Wales v England thread (6 Nations)

[mikey_dragon]

First topic message reminder :

Date: 23rd Feb 2019
Time: 9:45 am (Mountain Time)
Venue: MILLENIUM Stadium, Cardiff
Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)


Teams:

Wales: Wales: Liam Williams (Saracens); George North (Ospreys), Jonathan Davies (Scarlets), Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets), Josh Adams (Worcester); Gareth Anscombe (Cardiff Blues), Gareth Davies (Scarlets); Rob Evans (Scarlets), Ken Owens (Scarlets), Tomas Francis (Exeter), Cory Hill (Dragons), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys, captain), Josh Navidi (Cardiff Blues), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Ross Moriarty (Dragons).

Replacements: Elliot Dee (Dragons), Nicky Smith (Ospreys), Dillon Lewis (Cardiff Blues), Adam Beard (Ospreys), Aaron Wainwright (Dragons), Aled Davies (Ospreys), Dan Biggar (Northampton), Owen Watkin (Ospreys).


England: Daly; Nowell, Slade, Tuilagi, May; Farrell, Youngs; Moon, George, Sinckler, Lawes, Kruis, Wilson, Curry, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Williams, Launchbury, Shields, Robson, Ford, Cokanasiga.

ANY personal attacks will be a ban. No warnings.

[maestegmafia]

Nowell to play flanker and maybe Tuilagi at scrumhalf?

[No 7&1/2]

Just the training squad obviously. Not sure if it's mistake or not. Could be playing Sinckler there after his mini cameo.

[maestegmafia]

I remember JPR Williams played openside flanker for Wales once. Maybe Daly will replace Curry?

[BamBam]

Why would Curry need replacing?

[maestegmafia]

Why would Curry need replacing?

Because he is possibly at scrum half.

[Ricardo74]

I know Robson has been released to play for Wasps on Friday night. I assume this is why he's not in the training squad?

The lack of an additional 9 would suggest Robson is still expected to fulfil that role on the 23rd, I would say.

He'd best (a) play well for Wasps, and (b) not get flippin' injured!

[No 7&1/2]

Makes sense then Ricardo. Perhaps an unnecessary risk. But swings and roundabouts missing Jones training I suppose.

[Ricardo74]

Also, Sky News are reporting that Hartley and Super Maro will be joining up with the training squad this week.

Not sure what that means for the rest of the tournament regarding availability. I thought Itoje was out for a while...

[LondonTiger]

Robson has played 10 minutes of rugby in the last few weeks. It makes sense for him to have a run out for Wasps.

Same could be said for Genge, with less playing time, but with Mako injured he is probably a little worried about losing any more at LH.


I am intrigued that Te'o and Devoto are included.

[robbo277]

It's interesting that we've gone for 25 + Hartley and Itoje. I don't think they're in contention for the Wales game, this is just a chance for them to show their faces and do some light work with the England team, coaches and physios I reckon. We already have 2 hookers and 3 locks without them. If they're ready they can play for their clubs on the Wales weekend and then join back up with the England team after that. Or play club on the second fallow week and come back into contention for the Italy game.

Are Te'o and Devoto there to practice running hard for our centres to tackle? I doubt either of them will leapfrog into the team vs Wales. Could potentially have one on the bench.

[eirebilly]

This is a tough game to call for me. England have looked the best team so far by a mile but Gatland is a cagy oulde coach and I think he will set a very good game plan to counter England.

Really too close to call for me.

[No 7&1/2]

I'd certainly.be more comfortable.if it was at Twickenham. We should win based on form players and coaches but funny things happen in sport.

[Rugby Fan]

No Clifford. No Robson or 2nd scrum half. I don't know why.

Think he wants Robson to have a game? Wasps play on Friday, so there'll be an extra day to recover.

[LondonTiger]

No Clifford. No Robson or 2nd scrum half. I don't know why.

Think he wants Robson to have a game? Wasps play on Friday, so there'll be an extra day to recover.

 As I said above, I think that is the reason. Plus if he gets injured he has experienced replacements available.

[Guest]

French stats quite clearly show a game of two halves though. England let up in the second 40. Otherwise it's more reflective of the fact that England battered a really poor French side from the off.

Did England let up in the 2nd though, I'm not sure they did. To nil a side in the 2nd half after they came in 20+ pts down shows that there was a big step up defensively. We had chances to get more than the 14pts in the 2nd but either way, it's still a decent return. I just think they were different halves of rugby rather than England letting up, the defensive effort in the 2nd half was very impressive.  

Yes, perhaps let up is the wrong word. I feel like they kicked a lot more so that would explain possession stats. But it does show a game of two halves so I think it's fair to say a game of two halves to some extent.

[Guest]

French stats quite clearly show a game of two halves though. England let up in the second 40. Otherwise it's more reflective of the fact that England battered a really poor French side from the off.

Did England let up in the 2nd though, I'm not sure they did. To nil a side in the 2nd half after they came in 20+ pts down shows that there was a big step up defensively. We had chances to get more than the 14pts in the 2nd but either way, it's still a decent return. I just think they were different halves of rugby rather than England letting up, the defensive effort in the 2nd half was very impressive.  

They didn't execute as well in attack, there were a couple of chances that went begging. The defence held pretty firm. I think the whole intensity of the game dropped a little, I don't think it was just England. The second half seemed to drag. There was no doubt in the result and everything went a bit flatter.

I don't think the stats quite show a game of two halves. I think England are happier to let teams have the ball, and the stats against Ireland show something similar. England are making their forward metres through kicks, either in the air or on the ground. For instance;

May's first try: Daly kicked the ball about 40m out for May's first try and May skinned 3 defenders to get to the ball. In terms of stats and the way they are recorded, May has made 0 carries, made 0m and beaten 0 defenders
May's third try: Ashton kicked the ball from 25m, May outstripped two defenders to dot down.
Slade's try: Farrell kicked from our own 10m line, Lawes regathered on their 10m line. Youngs kicked into the 22 and Ashton gathered. First 40m made by kicks, 20m by running, Slade beats 1 defender at the end.
Penalty try: Slade intercepted on the 22 and ran to their 10m line. The last 40m the ball was gained by a kick and an early tackle
Farrell try: Youngs takes a penalty on our own 10m line and feeds Farrell. Farrell kicks it at their 10m again, and then 40m gained by kicks.

So across those 5 tries alone, England make 185m from kicks and beat all the cover defenders. Not reflected in the stats, but if you added those kicked metres gained, then the stats look more balanced.

Yes, agree that the kicked stats are missed. But I don't think it's a simple case of adding those stats on. The stats are the stats are they're there for a reason. They're not carried metres. It's showing that in terms of physical effort from 1 to 15, England are scoring tries much easier than their opponents, by and large.

[maestegmafia]

England smartly took advantage of the fact the french back three were badly placed defensively. As they game progressed they cleverly exploited that more and more.

[Guest]

In terms of England's kicking game exploiting the backfield, I wonder if we might see a back 3 of Halfpenny, Liam Williams, and Adams. All three are excellent defensive wingers/fullbacks. All good in the air, good kicking game, and pacey. Halfpenny solid, LW tricky, Adams a good midpoint between the two. Bring North on with 30 to go and make some holes.

I don't think he will, but I'd like to see that. Try not to make it personal but reading mikey say Halfpenny 'isn't required' is... Wales need reliable test quality in as many positions as possible because they can't pick it at 5, 6, 9, 12 and won't at 10. Halfpenny is quality, he'll just be very undercooked/it might be deemed he's not worth the risk to start in such a massive first game back. But I'd have him in there straight away. Been a lot better since moving back to Wales - and he's transferred that to international. A lot better with ball in hand and also popping up to score a few tries. Not Hogg, nor Daly, but Ireland saw what not having Kearney meant against England (Kearney never scores tries as well).

This is such a vital part of England's game it makes very obvious sense to go for Halfpenny's defensive abilities. It's not as if he's a bad player, he's been a Welsh fixture since 2011. Wales will need 80-85%+ goalkicking from minute one. If Gatland goes Anscombe, which I can see the logic for/he will, you need Halfpenny on the pitch.

[dummy_half]

If I was Welsh, I'd have a match fit 1/2p at 15 as just about the first name on the team sheet. Pretty much as defensively solid at any 6Ns fullback, and with the advantage of being an elite goal kicker. Plenty of creativity elsewhere, and 1/2p isn't as poor in this regard as sometimes made out.

The big question is whether he is match fit.

On paper I have England's team as significantly stronger that Wales and in better form. Even without Mako I'd take our front 5 unit and 8-9-10 axis. Of course there are the imponderables - home advantage for Wales and the possibility of one of the coaches gaining a tactical upper hand plus in Peyper possibly the first referee to ever be biased against both teams, , but at the moment I am reasonably positive for an England win

[maestegmafia]

Wales were eighth in the irb rankings going in to the 2007 RWC. They were worse after. They still won the next Grandslam in 2008.

The margins between calamity and disaster and success are much much smaller than you elude to.

Defensive reshuffle, change a few players. A kick up the arse and a good opening five minutes and suddenly France look like they did in the first twenty vs Wales not the 3rd quarter against England

[Ricardo74]

If I was Welsh, I'd have a match fit 1/2p at 15 ...The big question is whether he is match fit.

I honestly don't see how he can be.

I agree, a 100% fit 1/2p is one of the best 15s in the NH, and with his goalkicking he's got to be in the team. But...

He's been out since November, and has only had a training run-out. The account I read said that he was going full-tilt and into contact hard, but given he's coming back from a bad concussion I would wonder if he's really ready. The series of knock-outs and concussions picked up by North in a relatively short space of time a season or two ago (watch it be five years ago or something, now) would have me wondering about putting 12/p straight back into it.

He's obviously a mentally strong chap, and I can't imagine he'd ever consciously shirk a 100% collision, but...

[Guest]

If I was Welsh, I'd have a match fit 1/2p at 15 ...The big question is whether he is match fit.

I honestly don't see how he can be.

I agree, a 100% fit 1/2p is one of the best 15s in the NH, and with his goalkicking he's got to be in the team. But...

He's been out since November, and has only had a training run-out. The account I read said that he was going full-tilt and into contact hard, but given he's coming back from a bad concussion I would wonder if he's really ready. The series of knock-outs and concussions picked up by North in a relatively short space of time a season or two ago (watch it be five years ago or something, now) would have me wondering about putting 12/p straight back into it.

He's obviously a mentally strong chap, and I can't imagine he'd ever consciously shirk a 100% collision, but...

His value has gone up a lot recently!

[Ricardo74]

If I was Welsh, I'd have a match fit 1/2p at 15 ...The big question is whether he is match fit.

I honestly don't see how he can be.

I agree, a 100% fit 1/2p is one of the best 15s in the NH, and with his goalkicking he's got to be in the team. But...

He's been out since November, and has only had a training run-out. The account I read said that he was going full-tilt and into contact hard, but given he's coming back from a bad concussion I would wonder if he's really ready. The series of knock-outs and concussions picked up by North in a relatively short space of time a season or two ago (watch it be five years ago or something, now) would have me wondering about putting 12/p straight back into it.

He's obviously a mentally strong chap, and I can't imagine he'd ever consciously shirk a 100% collision, but...

His value has gone up a lot recently!  

Good spot!

[No 7&1/2]

That's the key point I think. That first 50 50 or tackle. He generally puts his head where he shouldn't so I wouldn't expect that he'd dodge anything but I can imagine the Dr will be a jumpy as anyone.

[Guest]

I believe he's been doing contact work for a while. The problem was, each time he did it, he showe symptoms. When those stopped it's hard to say - but I believe around Christmas was the last time Pivac came out and mentioned he'd had a setback.

It's quite possible that Halfpenny was ready for the Italy game. Perhaps he wasn't. With an injury like this, and the kind of playe Halfpenny is, he should be physically fit and ready to go. It's just a case of match fitness and sharpness.

If the concussion isn't deemed to be a problem - which it isn't as far as we know - I'd take the risk.

[TightHEAD]

I think a lot of credit has to go to the 'foam noddles' England have been using.

pure class.

All that practice will come in handy when the Welsh fans start waving their inflatable Daffs and Leeks at them in anger.

[dummy_half]

I believe he's been doing contact work for a while. The problem was, each time he did it, he showe symptoms. When those stopped it's hard to say - but I believe around Christmas was the last time Pivac came out and mentioned he'd had a setback.

It's quite possible that Halfpenny was ready for the Italy game. Perhaps he wasn't. With an injury like this, and the kind of playe Halfpenny is, he should be physically fit and ready to go. It's just a case of match fitness and sharpness.

If the concussion isn't deemed to be a problem - which it isn't as far as we know - I'd take the risk.

As I alluded to earlier, the issue would be match fitness / sharpness. I think it's possible for 1/2p to be at full physical fitness - after all, he will have been able to continue gym and cardio work, and even technical work (goal kicking / receiving high balls) but not under pressure of the contact game. It takes a few weeks and a few matches to get back up to playing speed even when fully fit, and throwing him into a Wales v England match after one full contact training game and one club game would be a risk.

[majesticimperialman]

I would love to see a fully fit 1/2p play against England. He is a real potent player and lethal with the boot ( goal kicking) But i would hate him to start and get injured/concussed again.

Surely he should have "Game time" to get back into be in fully up for this game.

[Poorfour]

Halfpenny's tackle technique would distress a mini-rugby coach, though. He regularly puts his head on the wrong side of the tackle - perhaps to get more of his body weight into the hit - and his dislocated shoulder and concussions are the result. Brave, but foolish.

[Guest]

Haven't seen him do that for a while mind.

[Cyril]

Is it just me, or is the word ‘alluded’ (or ‘eluded’ by some ) used way too heavily on this forum? We really just mean ‘said’ or more accurately, ‘posted’.

‘Hinted at’ or ‘undirectly drawn attention to’ seems a little subtle for these forums

It’s definitley flavour of the month.

[Guest]

Is it just me, or is the word ‘alluded’ (or ‘eluded’ by some ) used way too heavily on this forum? We really just mean ‘said’ or more accurately, ‘posted’.

‘Hinted at’ or ‘undirectly drawn attention to’ seems a little subtle for these forums

It’s definitley flavour of the month.

What are you alluding to Cyril?

[LondonTiger]

Haven't seen him do that for a while mind.

Certainly for a few months.

[Cyril]

Oracle, just vaguely making a subtle reference to summat or other. Or was my allusion an illusion? Basically it’s a grey area. Sort of. Ish.

[Rugby Fan]

There were high hopes this would be a mouth-watering Six Nations but, so far, it hasn't lived up to expectations. To inject some drama into the tournament, Wales, and probably Scotland, need to beat England. Wales, to throw the title race open, raising the stakes for their match with Ireland. For Scotland, an opportunity to show they really can outplay a physical team without the benefit of home advantage.

It's not that the first two weeks were unenjoyable - I'm always going to like two England victories - but Ireland, Wales and Scotland haven't looked at their best, while France have actually got opposition supporters feeing sorry for them. Conor O'Shea is doing a lot to help Italian rugby but they haven't made life difficult for many sides at Test level.

(I suppose a first Italian victory over England would make this a tournament to remember regardless of the other results)

[Pie]

No Mako is a massive opportunity.

And England will have to vary their gameplan against probably the best defensive side in the NH until Mitchell's England plus, if as I suspect Biggar wins the 10 shirt, expect English defense to be turned to expose May's inner man sausage.

[Sgt_Pooly]

And England will have to vary their gameplan against probably the best defensive side in the NH .

We've already played Ireland

[maestegmafia]

And England will have to vary their gameplan against probably the best defensive side in the NH .

We've already played Ireland

I think England probably are the best defensive side at the moment. Wales and Ireland have a lot to prove in this championship.

That said modern sport is a lot about analysis and there have been a few games played now, so if the home work on the opposition has been done, then by round three this championship should be tougher.

[Ricardo74]

...as I suspect Biggar wins the 10 shirt, expect English defense to be turned to expose May's inner man sausage.

Jonny May is the one of our back three (whomever the third member might be) that I like most under the high ball. It's been one area of his game that's seen massive improvement over the years, and now utilising the most hi-tech pool noodle and soapy ball techniques, he's bang on.

Unless you're alluding to something else?

Daly, on the other hand, has a point to prove and could be considered someone to target by Biggar. Nowell and Ashton less so, both secure and have significant game time at 15. Were Big Joe to get the nod, again, that would be a possible concern, but honestly, I don't think its likely in this one.

Picking out May struck me as odd, is all.

[munkian]

I feel like I need to remind certain posters that Halfpenny's recent lengthy absence was due to a late unpunished cheapshot...

Looks like World rugby will be silent on Hogg's absence due to a cynical foul too.

[Ricardo74]

I feel like I need to remind certain posters that Halfpenny's recent lengthy absence was due to a late unpunished cheapshot...

Looks like World rugby will be silent on Hogg's absence due to a cynical foul too.

Not sure of the bearing of the cause of the injury on the debate as to his fitness (or otherwise) for the forthcoming match? Yes, it was a cheap shot. Yes, so was the one which has put Hogg out. They happen, sometimes they get punished, more often they don't and we all get frustrated. I'm not sure what World Rugby could do - there is a citing process which gets invoked if it was deemed red-cad worthy. Perhaps this could be reduced to the citing officer getting involved at a missed YC offence, but that may well produce far too many citings.

One for another thread, I would suggest?

[munkian]

I feel like I need to remind certain posters that Halfpenny's recent lengthy absence was due to a late unpunished cheapshot...

Looks like World rugby will be silent on Hogg's absence due to a cynical foul too.

Not sure of the bearing of the cause of the injury on the debate as to his fitness (or otherwise) for the forthcoming match? Yes, it was a cheap shot. Yes, so was the one which has put Hogg out. They happen, sometimes they get punished, more often they don't and we all get frustrated. I'm not sure what World Rugby could do - there is a citing process which gets invoked if it was deemed red-cad worthy. Perhaps this could be reduced to the citing officer getting involved at a missed YC offence, but that may well produce far too many citings.

One for another thread, I would suggest?

People were suggesting his injuries are usually do to his tackling technique, they ain't.

[Ricardo74]

People were suggesting his injuries are usually do to his tackling technique, they ain't.

I think that only the dislocated shoulder from 2014(?) is directly attributable to a tackle situation. That said, his tackling technique is such that it's possible that it does contribute to his overall lack of availability due to his head-on, "win the contact" attitude.

I'm thinking about Jonny Wilkinson. I don't think that many of his many and varied injuries were direct results of tackle impacts, but I think everyone would acknowledge that his physicality and confrontational tackling were contributing factors.

IMHO the pertinent question is whether he will show signs of ring-rust due to the layoff.

[Rugby Fan]

People were suggesting his injuries are usually do to his tackling technique, they ain't.

No-one disputes Halfpenny was injured by a late tackle in the Australia match but he has also hurt himself when he's been the one making a tackle. An old blitz defence article blames his technique, but some of them look like bad luck.

https://theblitzdefence.wordpress.com/2017/10/16/not-for-the-squeamish-halfpennys-tackling-technique/

[carpet baboon]

People were suggesting his injuries are usually do to his tackling technique, they ain't.

I think that only the dislocated shoulder from 2014(?) is directly attributable to a tackle situation. That said, his tackling technique is such that it's possible that it does contribute to his overall lack of availability due to his head-on, "win the contact" attitude.

I'm thinking about Jonny Wilkinson. I don't think that many of his many and varied injuries were direct results of tackle impacts, but I think everyone would acknowledge that his physicality and confrontational tackling were contributing factors.

IMHO the pertinent question is whether he will show signs of ring-rust due to the layoff.

Didn't Wilkinson suffer a laceration to one of his kidneys from a tackle he made? I'm sure im not making that one up.
How hard do you have to hit some one to damage your own kidney?

[Guest]

From those videos it looks like 1/2p wants to hit with his right hand shoulder always, regardless which side the attacking player is on. Every video on that link he's going in on the right hand shoulder. Has he got a problem with the left perhaps, and that's leading him to do this?

[SecretFly]

Depends on who the someone is. Robust rugby playing basterde... chances are higher than your question seems to suggest.

[Gooseberry]

Didn't Wilkinson suffer a laceration to one of his kidneys from a tackle he made? I'm sure im not making that one up.
How hard do you have to hit some one to damage your own kidney?

He was taken out claiming a high ball.
Tindall nearly died after having a kidney split and puncturing a lung when kicked by Mark Jones.

[maestegmafia]

Didn't Wilkinson suffer a laceration to one of his kidneys from a tackle he made? I'm sure im not making that one up.
How hard do you have to hit some one to damage your own kidney?

He was taken out claiming a high ball.
Tindall nearly died after having a kidney split and puncturing a lung when kicked by Mark Jones.

You make it sound like Mark Jones beat Tindall up.

It was more a case of Tindall landing on Jones’s boot.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/2291724/Mike-Tindall-counts-blessings-after-scare.html

[LordDowlais]

Tindall nearly died after having a kidney split and puncturing a lung when kicked by Mark Jones.

It wasn't Mark Jones, and it wasn't a kick either. It was the 2008 match at Twickenham, he was tackled very hard by a Welsh forward, I think it might have been Popham, and he went off after about 65mins.

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