The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

First topic message reminder :

South African media reports emerging around comments made at PRO14 launch by SA Rugby president Mark Alexander that South African players will be better off playing in the northern hemisphere.

Alexander hinted South African rugby could be heading north on a more permanent basis in the near future.

The Cheetahs and Kings joined the Pro14 last year and there is a strong possibility that two more local teams will be included in the competition next season.

‘It’s a long-term investment. We have options now and in future. At some point in time, in future, if we don’t want to stay in the south [in Super Rugby], we can move north,’ said Alexander.

He added that the involvement of local players and coaches in Europe is beneficial for South African rugby.

‘The Pro14 is a good competition for the players and coaches who’re playing against tier-one nations each weekend. When we become a full Pro14 member next season, we’ll be the only nation who plays in the north and the south, and the major benefit of playing in the northern hemisphere is the players are better off.

‘With the structure of the Pro14 competition the way it is, it’s easier for travelling, with distances between places less than in the south, and the time zones are also better. When you consider player welfare and what’s best for them, then the north is better.’

The rumors are that it will be the Griquas and Pumas who will be proposed by SARU next season as their two new teams.  How well that will be received by the other participating unions remains to be seen given the poor quality of the Kings thus far.    SARU plans to cut the number of professional players in their system from approx 900 to 400 odd using a draft system and to spread the talent across the 8 professional teams.

Irish Londoner wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

There are a million people living in the valleys and mid Wales, plenty there, north Wales has three quarters of a million people living there, that are not represented as well.

You can't 'represent' the whole of Wales without having teams that are from each county. Sort of the same as Ireland has now. Wales doesn't have that. They are clubs not representative sides.

Wales is the representative side.

Same as in England. I would guess that not many people from Sunderland support Newcastle Falcons, because Newcastle Falcons don't represent the whole region. People support who they like. Not because there is a line on a map that tells them to.

Which takes us to another one of the 606 classics "the valleys team and where to base it".

In the valleys. They do not have to be privvy to one ground. they can take games around the valleys.

but preferably, Merthyr Tydfil.

LordDowlais wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:One last time lord.
You have claimed that in the pro14 there have been decisions made that the Welsh just "except".
Can you first explain what you mean by this.
Second. Give one decision that you believe the Welsh and regions "bent over and excepted"

Allowing Irish provinces to be reffed by Irish refs for a start.

Where should the refs come from then, the English games are referred by English refs, touch judges, TMOs, etc. Surely if it's a concern the WRU should be training more elite level referees - after all the most famous referee in the world is a Welshman.

Surprise surprise, a red bar for how I think the regions should be, why can't you man up and say why you don't like it ?

Irish Londoner wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:One last time lord.
You have claimed that in the pro14 there have been decisions made that the Welsh just "except".
Can you first explain what you mean by this.
Second. Give one decision that you believe the Welsh and regions "bent over and excepted"

Allowing Irish provinces to be reffed by Irish refs for a start.

Where should the refs come from then, the English games are referred by English refs, touch judges, TMOs, etc. Surely if it's a concern the WRU should be training more elite level referees - after all the most famous referee in the world is a Welshman.

I agree.

but the English refs reffing English teams is a non starter, because you are all one nationality.

But the rest I agree with.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:‘Up here’? You are based in South Wales LD! I drive to work from Newport to ‘The Valleys’ every day in about 25mins. It is not far enough away to have a region of its own. It’s just adding to the problem that you have already highlighted. A valleys region would make the situation worse, not solve it.

No it wouldn't.

Newport and Cardiff should be one team, for a start, then Swansea and Llanelli should be one team, then a mid Wales/Valleys team, and a North Wales team.

15,000 - 20,000 season ticket holders gone.

Why ?

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:‘Up here’? You are based in South Wales LD! I drive to work from Newport to ‘The Valleys’ every day in about 25mins. It is not far enough away to have a region of its own. It’s just adding to the problem that you have already highlighted. A valleys region would make the situation worse, not solve it.

No it wouldn't.

Newport and Cardiff should be one team, for a start, then Swansea and Llanelli should be one team, then a mid Wales/Valleys team, and a North Wales team.

15,000 - 20,000 season ticket holders gone.

Why ?

The same reason a Liverpool fan wouldn't support a merged team of Liverpool and Manchester Utd.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:‘Up here’? You are based in South Wales LD! I drive to work from Newport to ‘The Valleys’ every day in about 25mins. It is not far enough away to have a region of its own. It’s just adding to the problem that you have already highlighted. A valleys region would make the situation worse, not solve it.

No it wouldn't.

Newport and Cardiff should be one team, for a start, then Swansea and Llanelli should be one team, then a mid Wales/Valleys team, and a North Wales team.

15,000 - 20,000 season ticket holders gone.

Why ?

The same reason a Liverpool fan wouldn't support a merged team of Liverpool and Manchester Utd.

How very hypocritical.

Weren't everybody telling the Pontypridd fans to get behind their region when the Warriors disbanded ? Doesn't everybody deride the Pontypridd fans for their attitudes towards Pro rugby in Wales ?

In fact, I have been given the same treatment on this very forum.

Irish Londoner wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:One last time lord.
You have claimed that in the pro14 there have been decisions made that the Welsh just "except".
Can you first explain what you mean by this.
Second. Give one decision that you believe the Welsh and regions "bent over and excepted"

Allowing Irish provinces to be reffed by Irish refs for a start.

To a wandering Englishman, or South African or Kiwi...that might appear to suggest that the rest of you (example Welsh refs) don't get to ref Welsh teams. I'd like the English driftees to realise Welsh refs do indeed ref Welsh games and not many (indeed the number might be zero) Irish followers care.

So the Irish ref reffing Irish games is a peculiar Welsh obsession within the framework of the five nations competing in Pro14. That is to say, the Welsh aren't bending over in this context any more than all the rest of us are asked to bend over.

SecretFly wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:One last time lord.
You have claimed that in the pro14 there have been decisions made that the Welsh just "except".
Can you first explain what you mean by this.
Second. Give one decision that you believe the Welsh and regions "bent over and excepted"

Allowing Irish provinces to be reffed by Irish refs for a start.

To a wandering Englishman, or South African or Kiwi...that might appear to suggest that the rest of you (example Welsh refs) don't get to ref Welsh teams.  I'd like the English driftees to realise Welsh refs do indeed ref Welsh games and not many (indeed the number might be zero) Irish followers care.

So the Irish ref reffing Irish games is a peculiar Welsh obsession within the framework of the five nations competing in Pro14.  That is to say, the Welsh aren't bending over in this context any more than all the rest of us are asked to bend over.

As figures from a while back showed, its the Irish that should be the ones that have an issue with it too since the win ratio fell as Irish teams did better when refs from other nations took charge against teams from a different country

Not to mention the EPCR are happy to let an Irish ref in JP Doyle officiate Irish teams too

You just have to see the reaction to the announcement that Nigel Owens will ref Ulster this weekend against Treviso, better received than if it were ANY Irish ref

The whole refereeing situation in the Pro14 is a debacle if you ask me, but PH pointed out earlier, there is a plan for the league to employ the refs.

So either the Pro14 read my comments on here, and agree with me.

Or they have noticed a problem that almost everyone on here has dismissed and poured scorn over, and insulted me over, and are now looking to rectify it.

Either way, at least the Pro14 see it as a problem and are now looking to sort it out.

LordDowlais wrote:

How very hypocritical.

Weren't everybody telling the Pontypridd fans to get behind their region when the Warriors disbanded ? Doesn't everybody deride the Pontypridd fans for their attitudes towards Pro rugby in Wales ?

In fact, I have been given the same treatment on this very forum.

Ponty fans can support who they like. Same as everybody. But you can't expect a team's fans with a 120 year rivalry with their next door neighbours to suddenly support them. You're barking mad if you think a nation with such parochial rugby fans as Wales will just say "ok then" overnight.

I for one would not be renewing my season ticket if the Scarlets were suddenly merged with the Ospreys or called 'West Wales'. If that makes me hypocritical, short sighted or any other number of adjectives thrown my way, so be it. I think I can handle it.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

How very hypocritical.

Weren't everybody telling the Pontypridd fans to get behind their region when the Warriors disbanded ? Doesn't everybody deride the Pontypridd fans for their attitudes towards Pro rugby in Wales ?

In fact, I have been given the same treatment on this very forum.

Ponty fans can support who they like. Same as everybody. But you can't expect a team's fans with a 120 year rivalry with their next door neighbours to suddenly support them. You're barking mad if you think a nation with such parochial rugby fans as Wales will just say "ok then" overnight.

I for one would not be renewing my season ticket if the Scarlets were suddenly merged with the Ospreys or called 'West Wales'. If that makes me hypocritical, short sighted or any other number of adjectives thrown my way, so be it. I think I can handle it.

Then you need to tell that to all the other Welsh rugby supporters on here, and everywhere else, as you know very well how the Pontypridd fanbase are treated.

LordDowlais wrote:The whole refereeing situation in the Pro14 is a debacle if you ask me, but PH pointed out earlier, there is a plan for the league to employ the refs.

So either the Pro14 read my comments on here, and agree with me.

Or they have noticed a problem that almost everyone on here has dismissed and poured scorn over, and insulted me over, and are now looking to rectify it.

Either way, at least the Pro14 see it as a problem and are now looking to sort it out.

And there you have told a number of lies

You were mocked over your obsession with who paid the players and refs and your failure to grasp the actual issue, it seems you have no changed your opinion on what the issue is

Martin Anayi spoke with all the clubs after coming in and it was an issue raised across the board by the clubs, they have already taken steps to address it

Bringing the refs in house is a matter of a unified approach and standards of training which again, is something the league has already started working on by bringing the refs together throughout the year for training days

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:‘Up here’? You are based in South Wales LD! I drive to work from Newport to ‘The Valleys’ every day in about 25mins. It is not far enough away to have a region of its own. It’s just adding to the problem that you have already highlighted. A valleys region would make the situation worse, not solve it.

No it wouldn't.

Newport and Cardiff should be one team, for a start, then Swansea and Llanelli should be one team, then a mid Wales/Valleys team, and a North Wales team.

15,000 - 20,000 season ticket holders gone.

It’s a personal pipe dream, anything goes.

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:The whole refereeing situation in the Pro14 is a debacle if you ask me, but PH pointed out earlier, there is a plan for the league to employ the refs.

So either the Pro14 read my comments on here, and agree with me.

Or they have noticed a problem that almost everyone on here has dismissed and poured scorn over, and insulted me over, and are now looking to rectify it.

Either way, at least the Pro14 see it as a problem and are now looking to sort it out.

And there you have told a number of lies

You were mocked over your obsession with who paid the players and refs and your failure to grasp the actual issue, it seems you have no changed your opinion on what the issue is

Martin Anayi spoke with all the clubs after coming in and it was an issue raised across the board by the clubs, they have already taken steps to address it

Bringing the refs in house is a matter of a unified approach and standards of training which again, is something the league has already started working on by bringing the refs together throughout the year for training days

Which is something that I have been advocating on here for many a year. I could go and find it, it's probably on this very thread, but you know I have.

I will leave it now to save you any embarrassment. But you have all read what I have written on here regarding refs, and all under the same hymn sheet and the what not.

It just shows that I have now been proven to have a point, and makes members like you look like you do not have a clue what you are on about.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:The whole refereeing situation in the Pro14 is a debacle if you ask me, but PH pointed out earlier, there is a plan for the league to employ the refs.

So either the Pro14 read my comments on here, and agree with me.

Or they have noticed a problem that almost everyone on here has dismissed and poured scorn over, and insulted me over, and are now looking to rectify it.

Either way, at least the Pro14 see it as a problem and are now looking to sort it out.

And there you have told a number of lies

You were mocked over your obsession with who paid the players and refs and your failure to grasp the actual issue, it seems you have no changed your opinion on what the issue is

Martin Anayi spoke with all the clubs after coming in and it was an issue raised across the board by the clubs, they have already taken steps to address it

Bringing the refs in house is a matter of a unified approach and standards of training which again, is something the league has already started working on by bringing the refs together throughout the year for training days

Which is something that I have been advocating on here for many a year. I could go and find it, it's probably on this very thread, but you know I have.

I will leave it now to save you any embarrassment. But you have all read what I have written on here regarding refs, and all under the same hymn sheet and the what not.

It just shows that I have now been proven to have a point, and makes members like you look like you do not have a clue what you are on about.

Oh no I want to see this so why don't you go dig it out because the only argument I've ever seen you make is about who pays them so I'll await being proven wrong

Teams financed in different ways in the same league - don't have any issue with that.
How each of the 5 countries involved resolved the problem is up to them - each is free to choose.
What is a joke is claiming others have an unfair advantage - if you think they do have an advantage change the way you are organised.

Irish refs referee Irish teams in the same way Welsh referees referee Welsh teams - what is the difference ?
We all know the reason for that has been the inability of Scotland and Italy to produce sufficient refs of the right quality.

If Welsh teams are under achieving it is because of issues within the Welsh game, not an Irish conspiracy.
Until that is understood the necessary improvements will not be made

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:The whole refereeing situation in the Pro14 is a debacle if you ask me, but PH pointed out earlier, there is a plan for the league to employ the refs.

So either the Pro14 read my comments on here, and agree with me.

Or they have noticed a problem that almost everyone on here has dismissed and poured scorn over, and insulted me over, and are now looking to rectify it.

Either way, at least the Pro14 see it as a problem and are now looking to sort it out.

And there you have told a number of lies

You were mocked over your obsession with who paid the players and refs and your failure to grasp the actual issue, it seems you have no changed your opinion on what the issue is

Martin Anayi spoke with all the clubs after coming in and it was an issue raised across the board by the clubs, they have already taken steps to address it

Bringing the refs in house is a matter of a unified approach and standards of training which again, is something the league has already started working on by bringing the refs together throughout the year for training days

Which is something that I have been advocating on here for many a year. I could go and find it, it's probably on this very thread, but you know I have.

I will leave it now to save you any embarrassment. But you have all read what I have written on here regarding refs, and all under the same hymn sheet and the what not.

It just shows that I have now been proven to have a point, and makes members like you look like you do not have a clue what you are on about.

Oh no I want to see this so why don't you go dig it out because the only argument I've ever seen you make is about who pays them so I'll await being proven wrong

Are you for real ?

You and I have been over this time and again, I have been vindicated, by the Pro14 no less. If you want to prove otherwise, you go and find it. This is just another instance where you have been embarresed, and now you are trying to wriggle out of it, by asking me to do the leg work.

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

How very hypocritical.

Weren't everybody telling the Pontypridd fans to get behind their region when the Warriors disbanded ? Doesn't everybody deride the Pontypridd fans for their attitudes towards Pro rugby in Wales ?

In fact, I have been given the same treatment on this very forum.

Ponty fans can support who they like. Same as everybody. But you can't expect a team's fans with a 120 year rivalry with their next door neighbours to suddenly support them. You're barking mad if you think a nation with such parochial rugby fans as Wales will just say "ok then" overnight.

I for one would not be renewing my season ticket if the Scarlets were suddenly merged with the Ospreys or called 'West Wales'. If that makes me hypocritical, short sighted or any other number of adjectives thrown my way, so be it. I think I can handle it.

Then you need to tell that to all the other Welsh rugby supporters on here, and everywhere else, as you know very well how the Pontypridd fanbase are treated.

I hope you're not including me in that, although I suspect you probably are. I've always maintained that people should support who they want and have certainly never, EVER told anyone that they should support a certain region. In fact, the analogy I've used previously is that you wouldn't tell, say, Rochdale FC fans to support Man Utd or Man City just because they were local and in the Premier League. You support who you want. My only point has been that no-one should demand or deserve a pro club to be put in their area. And that includes Pontypridd. And also includes my own area of Newport and the Dragons. If the business case, backing and likelihood of success is there then yes any club/area could be a goer. Including Pontypridd. But we've never seen that. It's always been 'we should have a region because rugby is big in the valleys'. One of the reasons I feel that the regions/pro clubs should continue to be where they are is exactly because I think people will support who they want to support, and for that reason I feel we're more likely to get a support base and a few thousand fans if we base them in the biggest population areas. Now obviously Llanelli is the anomaly here but they've always represented the whole of West Wales anyway, as their fans will tell us and as you argued recently when defending the whole 'West is Best' slogan. They are the West Wales region, apparently. And they're doing OK. But to close down pro teams in some of the cities (Wales top 3 cities by population are Cardiff, Swansea and Newport) and relocate to a town of only 10,000 or less such as somewhere in Mid Wales is just daft, in my opinion. Just take a look at where the other clubs based on a regional/provincial system are based. Ask yourself what cities the following are based in, and therefore what we're trying to compete with:

Munster, Leinster, Ulster, Connacht, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Brumbies, Reds, Waratahs, Force, Rebels, Blues, Highlanders, Chiefs, Hurricanes, Crusaders, Sunvolves Jaguares, Bulls, Lions, Sharks, Stormers.

Where are they based? You'll see they are based in the biggest towns and cities of those countries - Tokyo (9 million population ffs!), Buenos Airies, Dublin, Limerick, Belfast, Wellington, Aukland, Christchurch, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Melbourne, Sydney, Queensland, etc., etc.

So if we want to compete with these (Pro14 sides) why are we trying to buck the trend of what every single provincial/regional union does around the world? There must be something in the fact that these are all based in major cities? There simply has to be. It can't just be by chance. Why are Waratahs in Sydney and not in Wagga Wagga? I'm sure it's not to spite the good folk of Wagga Wagga. Why are Munster based in Limerick and not Newmarket? There must be a reason. Right?

I'm not necessarily for following a trend just for the sake of it, but from a business point of view I just can't seen the rationale for ignoring major towns and cities and trying to build something from scratch in places like Mid Wales which, while stunningly beautiful in places, are unfortunately just small pockets of population clustered around markets (agricultural mostly). That's no place to start a pro team. And I reckon we'd only get a few hundred attending regularly max, after any initial interest has died down to week in week out rugby.

The Oracle wrote:I'm not necessarily for following a trend just for the sake of it, but from a business point of view I just can't seen the rationale for ignoring major towns and cities and trying to build something from scratch in places like Mid Wales which, while stunningly beautiful in places, are unfortunately just small pockets of population clustered around markets (agricultural mostly). That's no place to start a pro team. And I reckon we'd only get a few hundred attending regularly max, after any initial interest has died down to week in week out rugby.

Llanelli proves otherwise.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:The whole refereeing situation in the Pro14 is a debacle if you ask me, but PH pointed out earlier, there is a plan for the league to employ the refs.

So either the Pro14 read my comments on here, and agree with me.

Or they have noticed a problem that almost everyone on here has dismissed and poured scorn over, and insulted me over, and are now looking to rectify it.

Either way, at least the Pro14 see it as a problem and are now looking to sort it out.

And there you have told a number of lies

You were mocked over your obsession with who paid the players and refs and your failure to grasp the actual issue, it seems you have no changed your opinion on what the issue is

Martin Anayi spoke with all the clubs after coming in and it was an issue raised across the board by the clubs, they have already taken steps to address it

Bringing the refs in house is a matter of a unified approach and standards of training which again, is something the league has already started working on by bringing the refs together throughout the year for training days

Which is something that I have been advocating on here for many a year. I could go and find it, it's probably on this very thread, but you know I have.

I will leave it now to save you any embarrassment. But you have all read what I have written on here regarding refs, and all under the same hymn sheet and the what not.

It just shows that I have now been proven to have a point, and makes members like you look like you do not have a clue what you are on about.

Oh no I want to see this so why don't you go dig it out because the only argument I've ever seen you make is about who pays them so I'll await being proven wrong

Are you for real ?

You and I have been over this time and again, I have been vindicated, by the Pro14 no less. If you want to prove otherwise, you go and find it. This is just another instance where you have been embarresed, and now you are trying to wriggle out of it, by asking me to do the leg work.

I think you mean embarrassed but you said you could show it, you said you wouldn't because it would embarrass me. Now when I say you work away and don't worry about embarrassing me you refuse to?

And apparently this is embarrassing for me?

Well I'm truly embarrassed by this

https://www.606v2.com/t68000p250-the-shocking-standard-of-the-pro14

Also, just out of curiosity I did a check, and the whole population of Connacht is only 550,742 that is half of what we have in the valleys, and they are managing. Galway has a population of 70,000 not much more than my home town of Merthyr Tydfil with a population of 63,546.

Surely we could manage a region in the valleys, surely ?

Seriously Marty ? Seriously ?

read through that whole debate, and you will see me say that I do not care about nationalities, I want all the refs to be employed by one.

Something I have said on numerous threads, and I bet if I was a different member on here, others would point the same out as well.

Now please stop making a fool of yourself.

Basically, Dowlais wants professional rugby at the end of his garden path and he'll kick and scream until he has it

LordDowlais wrote:Seriously Marty ? Seriously ?

read through that whole debate, and you will see me say that I do not care about nationalities, I want all the refs to be employed by one.

Something I have said on numerous threads, and I bet if I was a different member on here, others would point the same out as well.

Now please stop making a fool of yourself.

Yes, you wanted that because of who was paying them as shown by yours posts I shared, yet only argued against the Irish doing it even though it happens with all the countries

Not only that as is typical with you, you make a claim and refuse to back it up and even this time said you could.

Now can you please show where outside of today you have argued the case that moving the refs under one umbrella needs to be done to improve standards and to train everyone the same?

Stop your childish crap about me embarrassing myself by clearly showing what I've said you argued and demonstrate where you have said what you have claimed

Marty, I did not want to make a fool of you, although you are doing quite a good job of it yourself, but please read this page:-

https://www.606v2.com/t68000p200-the-shocking-standard-of-the-pro14

And in particular, these comments made by me:-

LordDowlais wrote:I've always wanted them under the same umbrella, all paid by one taskmaster, where have I said any different ?

LordDowlais wrote:I have always said, that union controlled refs, and teams, all in one competition is the problem. You know this, and I know this, and all the others that have read this site know this.

LordDowlais wrote:It will take away the conflict of interest pain in the neck stick to beat the league with. It would also add weight against the bias argument as well.

You see, for me, and many others, although not all, nationality is not an issue, it's the fact that teams and referees are both employed by the same unions, and it can take away the question of, how can they be impartial when they are both working for the same taskmaster.

I do not want to look at Pro14 refs as Irish refs, or Welsh refs, I want to look at them as Pro14 refs.

Now please, it seems the Pro14 agree on these aspects as well, so now stop making a fool of yourself, it's cringe worthy.

Well if Phil got sat on the naughty step for speaking his mind, I can't wait to see what kind of ban the pan-Celtic brains trust of Marty and Howellais get for this. Like watching two monkeys fight over who gets to throw he last piece of sh7t at a wall

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:I'm not necessarily for following a trend just for the sake of it, but from a business point of view I just can't seen the rationale for ignoring major towns and cities and trying to build something from scratch in places like Mid Wales which, while stunningly beautiful in places, are unfortunately just small pockets of population clustered around markets (agricultural mostly). That's no place to start a pro team. And I reckon we'd only get a few hundred attending regularly max, after any initial interest has died down to week in week out rugby.

Llanelli proves otherwise.

I've already addressed the Llanelli anomaly.  They're the last 'big' side as you head west so, as their fans have alluded to in the past, they're followed by the whole of West Wales.  They are West Wales (in rugby terms).  Show me which club in the Valleys is followed by all of the valleys?  There isn't one is there?  They're all rivals and you can bet if you put a team in Ponty then fans of other clubs would feel 'disenfranchised'.  The parochial nature of rugby in Wales is evidence that you can't just club together 'valleys'  and everyone would follow.  And in Mid Wales there is nothing there in rugby terms.  You'd need to start from scratch and rely on tiny towns to build a fan base.  Not gonna happen.

Just look at the Dragons - playing the worst rugby anyone could every imagine, disgruntled fans, players leaving in their droves over the years, can hardly win a game, yet we still manage average crowds of 4, 5, 6000. Similar to the much more successful Glasgow and Edinburgh.  If that was Mid Wales, with the same budget and players, and same abject performances, there'd be perhaps a few hundred diehards turning up.  You need the population base.

The refs will still be employed by the unions unless those unions are planning on providing a different set of refs or no refs at all to the international game.

And here you go marty, taken from Feb 14th last year, on another Pro14 thread, please take a look, i will do the donkey work if I have to:-

https://www.606v2.com/t67100p100-the-future-for-the-pro14-part-5-how-are-the-unions-doing

And in particular, this comment:-

LordDowlais wrote:The issue for me is the fact we have union employed officials and union employed players and union employed coaches, where is the line between the official and the officiated ?

I have said on numerous occasions I would be a lot happier, if we were in a situation where the league itself was in charge and employed all officials, that way we could get all our officials/refs controlling the game the Pro14 way, not one doing it an Irish way, another doing it a Welsh way, another doing it an Italian way, and so on.

They could all get set mandates off the league, they could all get the same training, they could all be singing from the same hymn sheet.

All this could be paid for in a league fee way by the unions when they enter the sides into the league. All the officials/refs should answer to the same taskmaster, not to individual unions.

There is a lot more I could go into, but I would be here all night typing, and you would be here all night reading it. OK

There is plenty more on there for you.

The Oracle wrote:I've already addressed the Llanelli anomaly

Ah, so when the argument proves otherwise, we should dismiss it as an anomaly ?

There are always anomalies.

LordDowlais wrote:

Surely we could manage a region in the valleys, surely ?

Who
Is
Going
To Pay
£10m
A
Year
For
It?

Is the answer Stan Thomas again?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Surely we could manage a region in the valleys, surely ?

Who
Is
Going
To Pay
£10m
A
Year
For
It?

Is the answer Stan Thomas again?

It could be. It just goes to show there are also people with money outside of Llanelli, Newport, Swansea and Cardiff, infact, the last person to pour money into Cardiff, was not even from Cardiff, he was from my hometown, in the valleys.

Not really fair if private owners are going to keep clubs afloat who aren't self sustainable.
And the refs will still be employed by the unions.

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Surely we could manage a region in the valleys, surely ?

Who
Is
Going
To Pay
£10m
A
Year
For
It?

Is the answer Stan Thomas again?

It could be. It just goes to show there are also people with money outside of Llanelli, Newport, Swansea and Cardiff, infact, the last person to pour money into Cardiff, was not even from Cardiff, he was from my hometown, in the valleys.

Peter Thomas put £14m into Cardiff over approximately 17 years. You reckon his brother might put £10m in per season?

RugbyFan100 wrote:Peter Thomas put £14m into Cardiff over approximately 17 years. You reckon his brother might put £10m in per season?

Why will they need to put £10mil a year in ? This does not happen now. If that was the case, then Stan would have put a whopping £170m into Cardiff Blues.

I think you are going a little OTT with how much the benefactors would HAVE to put in.

LordDowlais wrote:And here you go marty, taken from Feb 14th last year, on another Pro14 thread, please take a look, i will do the donkey work if I have to:-

https://www.606v2.com/t67100p100-the-future-for-the-pro14-part-5-how-are-the-unions-doing

And in particular, this comment:-

LordDowlais wrote:The issue for me is the fact we have union employed officials and union employed players and union employed coaches, where is the line between the official and the officiated ?

I have said on numerous occasions I would be a lot happier, if we were in a situation where the league itself was in charge and employed all officials, that way we could get all our officials/refs controlling the game the Pro14 way, not one doing it an Irish way, another doing it a Welsh way, another doing it an Italian way, and so on.

They could all get set mandates off the league, they could all get the same training, they could all be singing from the same hymn sheet.

All this could be paid for in a league fee way by the unions when they enter the sides into the league. All the officials/refs should answer to the same taskmaster, not to individual unions.

There is a lot more I could go into, but I would be here all night typing, and you would be here all night reading it. OK

There is plenty more on there for you.

So I was wrong, you had argued that point before today. Seems you came around to the leagues way of thinking way before I thought

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:Peter Thomas put £14m into Cardiff over approximately 17 years. You reckon his brother might put £10m in per season?

Why will they need to put £10mil a year in ? This does not happen now. If that was the case, then Stan would have put a whopping £170m into Cardiff Blues.

I think you are going a little OTT with how much the benefactors would HAVE to put in.

Because it takes around £9m / £10m a year in revenue to become a mid table pro14 side. That's a side with 20 years of sponsors / business ventures / facilities income and growth attached to it.

If you want a small club Like Merthyr to generate the £9m / £10m a year it takes to come 5th - 7thth in the pro14 LD - How would you do it ?

It's almost astonishing how he fails address the glaring holes in his views.

I stand with what I have always said, the failure of pro rugby in Wales, is that not all of Wales are represented by it.

I know there's feck all chance of a region in the valleys, all I am saying is why not ? If there is somebody willing to stump up the money, whether that be a benefactor, or the WRU, then why not ?

Surely there will be a share of the TV revenues, gate reciepts, some sponsorship, that would help towards that magic figure of £10 million. If some entity wants to subsidise the difference, then never say never.

Lets not forget, if the WRU want to get North Wales over the line, then somebody is going to have pay somewhere.

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:And here you go marty, taken from Feb 14th last year, on another Pro14 thread, please take a look, i will do the donkey work if I have to:-

https://www.606v2.com/t67100p100-the-future-for-the-pro14-part-5-how-are-the-unions-doing

And in particular, this comment:-

LordDowlais wrote:The issue for me is the fact we have union employed officials and union employed players and union employed coaches, where is the line between the official and the officiated ?

I have said on numerous occasions I would be a lot happier, if we were in a situation where the league itself was in charge and employed all officials, that way we could get all our officials/refs controlling the game the Pro14 way, not one doing it an Irish way, another doing it a Welsh way, another doing it an Italian way, and so on.

They could all get set mandates off the league, they could all get the same training, they could all be singing from the same hymn sheet.

All this could be paid for in a league fee way by the unions when they enter the sides into the league. All the officials/refs should answer to the same taskmaster, not to individual unions.

There is a lot more I could go into, but I would be here all night typing, and you would be here all night reading it. OK

There is plenty more on there for you.

So I was wrong, you had argued that point before today. Seems you came around to the leagues way of thinking way before I thought

Like I said earlier, either the league reads my posts on here, or you do not know what you are talking about.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:And here you go marty, taken from Feb 14th last year, on another Pro14 thread, please take a look, i will do the donkey work if I have to:-

https://www.606v2.com/t67100p100-the-future-for-the-pro14-part-5-how-are-the-unions-doing

And in particular, this comment:-

LordDowlais wrote:The issue for me is the fact we have union employed officials and union employed players and union employed coaches, where is the line between the official and the officiated ?

I have said on numerous occasions I would be a lot happier, if we were in a situation where the league itself was in charge and employed all officials, that way we could get all our officials/refs controlling the game the Pro14 way, not one doing it an Irish way, another doing it a Welsh way, another doing it an Italian way, and so on.

They could all get set mandates off the league, they could all get the same training, they could all be singing from the same hymn sheet.

All this could be paid for in a league fee way by the unions when they enter the sides into the league. All the officials/refs should answer to the same taskmaster, not to individual unions.

There is a lot more I could go into, but I would be here all night typing, and you would be here all night reading it. OK

There is plenty more on there for you.

So I was wrong, you had argued that point before today. Seems you came around to the leagues way of thinking way before I thought

Like I said earlier, either the league reads my posts on here, or you do not know what you are talking about.

Yup, not like this happened more than 3 years ago

Guess the league used a crystal ball to read it 3 years before you said it

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:And here you go marty, taken from Feb 14th last year, on another Pro14 thread, please take a look, i will do the donkey work if I have to:-

https://www.606v2.com/t67100p100-the-future-for-the-pro14-part-5-how-are-the-unions-doing

And in particular, this comment:-

LordDowlais wrote:The issue for me is the fact we have union employed officials and union employed players and union employed coaches, where is the line between the official and the officiated ?

I have said on numerous occasions I would be a lot happier, if we were in a situation where the league itself was in charge and employed all officials, that way we could get all our officials/refs controlling the game the Pro14 way, not one doing it an Irish way, another doing it a Welsh way, another doing it an Italian way, and so on.

They could all get set mandates off the league, they could all get the same training, they could all be singing from the same hymn sheet.

All this could be paid for in a league fee way by the unions when they enter the sides into the league. All the officials/refs should answer to the same taskmaster, not to individual unions.

There is a lot more I could go into, but I would be here all night typing, and you would be here all night reading it. OK

There is plenty more on there for you.

So I was wrong, you had argued that point before today. Seems you came around to the leagues way of thinking way before I thought

Like I said earlier, either the league reads my posts on here, or you do not know what you are talking about.

Yup, not like this happened more than 3 years ago

Guess the league used a crystal ball to read it 3 years before you said it

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/guinness-pro12-bosses-launch-thorough-10359320

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:And here you go marty, taken from Feb 14th last year, on another Pro14 thread, please take a look, i will do the donkey work if I have to:-

https://www.606v2.com/t67100p100-the-future-for-the-pro14-part-5-how-are-the-unions-doing

And in particular, this comment:-

LordDowlais wrote:The issue for me is the fact we have union employed officials and union employed players and union employed coaches, where is the line between the official and the officiated ?

I have said on numerous occasions I would be a lot happier, if we were in a situation where the league itself was in charge and employed all officials, that way we could get all our officials/refs controlling the game the Pro14 way, not one doing it an Irish way, another doing it a Welsh way, another doing it an Italian way, and so on.

They could all get set mandates off the league, they could all get the same training, they could all be singing from the same hymn sheet.

All this could be paid for in a league fee way by the unions when they enter the sides into the league. All the officials/refs should answer to the same taskmaster, not to individual unions.

There is a lot more I could go into, but I would be here all night typing, and you would be here all night reading it. OK

There is plenty more on there for you.

So I was wrong, you had argued that point before today. Seems you came around to the leagues way of thinking way before I thought

Like I said earlier, either the league reads my posts on here, or you do not know what you are talking about.

Yup, not like this happened more than 3 years ago

Guess the league used a crystal ball to read it 3 years before you said it

I've been saying it for longer than 3 years, we all know this, I cannot be bothered to go looking again, just to embarrass you, I will continue to let you do that to yourself.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:And here you go marty, taken from Feb 14th last year, on another Pro14 thread, please take a look, i will do the donkey work if I have to:-

https://www.606v2.com/t67100p100-the-future-for-the-pro14-part-5-how-are-the-unions-doing

And in particular, this comment:-

LordDowlais wrote:The issue for me is the fact we have union employed officials and union employed players and union employed coaches, where is the line between the official and the officiated ?

I have said on numerous occasions I would be a lot happier, if we were in a situation where the league itself was in charge and employed all officials, that way we could get all our officials/refs controlling the game the Pro14 way, not one doing it an Irish way, another doing it a Welsh way, another doing it an Italian way, and so on.

They could all get set mandates off the league, they could all get the same training, they could all be singing from the same hymn sheet.

All this could be paid for in a league fee way by the unions when they enter the sides into the league. All the officials/refs should answer to the same taskmaster, not to individual unions.

There is a lot more I could go into, but I would be here all night typing, and you would be here all night reading it. OK

There is plenty more on there for you.

So I was wrong, you had argued that point before today. Seems you came around to the leagues way of thinking way before I thought

Like I said earlier, either the league reads my posts on here, or you do not know what you are talking about.

Yup, not like this happened more than 3 years ago

Guess the league used a crystal ball to read it 3 years before you said it

I've been saying it for longer than 3 years, we all know this, I cannot be bothered to go looking again, just to embarrass you, I will continue to let you do that to yourself.

Really?

There's a post from Jan last year saying the problem was pay, then there's one from Feb talking about standards etc. If you have been talking about it for 3 years why were you saying something else a year ago?

I think you’ve struck on a very important point their, LD. Well done! Peter Thomas is from your home town of Merthyr, a place at the head of the valleys, yet he has chosen to invest his millions in Cardiff RFC and the Blues, with Cardiff being the sworn enemy of anyone from the Valleys. Why on earth would he do that? He’s even written off his debts and loans owed to him by the club, which amounts to basically just gifting more money to the Blues for free. Why didn’t he invest in Ponty or Mid Wales rugby?

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:I'm not necessarily for following a trend just for the sake of it, but from a business point of view I just can't seen the rationale for ignoring major towns and cities and trying to build something from scratch in places like Mid Wales which, while stunningly beautiful in places, are unfortunately just small pockets of population clustered around markets (agricultural mostly). That's no place to start a pro team. And I reckon we'd only get a few hundred attending regularly max, after any initial interest has died down to week in week out rugby.

Llanelli proves otherwise.

I've only spent a little time in Wales but one thing that really struck me when I was in the valleys was the real "hatred" a lot of people had for the people from the surrounding areas. Not just a rugby rivalry or even a civic one, but a lot of stuff that seemed to go beyond that. Could there ever be a team that even represented one "valley" given that the people in each town along the valley seem to hate each other?

Irish Londoner wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:I'm not necessarily for following a trend just for the sake of it, but from a business point of view I just can't seen the rationale for ignoring major towns and cities and trying to build something from scratch in places like Mid Wales which, while stunningly beautiful in places, are unfortunately just small pockets of population clustered around markets (agricultural mostly). That's no place to start a pro team. And I reckon we'd only get a few hundred attending regularly max, after any initial interest has died down to week in week out rugby.

Llanelli proves otherwise.

I've only spent a little time in Wales but one thing that really struck me when I was in the valleys was the real "hatred" a lot of people had for the people from the surrounding areas. Not just a rugby rivalry or even a civic one, but a lot of stuff that seemed to go beyond that. Could there ever be a team that even represented one "valley" given that the people in each town along the valley seem to hate each other?

Of course not.

People can't even agree where the valleys begin and end.

"My valley is more valley than your valley" etc.

Irish Londoner wrote:I've only spent a little time in Wales but one thing that really struck me when I was in the valleys was the real "hatred" a lot of people had for the people from the surrounding areas. Not just a rugby rivalry or even a civic one, but a lot of stuff that seemed to go beyond that. Could there ever be a team that even represented one "valley" given that the people in each town along the valley seem to hate each other?

I do not know where you get that from, most of the people around here love Cardiff City FC, and they ain't even in the valleys. I think you have some misinterpretation in what you are witnessing.

Hate is a very strong word.

There's always one-upmanship though, I know people from allover the valleys, I always tease them by saying Merthyr is the capital of the valleys, then they have some retort back about benefits capital and so on.

I have enjoyed the company of people from Ebbw Vale, Tredegar, Pontypridd and all over, I have never seen hatred.

Where my Caravan is cited, there are mostly people from the Rhondda, all lovely people, no hatred there.

As I have said, hate is a strong word, rivalry perhaps, but not hatred.

LordDowlais wrote:

Where my Caravan is sited, there are mostly people from the Rhondda, all lovely people, no hatred there.

Comedy genius