, with a big drop off after Best

LH (3)
World class - McGrath (Lions bench for all three tests, scrapes in here)
International class - Healy, Kilcoyne

Assessment - Most consistently strong position in front row, all three are great players and Healy may well rereach his world class heights in 2018. Add in Moore and its a great position for us

Lock (5)
International class - Henderson, Toner
Below international class - Dillane, Roux (instead of Treadwell)
Exciting prospect - Ryan

Assessment - good first team pair, with some exciting prospects coming through.

Flankers (6)
World class - POM
International class - VDF, Murphy (Instead of TOD, Ruddock and SOB out due to injury)
Exciting prospect - Leavy

Assessment - embarrasment of riches!

No. 8 (2)
International class - Stander, Conan
Assessment - Very strong, with multiple flankers also able to play there

Scrumhalf (3)
World class - Murray
Below international class - Marmion, McGrath

Assessment - big drop off after Murray. Marmion/McGrath neither have been able to fully translate provincial form to ireland

Flyhalf (3)
World class - Sexton
Below international class - Keatley
Exciting prospect - Carberry

Assessment - Sexton staying fit is essential to winning in Twickenham, the drop off after that is huge.

Centers (5)
International class - Henshaw, Aki,
Below international class -  Farrell
Exciting prospect -Scannell (Instead of Ringrose and McCloskey)

Assessment - strong, if not the most exciting group of players.

Wings (5)
International class - Earls
Below international class - Conway, McFadden (Instead of Byrne, Sweetnam)
Exciting prospect - Stockdale

Assessment - some exciting young players coming through, but think Earls will start

Fullback (2)
International class - Kearney
Exciting prospect - Larmour

Assessment - Kearney continues to show his class in the big games and will start 3/4 of the 6 nations, I think Larmour has a good shot of starting the others. TOH if not.

In recent form I'd have Kearney over Zebo any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Unfortunately we have no Sunday games this season.

eirebilly wrote:Fly,

I mean this with the greatest of respect but you really do speak some guff at times

No the guff has been the backs in an Ireland shirt that haven't exactly been living up to the titles these last number of years, billy.  That's the guff, and yet they are eulogised here and damn anyone that steps away from the carefully prepared narratives of adoration.

We can blame the Head coach - I more than anyone in this forum do.  All the time, I say I want us playing a different way and actually getting our backs to play a game designed for backs.  So I owe nothing when reality strikes to this forum. I have my game style preference. 

All that I've said to you this time is Nope - McFadden is not excess baggage going on form leading into this 6N.  No he is not a lesser player in practical on-field play than the players you mentioned at this point in time.  He deserves his place.  Zebo would have deserved a place........ in the squad...both of them.  The numbers in squads don't need to be religiously observed.  

You try to tell the truth as you see it in this place and you get a few pies thrown in your face.   But that's why I love the old place...lots of tolerance for the alternative view

rodders wrote:In recent form I'd have Kearney over Zebo any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Unfortunately we have no Sunday games this season.

You do realise its 2018 now and not 2012 rodders?

eirebilly wrote:

rodders wrote:In recent form I'd have Kearney over Zebo any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Unfortunately we have no Sunday games this season.

You do realise its 2018 now and not 2012 rodders?

Kearney was past it in 2012 billy, he's got a second wind.

All world cup winning 15 since year dot have been very experienced players. Percy Montgomery for example was a dinosaur when he won the world cup final.

Is Paddy Jackson injured?

I'd have though he'd be pushing Sexton for the No10 shirt by now?

As a England fan I don't want to facing Sexton at Twickers on the final day.

TightHEAD wrote:Is Paddy Jackson injured?

I'd have though he'd be pushing Sexton for the No10 shirt by now?

As a England fan I don't want to facing Sexton at Twickers on the final day.

Paddy has some off-field affairs.

Just googled him to see if he was indeed injured, I had no idea that was going on!

TightHEAD wrote:Just googled him to see if he was indeed injured, I had no idea that was going on!

I think its safe to say he won't be taking part in the 6N anytime soon.

I doubt he will play for Ireland again. I see James Ryan is going to start v France.

Collapse2005 wrote:I doubt he will play for Ireland again. I see James Ryan is going to start v France.

Is he? with Dev or Henderson?

With Henderson. Apparently France have norovirus or something similar now. It is being set up as an easy win. Will believe it when I see it.

What else do you know Collapse?
Keep us in the loop!

Collapse2005 wrote:With Henderson. Apparently France have norovirus or something similar now. It is being set up as an easy win. Will believe it when I see it.

Glad it's with Henderson, I like Dev he's a giant nuisance if a man, but Ryan and Henderson are, in my mind a bit more dynamic

Have to agree that Henderson and Ryan offer more around the park than Toner but Toner will also be missed. A very under-rated player in my mind. He does loads of work around the ground as well.

eirebilly wrote:Have to agree that Henderson and Ryan offer more around the park than Toner but Toner will also be missed. A very under-rated player in my mind. He does loads of work around the ground as well.

If POM is picked I think Ryan and Henderson should be ok but if there is no POM then Toner will be missed at the lineout and maybe around the place. I think Toner has been very good for Ireland. Better than plenty of locks we have had in the past IMO.

Ireland's lineout stats last year were very good in the 6 nations. 90% which was third behind Wales and England I think.

I think we are building for the RWC so the result isn't really that important.

I do think too many are writing France off.

rodders wrote:I think we are building for the RWC so the result isn't really that important.

I do think too many are writing France off.

I think people will be surprised with how bad they are.

rodders wrote:I think we are building for the RWC so the result isn't really that important.

I do think too many are writing France off.

Who is? Not over on that score prediction thread, they're not.

I think to say France have a real chance of killing our ambitions off in the first game is to perhaps be guilty of writing off our own players and their abilities, rodders. So it's a Catch 22 for me.

I remember looking at our squad sheet for the tournament a while back and being genuinely impressed by the names on the sheet. For the first time I think in years I realised just how potent our players have become as a group. There is hardly a player in the line-up that you'd have major worries about and more of them that you could be very excited about. And I said to the room that Ireland are running out of excuses now for not winning titles.

I personally have to keep that belief up now. I look at all teamsheets now and Ireland don't have to bow to any of those other lists.

VDF also looks like he will be 7. I think we will win, but by less than 9. France away is just such a mental block for us. Is this the first tier 1 game that Toner didn't start under Schmidt when being fit?

Yes aparently it will be VdF at 7.

VDF is very fortunate to be getting the start. Leavy has been playing like a man possessed this season and has really kicked on to another level. His performance against Munster in Thomond over christmas should have been enough to earn a start consider his opposition that day.

I'm going to miss Toner. Not his awkward ball carrying (that was never his strength) but lineouts, umph in the scrum, ruck clear outs he is very effective. Who will call the lineouts, Hendo or Ryan? A lot of responsibility if it is Ryan. Mind you with POM in the lineout and Murray also an option these days they should do fine.

Ireland had very good lineout stats, but the 10% that tended to go astray were usually in the attacking 3rd of the field which was always a real momentum killer.

France had terrible lineout stats last year so that's probably why Ryan gets the start. They only won 84% of their own line outs just marginally better than Italy.

We have to remember I suppose that now all these candidates are in camp together. So in relation to VDF/Leavy for example, well it's not a clear cut decision to pick an 'in form' player over a less in-form player at Provincial level. They're both in camp. The coaches will have watched them. They'll have their framework gameplans they want to work to and they'll have their preferred player to execute the gameplan for each game. Both players, because they are both in camp, will I'm sure be getting the best out of each other - which I think is going to push Ireland now to a new level, when the training field personnel are all of a higher and higher standard.

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote:I think we are building for the RWC so the result isn't really that important.

I do think too many are writing France off.

Who is?  Not over on that score prediction thread, they're not.

I think to say France have a real chance of killing our ambitions off in the first game is to perhaps be guilty of writing off our own players and their abilities, rodders.  So it's a Catch 22 for me.  

I remember looking at our squad sheet for the tournament a while back and being genuinely impressed by the names on the sheet.  For the first time I think in years I realised just how potent our players have become as a group.  There is hardly a player in the line-up that you'd have major worries about and more of them that you could be very excited about.  And I said to the room that Ireland are running out of excuses now for not winning titles.

I personally have to keep that belief up now.  I look at all teamsheets now and Ireland don't have to bow to any of those other lists.  

Don't think so Fly, having Wayne Barnes as a referee or touch judge is as valid an excuse this season as any other.

rodders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote:I think we are building for the RWC so the result isn't really that important.

I do think too many are writing France off.

Who is?  Not over on that score prediction thread, they're not.

I think to say France have a real chance of killing our ambitions off in the first game is to perhaps be guilty of writing off our own players and their abilities, rodders.  So it's a Catch 22 for me.  

I remember looking at our squad sheet for the tournament a while back and being genuinely impressed by the names on the sheet.  For the first time I think in years I realised just how potent our players have become as a group.  There is hardly a player in the line-up that you'd have major worries about and more of them that you could be very excited about.  And I said to the room that Ireland are running out of excuses now for not winning titles.

I personally have to keep that belief up now.  I look at all teamsheets now and Ireland don't have to bow to any of those other lists.  

Don't think so Fly, having Wayne Barnes as a referee or touch judge is as valid an excuse this season as any other.

He's not in Fra................................???  Tell me he hasn't last-minute replaced Nigel!!!!??  Tell me it ain't so!  Guns will be fuming!

But seriously for a sec............... does anyone know if we'll get Wayne as ref, and if so.................................... em............................ dread this.............................*covering my eyes*.............which game?

France team to face Ireland:
15. Geoffrey Palis (Castres)
14. Teddy Thomas (Racing 92)
13. Rémi Lamerat (Clermont Auvergne)
12. Henry Chavancy (Racing 92)
11. Virimi Vakatawa (Racing 92)
10. Matthieu Jalibert (Bordeaux-Bègles)
9. Maxime Machenaud (Racing 92)
1. Jefferson Poirot (Bordeaux-Bègles)
2. Guilhem Guirado (Toulon) (c)
3. Rabah Slimani (Clermont Auvergne)
4. Sébastien Vahaamahina (Clermont Auvergne)
5. Arthur Iturria (Clermont Auvergne)
6. Wenceslas Lauret (Racing 92)
7. Yacouba Camara (Montpellier)
8. Kévin Gourdon (La Rochelle)

Replacements:
16. Adrien Pelissié (Bordeaux-Bègles)
17. Dany Priso (La Rochelle)
18. Cedate Gomes Sa (Racing 92)
19. Paul Gabrillagues (La Rochelle)
20. Marco Tauleigne (Bordeaux-Bègles)
21. Antoine Dupont (Toulouse)
22. Anthony Belleau (Toulon)
23. Benjamin Fall (Montpellier)

Raka injured?

Yes

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote:I think we are building for the RWC so the result isn't really that important.

I do think too many are writing France off.

Who is?  Not over on that score prediction thread, they're not.

I think to say France have a real chance of killing our ambitions off in the first game is to perhaps be guilty of writing off our own players and their abilities, rodders.  So it's a Catch 22 for me.  

I remember looking at our squad sheet for the tournament a while back and being genuinely impressed by the names on the sheet.  For the first time I think in years I realised just how potent our players have become as a group.  There is hardly a player in the line-up that you'd have major worries about and more of them that you could be very excited about.  And I said to the room that Ireland are running out of excuses now for not winning titles.

I personally have to keep that belief up now.  I look at all teamsheets now and Ireland don't have to bow to any of those other lists.  

Don't think so Fly, having Wayne Barnes as a referee or touch judge is as valid an excuse this season as any other.

He's not in Fra................................???  Tell me he hasn't last-minute replaced Nigel!!!!??  Tell me it ain't so!  Guns will be fuming!

But seriously for a sec............... does anyone know if we'll get Wayne as ref, and if so.................................... em............................ dread this.............................*covering my eyes*.............which game?

Ireland v Scotland.

http://officiating.worldrugby.org/?page=appointments&id=58

IRELAND Squad to play France - Stade de France, Saturday 3rd February, 2018

15. Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 78 caps
14. Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 62 caps
13. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Leinster) 31 caps
12. Bundee Aki (Galwegians/Connacht) 2 caps
11. Jacob Stockdale (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 4 caps
10. Johnny Sexton (St Mary's College/Leinster) 68 caps
9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 59 caps

1. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 73 caps
2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) 106 caps (captain)
3. Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster) 19 caps
4. Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 34 caps
5. James Ryan (UCD/Leinster) 4 caps
6. Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 42 caps
7. Josh van der Flier (UCD/Leinster) 9 caps
8. CJ Stander (Shannon/Munster) 18 caps

Replacements
16. Sean Cronin (St Mary's College/Leinster) 56 caps
17. Jack McGrath (St Mary's College/Leinster) 42 caps
18. John Ryan (Cork Constitution/Munster) 11 caps
19. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 53 caps
20. Dan Leavy (UCD/Leinster) 4 caps
21. Luke McGrath (UCD/Leinster) 6 caps
22. Joey Carbery (Clontarf/Leinster) 6 caps
23. Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 32 caps

As expected:

Ireland (v France)

15. Rob Kearney
14. Keith Earls
13. Robbie Henshaw
12. Bundee Aki
11. Jacob Stockdale
10. Johnny Sexton
9. Conor Murray

1. Cian Healy
2. Rory Best (captain)
3. Tadhg Furlong
4. James Ryan
5. Iain Henderson
6. Peter O’Mahony
7. Josh van der Flier
8. CJ Stander

Replacements:

16. Sean Cronin
17. Jack McGrath
18. John Ryan
19. Devin Toner
20. Dan Leavy
21. Luke McGrath
22. Joey Carbery
23. Fergus McFadden

No complaints, pretty much the strongest 23 that could be picked.

Surprised not to see Keatley, Conway or Marmion on the bench.

Big call on James Ryan too.

Conway picked up an injury in training so will be out for a couple of weeks. McFadden is in flying form anyway.

OK fair enough.

Schmidt usually has a back up fullback option, so presumably Stockdale will cover otherwise he'll have to shuffle the midfield. Otherwise Earls to centre and Henshaw to XV.

It's a risky dynamic he has gone for.

carbery covers FB

Carbery to 15 I would have guessed

Super Ferg can cover 1-15. Baller.

A very solid starting 15.

For the bench.

Keatley has been in good form and I would say deserves to ahead of Carbery.

Toner is either someone that either starts or should not be in the team, cannot see him being an overly influential sub.

I would also have had James Ryan on the bench and Leavy starting.

As for McFadden, think I have said enough about him in the past...

If I were a Leinster fan, I would be very nervous about the amount of Leinster players in that team (14 from 23) with big games in Europe coming up after the 6N.

eirebilly wrote:A very solid starting 15.

For the bench.

Keatley has been in good form and I would say deserves to ahead of Carbery.

Toner is either someone that either starts or should not be in the team, cannot see him being an overly influential sub.

I would also have had James Ryan on the bench and Leavy starting.

As for McFadden, think I have said enough about him in the past...

McFadden would walk into the All Blacks team. Baller.

I agree on Keatley he has been one of Munster's best players this year, Conway too.

Delighted Earls is picked, big fan. Id say he will sore at least 1 try.

eirebilly wrote:If I were a Leinster fan, I would be very nervous about the amount of Leinster players in that team (14 from 23) with big games in Europe coming up after the 6N.

Ireland first Leinster second.

Good side. James Ryan, VDF and McFadden are the talking points.

I think Ryan will be a big improvement on Toner and might indicate that Ireland want to play a faster game.

I'd prefer Leavy to VDF but I can see VDF hunting down the French 10, Jellybear.

McFadden is a strange one. He's in decent form though and will be solid.

Same as usual from Ireland then. It'll be tight and fussy in the beginning. Heavy duty and bang bang...bang.........bang. Then hoping a little more room might open up sometime in the second half to let the loose cannon players (Cronin, Mad'n'BadMcFadd, Carbery etc) try their hand at getting some less impact driven tries.

I wish the chaps good speed on their mission to bring back a win AND a bonus point.

Anyone see the team announcement? Had to laugh. Schmidt described Stockdale and Earls as 'youth' on the wings and Kearney as 'old / experienced' at fullback. Keith Earls is 30, one year younger than Rob Kearney

Sin é wrote:Anyone see the team announcement? Had to laugh. Schmidt described Stockdale and Earls as 'youth' on the wings and Kearney as 'old / experienced' at fullback. Keith Earls is 30, one year younger than Rob Kearney

He plays young.  

It ain't Rocket Science, sin.  Rob plays grey stuff with maybe a pair of slippers during the half time break.

PS....... Earls has been telling Joe for a few years now that he's only 23.  Every time Joe asks - it's 23.  Don't be a cad, sin.  Keep his secret.

the-goon wrote:As expected:

Ireland (v France)

15. Rob Kearney
14. Keith Earls
13. Robbie Henshaw
12. Bundee Aki
11. Jacob Stockdale
10. Johnny Sexton
9. Conor Murray

1. Cian Healy
2. Rory Best (captain)
3. Tadhg Furlong
4. James Ryan
5. Iain Henderson
6. Peter O’Mahony
7. Josh van der Flier
8. CJ Stander

Replacements:

16. Sean Cronin
17. Jack McGrath
18. John Ryan
19. Devin Toner
20. Dan Leavy
21. Luke McGrath
22. Joey Carbery
23. Fergus McFadden

No complaints, pretty much the strongest 23 that could be picked.

No doubt what Ireland's tactics will be - that's an absolutely physically brutal Ireland team. Shame that Larmour isn't on the bench to offer an attacking threat - I can't really see what McFadden offers other than a bit of experience and versatility.  I suppose that sums up Schmidt as a coach!

This game is going to be utterly brutal.

I wonder what the French tactics will be. I truly hope they do not target Sexton in the same way he has been targeted in years gone by...

Nice looking Ireland side. I can see you being slight favourites for the title if you can keep that XV injury free.

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:carbery covers FB

yes I forgot about him.