Wales v England thread (6 Nations)

[mikey_dragon]

First topic message reminder :

Date: 23rd Feb 2019
Time: 9:45 am (Mountain Time)
Venue: MILLENIUM Stadium, Cardiff
Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)


Teams:

Wales: Wales: Liam Williams (Saracens); George North (Ospreys), Jonathan Davies (Scarlets), Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets), Josh Adams (Worcester); Gareth Anscombe (Cardiff Blues), Gareth Davies (Scarlets); Rob Evans (Scarlets), Ken Owens (Scarlets), Tomas Francis (Exeter), Cory Hill (Dragons), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys, captain), Josh Navidi (Cardiff Blues), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Ross Moriarty (Dragons).

Replacements: Elliot Dee (Dragons), Nicky Smith (Ospreys), Dillon Lewis (Cardiff Blues), Adam Beard (Ospreys), Aaron Wainwright (Dragons), Aled Davies (Ospreys), Dan Biggar (Northampton), Owen Watkin (Ospreys).


England: Daly; Nowell, Slade, Tuilagi, May; Farrell, Youngs; Moon, George, Sinckler, Lawes, Kruis, Wilson, Curry, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Williams, Launchbury, Shields, Robson, Ford, Cokanasiga.

ANY personal attacks will be a ban. No warnings.

[maestegmafia]

Tindall nearly died after having a kidney split and puncturing a lung when kicked by Mark Jones.

It wasn't Mark Jones, and it wasn't a kick either. It was the 2008 match at Twickenham, he was tackled very hard by a Welsh forward, I think it might have been Popham, and he went off after about 65mins.

Popham last game for wales

[LondonTiger]

Tindall nearly died after having a kidney split and puncturing a lung when kicked by Mark Jones.

It wasn't Mark Jones, and it wasn't a kick either. It was the 2008 match at Twickenham, he was tackled very hard by a Welsh forward, I think it might have been Popham, and he went off after about 65mins.

From the article MM linked to:

The latest blood tests have been good and Tindall, 29, hopes the internal bleeding, which caused the biggest worry, is over. He suffered the injury when he slithered across the pitch in an attempt to win possession only to land on top of Mark Jones' foot immediately after the Wales wing had hoofed the ball away.

It was an accidental kick that left the Gloucester centre having to be carried off and out of the Six Nations. He thought at first he had only winded himself, but the searing pain did not stop. It was quelled by morphine and he eventually finished up in Hammersmith Hospital where surgeons diagnosed that he had torn a hole in his liver and had punctured a lung.

[LondonTiger]

Any way Mark Jones is probably a republican , and as Eddie has shown it is hard to trust the Jones boys

[Rugby Fan]

Lee Byrne thought it was him.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/byrne-recalls-tindall-horror-injury-2196527

[Rugby Fan]

You can't see it very clearly amid the catalogue of English errors, but I think Tindall is the player down when he dives after the loose ball and lands on Byrne, who is chasing through. (Closest view is during the replay on the 36 second mark)

[munkian]

And England will have to vary their gameplan against probably the best defensive side in the NH .

We've already played Ireland

I think England probably are the best defensive side at the moment. Wales and Ireland have a lot to prove in this championship.

That said modern sport is a lot about analysis and there have been a few games played now, so if the home work on the opposition has been done, then by round three this championship should be tougher.

Sorry Maes - completely disagree with you there, Ireland's attack against them was ridiculously blunt and 1 dimensional - France made linebreaks for fun against them then messed things up.

Billy V made a huge 6 tackles against France and missed 3 - they are much better with the ball than without.

Losing Mako is a much bigger blow than if Billy was sidelined.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

France did make a lot of linebreaks, only to force the pass. I'm not sure that's relevant though, as I don't think we've got the players to make linebreaks beyond first phase. As long as England's kick chase is good, then I don't see us making many breaks. My guess is that we'll see a few grubbers early on in the hope that it buys us a bit of time and space in midfield later.

[munkian]

France did make a lot of linebreaks, only to force the pass. I'm not sure that's relevant though, as I don't think we've got the players to make linebreaks beyond first phase. As long as England's kick chase is good, then I don't see us making many breaks. My guess is that we'll see a few grubbers early on in the hope that it buys us a bit of time and space in midfield later.

Adams, Sanjay, North, Gareth Davies, Anscombe, Tommos Williams , JD2, Watkins ?

[lostinwales]

And England will have to vary their gameplan against probably the best defensive side in the NH .

We've already played Ireland

I think England probably are the best defensive side at the moment. Wales and Ireland have a lot to prove in this championship.

That said modern sport is a lot about analysis and there have been a few games played now, so if the home work on the opposition has been done, then by round three this championship should be tougher.

Sorry Maes - completely disagree with you there, Ireland's attack against them was ridiculously blunt and 1 dimensional - France made linebreaks for fun against them then messed things up.

Billy V made a huge 6 tackles against France and missed 3 - they are much better with the ball than without.

Losing Mako is a much bigger blow than if Billy was sidelined.

Can't use individual stats to make a point like this as the workload is shared out. Also difficult to measure effectiveness by tackles and missed tackles. All that really matters is what is on the scoreboard.

You can use tackle stats to explain what is on the scoreboard but you can't derive the scoreboard from the tackle stats alone.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

France did make a lot of linebreaks, only to force the pass. I'm not sure that's relevant though, as I don't think we've got the players to make linebreaks beyond first phase. As long as England's kick chase is good, then I don't see us making many breaks. My guess is that we'll see a few grubbers early on in the hope that it buys us a bit of time and space in midfield later.

Adams, Sanjay, North, Gareth Davies, Anscombe, Tommos Williams , JD2, Watkins ?

Not once England's defence is set.

[Guest]

You can also just watch the game rather than look at the stats sheet.  And if there were line breaks.......... then there were line breaks!

[munkian]

France did make a lot of linebreaks, only to force the pass. I'm not sure that's relevant though, as I don't think we've got the players to make linebreaks beyond first phase. As long as England's kick chase is good, then I don't see us making many breaks. My guess is that we'll see a few grubbers early on in the hope that it buys us a bit of time and space in midfield later.

Adams, Sanjay, North, Gareth Davies, Anscombe, Tommos Williams , JD2, Watkins ?

Not once England's defence is set.

Depends who you target and how quick our ball is surely ?

[Scottrf]

Wales did score a massive 6 points during our disaster campaign last year so we will need to be on our toes.

[Guest]

Wales did score a massive 6 points during our disaster campaign last year so we will need to be on our toes.

Yes, the history of rugby union shows that the same thing happens from one year to the next

[Gooseberry]

You can't see it very clearly amid the catalogue of English errors, but I think Tindall is the player down when he dives after the loose ball and lands on Byrne, who is chasing through. (Closest view is during the replay on the 36 second mark)

Please put warnings on this kind of thing before posting, its uncomfortable watching England from that era

There was a French forward who had dropped a knee on Tindalls side during that game and I think thats what many people thought had been the cause of the injury, but its pretty clear from that thats where he got hurt and quite accidental, and yes Byrne not Jones.

Kind of sidetracking any relevance to the upcoming game mind, aside from noting just how much NH rugby has moved on in a decade. Not even France look that disorganised and incapable of basic ball handling skills. Roof open or closed, hostile atmosphere or not, dodgy England full back aside, it should be a much higher quality game.

[munkian]

Wales did score a massive 6 points during our disaster campaign last year so we will need to be on our toes.

And you scored nothing after the first 20 minutes, we had a perfectly good try disallowed - odd hill for you to die on....

[LondonTiger]

Wales did score a massive 6 points during our disaster campaign last year so we will need to be on our toes.

And you scored nothing after the first 20 minutes, we had a perfectly good try disallowed - odd hill for you to die on....

Last year was a pretty poor game between two sides who were a long way from their best. Hopefully this year will be better.

[munkian]

Wales did score a massive 6 points during our disaster campaign last year so we will need to be on our toes.

And you scored nothing after the first 20 minutes, we had a perfectly good try disallowed - odd hill for you to die on....

Last year was a pretty poor game between two sides who were a long way from their best. Hopefully this year will be better.

There was poor selection and positional play from our back three too which lead to both English tries, we sorted that out and it was nearly all us after that - just failed to capitalise - apart from the 'non' try.

[LondonTiger]

Thinking on French linebreaks - I could not remember there being any where near as many as the stats, but then that is because of how they are classified.

Most occurred from within their own 22, usually with the man tackled by the second wave, sometimes into touch. The number of linebreaks drops the closer France get to the England half and the defence was allowing virtually nothing once they were in our half.

To say that the reason France failed to capitalise on linebreaks was because they messed up is to do a huge disservice to the England defence who were forcing these errors.

[LordDowlais]

To say that the reason France failed to capitalise on linebreaks was because they messed up is to do a huge disservice to the England defence who were forcing these errors.

But when Wales scored tries and made breaks against France it was because of the French ineptitude.

you cannot have it both ways.

Either France are inept, or the other side is world class with their pressure. So it's England world class when they force mistakes, or French ineptitude when Wales force mistakes.

[munkian]

To say that the reason France failed to capitalise on linebreaks was because they messed up is to do a huge disservice to the England defence who were forcing these errors.

But when Wales scored tries and made breaks against France it was because of the French ineptitude.

you cannot have it both ways.

Either France are inept, or the other side is world class with their pressure. So it's England world class when the force mistakes, French ineptitude when Wales force mistakes.

Hey, we only win when we are lucky

[BamBam]

Surely Huget failing to dot the ball down with little pressure on him or the lock throwing a miss pass over two team mates directly to North are examples of French ineptitude?

Which examples do you have of French players making mistakes all on their own without any pressure against England

[munkian]

Surely Huget failing to dot the ball down with little pressure on him or the lock throwing a miss pass over two team mates directly to North are examples of French ineptitude?

Which examples do you have of French players making mistakes all on their own without any pressure against England

Everything Huget did apart from setting up their try ?

[BamBam]

Aren't we talking about French attacking ineptitude against English defence?

[munkian]

Aren't we talking about French attacking ineptitude against English defence?

We were but you brought up French defence ?

[BamBam]

No, Dowlais brought it up

To say that the reason France failed to capitalise on linebreaks was because they messed up is to do a huge disservice to the England defence who were forcing these errors.

But when Wales scored tries and made breaks against France it was because of the French ineptitude.

you cannot have it both ways.

Either France are inept, or the other side is world class with their pressure. So it's England world class when they force mistakes, or French ineptitude when Wales force mistakes.

So somewhat clumsily, I'm comparing English strong defence not allowing France to capitalise on their few line breaks against us, with the French ability to implode giving Wales two tries, one going backwards (Huget failing to dot down) and one going forwards (the ridiculous miss pass)

May well be apples and oranges, but think the overall point of pressure forcing mistakes vs brain farts causing mistakes still kinda works

[LondonTiger]

To say that the reason France failed to capitalise on linebreaks was because they messed up is to do a huge disservice to the England defence who were forcing these errors.

But when Wales scored tries and made breaks against France it was because of the French ineptitude.

you cannot have it both ways.

Either France are inept, or the other side is world class with their pressure. So it's England world class when they force mistakes, or French ineptitude when Wales force mistakes.

Not looking to have it both ways. While France have been close to incompetent, they were pressured into errors by by England and Wales. England in defence to prevent French gains, Wales in defence to enable try scoring.

[LondonTiger]

Simple fact is we do not know what will happen next weekend. 

Other than pessimists like me, we all have too much faith in our own teams. England fans look at the Autumn and 6Ns so far remembering almost beating NZ, then comfortably beating Aus, Ireland and France but forgetting the travails with Japan and SA while Welsh fans will look at a record winning run but ignoring some sub par performances within them (noting this is not dissimilar to England's world record winning run under Jones where results were better than performances).

England have so far played better in the 6Ns than Wales, but arguably cannot get better. Wales have perhaps been below par, but have won two matches on the road. Yet really all we know is that after next week at least one of the teams is no longer in the running for GS and triple crown. Perhaps both could be out of the running?

[munkian]

Simple fact is we do not know what will happen next weekend. 

Other than pessimists like me, we all have too much faith in our own teams. England fans look at the Autumn and 6Ns so far remembering almost beating NZ, then comfortably beating Aus, Ireland and France but forgetting the travails with Japan and SA while Welsh fans will look at a record winning run but ignoring some sub par performances within them (noting this is not dissimilar to England's world record winning run under Jones where results were better than performances).

England have so far played better in the 6Ns than Wales, but arguably cannot get better. Wales have perhaps been below par, but have won two matches on the road. Yet really all we know is that after next week at least one of the teams is no longer in the running for GS and triple crown. Perhaps both could be out of the running?

[Pie]

Didn't Wilkinson suffer a laceration to one of his kidneys from a tackle he made? I'm sure im not making that one up.
How hard do you have to hit some one to damage your own kidney?

He was taken out claiming a high ball.
Tindall nearly died after having a kidney split and puncturing a lung when kicked by Mark Jones.

not true

the injury to Tindall was when he fell on Jones boot

[LondonTiger]

Didn't Wilkinson suffer a laceration to one of his kidneys from a tackle he made? I'm sure im not making that one up.
How hard do you have to hit some one to damage your own kidney?

He was taken out claiming a high ball.
Tindall nearly died after having a kidney split and puncturing a lung when kicked by Mark Jones.

not true

the injury to Tindall was when he fell on Jones boot

As has been ascertained it would appear to be Byrnes foot not Jones.

[dummy_half]

Simple fact is we do not know what will happen next weekend. 

Other than pessimists like me, we all have too much faith in our own teams. England fans look at the Autumn and 6Ns so far remembering almost beating NZ, then comfortably beating Aus, Ireland and France but forgetting the travails with Japan and SA while Welsh fans will look at a record winning run but ignoring some sub par performances within them (noting this is not dissimilar to England's world record winning run under Jones where results were better than performances).

England have so far played better in the 6Ns than Wales, but arguably cannot get better. Wales have perhaps been below par, but have won two matches on the road. Yet really all we know is that after next week at least one of the teams is no longer in the running for GS and triple crown. Perhaps both could be out of the running?

I think we can all agree with the two bolded statements. Not sure England can't get better - they eased off in the last 20 against France, which is when France had 2 or 3 really good line breaks but failed to connect with the last telling pass, and against Ireland were more effective as a pressuring defence than as a fluent attacking side. However, can THIS England, absent Mako and Itoje, raise their game above the level they reached in Dublin?

Wales - first home game of the 6Ns, against their biggest rival - they will surely be looking for better performances that the first half against France and the rather stilted game in Ital by a largely 2nd string side. Hard to judge how much the France 2nd half reflected Welsh improvement and how much was France imploding - probably some elements of both

[Ricardo74]

Okay, lifted this from (what I thought was a rather good) post by miaow on another thread, which got somewhat lost in bickering thereafter:

2018
...
NZ, HQ. Lost. Ashton (1')
JAP, HQ. Won. Care (2')
AUS, HQ. Won. May (2')

2019

IRE, Dub. Won. May (1')

We can, of course now add:

FRA, HQ. Won. May (1')

Bearing in mind May opening the account in the second minute against Wales last year, would anyone bet against England coming out of the blocks like a doped-up Ben Johnson next Saturday (showing my age with that reference, perhaps!)?

As miaow highlighted, it seems to be a definite plan by England to explode into life. Knowing they're going to do it is one thing - stopping them, another. Question is, can Wales?

[LondonTiger]

Bearing in mind May opening the account in the second minute against Wales last year, would anyone bet against England coming out of the blocks like a doped-up Ben Johnson next Saturday (showing my age with that reference, perhaps!)?

Well I remember setting my alarm clock so I could watch the Seoul final. Still the most incredible sporting moment I have seen - even if he was doped up.


As to the other points about a fast start, the difference between the two games so far is that against Ireland we had a planned move at a set piece (the throw straight to Manu) whereas against France it was Daly counter attacking from deep. Perhaps what we are seeing is that England are switched on from the start, rather than feeling their way into games.

[munkian]

Bearing in mind May opening the account in the second minute against Wales last year, would anyone bet against England coming out of the blocks like a doped-up Ben Johnson next Saturday (showing my age with that reference, perhaps!)?

Well I remember setting my alarm clock so I could watch the Seoul final. Still the most incredible sporting moment I have seen - even if he was doped up.


As to the other points about a fast start, the difference between the two games so far is that against Ireland we had a planned move at a set piece (the throw straight to Manu) whereas against France it was Daly counter attacking from deep. Perhaps what we are seeing is that England are switched on from the start, rather than feeling their way into games.

I think May's early try against us was due to Farrell, once again, spotting space and a back line out of position - from what I remember, we swapped Anscombe (15) and Patchell (10) around which seemed to sort things out. We also start with two un experienced wingers - Adams and Evans which didn't help either.

We are now  likely to have at least one of L Williams or Halfpenny in the backline with either Biggar or Anscombe at 10 and North and/or Adams on the win.

[Guest]

I'm not sure the game last year is a good comparison for this upcoming fixture.

Wales had dominated the game for 55 minutes in 2017, and were still the better team until the final 10 minutes when they lost it with English pressure and then JD2's kick/Cuthbert's poor defensive read. Eddie knew his team got away with one in the 2017 fixture - the main reason for the result as Wales creaking at key moments in both halves, and then buckling late on (nothing new sadly).

In 2018, England were also coming to the end of their period of dominance/winning streak - and it showed in the Wales game. Scotland, France and Ireland then beat them consecutively in the remaining games.

Despite being at home England were visibly wary of Wales' possession and running threats and, after they had the lead, by and large they managed to drag the game into a slow arm wrestle by chipping balls to Patchell and Steff Evans all day, putting the ball of the pitch when they could, and slowing down ruck ball. With good chasers, they managed to shut those two down and put them off their game.

That said, Wales still found holes, Anscombe popping up with two breaks, Shingler finding a great break on the blindside. Then there was the try that wasn't as well as the other try that wasn't thanks to Underhill.

In reality, England played very little constructive rugby and relied on their physicality to quell the Welsh attack. Their counter attacking didn't come off in the second-half. England scraped through the game, deservedly won, but unconvincing - as the next few results showed.

This will be a very different game. It's unlikely to be played in the kind of torrential weather it was last year (although it might if the roof is open...). But England look a lot better from 1-23. Collectively and individually. Even if Wales can prevent the early scores they're clearly targeting they're going to be a threat for the full 80.

I think this is too early for someone to have successfully 'worked' England's tweaked approach/gameplan out. England didn't play too much against Ireland, and they didn't have to be particularly slick against France to rack up the points. I'm sure they have one or two things in the locker that could turn this game. I also think Wales will peak for the final week against Ireland. England still comfortable favourites at this stage. But let's see how that changes an hour before kick-off!

[Pie]

Didn't Wilkinson suffer a laceration to one of his kidneys from a tackle he made? I'm sure im not making that one up.
How hard do you have to hit some one to damage your own kidney?

He was taken out claiming a high ball.
Tindall nearly died after having a kidney split and puncturing a lung when kicked by Mark Jones.

not true

the injury to Tindall was when he fell on Jones boot

As has been ascertained it would appear to be Byrnes foot not Jones.

Jones boot is a generic term for a welshman's boot. The odds on it being a Jones wearing said boot being disproportionately high when cf. to population.

[LondonTiger]

Jones boot is a generic term for a welshman's boot. The odds on it being a Jones wearing said boot being disproportionately high when cf. to population.

Things like this quiz are a lot easier for Wales than any other country:

https://www.sporcle.com/games/Benno/international-rugby-xvs-wales

[Guest]

Fun fact for you - Scotland had more players name Jones in their team than Wales when they played recently in the AIs!

Do with that info what you will......

[majesticimperialman]

In my honest opinion, in the first 2 games Wales have seemed very sluggish/unfit, especially in the first half against France. Never looked like scoring a try untill Huget lost the ball and North fell on to it. It was only then that Wales perked up.

England on the other hand in the first 2 game's have way beyond what i thought England could play at.

Wales in cardiff will be no push over that's for sure but if they (England) oplay like they did in the first 2 games. And Wales play like they did in their first 2 games. it could be very embarrasing for Wales. 

But personaly i do expect Wales to be a lot better prepared for England and give England a very hard game. 

It is just a matter now of waiting and seeing.

[munkian]

In my honest opinion, in the first 2 games Wales have seemed very sluggish/unfit, especially in the first half against France. Never looked like scoring a try untill Huget lost the ball and North fell on to it. It was only then that Wales perked up.

England on the other hand in the first 2 game's have way beyond what i thought England could play at.

Wales in cardiff will be no push over that's for sure but if they (England) oplay like they did in the first 2 games. And Wales play like they did in their first 2 games. it could be very embarrasing for Wales. 

But personaly i do expect Wales to be a lot better prepared for England and give England a very hard game. 

It is just a matter now of waiting and seeing.

Try: T Williams (47'), North (52', 72')

Did you actually watch the game ?

[Guest]

Also crossed the line at least once, without being awarded, maybe twice before then? Or was the Moriarty's break just after?

[majesticimperialman]

In my honest opinion, in the first 2 games Wales have seemed very sluggish/unfit, especially in the first half against France. Never looked like scoring a try untill Huget lost the ball and North fell on to it. It was only then that Wales perked up.

England on the other hand in the first 2 game's have way beyond what i thought England could play at.

Wales in cardiff will be no push over that's for sure but if they (England) oplay like they did in the first 2 games. And Wales play like they did in their first 2 games. it could be very embarrasing for Wales. 

But personaly i do expect Wales to be a lot better prepared for England and give England a very hard game. 

It is just a matter now of waiting and seeing.

Try: T Williams (47'), North (52', 72')

Did you actually watch the game ?

YES I did.

[Guest]

Jones boot is a generic term for a welshman's boot. The odds on it being a Jones wearing said boot being disproportionately high when cf. to population.

Things like this quiz are a lot easier for Wales than any other country:

https://www.sporcle.com/games/Benno/international-rugby-xvs-wales

A few tricky ones in there, but by and large, yes.

answers:

[munkian]

In my honest opinion, in the first 2 games Wales have seemed very sluggish/unfit, especially in the first half against France. Never looked like scoring a try untill Huget lost the ball and North fell on to it. It was only then that Wales perked up.

England on the other hand in the first 2 game's have way beyond what i thought England could play at.

Wales in cardiff will be no push over that's for sure but if they (England) oplay like they did in the first 2 games. And Wales play like they did in their first 2 games. it could be very embarrasing for Wales. 

But personaly i do expect Wales to be a lot better prepared for England and give England a very hard game. 

It is just a matter now of waiting and seeing.

Try: T Williams (47'), North (52', 72')

Did you actually watch the game ?

YES I did.

Then you forgot that -

Liam Williams had a try disallowed BEFORE the 2nd French try

Tommos Williams scored a try BEFORE North's 1st try



Miaow - Moriarty's disallowed try was after North's first try

[Guest]

Yeah, wasn't sure about the second, but you beat me to the point i was trying to make re: Welsh threat/Huget's slip.

[dummy_half]

Yeah, wasn't sure about the second, but you beat me to the point i was trying to make re: Welsh threat/Huget's slip.

Wales were coming back into the game early in the second half, but were still well behind on the scoreboard and it really was Huget's error that gave them the momentum and knocked the wind out of the French sails (as bad errors like that are prone to do, especially for a team that isn't winning much). It was a typical speculative kick through with a penalty advantage - you see 2 or 3 a game, and nothing ever comes of them, but this time one of France's more experienced and talented players had a complete brain freeze and gifted North the try.

[Pie]

I wonder what the medical effect of being a Wales fan is. How many times as a fan have I been forced to suffer for 50 minutes only to have my BP go off the charts on the last twenty as we fight to come back or maintain a slender lead. Im pretty sure they have taken a few years off that way. Maybe I should sue.

[maestegmafia]

Yeah, wasn't sure about the second, but you beat me to the point i was trying to make re: Welsh threat/Huget's slip.

Wales were coming back into the game early in the second half, but were still well behind on the scoreboard and it really was Huget's error that gave them the momentum and knocked the wind out of the French sails (as bad errors like that are prone to do, especially for a team that isn't winning much). It was a typical speculative kick through with a penalty advantage - you see 2 or 3 a game, and nothing ever comes of them, but this time one of France's more experienced and talented players had a complete brain freeze and gifted North the try.

There were a number of phases where welsh players knocked on etc in the first half during a positive attack. Plenty of potential but atrocious conditions were a mitigating factor. A lucky bounce here or there always helps boost morale but the confidence of the welsh team didn’t drop as fast as the french did.

We saw similar confidence drop in their game last week too. Despite scoring a superb try once they were comfortably out of the game on the scoreboard at the time

[maestegmafia]

Yeah, wasn't sure about the second, but you beat me to the point i was trying to make re: Welsh threat/Huget's slip.

Wales were coming back into the game early in the second half, but were still well behind on the scoreboard and it really was Huget's error that gave them the momentum and knocked the wind out of the French sails (as bad errors like that are prone to do, especially for a team that isn't winning much). It was a typical speculative kick through with a penalty advantage - you see 2 or 3 a game, and nothing ever comes of them, but this time one of France's more experienced and talented players had a complete brain freeze and gifted North the try.

Hugets error is one factor, also smart kick through a flat defence forces defensive errors. As we saw at Twickenham last week, probing kicks work well.

[Sponsored content]