England - Summer Tour to South Africa

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Emirates Airline Park, Johannesburg SkySports action
16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action




Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

TBC

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Set up a nz thread. We rarely see those and it'll allow everyone to tell you whether they think cane is better than sob and you can explain reasons why he isn't.

Difference between SOB and Cane is Unlike SOB, Cane has not yet peaked. That makes him far more valuable. And we dont need to set up a thread about flankers...we wrote the book on them.

Totally agree Taylor, you produce the best. Cane is nowhere near the level of previous guys.

Yeah well Ill give you that. But neither is anyone else playing today so its a matter of relevance. Im still picking Cane for player of the year this year and his SR form suggests hes in a good position to stamp his mark on test rugby this year. Mind you, so are Barrett, Retallick, Ben Smith, Ioane and a couple of others.

France here means a lighter June series this year and Oz and SA have the tougher NH opponents so could be struggling by the time the RChampship rolls around.

Hansen will also get a good read on both England and Ireland for the end of year matches and for the first time ever they may do some early planning for those matches from a selection, player management perspective.

I dont think England will win the SA series, no matter who they send, mainly due to the new Bok coach and some very good albeit inconsistent SR form.

Ireland could, but it will still be tough, 2-1 more likely there, though 3-0 is possible, oz rugby really is in bits at the mo. No oz SR side has beaten a NZ side since 2016 and that includes the Blues, who havent either.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ahhh the arrogance of Nz'ers.....gotta love it.

Anyway I thought this was an England v SA thread??

Yeah I just found the foe button - has made this thread a lot nicer place. I think you are wrong on the thread subject surely it is Ireland vs the AB's?

IF certain people here took the trouble look at my post correctly instead of trying to belittle
me.They would find we are broadly in agreement,whatever my opinion and the right to voice
is the same as everyone here.
In my opinion the test window is the problem in it`s self,i`ve no problem with a player signing
to earn more cash.Or a test player being added to squad to increase coverage and rest players
from fatigue not sure of current rules,.So these are my ideas no player who has played union
or league at any level.Schoolboys,7`s,age groups,etc.parents,birthcountry,plus 5 year qualification.
NO grand parents,would allow ex AB or Aus players to be allowed to play for the pacific nations.
In my opinion The fall in the Bok and OZ games is due to picking overseas based players,it is
possible but unlikely.England will lose tests to both SA and Argentina home teams usually have
successes.

Not belittling you calling you plastic. Just a statement.

NO with Cyril and me it is just banter I don`t hate anyone,with you its been on my case since you`ve
been here.My opinions are as valid as yours,my allegiances no business of any but mine,in the Shields
case.Many comments feel he must earn his place before being capped,best team in the world?thats
subjective at any given time.England end 2016 very possibly.

Oh I accept it's not banter. I'm simply making a statement your a plastic fan. Accept it and revel in it. As with the other 2 proper kiwis I don't think you watch enough to form a decent level of opinion on nh rugby.

7.5, if England continue their losing streak in SA, will you maintain England are still the bestest of the best and #1 team in the world? As you do believe right now at this very moment. Only god knows how you come to this conclusion, but you’ve said so.

Depends what team is put out. If he goes with a bunch of 2nd strings and lose 3 nil what do you find out of the first team. Equally if we win win 2nd string does that mean the first team are set? I accept you'd have to watch more rugby than yourself to come to any decent conclusion though! Anyhow do excuse me if I don't reply for several hours then can't spell when I do as I'm day drinking and watching the boro. Tootle pip old son.

I watch enough NH rugby to know what the score is. It’s a struggle to get through the 80, but I try my best. I think it’s fair to say England are hanging on to #3 for dear life. I’d advise not to post anything because it’s a struggle to comprehend what your point is at the best of times when you’re sober. Have a good day on the chop

The only NH Rugby I watch is at test level,i`m 75 and suffer from agrophobia so getting out to watch
isn`t easy.Nor is this a big RU area,i make no pretence about NH club rugby knowledge,i do think
central contracts are the way to go for all test sides tho.

Ta ebop.

ebop wrote:I watch enough NH rugby to know what the score is. It’s a struggle to get through the 80, but I try my best. I think it’s fair to say England are hanging on to #3 for dear life. I’d advise not to post anything because it’s a struggle to comprehend what your point is at the best of times when you’re sober. Have a good day on the chop

Yes I know what you mean. Its better now though, the 80’s and 90’s was a complete bore after a fairly amusing 70’s when I thought NH rugby was going to take over as tops, the two Lions tours etc.

Even now its the influx of the SH to saturation levels that is making it watchable. SH players and coaches still take a big chunk of the major contracts so whatever 7.5 is saying we should watch more of half the time weve seen most of the players before hes even heard of them

So if the rugbys so great, why are they not filling these contracts with their potential more?

England finished fifth in the 6N? A clear sign that the clubs are not bringing the youth through, not enough for Jones to touch them anyway. Hes in a dilemma with SA. Why would he take a dev side now? Hes an externally contracted coach brought in to win. Period. Its now his job to develop players at the test level where the clubs choose not to?

I can see why he wants the likes of Shields. Hes desperate to get anyone not involved in the nightmare English club setup.

Lol poor wum.

What a bunch of petulant children, if you want to play silly buggers just send each other private messages. Luckily I know enough kiwis to not tar them with the same brush as the ones that come on here, in fact I don't think you are real Rugby fans at all. The kiwis I know are very knowledgeable about the game and can actually recognise skill even in foreign players. Anyway this is about the sa tour so kindly foxtrot Oscar if you don't have anything relevant to say.

It is important to get things in perspective. A lot of us occasionally wum and it doesn't stop us having decent conversations. Taylorman adds a lot to this thread with his knowledge of the NZ game.

People who only WUM or are always negative just drag everything down and it is important to distinguish between banter and constant BS, and not tar everyone from the same place with the same brush.

Putting ebop on my foe list has improved this thread no end

I`m an Anglo=Scot and an expert in SH particularly NZ rugby ,and a great fan of the ABs.I`m also
conversant with NH rugby upto late amateur period and rules then.I now only comment on NH[test]
matches watched,the Clubs like Orrel,Mosely,Coventry,Northampton,London Welsh,Borders,etc,
presumeably these still exist at some level.
I can assure you I`m very respected in NZ rugby circles for my comments and I`m certainly a fan.As to
the rest of this year.ALL teams will be experimenting to get squads right for RWC2019

emack2 wrote:I`m an Anglo=Scot and an expert in SH particularly NZ rugby ,and a great fan of the ABs.I`m also
conversant with NH rugby upto late amateur period and rules then.I now only comment on NH[test]
matches watched,the Clubs like Orrel,Mosely,Coventry,Northampton,London Welsh,Borders,etc,
presumeably these still exist at some level.
I can assure you I`m very respected in NZ rugby circles for my comments and I`m certainly a fan.As to
the rest of this year.ALL teams will be experimenting to get squads right for RWC2019

Not so sure Alan, pre 2015 there wasnt a lot of it, depending on what experimenting means. Cheika played his tried and trues only, didnt bring in a single new cap pre World cup and even called back the old fatties like Drew Mitchell from the north.

Hansen brought in Milner Skudder as the only new AB in 2015 but did bring in a few in 2014, as he was still filling in the Ritchies and the midfield position departures.

I think Eddies now at a crossroads. Hes overplayed his Ford, Farrell combo to the extent he hasnt developed any outside backs to a standard required to win the world cup. Kicks to the corners isnt going to dominate a Japanese based tournament where running the ball on the fast grounds will be essential. Jap club rugby is amongst the fastest around and with Jones having coached there thats surprising. Whats he after for 2019?

Ireland have a more rounded game and Wales and Scotland move it around now as well.

But interms of experimenting or preparation the 6 nations sides all got it badly wrong in 15, and all ran out of puff, and ideas, by the time the semis rolled around.

Do they blood new players on the southern tours and risk a SH backlash and loss of confidence?

Or do they select the core squad and add two or three fringe players that show potential for WC 19?

I say the latter. Winning is just as important as experimenting.

Have you seen anyone from Super rugby that might be WC starting material next year?

For me Jordie Barrett, even though hes already capped, will be a starter in 19.

I think Akira needs to move franchises...Chiefs or Crusaders, to cover off his defensive issues. The Blues is ruining his game I believe.

Vince Aso is making a lot of chances as is Ben Lam, the Canes winger.

You forgot modest emack.

emack2 wrote:I`m an Anglo=Scot and an expert in SH particularly NZ rugby ,and a great fan of the ABs.I`m also
conversant with NH rugby upto late amateur period and rules then.I now only comment on NH[test]
matches watched,the Clubs like Orrel,Mosely,Coventry,Northampton,London Welsh,Borders,etc,
presumeably these still exist at some level.
I can assure you I`m very respected in NZ rugby circles for my comments and I`m certainly a fan.As to
the rest of this year.ALL teams will be experimenting to get squads right for RWC2019

Are you for real? An expert Anglo Scot on nz rugby - wow. Experts won't post on this site and as 7 1/2 says a plastic fan who probably has a few shirts in the cupboard for when these teams start winning again (plastic). If you are conversant with NH rugby you would know if orrel mostly cov etc still exist. You are very well respected in nz circles my anus. Plus any one who says rules instead of laws isn't a rugby geek just someone who thinks they know what they are talking about. There is a well known saying and you're full of it.

I watched the Exeter v Sale game yesterday and again I was completely unimpressed with Ben Curry. Tom Curry (6) had a much better game and looks the better player currently.

Watching Wasps now and Dan Robson has to tour. He's the best English scrum half around at the minute. I'd be tempted to drop Care and take Spencer, Robson and Youngs on tour.

I'm with you sgt. Spot on.

Never going to happen, but Cipriani is playing so much better than George Ford too. It's odd that he's never really had a sniff, he's such a threat.

Time for Irish v Sarries. Let's see a bit of Billy and future Falcons.....Johnny Williams.

Yoda rules or laws that's playing with semantics,i`m perfectly aware the the clubs mentioned still exist.
As to my Rugby Knowledge being cowpat long before you or 7and a half joined was admitted by the
likes of Biltong,GeorgeCarling,even Cyril as very extensive.Just as I`m aware English was based on
County teams,and combined County teams were used to test and beat some very strong touring sides.
Don`t make the mistake that I don`t know what I`m talking about,with the exception of local
club rugby in NH now.I`m very conversant about what I`m saying.

What's happened since then?

Billy V has been outstanding since coming on, it's like he's never been away. Itoje on the other hand has been disappointing, way too many penalties and  coulf have had a 2nd yellow.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Never going to happen, but Cipriani is playing so much better than George Ford too. It's odd that he's never really had a sniff, he's such a threat.

Geez, is Cyps still playing? Such a flake. The very model of inconsistency.

emack2 wrote:Yoda rules or laws that's playing with semantics,i`m perfectly aware the the clubs mentioned still exist.
As to my Rugby Knowledge being cowpat long before you or 7and a half joined was admitted by the
likes of Biltong,GeorgeCarling,even Cyril as very extensive.Just as I`m aware English was based on
County teams,and combined County teams were used to test and beat some very strong touring sides.
Don`t make the mistake that I don`t know what I`m talking about,with the exception of local
club rugby in NH now.I`m very conversant about what I`m saying.

Yeah Yodas a newbie Alan, hasnt been around the traps as long as us. The impact our earlier sides had on you is well known and respected by those who have been around and its humbling to know we get such interest from those who havent even been here yet...assuming that hasnt changed in the last few years. Keep on being exactly you Alan, ignore the pretenders

Oh now leave that to the experts like you and Yoda,but will look at leinster v racing to see if DC
can achieve his dream.

Kruis cpnfirmed out of the tour.

If Itoje is to be rested (unclear that anyone will be), then that woukd leave only lLaunchbury from the regular four. Ewells and Isiekwe are already associated with the squad. Anyone think Attwood might be an outside bet?

It sounds like Kruis has a long standing issue that needs to get resolved...perhaps it was affecting his form as he's been off colour for a while now.

George Kruis and Jack Clifford are ruled out and Elliot Daly picks up a knock, but Billy Vunipola, Ben Youngs and Manu Tuilagi all carried on their comeback trail.

Clifford tore his hamstring last week against Gloucester and McCall has come out in the press today saying Kruis need surgery. Daly came off injured, but Dai Young said he doesn't think it's serious and they'll have to reassess in the week.

Saracens have at least 2 further fixtures with a semi-final to come, and 2 starts for Billy from here could see him in touring contention. Leicester will probably just have the one more league game, and if Youngs and Tuilagi start they could both be considered again for the Barbarians game to get further gametime ahead of the tour.

W/E 29/04 update

OUT
Hartley - concussion
Kruis - ankle surgery
Lawes - knee ligament injury
Clifford - torn hamstring
Hughes - knee ligament injury
Joseph - foot injury (requires surgery)
Watson - achilles injury

Comeback trail
Billy Vunipola - came off the bench against London Irish - first appearance since January
Ben Youngs - started against Newcastle after benching last week
Manu Tuilagi - started against Newcastle - first appearance since March
Sam Underhill - still hasn't featured since injury for England

Tour possibles featuring in weekend's matches
Leicester: Genge, Cole, B Youngs, Ford, May, Tuilagi
Newcastle: Graham
Exeter: Cowan-Dickie, Armand, Simmonds, Slade, Nowell
Sale: B Curry, T Curry, Ross
Bath: Obano, Dunn, Ewels, Mercer
Worcester: Te'o
Quins: Marler, Sinckler, Robshaw, Care, Smith, Marchant, Brown
Saracens: M Vunipola, George, Itoje, Isiekwe, B Vunipola, Wigglesworth, Farrell
Wasps: Launchbury, Haskell, Willis, Robson, Daly
Hurricanes: Shields

Tour possibles that did not feature
Sam Underhill
Harry Williams
Gabriel Ibitoye
Alex Lozowski

That's great effort robbo. Would be interesting to see where Jones plays tuilagi. Regarding second row will Spencer might be an outside bet? I like Slater though seems to have brought a bit of steel back into the Gloucester pack.

I think Merchant's foot was in a boot after the Worcester game! Not sure how serious.

Some players being pushed by Stephen Jones (Sunday Times) yesterday:

Nick Schonert, Jake Cooper-Woolley, Rob Webber, Dave Attwood, Ed Slater, Gary Graham, Dan Robson, Henry Trinder, Harry Mallinder, Jason Woodward.

He also namechecks:

Williams, Hepburn, Farrell, Te'o


Suggests the following should be rested:

Mako, Sinckler, Itoje


Casts doubts over:

Joseph, Care, Marler, Launchbury, Ford

And the following not considered as either not ready or past it:

Smith, Isiekwe, Curry, Robshaw, Brown




As so often he throws so many names around it is hard not to find something to agree with, but I am slightly surprised that Sheridan and Shaw are not included.

Some interesting calls (from the 50 names mentioned).

Webber, I would have nowhere near an England jersey. The guy just looks unfit, he ambles from one ruck to another and then just flops over the ball. I just find him a really annoying player, I'm not sure how he's received so many Int call-ups during his career.

Trinder would be a good shout, he's looked impressive the few times I've seen him.

Not as bat **** crazy as normal but I would be surprised if curry curry or willis were overlooked. Jones does.consistently go with the more experienced pro in his choices generally though.

Yoda wrote:That's great effort robbo. Would be interesting to see where Jones plays tuilagi. Regarding second row will Spencer might be an outside bet? I like Slater though
seems to have brought a bit of steel back into the Gloucester pack.

There are probably some more in contention, I've just gone very roughly with Eddie regulars, people touted in the media and people mentioned on here.

Although lock is quite an area of strength for us, with Nick Isiekwe down at 6th choice having regular squad exposure, one more injury in this area and we might see a new face drafted in. And while I'm sure someone like Slater wouldn't let us down, to be honest I doubt he'd win a cap without further injuries or suspensions.

I can't see anything online that would suggest their are any midweek games, so I would possibly expect quite a compact squad. Itoje, Launchbury, Ewels and Isiekwe would be plenty. If he wanted to rest Itoje, he could even call up someone like Josh Beaumont who covers second row and back row.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not as bat **** crazy as normal but I would be surprised if curry curry or willis were overlooked. Jones does.consistently go with the more experienced pro in his choices generally though.

I'd agree. There's a bit in there you can get on board with, but so many that you can't you just wonder if he's picking these names out a hat.

Taking the selections on their merit, I think we might see Robson and Mallinder as a back-up 15. Potentially Graham as well.

Quins players are the interesting one, he's got a lot of undoubted quality and experience in that Quins team, but they just aren't firing as a team. Will a change of environment help and revitalise the players? Or are they just off-form or worse, on the decline?

Marler, Robshaw, Care and Brown is probably around 250 caps to jettison, which seems extreme just because of some poor league form. I think Eddie should take them, but make sure they all have some genuine competition for their places.

Yeah he's been banging the drum on cooper..wooley and Attwood for years. I thought we'd seen the last of anyone.seriously questioning Launchbury what exactly did he say? I'd only doubt Marler getting riled but generally he's in control annoying others.

When are the Squads announced for June tests?

You're the expert. Google it.

Don`t use google for Rugby knowledge only my memory,still thanks for your help

The English Premiership final is on the 26th May. So the earliest formal announcement would be after that date (in case injured players have to drop out of contention). There's also an England fixture against the Barbarians on the 27th, and a squad has to be named for that match. It's not clear if it will be a tour warm-up - with first-choice players excluding those from the Premiership finalists - or more a Saxons selection.

If Dave Attwood is incuded in the squad, then it gets a little trickier, since he was sent to Toulon mid-season but is expected back at Bath next year. If Toulon make it to the Top 14 final, then they'll be playing on the 2nd June, one week before the first Test in South Africa.

Last year a 31 man squad was announced on 20th April. Then additional people were called up for the Barbarian game. Touring squad was confirmed on 29th May (Monday after final and Barbarians match).

In between these two dates Armand, Schonert, Taylor, Wilson, Devoto & Yarde were added while LCD, Haskell, Hill, Wood, Marchant dropped out (mainly due to injury)

To me its just like 2014 no team revealing anything till the RWC,commented on it at the time.

LondonTiger wrote:Last year a 31 man squad was announced on 20th April. Then additional people were called up for the Barbarian game. Touring squad was confirmed on 29th May (Monday after final and Barbarians match).

In between these two dates Armand, Schonert, Taylor, Wilson, Devoto & Yarde were added while LCD, Haskell, Hill, Wood, Marchant dropped out (mainly due to injury)

There are so many squad announcements nowdays, it's hard to keep up. Last year he named very quickly after the Lions squad, this year will probably be slightly different.

I would expect that he'll name a training squad for a camp next week after this round of Premiership fixtures. Then he'll name a touring squad and a Barbarians squad - which will be the touring squad less the Premiership finalists and with extra players added to fill any gaps.

Last year, Jones played Robshaw, Care, Ford, May and Brown against the Barbarians with Wigglesworth on the bench, so he might go for a strong line-up again. But without them the line-up was very inexperienced, so he might put a similar number of first-teamers in and fill the rest with experimental players.

The strongest 23 Eddie Jones could put out given current injuries and ignoring the top 4:
Marler, Dunn, Cole, Ewels, Slater, Robshaw, Curry, Mercer, Youngs, Ford, May, Te'o, Tuilagi, Solomona, Brown
Singleton, Genge, Sinckler, Spencer, Curry, Care, Smith, Marchant

Does that feel like overkill for a Barbarians fixture? Or does it feel about right?

We're a bit light on hookers (missing Hartley, George, Cowan-Dickie and Taylor) and locks (missing Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury, Lawes and Isiekwe) so we have to make do there.

Backline looks a bit route 1, but we are missing a few (Farrell, Joseph, Slade, Nowell, Daly) so we have to make do a bit there. You could rest Te'o and go Tuilagi and Marchant starting and a further option on the bench? Maybe a sub 15 such as Mallinder?

We don't answer our 3rd scrum half situation, but with Wigglesworth, Robson and Maunder tied up, would picking our 6th choice be a worthwhile move?

Back row we have three open slots with Vunipola, Simmonds, Armand, Underhill, Haskell and Hughes all missing, while Robshaw is the glue that holds it all together. You could go for a complete new look backrow, but if you can't get into the back row with those 6 out (as well as Willis and Graham unavailable) then I doubt you'd make it when they get back.

You could make a case of flipping the props. Looking at the next best players if we wanted to rest Marler and Cole completely, you have Obano and Paul Hill who could come in, and that is possibly a more attractive proposition for the Barbarians fixture.

All in all, I wouldn't be surprised if he picked that strongest team less the two starting props.

robbo277 wrote:...Last year, Jones played Robshaw, Care, Ford, May and Brown against the Barbarians with Wigglesworth on the bench, so he might go for a strong line-up again. But without them the line-up was very inexperienced, so he might put a similar number of first-teamers in and fill the rest with experimental players...

As you say, the Lions tour had a big impact on who Jones could select. The previous year, I don't think we had a Barbarians tour warm up before the Australian series, so this is the first time Jones has faced this particular schedule.

So we have no locks...?

Will Witty? Calum Green, Sean Robinson...?

We have no fit backrowers do we?? Mark Wilson?? Will Welch?? Gary Graham??

Rugby Fan wrote:

robbo277 wrote:...Last year, Jones played Robshaw, Care, Ford, May and Brown against the Barbarians with Wigglesworth on the bench, so he might go for a strong line-up again. But without them the line-up was very inexperienced, so he might put a similar number of first-teamers in and fill the rest with experimental players...

As you say, the Lions tour had a big impact on who Jones could select. The previous year, I don't think we had a Barbarians tour warm up before the Australian series, so this is the first time Jones has faced this particular schedule.

In 2016 we played Wales in that slot instead.