England - Summer Tour to South Africa

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Emirates Airline Park, Johannesburg SkySports action
16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action




Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

TBC

Jason Woodward could be selected along with shields, would this sit better in people's minds?

The mindset etc .of the England and Nz teams are apart.NZ puts AB`s at the top of the pyramid.England it seems
its the club setup.That obviously is a simplification the same rules apply to everyone,but it puts little credit on
players coming up thru Academies.Hardly improves team spirit when an outsider is parachuted straight in do
they still play A team test matches anywhere?NZ have no back row weaknesses just injury problems.Some teams
would be glad of injury cover of Matt Todd,Ardie Savae,Luke Whitelock who can`t get game time.

Just as well you can choose to turn your back on England and support the best team in the world then Alan. Fans can be mercenaries too I guess. You were probably England early 2000s.

£195 a ticket to see the ABs beat England at Twickenham in November. Good to see England exploiting NZ in more ways than just pinching our players. The RFU chief executive says they’ll plough the extra profits straight back into the game. In what way, pinching more players? Or does he mean ‘actually’ developing England players and coaches so they can do it on their own two feet.

My support is neither here nor there ,its about the England team and in my opinion the reason
they pinch below their weight.With what is arguably the best club compition in the world and
all the wealth they have the system doesn't help the national side.

Rugby shouldn't be about international teams alone. It needs to be a partnership with club rugby. Get yourself out to a game emack and stop glory supporting.

No Taylor I can't, although I'm not the best person to comment on this I don't think.

NZ aren't that strong in the backrow for me. Kaino and Read, although outstanding, haven't got much time left and nobody seems to be throwing their hands up to take over....yet. Cane is a decent 7 option, but a long way from top class (I know NZ'ers think more of him than others), he needs a big year.

It's also not exactly the same situation in nz as Europe. Nz schools pluck young players to teach and develop but there's neither the money and the leagues to plunder from. If there were tonnes of cash flowing round you'd see more movement the other way.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:No Taylor I can't, although I'm not the best person to comment on this I don't think.

NZ aren't that strong in the backrow for me. Kaino and Read, although outstanding, haven't got much time left and nobody seems to be throwing their hands up to take over....yet. Cane is a decent 7 option, but a long way from top class (I know NZ'ers think more of him than others), he needs a big year.

Canes the match of any 7 and is on the up. By next years World cup he’ll have primed well. SOB will be past it by then and the rest keep getting injured. Vunipola will be too slow in Japan on their fast surfaces. A fast game will be needed in Japan, though Eddie will know that.

Weve got players like Akira, who currently breaks more tackles than anyone by a mile, yet needs to work on his defence. Fifita has dabbled at 6 and is getting stronger. Ash Dixon and Liam Squire are handy. Of the new guys Henwood looks promising, as does Dillon Hunt of the Higlanders. Unknowns to you but making reasonable steps here.

The main thing theyre coming through and we’ll find them when we need them, cos we always do. Even if its the same retreads lifting their games at the right time, Kaino, Read etc.

We often hear we dont have a good this or that then hullo, up pops another one. NZ never sits in a poor state in any position for long, because two or three are constantly putting their hands up.

Our only problem is keeping em.

Akira looked like a world beater in the U20's, glad he's picking up again as he was great to watch. NZ will obviously come good but I think they may be a little fragile for a few years in this area.

Jury is out on Cane still imo, I'm still not seeing anything that impressive....time will tell.

Let's be honest gents who wouldn't want what nz have got talent wise. You're right about Club sides though it is club centres and still old school in England but having that history only makes it harder to break not that many want to. Can you imagine if Leicester, Northampton and wasps formed a regional team, the fans would go ape. Not football fan crazy but there would be some serious letters written I can assure you!

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Akira looked like a world beater in the U20's, glad he's picking up again as he was great to watch. NZ will obviously come good but I think they may be a little fragile for a few years in this area.

Jury is out on Cane still imo, I'm still not seeing anything that impressive....time will tell.

For a few years? Is there a position weve been fragile in for the last few years? Cant think of one myself.

If we are ‘fragile’ at loose forward, name one side that has a better selection of loosies than

Read, Kaino, Dixon, Matt Todd, Ardie Savea, Akira, Ash Dixon, Brad Shields, Luatua, Liam Squire, Vaea Fifita.

Which side has a less fragile sele tion than that list? And I promise...I wont laugh.

Centre and flank would be the obvious. Nobody is really screaming top class. SBW hasn't been the same force, ALB looks a talent but hasn't fully nailed the position. Crotty is steady, not much more.

On the flanks, Squire needs to step up a level. Vifita has shown bursts of what he can do and Savea hasn't really looked Int class. Cane could come good despite my opinion that he's pretty average.

With Kaino likely to retire with Read post WC, I can see a few issues in the back row coming up.

Anyway....this is an England v SA thread, we should perhaps move on!

You don't have Shields Taylor.

Take Read and Kaino out and it doesn't look anything special.

And you don't have Brad Shields

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Take Read and Kaino out and it doesn't look anything special.

And you don't have Brad Shields

Special? Who said anything about special. Fragile was your description. Anyway. It was as rhetoical as it was silly. Im aware of your limited exposure to the game. Bland statements kind of as deep as it gets. All good.

No need for personal digs Taylor. If you can't carry on a reasonable debate perhaps you shouldn't look to comment on these things.

I was suggesting NZ could be fragile post Read/Kaino, I don't think this is particularly controversial.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You don't have Shields Taylor.

Like I said, if we can keep them. Shields could change his mind at any time and play for the ABs so until he wears the lesser shirt, hes on the list.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:No need for personal digs Taylor. If you can't carry on a reasonable debate perhaps you shouldn't look to comment on these things.

Just correcting semantics. Fragile vs special suggests a limited capacity...in my opinion. Nothing personal.

A little fragile v isn't anything special....erm ok.

You're more than welcome to start a NZ thread if you like.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Anyway....this is an England v SA thread, we should perhaps move on!

Have SA improved much since we last played them (and since Italy beat them the following week)?

Certainly the side that was trounced by Ireland in the autumn was pretty poor. So the current side - what are their strengths, where are they vulnerable?

Who knows, although you'd expect them to be stronger, Erasmus is a shrewd operator.

SA Super Rugby sides seem to throw the ball around and hold on to it a lot more. If this style of play carries through to their national side I reckon they may surprise a few people.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Anyway....this is an England v SA thread, we should perhaps move on!

True, now you’re talking fragile. Could be a painful tour I agree.

I agree Taylor, I fancy an English clean sweep too.

Taylorman wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:No Taylor I can't, although I'm not the best person to comment on this I don't think.

NZ aren't that strong in the backrow for me. Kaino and Read, although outstanding, haven't got much time left and nobody seems to be throwing their hands up to take over....yet. Cane is a decent 7 option, but a long way from top class (I know NZ'ers think more of him than others), he needs a big year.

Canes  the match of any 7 and is on the up. By next years World cup he’ll have primed well. SOB will be past it by then and the rest keep getting injured. Vunipola will be too slow in Japan on their fast surfaces. A fast game will be needed in Japan, though Eddie will know that.

Weve got players like Akira, who currently breaks more tackles than anyone by a mile, yet needs to work on his defence. Fifita has dabbled at 6 and is getting stronger. Ash Dixon and Liam Squire are handy. Of the new guys Henwood looks promising, as does Dillon Hunt of the Higlanders. Unknowns to you but making reasonable steps here.

The main thing theyre coming through and we’ll find them when we need them, cos we always do. Even if its the same retreads lifting their games at the right time, Kaino, Read etc.

We often hear we dont have a good this or that then hullo, up pops another one. NZ never sits in a poor state in any position for long, because two or three are constantly putting their hands up.

Our only problem is keeping em.

SOB is probably behind Dan Leavy and on par with Josh Van Der Flier in the Ireland pecking order at 7 at them moment. Dan Leavy is already a much superior player than Cane and Van Der Flier bossed Cane around in their one head to head game.

Cane is surely just a place holder for the next big NZ name at 7.

Josh Van der Flier, never heard of him, is he South African like Stander?

ebop wrote:Josh Van der Flier, never heard of him, is he South African like Stander?

Nope. Born and raised in Ireland, as were his parents. His paternal grandparents were/are Dutch. Currently has 10 caps.

Collapse2005 wrote:SOB is probably behind Dan Leavy and on par with Josh Van Der Flier in the Ireland pecking order at 7 at them moment. Dan Leavy is already a much superior player than Cane and Van Der Flier bossed Cane around in their one head to head game.

Cane is surely just a place holder for the next big NZ name at 7.

How much would Leavy have played if van der Flier had not got injured against France? (Ps just noticed that Ireland have won all 9 tests Leavy has played in

Right. Must be good, because guns says he bossed Cane around in ‘one’ game, apparently. Which game was that? The exhibition game in Chicago or the serious game in Dublin?

I know I've said this before. But try watching some rugby ebop or not bothering to compare people to players you never watch.

It flew over your head didn’t it 7.5

Back to the topic........

Any guesses at a possible SA lineup?

I wonder if their game against Wales does go ahead in DC the week before T1, whether they will send a full strength side for that or a development one?

Really hard to say at this point for both sets of teams.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I agree Taylor, I fancy an English clean sweep too.

Oh, that was you. I wondered who it was.

ebop wrote:Right. Must be good, because guns says he bossed Cane around in ‘one’ game, apparently. Which game was that? The exhibition game in Chicago or the serious game in Dublin?

Ouch I see your still butt hurt about that one!

ebop wrote:Right. Must be good, because guns says he bossed Cane around in ‘one’ game, apparently. Which game was that? The exhibition game in Chicago or the serious game in Dublin?

Ah yes, the ten test one try at 25 years wonder, four of which were Italy x2, USA and Japan. Stunning stuff. Beats Canes 53 tests no problem. Though it has to be said, Cane is a year older and didnt have the might of OBrien in his way, just that McCaw fulla.

LondonTiger wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:SOB is probably behind Dan Leavy and on par with Josh Van Der Flier in the Ireland pecking order at 7 at them moment. Dan Leavy is already a much superior player than Cane and Van Der Flier bossed Cane around in their one head to head game.

Cane is surely just a place holder for the next big NZ name at 7.

How much would Leavy have played if van der Flier had not got injured against France?  (Ps just noticed that Ireland have won all 9 tests Leavy has played in

There was a lot of hype around Leavy and Ryan before they got selected. It was only a matter of time and they have definitely lived up to it so far. Ryan has never lost a professional game of rugby in over 20 games.

Prior to the game a few pundits were pointing out that Leavy should have started against France and not VdF.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/neil-francis-joe-schmidt-got-one-of-his-big-selection-decisions-wrong-36558099.html

Taylorman wrote:

ebop wrote:Right. Must be good, because guns says he bossed Cane around in ‘one’ game, apparently. Which game was that? The exhibition game in Chicago or the serious game in Dublin?

Ah yes, the ten test one try at 25 years wonder, four of which were Italy x2, USA and Japan. Stunning stuff. Beats Canes 53 tests no problem. Though it has to be said, Cane is a year older and didnt have the might of OBrien in his way, just that McCaw fulla.

McCaw retired 3 years ago which is why Can has as many caps as he does. SOB is still playing. McCaw himself stated in interviews that SOB was the player he measured himself against so Leavy and VdF are doing fine with the number of caps they have got to date. Ireland have more depth at 7 than NZ at the moment so Canes 50 caps aren't that impressive.

I doubt any team would select Cane over VdF, Leavy or SOB.

Platitudes
McCaw played against better than SOB, lol

Cane has 53 caps and is still not really looking like NZ's answer at 7....I think that says more about him than Leevy or JVDF.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

ebop wrote:Right. Must be good, because guns says he bossed Cane around in ‘one’ game, apparently. Which game was that? The exhibition game in Chicago or the serious game in Dublin?

Ah yes, the ten test one try at 25 years wonder, four of which were Italy x2, USA and Japan. Stunning stuff. Beats Canes 53 tests no problem. Though it has to be said, Cane is a year older and didnt have the might of OBrien in his way, just that McCaw fulla.

I doubt any team would select Cane over VdF, Leavy or SOB.

You are funny, the number of times we hear things like this. No idea.

Yeah that’s hilarious alright, no idea

Set up a nz thread. We rarely see those and it'll allow everyone to tell you whether they think cane is better than sob and you can explain reasons why he isn't.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Cane has 53 caps and is still not really looking like NZ's answer at 7....I think that says more about him than Leevy or JVDF.

Like englands clean sweep...only in your mind...

No 7&1/2 wrote:Set up a nz thread. We rarely see those and it'll allow everyone to tell you whether they think cane is better than sob and you can explain reasons why he isn't.

Difference between SOB and Cane is Unlike SOB, Cane has not yet peaked. That makes him far more valuable. And we dont need to set up a thread about flankers...we wrote the book on them.

Ahhh the arrogance of Nz'ers.....gotta love it.

Anyway I thought this was an England v SA thread??

Taylorman wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Set up a nz thread. We rarely see those and it'll allow everyone to tell you whether they think cane is better than sob and you can explain reasons why he isn't.

Difference between SOB and Cane is Unlike SOB, Cane has not yet peaked. That makes him far more valuable. And we dont need to set up a thread about flankers...we wrote the book on them.

Totally agree Taylor, you produce the best. Cane is nowhere near the level of previous guys.

LondonTiger wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Anyway....this is an England v SA thread, we should perhaps move on!

Have SA improved much since we last played them (and since Italy beat them the following week)?

Certainly the side that was trounced by Ireland in the autumn was pretty poor. So the current side - what are their strengths, where are they vulnerable?

I feel about this South Africa side the same way I do against France. They can be consistently awful for months and even years, but you still expect that deep down there is a good side waiting to break out of there.

With players like Marx, Etzebeth, Kolisi, de Allende and Kriel they have a strong core of good players entering their peaks who may be able to carry them forward for the next 4-6 years .