England - Summer Tour to South Africa

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Emirates Airline Park, Johannesburg SkySports action
16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action




Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

TBC

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's one of those games hear where benefit goes to the baa baas.

Guess so yes ...

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Waterman pooly. Think it's her first crack at it so I'll give her a chance. She was rambling a bit at the start but being more pertinent now.

We'll see 7, she's rather annoying, although seems to know what she's talking about.

England's best player for a while. Just heard her say "started a bit waffly" talking off-mike, so she knows what she did wrong.

I remember greenwood when he started in the world cup. I rate him as one of the best now but hr was dreadful starting off. Not many of these guys get to start off in local radio and practice their craft.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Waterman pooly. Think it's her first crack at it so I'll give her a chance. She was rambling a bit at the start but being more pertinent now.

We'll see 7, she's rather annoying, although seems to know what she's talking about.

England's best player for a while. Just heard her say "started a bit waffly" talking off-mike, so she knows what she did wrong.

God did she! Didn't realise she was a player.

Is it 3 or 4 tries direct from Robshaw missing his tackle. Seriously just take him off.

Mercer off instead. I don't know why.

Finally the ref penalises England for not being 10m.

Robshaw did something good as well. He has looked out of place in this game. Not to his style at all

Don't understand taking 3 points ...

Afoa picked up Robshaw's leg in the first maul and Mercer's in the second. Do refs not call it anymore or was the rule removed?

Baa Baas being given too much leeway for me ... loads of pens being ignored

I can't believe how guff Robshaw has played, we've got more holes than Swiss cheese! The baabaa's team is a bit special mind what a back line.

The ref looks out of his depth, so rubbish.

We had to score twice there!

Same guy that didn't know the laws when reffing Wasps v Connaught

He's ignoring a lot. I think it's deliberate for the spectacle.

Maybe partly but he's a poor ref normally too

Robshaw missing yet another tackle leading to a try.

Forward pass now being ignored tho....

Pass not forwards?

Are the officials actually serious?

Yup it's forward. Like I said I'm sure it's just plating for the crowd....Still having a better game than Robshaw!

Yes Robshaw looks well off the pace - can't understand why he hasn't been subbed ...

Add lazy running to the list ...

Yes it's grating a bit now.

Pen under the posts if awarded but instead Ashton nearly scores at the other end due to the intercept from the delay in the 9 being able to pass - the occasion is no excuse for this officiating ...

Well lost now but I agree I don't think the choice the ref had made in relation to the match has aided it. Just play to the rules and the spirit of running rugby will come through anyway. Think was owens last year from memory saying I'm playing by the rules even if it is an exhibition.

Another forward pass at the end wraps up the match nicely.

Although Owens just called a knock-on "I think" ... surely not clear and obvious then?

So to wrap it up. Daly seems an option at 15 being involved a lot even if at 13 after 20 or so. Robshaw may have sketched a debut for shields. Honestly I rate him highly but I don't remember a worse game as an England player for anyone. Singleton seems a real option at hooker. Really solid in set piece amd picked some nice lines.

Robshaw certainly needs a rest at least - far from his best today. England defence was poor, but maybe not surprising given lack of time together. Baa Baas played their socks off with some fantastic offloading. Officials might as well not have been there.

Crazy game and a few positives to take out of it......I try not to get too disheartened or excited about performances in a Ba's game, it's not real rugby.

+ Daly was excellent throughout and is a key first team player, I hope at 13 or 15 and not wing
+ Curry was effective at the breakdown and physical, he looks like a starter in SA
+ Singleton was very good and a real option, Hartley should be worried
+ Subs went well, Wilson/Genge/Robson/Cips didn't shy away
+ Solomona - Love to see him and May on the wings, what a threat!

- Defence or lack of it
- Experienced players especially Robshaw, Sinks, Marler and Launchbury less so, not good enough

Harsh on sinckler and Marler. Solid in set piece.

Against a scratch Baa's outfit it's expected tbh. Did either add that much around the park?

1. Even with the fecal officiating England were bad. The Celts will be out in force tonight!
2. The baabaa line up was awesome, I mean what a back row of messam, Fernandez lobbe and tuperic and as for the toulon boys well, quality. I would hate to be in Fiji's group in the heat of Japan on solid grounds, I am looking forward to seeing them in action.
3. Robshaw was garbage, if he starts in sa then Jones will lose my support
4. piers Francis can't tackle along with many other fringe players.
5. I hate to say but lauchburys days are numbered as well as looks so slow. Mind you it was sevens out there and that's not his strength.
6. I thought also the irb wanted to get harsh on head shots but yet again poor trinder gets polaxed by a shoulder to the head, not even a quiet word or a tmo replay.
7. I thought the second half was a game of American football with any passes allowed ruined it me.
8. Curry was quite good as he was the only lad who was up for it and actually tackled around the legs.

Well now expecting a three nil bok wash with Robshaw at 7!

Made their tackles. Every time we had the ball they were fine. Not sure what more they can really add in a game like this.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Made their tackles. Every time we had the ball they were fine. Not sure what more they can really add in a game like this.

In an open game like this I would expect more from these guys, happy to disagree.

Important not to over react Yoda. No players are finished or sudden superstars after a Ba's game, it is what it is.

For the first test I'd be looking at:

1. Mako
2. George
3. Sinkler
4. Launchbury
5. Itoje
6. Robshaw/Wilson
7. Curry
8. Billy

9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. May
12. Farrell
13. Daly/Loz
14. Solomona
15. Brown/Daly

16. LCD 17. Williams 18. Genge 19. Isiekwe 20. Shields 21. Robson 22. Loz 23. Cips/Earle

Happy to disagree. Do it plenty. What did ou want from them or Launchbury that they didn't deliver though?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Happy to disagree. Do it plenty. What did ou want from them or Launchbury that they didn't deliver though?

They're senior players in the squad, I want more. More leadership, more control, more impact. The better players in the pack were the new or young guys, that shouldn't be the case. I really think we lack leaders, this was only compounded today with Farrell and Hartley not playing.

Not sure that's giving enough detail of what went wrong. We didn't get turned over ht much so we had more control over that. When we had the ball did well. Obviously the baa baa s play to offload all the time. Where did hose players fail in giving what you wanted. Good sound bites but not sure it translates to what they did wrong.

I don't know what more you want, we conceded 9 tries. Anyway.....on to SA.

I guess I just wanted more specifics. It's just general stuff without any examples of where you think they as individuals went wrong. Personally overall I thought we lacked in one on one tackles. Midfield.defence was all over the place in how they defended as a pair though better when Daly went there early doors ish. Brown ain't a winger and was out paced all game. Robshaw tackling was atrocious. Pack on the whole played well and protected he ball much better than they have
Set piece good.

I guess if you're going to name players as lacked I'd like to know why. You give sound bites here but there's no detail.

Launchbury, Robshaw and Sinkler missed the most tackles in the pack...senior players. Marler made 6 tackles all game, Mako made 18 against Exeter.

Marler and Sinkler made 4m between them.

Besides the poor stats, I don't think any of the senior players showed any leadership. The game was crying out for somebody to calm things down and lead....it didn't happen. Our leadership group needs somebody to step up.

I'm not going to elaborate more, it's boring and quite tedious.

Let's hope the boys can sharpen up for SA. I'd love a genuine captain to come through from the tour.

That's because the baabaas knew where to attack and threw it wide and away from the England pack they didn't get a chance. Exposed Robshaw and frail England backbone on the outside and offloaded quickly to negate the whole game that normal international sides bar a few play. We better get used to it because that's the way the game is heading. However sgt is right there should have been a bit more presence on the field from senior players. The gulf in caps was telling.

Marler, Launchbury and Robshaw don't suit games like that. Luckily, test matches aren't played like that. I think England played up to the occasion a bit too, they didn't kick for territory as much as they would have in a test I didn't feel, and tried to impose their attacking game.

For South Africa, I wouldn't get too worried about playing Launchbury and Robshaw (Marler would have been my thrid choice before today and hasn't changed my mind). We have to keep the options coming through though and if Robshaw plays that badly in a test then he's out. Similar with Launchbury, he's got Isiekwe and Hill pushing him this summer with Kruis, Lawes and Ewels to come back. He's got to keep his test performances high or he'll find himself out the squad.

Impressed with Curry and Daly today from the players going on tour. Daly could become our Ben Smith, it doesn't matter where he plays just get him on the pitch because he's that good.

I think Pooly's team is pretty much the one, with Nowell instead of Solomona as one definite change.

I'd take Robshaw over Wilson, but as above if Robshaw doesn't turn in a decent performance then you've got Wilson ready to come in for T2. I'd have Simmonds on the bench over Shields as well.

I'd probably start with Slade at 13, Daly at 15, Cipriani at 22 and Brown at 23, but again you'd be looking at Lozowski and Solomona to put pressure on and come in later if performances are underpar.

---

On a slightly longer-term perspective, Ben Ryan bemoaned the lack of England players who have 7s experience and said we are missing out on 7s as a development tool. Seeing the Barbarians play with a much higher skill level - is he right? Would players like Sinckler, Itoje, Simmonds, Ford, Daly and May benefit from a 7s season?

Nowell isn't touring is he Rob??

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Nowell isn't touring is he Rob??

Is he not? As you were with Solomona at 14 then!

Just got back from the game, consensus on the train back was that the only person to make more mistakes than England was Jackson, terrible would be an understatement, Owens was not much better. We were on the half way line, East stand so Owens was running our touch. He was diffident about making decisions, " I think it might have been....", when kicks went to touch, he was not even watching where they landed, in the 2nd half the Baa Baas 11 was telling him where the touch was.

At least two penalties were taken a couple of metres in front of the mark, one was a try. high tackles were the norm, totally unpunished, saw on should straight into the face of I think Daly, not even looked at.

Offside interfering with play was the norm, there were always Baa Baas running through the passing lines from the rucks delaying the quick pass, frequently these guys were then tackling the receiver without retreating close to the back foot.

Forward passes from the offload where common and again unpunished, probably two tries scored from them. We were right behind the journalist and they were laughing their heads off at the decisions. Open running rugby is one thing, but if this is it, burn the law book.

Having said all that about the ref, England were poor in their co-ordination both in attack and defence. Robshaw missed more tackles today than I have seen him miss in the whole 6N. Launchbury could not cope with the pace and Brown looked completely out of place on the wing, badly exposed twice in the first 10 minutes.

Have to say it, Ashton looked like the top predator, he tracks the play better than anyone else around. Not a full back, his positioning was awful, but England failed to exploit it as they tried to play Baa Baa rugby. Not to shabby in the tackle either, if he wasn't in France I would have him in the side.

Nearly all of the England youngsters showed what they could do in some way, Curry looked the real deal, Singleton did not look out of place, Francis was shown up a little in defence, but that was coming back inside trying to tackle Robshaw's misses. May showed he is by far the quickest thing around at the moment, NH anyway and Daly proved he is what we have all thought for a long time, class in any position.

One other comment, congrats need to go to Pat Lam for putting together such a co-ordinated side in such a short time, I have never seen such a co-ordinated Baa Baas side.

I suspect Hartley is done. If he comes back it will be a bonus.

It all does tend to highlight how much we have depended on his leadership/

Jeez just read the Telegraphs take on the game and it is from! The honeymoon period is definitely over.

In all honesty you can never take too much from this game, it's like a pre season friendly. Hopefully the players to come in will help sure up that defence though.