England vs Australia - 4th Quilter International

Date: Saturday 24th November 2018
Time: 15:00
Location: Twickenham Stadium

Referee:       Jaco Peyper (SA)
Assistant 1:  Glen Jackson (NZ)
Assistant 2:  Alexandre Ruiz (Fr)
TMO:            Marius Jonker (SA)




Form


17th November England 35-15 Japan
10th November England 15-16 New Zealand
03rd November England 12-11 South Africa

17th November Italy 7-26 Australia 
10th November Wales 9-6 Australia
27th October Australia 20-37 New Zealand




Teams


England

Starting XV:
15. Elliot Daly (Wasps, 24 caps), 14. Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 1 cap), 13. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 16 caps), 12. Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, 15 caps), 11. Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 39 caps), 10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 64 caps) co-captain, 9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 79 caps), 1. Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs, 3 caps), 2. Jamie George (Saracens, 31 caps), 3. Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 16 caps), 4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 25 caps), 5. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 67 caps), 6. Brad Shields (Wasps, 4 caps), 7. Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 8 caps), 8. Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 7 caps).

Finishers:
16. Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 96 caps) co-captain, 17. Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps), 18. Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 14 caps), 19. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 9 caps), 20. Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 17 caps), 21. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 32 caps), 22. George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 50 caps), 23. Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps).


Australia


TBC

I think Australia will bring it, but the English pack will dominate the tackle and ruck.

Problem for Australia is thr back play beind the gainline because their forwards struggle to provide ruck momentum.

I am really not sure what to think about Australia. Every time I see them play they are pretty rubbish, their results have not been good, yet with the talent available to them you feel they will always be a threat.

I hope we play better than we did last year against them, where the scoreline was seriously flattering to us. We could easily have lost the game, but a couple of breaks and we end up with a big win.

Australia has enough talent, especially in the backs.

But I think they lack a real rugby culture in their pack. I think "the Australian way" of playing rugby hurts them.

They need to have a mindshift regarding forward pack dominance.

But there is a big elephant in the room nobody considers.

European rugby has shown dramatic improvement due to the impact the SH players are having in their comps.

The rugby talent, but also rugby nous from quality recruited players have improved club rugby and hence players coming through the systems are now better equipped.

Where as the opposite effect is taking place in the SH, I firmly believe our domestic rugby is getting weaker because that experience, intellect and nous is not there anymore.

Probably best we leave that elephant to another thread, else this one will be shut down before the teams are announced.

True

Of course, the Wallabies are the last side to have beaten Ireland, which is looking like a better result all the time.

I hope England play better against Australia than have played last week against Japan.

I thought they ( England) was a bit lack luster last week, maybe giving Japan a bit lack of respect and thinking it was a given from the start.

Australia will all ways be up for this game and so should England. Team selection will be vital the wings and centre partnership will be massive, Johnny may should be in with maybe Aston on the bench. But Jack Nowel deserves a start and not at centre in my view.

I think Daily should maybe on the bench with ,Mike Brown coming in at full back.

Will Jones go with Ford Farrell partnership which all ways seems to work? But then what about Teo/Slade? Who would want to be a coach for this last game?

I think both teams will lift, England didn't take the Japanese very serious I would think and neither did Australia take Italy that serious.

They will most definitely both be much better this weekend.

Having made 12 changes for the Japan game, England will revert back to looking much like the lineup that faced NZ. It is probable that only Itoje will keep his shirt for this weekend (though other starters will play but in different positions).

Not sure how many changes we can expect from Aus, especially in the pack. Would be surprised if they went with Toomua at 10 and Foley at 12 again - either swapping them around or bringing Beale in.

England have won all 5 matches against Australia under EJ - I hope that is a run we maintain with some comfort.

The Aussie supporters enmasse do not want Foley at 10, they don't want Beale at 10, that really only leaves Toomua. I think Beale at 12 and Foley to the bench.

Eddie has updated his squad - no major changes - Ted Hill remains.
Biggest thing is Piers Francis coming back in.

Squad included in OP.

As far as I can tell changes are:

Mercer and Lozowski out
Hughes and Francis in.

Those are direct changes, while it should also be noted that Brown continues to be cut from the bigger AI squad.

Ooops, didn't notice the obvious LT.

Lozowski didn't have a particularly good game - fairly anonymous I thought.
Its a shame as I am sure he wanted to make an impact following recent lack of gametime.
Mercer - it just wasn't the kind of game that was suited to him. (certainly not the kind of game that I think Eddie expected).

I do hope that Hughes doesn't get parachuted straight back into the starting lineup! I am not sure recent performances even merit him coming back into the squad at all. I would much prefer the grafting Wilson to be at 8, with Underhill and Shields (if fit).

With 15 forwards, you think he'd need to leave two out - probably Stooke and Hill.

He'll probably swap his front row back and move Lawes into the row. His question therefore is how does he use Hughes, from the bench or starting. And if Hughes starts, who misses out?

With 13 backs, he needs to cut a further 3. Assuming he reverts to his NZ starting line-up, his choices really revolve around that 23 shirt, with Tuilagi, Cokanasiga and Nowell competing for one spot. This is of course assuming Ashton is passed fit.

The other obvious cut is Francis, but in that case it would have been an odd decision to call him up in the first instance. Will Ford get cut? Or Te'o?

Worth noting that Care is already gone so Wigglesworth will be on the bench (assuming Youngs starts).

Predicted 23:
Moon, Hartley, Sinckler, Itoje, Lawes, Shields, Underhill, Wilson, Youngs, Farrell, May, Te'o, Slade, Ashton, Daly.
George, Hepburn, Williams, Ewels, Hughes, Wigglesworth, Ford, Tuilagi.

Cut: Stooke, Hill, Francis, Nowell, Cokanasiga

Eddie has too long a history of bringing players back in with minimal preparation.

Just in this of games:

Te'o brought in after injury and just 30 minutes of rugby.
Ashton brought in after a 7 week ban and just 1 game.
Lozowski brought straight back in after a 3 week suspension and no games.
Hughes brought straight back in after a 6 week suspension and no games.

Aha - I missed that Care was excluded.

Some guys really did not help themselves. Wonder when Robson is due to be fit again?

LondonTiger wrote:Eddie has too long a history of bringing players back in with minimal preparation.

Just in this of games:

Te'o brought in after injury and just 30 minutes of rugby.
Ashton brought in after a 7 week ban and just 1 game.
Lozowski brought straight back in after a 3 week suspension and no games.
Hughes brought straight back in after a 6 week suspension and no games.

Te'o came in and tried to sort what was a problem area for him.

Ashton was originally not in the 23 but called up to the bench because of injury Manu. From there he worked his way into the starting line-up.

Lozowksi was brought back in for the B team fixture. I doubt if it had been Japan and then New Zealand he would have got the call.

So now Hughes. It's definitely in keeping with his pattern to call him up as soon as he's available, but I'm not sure he'll start with him. His back row has been looking good this Autumn for the first time in a long time. Having Hughes come on fresh in the second half might also be appealing to him.

Care out too! That's a surprise.
Youngs has been the poorer of the 2 SH's Ive felt - is Care carrying a bit of the can for the Japan game?

The game shifted a bit when Wiggy came on but that was more to do with Farrell/Slade (and Nowell reverting to wing).

Youngs has had close to rave reviews from many pundits for the two games so far. Personally I felt they were a bit over the top, though he did outperform Aaron Smith and if Cipriani had delivered the pass to Ashton some would still be creaming themselves now. Certainly his two tests have been a huuuuuuge improvement on his club form. I would not have had him anywhere near the squad based on club form.

Biltong wrote:Australia has enough talent, especially in the backs.

But I think they lack a real rugby culture in their pack. I think "the Australian way" of playing rugby hurts them.

They need to have a mindshift regarding forward pack dominance.

Hmm I'm not so sure, over the last 18 months I've not seen any side put as much pressure on Irelands pack as Australia did in the 3 tests over the summer. I thought they were extremely physical up front.

To me the biggest thing the lack is decent half backs who can manage the game and leadership, for all their talent and threats they really are not winning enough games.

This is massive game for both sides but England have to be heavy favorites based on recent results between the two.

So Danny Care is out the squad. I do hope that England are not getting in to the role that some players are undroppable. Ben young's is he really nailed on and no one can take his place?

rodders wrote:

Biltong wrote:Australia has enough talent, especially in the backs.

But I think they lack a real rugby culture in their pack. I think "the Australian way" of playing rugby hurts them.

They need to have a mindshift regarding forward pack dominance.

Hmm I'm not so sure, over the last 18 months I've not seen any side put as much pressure on Irelands pack as Australia did in the 3 tests over the summer. I thought they were extremely physical up front.

To me the biggest thing the lack is decent half backs who can manage the game and leadership, for all their talent and threats they really are not winning enough games.

This is massive game for both sides but England have to be heavy favorites based on recent results between the two.

Their breakdown doesn't function well rodders, watch how they struggle to hit ruck momentum, their backs are forever playing behind the gainline.

Forgot Hughes wad back. Good to have that option.and suspect he comes straight in.

Is Hughes match fit?

3 games sat out. Nicely rested I'd have thought.

I think I would prefer Wilson to start at 8, Australia tend to have a very mobile back row, Hughes might be a bit better at trucking it up than Wilson, but he doesn't get through half Wilson's work and and is much slower to the breakdown. Wilson also gives us better options at the line out. If Shields starts, it gives us 4 main jumpers. Having said that I have seen England muddle that option up so many times, it might be better to stick at three.

Hughes for the bench and late impact, Wilson covers the whole back row and is a good 80 minute player.

EJ's system of grinders and finishers worked well. England's poor performances have coincided with injuries forcing us to change to starting the finishers and having 3rd choice grinders on the bench.

Gaww, looks like another SH loss, England were impressive against the other two. Cmon Oz, stop biffing it around. Take it up the guts all day.

Is Ashton going to be fit for this week end?

Thought i read somewhere he picked up a calf injury.

If Ashton is unfit who will takes his place?

Taylorman wrote:Gaww, looks like another SH loss, England were impressive against the other two. Cmon Oz, stop biffing it around. Take it up the guts all day.

Well we are due for a change. The basic rule for the last few years is that Wales always finds a way to lose to Oz and England always beat them. Wales finally broke that law so maybe..

Really not sure about Hughes, he's never looked comfy at Int level and so far every time we've parachuted in an 8 its ended badly!

Agree Yappy - if he is in the squad I do hope its on the bench.

From recent matches and working within the squad we have I guess we will see something like this -

Moon, Hartley, Sinkler, Itoje, Lawes, Shields, Underhill, Wilson, Youngs, Farrell, May, Teo, Slade, Nowell, Daly

Hepburn, George, H.Williams, Ewells, Hughes, Wiggy, Ford, Cockanasinga (or Ashton if fit)

propdavid_london wrote:Agree Yappy - if he is in the squad I do hope its on the bench.

From recent matches and working within the squad we have I guess we will see something like this -

Moon, Hartley, Sinkler, Itoje, Lawes, Shields, Underhill, Wilson, Youngs, Farrell, May, Teo, Slade, Nowell, Daly

Hepburn, George, H.Williams, Ewells, Hughes, Wiggy, Ford, Cockanasinga (or Ashton if fit)

I believe Nowell has also been ditched for this one

lostinwales wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:Agree Yappy - if he is in the squad I do hope its on the bench.

From recent matches and working within the squad we have I guess we will see something like this -

Moon, Hartley, Sinkler, Itoje, Lawes, Shields, Underhill, Wilson, Youngs, Farrell, May, Teo, Slade, Nowell, Daly

Hepburn, George, H.Williams, Ewells, Hughes, Wiggy, Ford, Cockanasinga (or Ashton if fit)

I believe Nowell has also been ditched for this one

I thought he had been called into training on Monday. Don't know if anything has happened since, but normally the squad isn't culled until Tuesday evening (to 25), before the 23 is named on Thursday.

With Hughes, his best game for England that I can remember was against Australia in 2016, playing a backrow of Hooper, Pocock and Timani. With Australia's jackals, maybe having someone who is harder to bring down is the way forward, as they'll have to commit more to bringing him down and less to turning him over.

Saying that, given how the other guys have played I'd keep Hughes back on the bench.

I think if I were picking the team from this wider squad, I'd go largely with that squad above, except I'd have Tuilagi on the bench and I'd be tempted to start with Cokanasiga over Nowell. We know what Nowell can do and he's a good player, but it might be a good time to find out about Cokanasiga against a Tier 1 team after his performance last week.

I thought from news thus far that Tuilagi and Ashton were unlikely to be available - in which case for me it's a question of which of Cokanasiga or Nowell are on the bench to begin with. I'd be tempted to start Nowell, but give Cokanasiga a decent run in the second half.

More questions for me about the make up of the mid-field. I'd be inclined to go back to the Ford/Farrell 10/12 axis and stick Teo outside. Slade's a decent player, but for myself I'd rather see him as cover on the bench than starting.

Back row..
Stick with
Shields
Underhill
Wilson.

Hughes still so underwhelming in an England shirt....he really owes England a couple of monstrous performances!

Id' give Coka a go from the bench.

I hope jones is bold and picks cokanasiga. The lad could be very special. Showed up well in attack and defence last week but against Australia you would hope they expose his weaknesses and a bit and test him.
I don't see the point of sticking with a flanker at 8 if Hughes is fit.

Ashton dropped for this week ends game.

Will some one be brought in to take his place, or will Eddie make do with the wingers he's got already

Apparently the chef we ordered in for nz arrived late but has managed to set a stomach bug through the aus team as well.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I hope jones is bold and picks cokanasiga.  The lad could be very special. Showed up well in attack and defence last week but against Australia you would hope they expose his weaknesses and a bit and test him.
I don't see the point of sticking with a flanker at 8 if Hughes is fit.

What has Hughes shown in his games for England? He certainly hasn't shown anything like the rampaging Rhino who first came in to the prem that had all the fans clamouring for his selection.

Id rather go with mercer than Hughes in all honesty.

I would have gone with mercer though I had forgotten Hughes was.available again. He has consistently been our best carrier when he has playe. Just unfortunate for him vunipola is world class.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I would have gone with mercer though I had forgotten Hughes was.available again. He has consistently been our best carrier when he has playe. Just unfortunate for him vunipola is world class.

Do you really think that? Personally I think he's been a complete let down in that area...which renders him useless as that's the job he's selected for...

Depends what you're looking for. Metres made definitely. And a lot of those come from the hard yards. He's not been a star player for England as vunipola has become but he's definitely a point of difference to the pack.

HHmm I just cant see that at all 7.5 but we'll just agree to disagree.

You don't have to see that bit. You can view the stats.

Eddie does Manu and England no favours by having him in the squad – I don’t think the poor guy will ever string 2 consecutive games together (or even 1 for England) – so what is the point, that ship has sailed. Hughes is a poor substitute for Billy, who also struggles to stay fit. Time to find an alternative carrying strategy I’d say. And I’ve yet to see Shields do anything better than Robshaw - but he seems an ok temporary replacement I guess.

Fortunately Aus have got their excuses in early (altho NZ have already played that card).

Tuilagi is a potential world class player. It would be stupid to dismiss that.as would writing vunipola.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You don't have to see that bit. You can view the stats.

Stats don't always tell the full picture. I just don't see what Hughes brings to the side. If he was doing what he did when he first came on the scene yes. And even his breakdown work was good then. Now...he's a shadow of that player...and never done it for England.

In relation to my point the stats would prove it to an extent.
Even given that he's a.much better 8 than wilson or shields.