Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[McLaren]

First topic message reminder :

Kwini

It amazes me that a professional footballer can end up one footed. Just practice with your weak foot every day.

I remember spending a summer playing with only my left foot in the garden. Came back next season two footed.

[beninho]

Football transfer value values are way more then how good the player is. Celtic are a massive club, but can't compete with palace in regards to finances, therefore palace can hold out for a bigger top whack. Wan bissaka isn't 50m because he's english, hes 50m because they didnt need to sell him, and I guess he has a long contract with them.

[kwinigolfer]

Stranger thing than Man Utd low-balling Celtic on Tierney is that none of the second-tier clubs, who could actually afford 25M on a proven player, have gone in for him.
That's how Saints got VVD & Wanyama, after all.

[beninho]

Stormzy at Glastonbury was pretty impressive.

[super_realist]

Football transfer value values are way more then how good the player is. Celtic are a massive club, but can't compete with palace in regards to finances, therefore palace can hold out for a bigger top whack. Wan bissaka isn't 50m because he's english, hes 50m because they didnt need to sell him, and I guess he has a long contract with them.

Do you think Wan Bissaka would be sold for £50m if he was Northern Irish? Of course not. If you're not from a trendy footballing nation it's reflected in the price tag.

[super_realist]

Stormzy at Glastonbury was pretty impressive.

You must be a lot younger than I thought Beninho.

[beninho]

39 years old, and like all sorts of music. And the show last night was very good.

[beninho]

Football transfer value values are way more then how good the player is. Celtic are a massive club, but can't compete with palace in regards to finances, therefore palace can hold out for a bigger top whack. Wan bissaka isn't 50m because he's english, hes 50m because they didnt need to sell him, and I guess he has a long contract with them.

Do you think Wan Bissaka would be sold for £50m if he was Northern Irish? Of course not. If you're not from a trendy footballing nation it's reflected in the price tag.

But he isn't. So that's a weird argument. Find me a young norn iron player who should cost that much in a similar situation?

Ferland Mendy played 57 games for lyon before a 50m move to Madrid. Promising full backs to big clubs cost a lot of money,if the selling club can hold out.

[McLaren]

I had to Google ferland. Didn't know he existed until I saw a list of most expensive defenders.

[beninho]

Madrid have also spent 45m on Rodrigyo Goes, 18 year old from Brazil. Oh look rich clubs spend loads on young players. Vinicius was similar when he was 17. And as mentioned joao felix is linked for 112m to athletico and he is around 20.

Young players cost a lot of money, all comes down to the selling club and what they can hold on for. Teams like Celtic cant hold out for the big money like palace, lyon, santos or benfica.

Thats Brazilian, portugese and french players, to show its not just English players that cost a lot.

[westisbest]

If Tierney played for mid-level Premier League club he would also be going for £50mil. But he's not, he's playing in the SPFL and like it or not, it does have a bearing on players values. So Celtic have valued him at £25mil which will be the most ever for an SPFL based player and are quite rightly holding out for that.

As Super points out he has been a 1st team regular for 3 seasons, has Champions League, Europa League and international experience. He has four years left on his contract, he loves the club and although I do think he will go as the Premier League has its appeal and the money will be much better than what he can get at Celtic, he wont kick up a fuss if low ball offers are rejected.

As for Maguire I think he is good but I reckon Leicester - who do not need to sell him - are being deliberately obtuse to scare off Man Utd. And it's working

Benfica probably thought they were doing the same when they valued Joao Felix but Atletico seem up for up and despite his scary levels of potential that's just mental

I don't think he would be going for £50m on the basis that he's from an unfashionable football nation i.e he's Scottish. If he was English however, that would certainly add value to his price tag.
However, Tierney would be absolutely mental to stay at Celtic. There's nothing left for him to do in such a tinpot league. The MINIMUM he should be doing every year in the SPL is the treble, so there's no achievement in winning it.

Football is all about market forces these days infact no, it’s about the perception of market forces. On the one hand the assertion of a tinpot league cannot be refuted, on the other hand Old Firm players play under an intense amount of pressure and scrutiny (2nd is failure) as well as full stadiums 50,000 & 60000 respectively of impassioned fanatics and regular European football, it represents a tough breeding ground for good players.
When the financial disparity wasn’t so great Scottish football provided a rich feeding ground for slightly more financially enabled English clubs. Now due to the huge gulf in finances, even Rangers & Celtic aren’t taken seriously despite somehow STILL being the 5th  & 6th biggest supported clubs in Britain averaging over the last 5 years (even more astonishing that Rangers are there on a 5 year average count considering only 3 of those seasons were in the top flight). I suppose what I’m saying is Celtic should hold out for their valuation of the player. The fact that the league is Tinpot has very little bearing on the players ability or potential. Didn’t VvD spend some time at Celtic?

Celtic and Rangers rightly aren't taken seriously. They're on a downward spiral and have been for years. Being popular amongst a sad fan base who have nothing else going on in their lives than to support two has been clubs in Europe's 20th ranked top tier league doesn't mean you deserve respect (I would imagine there are a few 2nd Division teams such as the Championship and Serie B which would rank higher than the SPL too)

Of course, I don't expect someone to pay £50m for Tierney, but he's a far more accomplished player than some no mark at Palace who has only played 40 games. So whilst Tierney's fee might be realistic at around £25m. The Palace players fee is preposterous, but as you say the fee probably reflects how much money is in the league and the lack of will to sell to a "rival" club.

One of the things I don't quite get about fans of the Old Firm is that there was a time when the gap between the SPL and other leagues was far narrower, when they had better players and got further in Europe. Season ticket prices haven't been reduced to reflect how far they've fallen in standard, and these gullible soap dodgers still pay for them. Madness.

I’ve got a few Mayes who support Celtic, know a couple who support Rangers.
Didn’t know they were a sad bunch who had nothing better to do with their lives.

Dear me. You write some sh1t playa.

[beninho]

Brandon Flowers, what a frontman. So many cracking tracks. Didn't catchvthe chemical brothers on tv though, I bet they were also fantastic.

The Cure tonight...I'll pass!

[westisbest]

I used to like the Cure

[super_realist]

Brandon Flowers, what a frontman. So many cracking tracks. Didn't catchvthe chemical brothers on tv though, I bet they were also fantastic.

The Cure tonight...I'll pass!

There's a cracking interview with Flowers on a Swedish show with Richard Dawkins. Funny for everyone except Brandon Flowers.

[JAS]

If Tierney played for mid-level Premier League club he would also be going for £50mil. But he's not, he's playing in the SPFL and like it or not, it does have a bearing on players values. So Celtic have valued him at £25mil which will be the most ever for an SPFL based player and are quite rightly holding out for that.

As Super points out he has been a 1st team regular for 3 seasons, has Champions League, Europa League and international experience. He has four years left on his contract, he loves the club and although I do think he will go as the Premier League has its appeal and the money will be much better than what he can get at Celtic, he wont kick up a fuss if low ball offers are rejected.

As for Maguire I think he is good but I reckon Leicester - who do not need to sell him - are being deliberately obtuse to scare off Man Utd. And it's working

Benfica probably thought they were doing the same when they valued Joao Felix but Atletico seem up for up and despite his scary levels of potential that's just mental

I don't think he would be going for £50m on the basis that he's from an unfashionable football nation i.e he's Scottish. If he was English however, that would certainly add value to his price tag.
However, Tierney would be absolutely mental to stay at Celtic. There's nothing left for him to do in such a tinpot league. The MINIMUM he should be doing every year in the SPL is the treble, so there's no achievement in winning it.

Football is all about market forces these days infact no, it’s about the perception of market forces. On the one hand the assertion of a tinpot league cannot be refuted, on the other hand Old Firm players play under an intense amount of pressure and scrutiny (2nd is failure) as well as full stadiums 50,000 & 60000 respectively of impassioned fanatics and regular European football, it represents a tough breeding ground for good players.
When the financial disparity wasn’t so great Scottish football provided a rich feeding ground for slightly more financially enabled English clubs. Now due to the huge gulf in finances, even Rangers & Celtic aren’t taken seriously despite somehow STILL being the 5th  & 6th biggest supported clubs in Britain averaging over the last 5 years (even more astonishing that Rangers are there on a 5 year average count considering only 3 of those seasons were in the top flight). I suppose what I’m saying is Celtic should hold out for their valuation of the player. The fact that the league is Tinpot has very little bearing on the players ability or potential. Didn’t VvD spend some time at Celtic?

Celtic and Rangers rightly aren't taken seriously. They're on a downward spiral and have been for years. Being popular amongst a sad fan base who have nothing else going on in their lives than to support two has been clubs in Europe's 20th ranked top tier league doesn't mean you deserve respect (I would imagine there are a few 2nd Division teams such as the Championship and Serie B which would rank higher than the SPL too)

Of course, I don't expect someone to pay £50m for Tierney, but he's a far more accomplished player than some no mark at Palace who has only played 40 games. So whilst Tierney's fee might be realistic at around £25m. The Palace players fee is preposterous, but as you say the fee probably reflects how much money is in the league and the lack of will to sell to a "rival" club.

One of the things I don't quite get about fans of the Old Firm is that there was a time when the gap between the SPL and other leagues was far narrower, when they had better players and got further in Europe. Season ticket prices haven't been reduced to reflect how far they've fallen in standard, and these gullible soap dodgers still pay for them. Madness.

I’ve got a few Mayes who support Celtic, know a couple who support Rangers.
Didn’t know they were a sad bunch who had nothing better to do with their lives.

Dear me. You write some sh1t playa.

Aye, downward spiral, that’s why Rangers have 45000 season ticket holders and a waiting list of 14000. What size was the waiting list before the downward spiral started??

They’re not on a downward spiral at all, they’re merely being left behind because the financial playing field is now so grossly distorted toward the big 5 leagues. It was never quite a level playing field but now it’s almost bloody vertical.
Scottish football in general in terms of the SFA and SPFL is pretty much dead in the water. Rangers and Celtic could be better financed but they’re handcuffed to an association that has no commercial awareness whatsoever and is riddled with petty jealousy.

[super_realist]

JAS, who cares how many losers want to buy a ticket to watch Rangers for a season?

I'm talking about the quality of Scottish Football, the league which has nosedived from being ranked 8 in Europe to being ranked 20th. The league where the quality is so bad that the winning team is  rightly required to go through FOUR qualification rounds for Champions League and then is guaranteed to finish no better than 3rd. The league so bad it is in the company of Israeli and Belarussian leagues.

The number of people who like or support something is no guarantee of the quality. Everyone knows that.

You mention the money disparity as being the reason, but how much money is in the Ukranian, Danish, Cypriot, Croatian or Serbian leagues? Yet they're all ranked higher than Scotland are. CYPRUS for goodness sake. They've only got a population of 850k         That's only a wee bit bigger than the population of Greater Glasgow.

Rangers and Celtic have to take a big share of the responsibility for the dismal standard of the league. They constantly crow on about the lack of competition in the league and how they need to move to another league, but are the first to asset strip the teams who could provide competition to them as soon as any player from an opposition team shows a bit of promise. Scott Bain, Glenn Kamara, Johnny Hayes, Lewis Morgan, Jack Hendry, Jamie Murphy etc. They've always done it, and I'm sure they always will, but they can't complain about the standard of the league when they are the ones making other teams less competitive.


If they actually left those players in those clubs and developed more of their own players, they might actually get a decent game now and again and might therefore be better prepared and not get their arses handed to them as soon as they play a game against better opposition in Europe.

There absolutely is a downward spiral for Scottish football, anyone can see that. Money is only one part of it. There's much more you could address before blaming money.

[JAS]

JAS, who cares how many losers want to buy a ticket to watch Rangers for a season?

I'm talking about the quality of Scottish Football, the league which has nosedived from being ranked 8 in Europe to being ranked 20th. The league where the quality is so bad that the winning team is  rightly required to go through FOUR qualification rounds for Champions League and then is guaranteed to finish no better than 3rd. The league so bad it is in the company of Israeli and Belarussian leagues.

The number of people who like or support something is no guarantee of the quality. Everyone knows that.

You mention the money disparity as being the reason, but how much money is in the Ukranian, Danish, Cypriot, Croatian or Serbian leagues? Yet they're all ranked higher than Scotland are. CYPRUS for goodness sake. They've only got a population of 850k         That's only a wee bit bigger than the population of Greater Glasgow.

Rangers and Celtic have to take a big share of the responsibility for the dismal standard of the league. They constantly crow on about the lack of competition in the league and how they need to move to another league, but are the first to asset strip the teams who could provide competition to them as soon as any player from an opposition team shows a bit of promise. Scott Bain, Glenn Kamara, Johnny Hayes, Lewis Morgan, Jack Hendry, Jamie Murphy etc. They've always done it, and I'm sure they always will, but they can't complain about the standard of the league when they are the ones making other teams less competitive.


If they actually left those players in those clubs and developed more of their own players, they might actually get a decent game now and again and might therefore be better prepared and not get their arses handed to them as soon as they play a game against better opposition in Europe.

There absolutely is a downward spiral for Scottish football, anyone can see that. Money is only one part of it. There's much more you could address before blaming money.

It’s not a question of who cares, it’s pointing out facts to counter your “downward spiral” comment which you’ve now made more specific to quality and comparison with other leagues. Yes there is a disparity in where Scottish football was and where it is now. You seem to be asserting rather bizarrely that the reason Scottish football is Poopie and can’t compete with the likes of Cyprus etc is because the top 2 raid the rest for their best players (which was a prevalent practice in the 60s and 70s when they were winning stuff in Europe.
Yes the Old form should take more responsibility but that’s quite difficult in an association .
set up where anything they want to do will be voted down 38-2.
The reason for the dramatic temporary fall in the coefficient is that most coefficient points come from the old firm, so in 2012, whatever the rights and wrongs of it, Celtic couldnt resist joining in the petty jealousy and joined in condemning Rangers to the bottom tier (I’d guess under the same circumstances Rangers would have done the same). You have a 2 horse race and you shoot a horse what do you think is gonna happen to the race??? The Aberdeen’s, Hearts Kilmarnock etc, with the best will in the world aren’t going to pile up coefficient points. It’s a pretty safe bet their European adventures are over before the kids go back to school. So there’s been a decline meaning that BOTH the old firm now have more banana skins to negotiate before they get to the relative stability of the group stages of the European comps. In terms of European comps they are now geared much more toward the big 5 leagues for commercial reasons and no matter which way you cut it, it’s now harder, much harder for big clubs from lesser countries to make and sustain a big European presence. When was the last time a team outside the big 5 won the CL?...and taking the special ones win out, when was it before that? Yes Ajax gave it a good go this year but look what’s happening to them now, the big money vultures from the big leagues are picking over the carcass of a potentially great side... I guess it’s a kind of pan European version of what happens in Scotland with the old firm.

[super_realist]

JAS, I was clearly talking about the standard of Scottish football. It's terrible and if you don't think the standard of Scottish football is going downhill fast then you're blind or in denial.  The number of people stupid enough to buy a season ticket for that drivel is irrelevant to whether the league is in decline or not.

I didn't say that the top two asset stripping the rest of the league is THE reason for it going downhill, it's PART of it, just as lack of money compared to other leagues is ONLY PART OF IT.

It wasn't Celtic who sent Rangers down to the third tier (rightly so) it was the RULES OF THE LEAGUE.
The SPL was going downhill BEFORE Rangers ended up there anyway. Celtic and Rangers were regularly getting their arses handed to them in Europe. Remember Malmo, Artmedia Bratislava and Maribor? Rangers even got beaten by a bunch of shopkeepers and postmen in Progres Niederhorn, so don't blame it on Rangers not being in Europe, because when they have been in Europe (since they got back up) they are frequently a complete embarrassment.

I didn't claim that the SPL couldn't compare with Cyprus, I said they were the peer group of the SPL. How bad is the SPL that it ranks alongside those leagues?

It's not difficult for Celtic and Rangers to stop asset stripping other clubs, they simply have to look elsewhere, but they won't because ultimately they don't care about the standard of the league, they only care about winning leagues with the value of a milk bottle top which is absolutely tragic. There's dozens of other leagues they could get their players from (or perhaps they could actually develop their own?????) without affecting how competitive the league is. The standard of the league and the lack of competition only suits them as an argument when they are seeking to leave, but who else would want them in their league?


It's a typically Scottish attitude, doing the same thing year in year out, but somehow expecting to be better.
Scottish Football is only going one way, and that's getting worse and worse.

I don't and wouldn't expect a team outside of the top 5 to win the CL, and I certainly wouldn't expect Celtic to, I don't even expect Celtic to qualify for the Champions League these days. There's a very real chance that they won't. I heard Celtic fans saying they could win the Europa League last year and they were genuinely serious. That's how deluded Old Firm fans are. They are terrible, and how many fans you have makes no difference to how good you are. Celtic and Rangers only have a big fan base, in footballing terms they are sticklebacks in Lake Baikal.

[westisbest]

I wouldn’t call those people buying season tickets stupid. I’d use the word loyal. Regardless of what division your team is. A fan follows their club through thick and thin.

They love that particular club and want keep supporting them.
Nothing stupid with that in my book.

[Roller_Coaster]

I wouldn’t call those people buying season tickets stupid. I’d use the word loyal. Regardless of what division your team is. A fan follows their club through thick and thin.

They love that particular club and want keep supporting them.
Nothing stupid with that in my book.

Agreed in the main. Although supporting anyone that's not QPR is, frankly, stupid.

yes - anyone can quote this, strikethrough the words "anyone that's not" and tell me they've fixed it for me

[westisbest]

I wouldn’t call those people buying season tickets stupid. I’d use the word loyal. Regardless of what division your team is. A fan follows their club through thick and thin.

They love that particular club and want keep supporting them.
Nothing stupid with that in my book.

Agreed in the main. Although supporting anyone that's not QPR is, frankly, stupid.

yes - anyone can quote this, strikethrough the words "anyone that's not" and tell me they've fixed it for me

Loftus road is one of my favourite away days.
Like the small old grounds. Also enjoy having a few pints in Shepherds Bush.
Last time I was there was when we won 2-1 two seasons ago.
Adomah scores both.

Stayed the night and we had a good laugh with some QPR fans.

[JAS]

JAS, I was clearly talking about the standard of Scottish football. It's terrible and if you don't think the standard of Scottish football is going downhill fast then you're blind or in denial.  The number of people stupid enough to buy a season ticket for that drivel is irrelevant to whether the league is in decline or not.

I didn't say that the top two asset stripping the rest of the league is THE reason for it going downhill, it's PART of it, just as lack of money compared to other leagues is ONLY PART OF IT.

It wasn't Celtic who sent Rangers down to the third tier (rightly so) it was the RULES OF THE LEAGUE.
The SPL was going downhill BEFORE Rangers ended up there anyway. Celtic and Rangers were regularly getting their arses handed to them in Europe. Remember Malmo, Artmedia Bratislava and Maribor? Rangers even got beaten by a bunch of shopkeepers and postmen in Progres Niederhorn, so don't blame it on Rangers not being in Europe, because when they have been in Europe (since they got back up) they are frequently a complete embarrassment.

I didn't claim that the SPL couldn't compare with Cyprus, I said they were the peer group of the SPL. How bad is the SPL that it ranks alongside those leagues?

It's not difficult for Celtic and Rangers to stop asset stripping other clubs, they simply have to look elsewhere, but they won't because ultimately they don't care about the standard of the league, they only care about winning leagues with the value of a milk bottle top which is absolutely tragic. There's dozens of other leagues they could get their players from (or perhaps they could actually develop their own?????) without affecting how competitive the league is. The standard of the league and the lack of competition only suits them as an argument when they are seeking to leave, but who else would want them in their league?


It's a typically Scottish attitude, doing the same thing year in year out, but somehow expecting to be better.
Scottish Football is only going one way, and that's getting worse and worse.

I don't and wouldn't expect a team outside of the top 5 to win the CL, and I certainly wouldn't expect Celtic to, I don't even expect Celtic to qualify for the Champions League these days. There's a very real chance that they won't. I heard Celtic fans saying they could win the Europa League last year and they were genuinely serious. That's how deluded Old Firm fans are. They are terrible, and how many fans you have makes no difference to how good you are. Celtic and Rangers only have a big fan base, in footballing terms they are sticklebacks in Lake Baikal.

Jeez it can be hard work debating with people with closed minds. I never said the standard wasn't terrible, it is clearly dire and yes money (lack of it) is part of the problem, as was Rangers demise. There had been a gradual decline (yes even during the decade where both reached the uefa cup final) but that gradual decline where I would say both the old firm were coming to terms with having to curtail unsustainable spending suddenly became a jump off a cliff edge in 2012. The arguments about the legality & validity of HMRCs actions can rumble on but as an aside many premiership clubs used EBTs, Celtic also used one with Juninho. They were simply trying to bring better players in to further their ambitions which in turn if sustained would have made the league more competitive and more marketable, even neutrals would have to be extremely churlish to say the likes of Gascoigne, Laudrup, Ron & Frank De Boer, Larsson, Moravcik, Petrov, Juninho weren't entertaining compared to who pull on those jerseys now.

I would concede that I'd rather see a strong Hibs/Hearts/Aberdeen/Kilmarnock etc, of course I would but what ambition do those clubs really have. Rangers built an academy with great facilities to bring on young players, you can argue about how successful or otherwise it's been but the ambition to invest in youth was there (probably because they knew going for the De Boers, the Flo's etc wasn't sustainable - clearly it spectacularly wasn't). There is a case for saying Scottish football does go through phases where the OF plunder the rest of Scotland for the best players to the detriment of the game in general. Once it started to become clear the money was drying up and the cross hairs of HMRC were focussed on them Rangers went back to more domestic recruitment.

Of course how many fans you have in a league like the Scottish league has a direct bearing on how good you are. How come Stenhousemuir haven't been champions? Have they just been unlucky in not unearthing a Fergie or Stein like figure? No because on average gates of about 300 how many talented ambitious players or managers would want to go there? When Rangers started again in 2012 they romped back up through the leagues despite their squad being decimated when they hit the rocks. They're still not back to where they were. Rebuilding from the ground up takes time and they've made mistakes along the way, they've also gambled but where they are now suggests they are still going forward. They had 14 games in Europe last season, consolidation this year would be group stage again and maybe progressing from it. Fanbase DOES matter and one good thing about Scottish football is that that is still true, the big leagues have lost that as they are subsumed by TV money. The fan base has a bearing, in a sense it sets a baseline to determine the ambition of a club. Personally I'd rather the Old Firm had the financial equilibrium of the Liverpools and Chelseas rather than a bigger fanbase but that's not going to happen, they just have to make the best of what they have.

[dynamark]

Last time I was down QPR way Grenfell tower was sadly looming quite close by.
Just looking through Leicester fixture before booking holiday and one month we only have one home game
Had a couple of hours at Holinwell yesterday and what a lovely course/place

[beninho]

Realist, do you even like football? You dont support a team, and clearly hate Scottish football and the premier league. You must hate the spanish and German league what with the big clubs buying up the best talent from the smaller clubs on a regular basis, in fact thats pretty much every league!

Anyway, after your moan about Wan Bisakks you must be going mental after the joao felix deal?

[beninho]

And anyone who gives up gollowing a team because they become a bit rubbish is not really a fan.

[super_realist]

JAS, I was clearly talking about the standard of Scottish football. It's terrible and if you don't think the standard of Scottish football is going downhill fast then you're blind or in denial.  The number of people stupid enough to buy a season ticket for that drivel is irrelevant to whether the league is in decline or not.

I didn't say that the top two asset stripping the rest of the league is THE reason for it going downhill, it's PART of it, just as lack of money compared to other leagues is ONLY PART OF IT.

It wasn't Celtic who sent Rangers down to the third tier (rightly so) it was the RULES OF THE LEAGUE.
The SPL was going downhill BEFORE Rangers ended up there anyway. Celtic and Rangers were regularly getting their arses handed to them in Europe. Remember Malmo, Artmedia Bratislava and Maribor? Rangers even got beaten by a bunch of shopkeepers and postmen in Progres Niederhorn, so don't blame it on Rangers not being in Europe, because when they have been in Europe (since they got back up) they are frequently a complete embarrassment.

I didn't claim that the SPL couldn't compare with Cyprus, I said they were the peer group of the SPL. How bad is the SPL that it ranks alongside those leagues?

It's not difficult for Celtic and Rangers to stop asset stripping other clubs, they simply have to look elsewhere, but they won't because ultimately they don't care about the standard of the league, they only care about winning leagues with the value of a milk bottle top which is absolutely tragic. There's dozens of other leagues they could get their players from (or perhaps they could actually develop their own?????) without affecting how competitive the league is. The standard of the league and the lack of competition only suits them as an argument when they are seeking to leave, but who else would want them in their league?


It's a typically Scottish attitude, doing the same thing year in year out, but somehow expecting to be better.
Scottish Football is only going one way, and that's getting worse and worse.

I don't and wouldn't expect a team outside of the top 5 to win the CL, and I certainly wouldn't expect Celtic to, I don't even expect Celtic to qualify for the Champions League these days. There's a very real chance that they won't. I heard Celtic fans saying they could win the Europa League last year and they were genuinely serious. That's how deluded Old Firm fans are. They are terrible, and how many fans you have makes no difference to how good you are. Celtic and Rangers only have a big fan base, in footballing terms they are sticklebacks in Lake Baikal.

Jeez it can be hard work debating with people with closed minds. I never said the standard wasn't terrible, it is clearly dire and yes money (lack of it) is part of the problem, as was Rangers demise. There had been a gradual decline (yes even during the decade where both reached the uefa cup final) but that gradual decline where I would say both the old firm were coming to terms with having to curtail unsustainable spending suddenly became a jump off a cliff edge in 2012. The arguments about the legality & validity of HMRCs actions can rumble on but as an aside many premiership clubs used EBTs, Celtic also used one with Juninho. They were simply trying to bring better players in to further their ambitions which in turn if sustained would have made the league more competitive and more marketable, even neutrals would have to be extremely churlish to say the likes of Gascoigne, Laudrup, Ron & Frank De Boer, Larsson, Moravcik, Petrov, Juninho weren't entertaining compared to who pull on those jerseys now.

I would concede that I'd rather see a strong Hibs/Hearts/Aberdeen/Kilmarnock etc, of course I would but what ambition do those clubs really have. Rangers built an academy with great facilities to bring on young players, you can argue about how successful or otherwise it's been but the ambition to invest in youth was there (probably because they knew going for the De Boers, the Flo's etc wasn't sustainable - clearly it spectacularly wasn't). There is a case for saying Scottish football does go through phases where the OF plunder the rest of Scotland for the best players to the detriment of the game in general. Once it started to become clear the money was drying up and the cross hairs of HMRC were focussed on them Rangers went back to more domestic recruitment.

Of course how many fans you have in a league like the Scottish league has a direct bearing on how good you are. How come Stenhousemuir haven't been champions? Have they just been unlucky in not unearthing a Fergie or Stein like figure? No because on average gates of about 300 how many talented ambitious players or managers would want to go there? When Rangers started again in 2012 they romped back up through the leagues despite their squad being decimated when they hit the rocks. They're still not back to where they were. Rebuilding from the ground up takes time and they've made mistakes along the way, they've also gambled but where they are now suggests they are still going forward. They had 14 games in Europe last season, consolidation this year would be group stage again and maybe progressing from it. Fanbase DOES matter and one good thing about Scottish football is that that is still true, the big leagues have lost that as they are subsumed by TV money. The fan base has a bearing, in a sense it sets a baseline  to determine the ambition of a club. Personally I'd rather the Old Firm had the financial equilibrium of the Liverpools and Chelseas rather than a bigger fanbase but that's not going to happen, they just have to make the best of what they have.

Christ JAS, you adamantly claimed that the SPL WASN'T on a downward spiral. I simply pointed out HOW it is.
I'm talking about how many fans a team has in relation to the LEAGUE being terrible. Of course a large team is going to be better than East Stirling, but a large support doesn't mean the league isn't terrible and doesn't mean the league isn't on a downward spiral. It doesn't matter if there are 1,000,000 huns in Castle Grayskull every week. It doesn't improve the quality of the football.

The league has gone from 8th in Europe to 20th. What do you call that if not a decline?

Rangers didn't exactly "romp" through the leagues. They were stuck in the Championship for two seasons and it was only this year they got 2nd in the SPL. So 7 years to finish a distant second.

Why doesn't the SPL have good TV money? Because no one wants to watch such a terrible league in sufficient numbers to justify any TV company investing the money to make it worthwhile. You could say it's a Catch-22, there is no money in Scottish football because the standard is so rubbish, and the standard is rubbish because there's no money.

By the way, I noticed you ignored my comments about Artmedia, Malmo, Maribor, Progress Neidercorn etc. Do you think they're more wealthy than The Ugly Sisters? Of course they aren't.

I can't see it going any better unless there's radical change, such as summer football which might give them a foot up in Europe as they might actually be better prepared.

[kwinigolfer]

Premature to give Lampard the keys to the Chelsea kingdom?

But: Another bargain snapped up by Leicester in Perez and still reportedly in the hunt for Thielemans. Hope they get him.

Leicester for sure a top six contender, top three perhaps? Hope so.

[McLaren]

Kwini

Not sure from lamps perspective when he would ever get the chance agian. He could be a really good manager and finish bottom half of the championship with Derby such is th nature of that league. He should take this job while his stock is high.

From the Chelsea perspective he is the perfect antidote to an unpopular manager.

But the Chelsea model of manager appointments means he will probably only have two seasons to achieve anything.

[kwinigolfer]

Kwini

Not sure from lamps perspective when he would ever get the chance agian. He could be a really good manager and finish bottom half of the championship with Derby such is th nature of that league. He should take this job while his stock is high.

From the Chelsea perspective he is the perfect antidote to an unpopular manager.

But the Chelsea model of manager appointments means he will probably only have two seasons to achieve anything.

Not many top class managers see their team sink from two years of play-offs to "bottom half of the Championship".
But agree about yr other points; if he misses top four this season (50/50 at best?) I'd say that "two seasons" is wildly optimistic. But he'll never have to work again.
And nice to see a British manager get the chance.

[navyblueshorts]

Kwini

Not sure from lamps perspective when he would ever get the chance agian. He could be a really good manager and finish bottom half of the championship with Derby such is th nature of that league. He should take this job while his stock is high.

From the Chelsea perspective he is the perfect antidote to an unpopular manager.

But the Chelsea model of manager appointments means he will probably only have two seasons to achieve anything.

Not many top class managers see their team sink from two years of play-offs to "bottom half of the Championship".
But agree about yr other points; if he misses top four this season (50/50 at best?) I'd say that "two seasons" is wildly optimistic. But he'll never have to work again.
And nice to see a British manager get the chance.

He doesn't anyway. Can see why he's taken it, but way too soon. He has (almost) chuff all experience. Then again, who knows, maybe he's actually a Wenger or Fergusson(sp?) in disguise?

[kwinigolfer]

Yup,
Was just assuming he could possibly have squandered all the swag from the past 20 years.
But why the clamour for Lampard after a thoroughly average season at Derby?

[McLaren]

Kwini

You do takes things literally, I am not saying I predict he would have finished bottom half I was just making the point that the championship is tough and not all good managers in the league will get into the play offs or better.

[super_realist]

Kwini

You do takes things literally, I am not saying I predict he would have finished bottom half I was just making the point that the championship is tough and not all good managers in the league will get into the play offs or better.

There's the pot calling the kettle black.

[JAS]

Kwini

Not sure from lamps perspective when he would ever get the chance agian. He could be a really good manager and finish bottom half of the championship with Derby such is th nature of that league. He should take this job while his stock is high.

From the Chelsea perspective he is the perfect antidote to an unpopular manager.

But the Chelsea model of manager appointments means he will probably only have two seasons to achieve anything.

Not many top class managers see their team sink from two years of play-offs to "bottom half of the Championship".
But agree about yr other points; if he misses top four this season (50/50 at best?) I'd say that "two seasons" is wildly optimistic. But he'll never have to work again.
And nice to see a British manager get the chance.

He doesn't anyway. Can see why he's taken it, but way too soon. He has (almost) chuff all experience. Then again, who knows, maybe he's actually a Wenger or Fergusson(sp?) in disguise?

I’m not entirely sold on the need for experience and how you define what it should be. I think Chelsea are taking a gamble yes but...it’s not that unusual a gamble to take. What experience did Zidane have before Madrid?
What did Ferguson have before Aberdeen? (ok a few months at St Mirren). Obviously you can say that United would never have taken Ferguson from St Mirren and that Aberdeen was in effect his experience.
All a club is doing looking for experience is trying to derisk the choice and cover their arse (oh but he did a good job there before we went for him he was therefore a good choice) The flip side of that though can also mean if a guy was successful before and then isn’t, does that mean that the club should look at itself?? Didn’t AVB have a glowing CV when he came?
Looking back at Rangers as well, Paul LeGuen came with an excellent CV from France. Souness however had Zero management experience. Who had the bigger success/impact??

[dynamark]

Tielemans is done I'm told for Leicester.Lovely player
Just checked the irish leaderboard and Rock 9 under for the day then I realised he still has a par 5 to play .60 would be superb .Slight issue another round to go !

[super_realist]

Kwini

Not sure from lamps perspective when he would ever get the chance agian. He could be a really good manager and finish bottom half of the championship with Derby such is th nature of that league. He should take this job while his stock is high.

From the Chelsea perspective he is the perfect antidote to an unpopular manager.

But the Chelsea model of manager appointments means he will probably only have two seasons to achieve anything.

Not many top class managers see their team sink from two years of play-offs to "bottom half of the Championship".
But agree about yr other points; if he misses top four this season (50/50 at best?) I'd say that "two seasons" is wildly optimistic. But he'll never have to work again.
And nice to see a British manager get the chance.

He doesn't anyway. Can see why he's taken it, but way too soon. He has (almost) chuff all experience. Then again, who knows, maybe he's actually a Wenger or Fergusson(sp?) in disguise?

I’m not entirely sold on the need for experience and how you define what it should be. I think Chelsea are taking a gamble yes but...it’s not that unusual a gamble to take. What experience did Zidane have before Madrid?
What did Ferguson have before Aberdeen? (ok a few months at St Mirren). Obviously you can say that United would never have taken Ferguson from St Mirren and that Aberdeen was in effect his experience.
All a club is doing looking for experience is trying to derisk the choice and cover their arse (oh but he did a good job there before we went for him he was therefore a good choice) The flip side of that though can also mean if a guy was successful before and then isn’t, does that mean that the club should look at itself?? Didn’t AVB have a glowing CV when he came?
Looking back at Rangers as well, Paul LeGuen came with an excellent CV from France. Souness however had Zero management experience. Who had the bigger success/impact??

You could have put a stuffed dummy in charge of the huns during the Souness era and it still would have won that tinpot league. Celtic were virtually bankrupt.

[super_realist]

And anyone who gives up gollowing a team because they become a bit rubbish is not really a fan.

It's a case of logic. If you are paying for a product that gets worse and worse every year why would you keep buying it? It makes no sense.

People grow out of stuff. There's nothing in the manual of football supporters that says you have to "follow" the team until the day you die. That's such a ridiculous, patronising, parochial and childish view to take that you are stuck with the team and you MUST continue to support it regardless of how they are doing. Sounds like Islam in that you "can't" leave. ,

Sometimes you just lose interest in something, doesn't mean you weren't a "proper" supporter during the time it did hold your interest. I'm sure you've given up many many things in your life, doesn't mean you weren't a "true" participant during the time you took part though. That attitude is one of the reasons I don't like it any more, because someone else can claim only they know what makes a "true fan" Ram it. It's just a sport like any other, there's nothing special about being a football fan, and there's nothing special about giving it up. It doesn't make those who remain a fan any more virtuous.

If you give up smoking, does that mean you weren't a "true" smoker to begin with? Get stuffed.

[beninho]

So, realist, I gather you don't really care for football and don't follow a team. Thats fine. I follow a team who have been terrible and not so terrible, I haven't stopped following or supporting them. A lot of fans build an allegiance over time that is more then jusy are they good or are they bad.

Your not a football fan so I dont expect you to understand. But thanks for your moan, it added a lot.

[McLaren]

Super

Why are you wading into a football debate agian given you have never played or followed the game or really have any reason to care what goes on in football?

[JAS]

Kwini

Not sure from lamps perspective when he would ever get the chance agian. He could be a really good manager and finish bottom half of the championship with Derby such is th nature of that league. He should take this job while his stock is high.

From the Chelsea perspective he is the perfect antidote to an unpopular manager.

But the Chelsea model of manager appointments means he will probably only have two seasons to achieve anything.

Not many top class managers see their team sink from two years of play-offs to "bottom half of the Championship".
But agree about yr other points; if he misses top four this season (50/50 at best?) I'd say that "two seasons" is wildly optimistic. But he'll never have to work again.
And nice to see a British manager get the chance.

He doesn't anyway. Can see why he's taken it, but way too soon. He has (almost) chuff all experience. Then again, who knows, maybe he's actually a Wenger or Fergusson(sp?) in disguise?

I’m not entirely sold on the need for experience and how you define what it should be. I think Chelsea are taking a gamble yes but...it’s not that unusual a gamble to take. What experience did Zidane have before Madrid?
What did Ferguson have before Aberdeen? (ok a few months at St Mirren). Obviously you can say that United would never have taken Ferguson from St Mirren and that Aberdeen was in effect his experience.
All a club is doing looking for experience is trying to derisk the choice and cover their arse (oh but he did a good job there before we went for him he was therefore a good choice) The flip side of that though can also mean if a guy was successful before and then isn’t, does that mean that the club should look at itself?? Didn’t AVB have a glowing CV when he came?
Looking back at Rangers as well, Paul LeGuen came with an excellent CV from France. Souness however had Zero management experience. Who had the bigger success/impact??

You could have put a stuffed dummy in charge of the huns during the Souness era and it still would have won that tinpot league. Celtic were virtually bankrupt.

Super...Wasn’t really the main part of the point I was trying to make but thanks for further illustrating your “stuck record syndrome” criticism of the SPL.

Everyone else...The point I was trying to make before Super tried to throw the SPL under yet another bus was that whilst Chelsea may we’ll be taking a gamble on Lampard, there are other examples of where great players relatively inexperienced as managers can come in a do a job.
Frank’s biggest problem isn’t his own inexperience, it is the Chelsea heiarchy’s penchant for impatience. He kind of has a ready made excuse via the transfer ban (which I bet he’d rather not have) but inadvertently that should buy him some extra time.

[beninho]

Experience vs inexperienced. Managers have as much chance as each ither at any given club. Pep took ovet Barcelona after a year as b team boss. It was him or Jose. If you look at experience it should have been Jose, but the decision to take the inexperienced manager and put him in charge if an underperforming team worked out well!

Lampard could do well at Chelsea, but it wont be due to his experience.

[super_realist]

Kwini

Not sure from lamps perspective when he would ever get the chance agian. He could be a really good manager and finish bottom half of the championship with Derby such is th nature of that league. He should take this job while his stock is high.

From the Chelsea perspective he is the perfect antidote to an unpopular manager.

But the Chelsea model of manager appointments means he will probably only have two seasons to achieve anything.

Not many top class managers see their team sink from two years of play-offs to "bottom half of the Championship".
But agree about yr other points; if he misses top four this season (50/50 at best?) I'd say that "two seasons" is wildly optimistic. But he'll never have to work again.
And nice to see a British manager get the chance.

He doesn't anyway. Can see why he's taken it, but way too soon. He has (almost) chuff all experience. Then again, who knows, maybe he's actually a Wenger or Fergusson(sp?) in disguise?

I’m not entirely sold on the need for experience and how you define what it should be. I think Chelsea are taking a gamble yes but...it’s not that unusual a gamble to take. What experience did Zidane have before Madrid?
What did Ferguson have before Aberdeen? (ok a few months at St Mirren). Obviously you can say that United would never have taken Ferguson from St Mirren and that Aberdeen was in effect his experience.
All a club is doing looking for experience is trying to derisk the choice and cover their arse (oh but he did a good job there before we went for him he was therefore a good choice) The flip side of that though can also mean if a guy was successful before and then isn’t, does that mean that the club should look at itself?? Didn’t AVB have a glowing CV when he came?
Looking back at Rangers as well, Paul LeGuen came with an excellent CV from France. Souness however had Zero management experience. Who had the bigger success/impact??

You could have put a stuffed dummy in charge of the huns during the Souness era and it still would have won that tinpot league. Celtic were virtually bankrupt.

Super...Wasn’t really the main part of the point I was trying to make but thanks for further illustrating your “stuck record syndrome” criticism of the SPL.

Everyone else...The point I was trying to make before Super tried to throw the SPL under yet another bus was that whilst Chelsea may we’ll be taking a gamble on Lampard, there are other examples of where great players relatively inexperienced as managers can come in a do a job.
Frank’s biggest problem isn’t his own inexperience, it is the Chelsea heiarchy’s penchant for impatience. He kind of has a ready made excuse via the transfer ban (which I bet he’d rather not have) but inadvertently that should buy him some extra time.

Well it is perfectly relevant to the conversation and wasn't slating the SPL (dreadful as it is) but it was highlighting a massive difference and issue with your analogy. There's no point in holding up Souness as an example of how a manager can succeed when it's not remotely a decent comparison with the position that Lampard will face at Chelsea. Souness was up against no one, Lampard has 6-7 teams who could potentially finish above him.
If you're going to make a comparison, comparing a one horse league to one which has a lot more teams to worry about isn't the best way to make an argument.

[super_realist]

Super

Why are you wading into a football debate agian given you have never played or followed the game or really have any reason to care what goes on in football?

Who says I've never played Mac? Probably still better than you are or ever were.

[beninho]

£40m for Leicester for Tielmans. Seems excessive, but if he succeeds maybe he goes for 90m in 2 years time.

Leicester really wanting that 7th place finish! It will be tight agaibst Wolces and Everton though.

[beninho]

Realist, can you just confirm.

Do you like Football?
Have you ever followed a team?

Do you have any actual football knowledge?
What kit did you wear when you played?

[kwinigolfer]

Leicester have built a terrific young team and must be at least even money to crack the Top Six. Don't reckon they'd miss Maguire that much, sure they'd rather have 80 mil. But they would need to acquire a Number Five, Wes Morgan won't cut it this season, or last for that matter.

[westisbest]

Think he followed Aberdeen from seeing a post a while ago.

[McLaren]

Super

You talk about football as if you don't watch or play the game.

[super_realist]

Super

You talk about football as if you don't watch or play the game.

And you think you talk about football as if you know something? In fact, you write as if you know nothing about anything Mac. It is as if you've lifted it off Wikipedia.

[dynamark]

Kwini Id let Maguire go for the right money always felt he was a bit overrated goes walkabout upfield but does get the odd goal,
We have Jonny Evans who did well last year, Soyuncu who had very little game time ,another lad on loan at Celtic(Benkovic?)a Rumanian lad who played well for their under 23s in Euros and Dan Amartey who has been out injured plus Morgan if needed.
But I don't think they need the money .Recently renewed the duty free franchises in Thailand and have spent the summer throwing cash at horseracing.

[JAS]

Think he followed Aberdeen from seeing a post a while ago.

Close West, but it was Dundee Utd I believe hence the overflowing anti old firm angst/chip on the shoulder, which to be fair is pretty much the same at Aberdeen and elsewhere.

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