Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[McLaren]

First topic message reminder :

Kwini

It amazes me that a professional footballer can end up one footed. Just practice with your weak foot every day.

I remember spending a summer playing with only my left foot in the garden. Came back next season two footed.

[navyblueshorts]

Dyna

Maybe try rephrasing the first part of your post because at the moment it makes no sense.

Try thinking?

Dyna: he didn't even get the bit correct about pork pies to Thailand etc either, by the sound of it. Then again, what can one expect from an inveterate liar like Johnson?

A porky?

[super_realist]

Not looking good for Bury and Bolton sadly.

The chickens are coming home to roost. If a business was run as badly as football clubs were they'd have been closed years ago. Bolton and Bury have done exceptionally well to last as long as they have. No doubt they won't be the last, there are too many football teams.

Are there too many? Probably yes but are there many more than say 30 years ago? in terms of league clubs no, there are roughly the same but has society changed such that that number is no longer sustainable?

Every now and then a club will fold, it’s happened before and will happen again. What makes it a bit more curious at the current time is that there are billions being poured into the game like never before. In football, just like society the money gravitates to the haves and the have nots are left to struggle for the crumbs. The haves can be profligate spending millions on whoever they like every 6 months.
The Boltons & Burys of this world have to cut their cloth accordingly, they are a million miles from challenging for top honours. They can only eke out a survival and look on in envy.
The gap between the haves (upper class) and the have nots (working class) is huge and getting bigger. The ones with the real dilemma are the middle class (those that yo-yo between the premiership and the Championship). For them to bridge that gap and become an established “have” is getting more and more difficult (without dodgy money from a dubious benefactor). They have to speculate to accumulate ( take on debt) to realise their ambitions, if they gamble and miss,  it can do real long term damage. Leeds are probably one of the best earlier illustrations of this, Bolton are more current example, down a level perhaps.  Personally I think there will be a lot more Bolton’s and Burys.

People should be asking the questions now. Is this the way we want football to go? Are we happy that the top clubs are becoming so so distant from the feeder clubs and from the grass roots? What will be the long term effect of that?
Not advocating Socialism for football, just illustrating the effect of free market capitalism on the very fabric of football and how it kind of mirrors society.

I think the point is that many clubs these days have unrealistic expectations and simply don't live within their means whether that be Dundee, Livingston, Rangers, Bury, Darlington, Coventry, Bolton etc and they try to finance themselves into a position where they don't belong and cannot sustain.
It's laughable that when you live on a knife edge in regards to finance you have players on high wages when you reside well below a level that merits such wages in terms of league position, and following relegation it gets even more serious due to reduced income and long contracts.

There's no business in the world where they would allow salaries to make up such a large percentage with such an insecure source to pay for it. Any club that faces financial peril has ended up there through their own stupidity, greed and pipe dreaming idiocy.
Good riddance to Bury and Bolton, you weren't crying or concerned when you were putting yourself into penu
ry. The only people I feel sorry for are the staff who will be out of a job.

[dynamark]

Westi take your bats next time .Belton Woods is very good we are going there next year for our seniors trip.Plus Greetham Valley is quite a course.Rutland County overlooking the reservoir.
They still like their Rutland identity round those parts.
EFL had a statement today and quite rightly they said we run a football league not football clubs.
They(the clubs) are individual businesses with the same rules as any other.Sad though.

[kwinigolfer]

EFL had a statement today and quite rightly they said we run a football league not football clubs.
They(the clubs) are individual businesses with the same rules as any other.Sad though.

All very well for the EFL to say that but they are surely the people who vet potential owners? Portsmouth had a revolving door ownership of scumbags and oligarchs - difficult to see how the League allows that to happen.

I'd like to see the Prem and EFL work much more closely together more to filter more money down through the leagues, not to subsidise flawed business plans, but to compensate somehow for the work they do as feeders in the food chain on the path to the galactico clubs and the Premier Leagues wealth.
And these clubs, large as well as small, are integral parts of communities, so local government should be quantifying their value and working to partner appropriately - again, not to subsidise.
I, unfortunately, am old enough to remember Accrington's 60's demise and the comments later by City elders that they hadn't properly recognised/appreciated the value of name recognition in having AS's scores, seeing "Accrington" in the paper on an almost daily basis.

Something is seriously wrong when the first one hears of emergencies is when the legal process alarm bells are already ringing (and I know they've been ringing in Bolton for way too long).

[super_realist]

People are pretending that suddenly there's a crisis Kwini, those clubs and many others have been in trouble for years.

[kwinigolfer]

People are pretending that suddenly there's a crisis Kwini, those clubs and many others have been in trouble for years.

No, I understand that, hence my PFC reference.
But it doesn't mean that it's too late to do something about it.
It seems the EFL (particularly) is too often reactive, and not in front of potential issues. While the Premier League shuts its eyes and pretends this couldn't happen to their little clique (which it did with regard to PFC and probably others).

[Be_the_ball]

Trotters safe, glad to see that. Probably be in the same spot next year for the reasons JAS gives. But it would have been a real shame to see then gone.

[kwinigolfer]

They'll almost certainly be in Division 2 next year, 12 points in arrears as they'll resume their season.

[super_realist]

Do Bolton own their stadium or are they like Coventry just tenants?

[dynamark]

Super if they 'own' it you can be sure its mortgaged to the hilt and way beyond.
At Leicester our stadium was owned by an American teachers pension fund initially until King Power bought it back we have been very lucky with our recent ownership.The steelworks now owned by the turkish army pensions is another example.
Wheres Diggers he must be self igniting about now with the politics

[JAS]

I would have thought a lot more than Diggers will be self igniting. Not just at the crass stupidity of Johnson but the cheering on by working class idiots who somehow think he’s doing a good job because he’s being decisive (personally I’d replace the c with a v in decisive). He’s taking a huge gamble and it doesn’t matter one iota to him if it comes off or not, the entitled prick is so minted that if he is kicked out of a job because of his stupidity, unlike millions of others he and his like have affected, he won’t put any strain on his local bank will he?

All those Brexiteers bleeding on about democracy have suddenly changed the record!!

[McLaren]

Super

You seem to think nobody has noticed how perilously football clubs are being run? When the point is that for a long time the opposite has been true. Football clubs are bought as vanity projects or to milk potential TV money, so no one is surprised Bury went under just annoyed that there is no process to stop this happening to clubs. It's not like most clubs are owned and run by people who care about the long term health of the club. If the can propel a club to the championship or epl and reap the rewards then the risk of getting players on big wages is "worth it".

[navyblueshorts]

I would have thought a lot more than Diggers will be self igniting. Not just at the crass stupidity of Johnson but the cheering on by working class idiots who somehow think he’s doing a good job because he’s being decisive (personally I’d replace the c with a v in decisive). He’s taking a huge gamble and it doesn’t matter one iota to him if it comes off or not, the entitled prick is so minted that if he is kicked out of a job because of his stupidity, unlike millions of others he and his like have affected, he won’t put any strain on his local bank will he?

All those Brexiteers bleeding on about democracy have suddenly changed the record!!

Agree with the general tenor, JAS, but the above is one reason why opinions are now so entrenched. If you're a part of the class whose jobs have largely gone since Thatcher, why not take a punt on Brexit? See Trump on this as well. If the majority of jobs largely lost to 'globalisation' are those not requiring a University Degree etc, did they vote for Brexit because they're 'idiots', or simply because their way of life is the one most trashed by 'globalisation'?

[dynamark]

Jas please I'm no working class idiot but I'm not cheering anyone on either -but this has to be done - MPs have not done what the referendum instructed . Not sure there is too much of a problem getting a decent job these days either or a class issue .Take somewhere like Mansfield as an example former mining area now many relatively thriving industries.
Well see what happens next few weeks nothing to be afraid of

[super_realist]

I would have thought a lot more than Diggers will be self igniting. Not just at the crass stupidity of Johnson but the cheering on by working class idiots who somehow think he’s doing a good job because he’s being decisive (personally I’d replace the c with a v in decisive). He’s taking a huge gamble and it doesn’t matter one iota to him if it comes off or not, the entitled prick is so minted that if he is kicked out of a job because of his stupidity, unlike millions of others he and his like have affected, he won’t put any strain on his local bank will he?

All those Brexiteers bleeding on about democracy have suddenly changed the record!!

Why? To spell a word that doesn't exist? it's DIVISIVE.

[super_realist]

Super

You seem to think nobody has noticed how perilously football clubs are being run? When the point is that for a long time the opposite has been true. Football clubs are bought as vanity projects or to milk potential TV money, so no one is surprised Bury went under just annoyed that there is no process to stop this happening to clubs. It's not like most clubs are owned and run by people who care about the long term health of the club. If the can propel a club to the championship or epl and reap the rewards then the risk of getting players on big wages is "worth it".

The majority from what I can tell are very poorly run, but people only seem to complain about it when their club is about to go tits up rather than when it's getting into trouble but getting some sort of measurable "success" in the table, league, cup or whatever. Why should anyone other that the club be responsible for how the club is run? Was there some sort of motoring referee who decided that Rover and SAAB were doing a bad job of running their companies and stopped them from bankrupting their businesses? Maybe there should have been some arbitrator in the high street to stop Woolworths and all those other terrible shops from closing down. How ridiculous. It's evolution in a business sense. Survival of the fittest. The world is not a worse place because Bury are no more.

Why are people always looking for someone else to solve their problems? If your club, business, charity or whatever is run badly it's the institution with their hands on the finances responsibility to sort it out, not a 3rd party overseeing the sector.

[kwinigolfer]

I would have thought a lot more than Diggers will be self igniting. Not just at the crass stupidity of Johnson but the cheering on by working class idiots who somehow think he’s doing a good job because he’s being decisive (personally I’d replace the c with a v in decisive). He’s taking a huge gamble and it doesn’t matter one iota to him if it comes off or not, the entitled prick is so minted that if he is kicked out of a job because of his stupidity, unlike millions of others he and his like have affected, he won’t put any strain on his local bank will he?

All those Brexiteers bleeding on about democracy have suddenly changed the record!!

Agree with the general tenor, JAS, but the above is one reason why opinions are now so entrenched. If you're a part of the class whose jobs have largely gone since Thatcher, why not take a punt on Brexit? See Trump on this as well. If the majority of jobs largely lost to 'globalisation' are those not requiring a University Degree etc, did they vote for Brexit because they're 'idiots', or simply because their way of life is the one most trashed by 'globalisation'?

"See Trump on this . . . . . "

Those taking a punt on Trump have been largely disappointed, and they'll be even more disappointed when it's them that have to pay the lion's share of his projected $1Trillion deficit. Even his job numbers have proved to be a sham, inflated over the past year by 500,000.
I bet Trump was busy egging Johnson on last weekend - as JAS says, if everything goes belly up, he won't care, he'll just be a failed ex-Prime Minister. They should send him and Cameron to the gallows. And Drumpf of course.

[JAS]

I would have thought a lot more than Diggers will be self igniting. Not just at the crass stupidity of Johnson but the cheering on by working class idiots who somehow think he’s doing a good job because he’s being decisive (personally I’d replace the c with a v in decisive). He’s taking a huge gamble and it doesn’t matter one iota to him if it comes off or not, the entitled prick is so minted that if he is kicked out of a job because of his stupidity, unlike millions of others he and his like have affected, he won’t put any strain on his local bank will he?

All those Brexiteers bleeding on about democracy have suddenly changed the record!!

Why? To spell a word that doesn't exist? it's DIVISIVE.

Meanwhile at the hairsplitting world champs...Super makes good progress.

[JAS]

Jas please I'm no working class idiot but  I'm not cheering anyone on either -but this has to be done - MPs have not done what the referendum instructed . Not sure there is too much of a problem getting a decent job these days either or a class issue .Take somewhere like Mansfield as an example former mining area now many relatively thriving industries.
Well see what happens next few weeks nothing to be afraid of

...Dyna I believe you and neither am I (I originally voted leave too). Don’t wish to retread too much over old ground but most people seem to forget that the referendum (regardless of how reckless arse Cameron framed it) was advisory not an instruction, we live in a Parliamentary democracy, we elect MPs to run the country’s affairs. I would concede that in the 2017 GE the main opposition were saying they would honour the result, they didn’t elaborate, nor can you in a soundbite election campaign on all the potential detail that COULD cause a different path to be taken. Of course everybody also assumes that all votes for all parties in the 2017 GE were based on a parties Brexit position. The reality is No, certainly from my perspective I see Brexit as a HUGE distraction from much more important issues (NHS, education, housing, poverty etc) and on all of those topics, the entitled Frak currently running the country haven’t a clue how to deal with and don’t care 2 hoots about anyway (other than voter perception of how they’re dealing with it).
So getting back to the point NO, absolutely not, Right wing dodging of established democratic process is how dictatorships start.
The crazy irony is that many people voting for Brexit are doing so in the misguided belief that they're bringing back control to the UK parliament...but here they are wanting to bypass it...utterly bizarre!!!

[super_realist]

Jas please I'm no working class idiot but  I'm not cheering anyone on either -but this has to be done - MPs have not done what the referendum instructed . Not sure there is too much of a problem getting a decent job these days either or a class issue .Take somewhere like Mansfield as an example former mining area now many relatively thriving industries.
Well see what happens next few weeks nothing to be afraid of

...Dyna I believe you and neither am I  (I originally voted leave too). Don’t wish to retread too much over old ground but most people seem to forget that the referendum (regardless of how reckless arse Cameron framed it) was advisory not an instruction, we live in a Parliamentary democracy, we elect MPs to run the country’s affairs. I would concede that in the 2017 GE the main opposition were saying they would honour the result, they didn’t elaborate, nor can you in a soundbite election campaign on all the potential detail that COULD cause a different path to be taken. Of course everybody also assumes that all votes for all parties in the 2017 GE were based on a parties Brexit position. The reality is No, certainly from my perspective I see Brexit as a HUGE distraction from much more important issues (NHS, education, housing, poverty etc) and on all of those topics, the entitled Frak currently running the country haven’t a clue how to deal with and don’t care 2 hoots about anyway (other than voter perception of how they’re dealing with it).
So getting back to the point NO, absolutely not, Right wing dodging of established democratic process is how dictatorships start.
The crazy irony is that many people voting for Brexit are doing so in the misguided belief that they're bringing  back control to the UK parliament...but here they are wanting to bypass it...utterly bizarre!!!

Corbyn's plans are hardly democratic, and now he's encouraging civil disobedience. I don't like what Johnson is doing, but how can anyone think that Corbyn's childish "cabinet" gathering in Church house has any credibility or democratic backing either? It's basically a putsch just to get his way through.

He keeps saying that he will do anything to stop a no deal referendum. Already a blatant lie, he voted against May's deal three times, so again he exposes himself to be just another dishonest MP.

[JAS]

I would have thought a lot more than Diggers will be self igniting. Not just at the crass stupidity of Johnson but the cheering on by working class idiots who somehow think he’s doing a good job because he’s being decisive (personally I’d replace the c with a v in decisive). He’s taking a huge gamble and it doesn’t matter one iota to him if it comes off or not, the entitled prick is so minted that if he is kicked out of a job because of his stupidity, unlike millions of others he and his like have affected, he won’t put any strain on his local bank will he?

All those Brexiteers bleeding on about democracy have suddenly changed the record!!

Agree with the general tenor, JAS, but the above is one reason why opinions are now so entrenched. If you're a part of the class whose jobs have largely gone since Thatcher, why not take a punt on Brexit? See Trump on this as well. If the majority of jobs largely lost to 'globalisation' are those not requiring a University Degree etc, did they vote for Brexit because they're 'idiots', or simply because their way of life is the one most trashed by 'globalisation'?

"See Trump on this . . . . . "

Those taking a punt on Trump have been largely disappointed, and they'll be even more disappointed when it's them that have to pay the lion's share of his projected $1Trillion deficit. Even his job numbers have proved to be a sham, inflated over the past year by 500,000.
I bet Trump was busy egging Johnson on last weekend - as JAS says, if everything goes belly up, he won't care, he'll just be a failed ex-Prime Minister. They should send him and Cameron to the gallows. And Drumpf of course.

“If you're a part of the class whose jobs have largely gone since Thatcher, why not take a punt on Brexit?”

Totally get that thinking and as Kwini highlights the same sentiments (albeit with No Brexit in the mix) is what drove people to take a punt on Trump.

If people actually stopped to think about it and look at how the jobs went, where they went, who benefitted (CRUCIAL!!) and how best to address it they’d realise that right wing populism NEVER works for the majority.
When jobs go or are under threat, the knee jerk reaction is to blame immigrants, or workers from countries where the jobs have gone. Actually, what is happening is that Capital is reducing its cost base by moving work to where it is cheaper. Like it or lump it, Capital has globalised and is organised, Labour as in organised Labour (not the Labour Party per se) is fractured and has most certainly not globalised. So Capital can take advantage and it has really filled its boots to overflowing over the past 4 decades. If Labour (ie. the working class masses) want to fight back then they must start uniting, that however would take decades if it ever were to happen so tactically the best that can be done is to elect credible center left governments that will rein back the worst excesses of free market capitalism, not destroy it as that hurts everyone but rein back the worst excesses by making global companies a bit more socially responsible in the countries where they operate.
Now, where do you start? Well that in essence is what made me think that leaving and weakening the EU would be a retrograde step. The EU “should” be a body that fights for those ideals, it currently isn’t and that’s what’s wrong, we should be empowering ourselves to change it, not walking away because we don’t like it’s current agenda.

[JAS]

Jas please I'm no working class idiot but  I'm not cheering anyone on either -but this has to be done - MPs have not done what the referendum instructed . Not sure there is too much of a problem getting a decent job these days either or a class issue .Take somewhere like Mansfield as an example former mining area now many relatively thriving industries.
Well see what happens next few weeks nothing to be afraid of

...Dyna I believe you and neither am I  (I originally voted leave too). Don’t wish to retread too much over old ground but most people seem to forget that the referendum (regardless of how reckless arse Cameron framed it) was advisory not an instruction, we live in a Parliamentary democracy, we elect MPs to run the country’s affairs. I would concede that in the 2017 GE the main opposition were saying they would honour the result, they didn’t elaborate, nor can you in a soundbite election campaign on all the potential detail that COULD cause a different path to be taken. Of course everybody also assumes that all votes for all parties in the 2017 GE were based on a parties Brexit position. The reality is No, certainly from my perspective I see Brexit as a HUGE distraction from much more important issues (NHS, education, housing, poverty etc) and on all of those topics, the entitled Frak currently running the country haven’t a clue how to deal with and don’t care 2 hoots about anyway (other than voter perception of how they’re dealing with it).
So getting back to the point NO, absolutely not, Right wing dodging of established democratic process is how dictatorships start.
The crazy irony is that many people voting for Brexit are doing so in the misguided belief that they're bringing  back control to the UK parliament...but here they are wanting to bypass it...utterly bizarre!!!

Corbyn's plans are hardly democratic, and now he's encouraging civil disobedience. I don't like what Johnson is doing, but how can anyone think that Corbyn's childish "cabinet" gathering in Church house has any credibility or democratic backing either? It's basically a putsch just to get his way through.

He keeps saying that he will do anything to stop a no deal referendum. Already a blatant lie, he voted against May's deal three times, so again he exposes himself to be just another dishonest MP.

I actually think highlighting a lack of trust or faith in one particular politician in the midst of the utter chaos we’re in is like looking at the Amazon rainforest fires and complaining about the quality of one particular firefighters hose.

[super_realist]

Yet that's exactly what you're doing, as usual you're bashing one side because of the party they represent but ignoring exactly the same anti-democratic behaviour of the politicians that you actually do like. British politics is a mess, and you can't really have a go at one side when the other is equally as guilty and inept. Both Corbyn (and McDonnel) and Johnson are truly vile people.

On the Amazon fires, they're nothing new, and not even especially bad. They happen all the time. Furthermore, the claims they are the "lungs of the earth" is also complete nonsense. They aren't responsible for 20% of the worlds oxygen at all.

[JAS]

Yet that's exactly what you're doing, as usual you're bashing one side because of the party they represent but ignoring exactly the same anti-democratic behaviour of the politicians that you actually do like. British politics is a mess, and you can't really have a go at one side when the other is equally as guilty and inept. Both Corbyn (and McDonnel) and Johnson are truly vile people.

On the Amazon fires, they're nothing new, and not even especially bad. They happen all the time. Furthermore, the claims they are the "lungs of the earth" is also complete nonsense. They aren't responsible for 20% of the worlds oxygen at all.

Yes I’m bashing the whole side because I believe their whole ethos is damaging to the very fabric of our society, fair enough I’ve criticised Johnson in particular both on the basis of his beliefs and his buffoon like personality.

You do however have to get away from the myth that I like Corbyn, I don’t. I think his leadership qualities (certainly what many believe as leadership qualities) are at best questionable. I’m not a Corbyn fan but there a recognition that his beliefs and his principles are more closely aligned to mine than certainly Johnson’s or indeed Swinson’s for that matter. Lucas is decent principled and it would be good to see the greens make significant progress under her but I don’t see her as a potential PM. Not sure why, I just don’t.

Btw the Amazon reference was an analogy :-p
I’m not in broad disagreement with you on what you say, I think the whole issue has been blown up as part of a narrative to put pressure on the Brazilian Prez to be more in line with western neoliberal agendas.

[super_realist]

Yet that's exactly what you're doing, as usual you're bashing one side because of the party they represent but ignoring exactly the same anti-democratic behaviour of the politicians that you actually do like. British politics is a mess, and you can't really have a go at one side when the other is equally as guilty and inept. Both Corbyn (and McDonnel) and Johnson are truly vile people.

On the Amazon fires, they're nothing new, and not even especially bad. They happen all the time. Furthermore, the claims they are the "lungs of the earth" is also complete nonsense. They aren't responsible for 20% of the worlds oxygen at all.

Yes I’m bashing the whole side because I believe their whole ethos is damaging to the very fabric of our society, fair enough I’ve criticised Johnson in particular both on the basis of his beliefs and his buffoon like personality.

You do however have to get away from the myth that I like Corbyn, I don’t. I think his leadership qualities (certainly what many believe as leadership qualities) are at best questionable. I’m not a Corbyn fan but there a recognition that his beliefs and his principles are more closely aligned to mine than certainly Johnson’s or indeed Swinson’s for that matter. Lucas is decent principled and it would be good to see the greens make significant progress under her but I don’t see her as a potential PM. Not sure why, I just don’t.

Btw the Amazon reference was an analogy :-p
I’m not in broad disagreement with you on what you say, I think the whole issue has been blown up as part of a narrative to put pressure on the Brazilian Prez to be more in line with western neoliberal agendas.

His beliefs and principles? Given how dodgy some of his beliefs are, you should probably let us know which of his beliefs and principles align with yours because there are plenty that you wouldn't want to be associated with.

[navyblueshorts]

I would have thought a lot more than Diggers will be self igniting. Not just at the crass stupidity of Johnson but the cheering on by working class idiots who somehow think he’s doing a good job because he’s being decisive (personally I’d replace the c with a v in decisive). He’s taking a huge gamble and it doesn’t matter one iota to him if it comes off or not, the entitled prick is so minted that if he is kicked out of a job because of his stupidity, unlike millions of others he and his like have affected, he won’t put any strain on his local bank will he?

All those Brexiteers bleeding on about democracy have suddenly changed the record!!

Agree with the general tenor, JAS, but the above is one reason why opinions are now so entrenched. If you're a part of the class whose jobs have largely gone since Thatcher, why not take a punt on Brexit? See Trump on this as well. If the majority of jobs largely lost to 'globalisation' are those not requiring a University Degree etc, did they vote for Brexit because they're 'idiots', or simply because their way of life is the one most trashed by 'globalisation'?

"See Trump on this . . . . . "

Those taking a punt on Trump have been largely disappointed, and they'll be even more disappointed when it's them that have to pay the lion's share of his projected $1Trillion deficit. Even his job numbers have proved to be a sham, inflated over the past year by 500,000.
I bet Trump was busy egging Johnson on last weekend - as JAS says, if everything goes belly up, he won't care, he'll just be a failed ex-Prime Minister. They should send him and Cameron to the gallows. And Drumpf of course.

Oh, I agree with that. Could argue that's likely to be the saddest outcome of Trump. They all believed his BS, possibly understandably given what's happened to the Rust Belt etc jobs in the recent past. He'll move on as if nothing happened, spouting off about being the greatest POTUS ever, leaving a trail of scheisse behind.

[navyblueshorts]

Jas please I'm no working class idiot but  I'm not cheering anyone on either -but this has to be done - MPs have not done what the referendum instructed . Not sure there is too much of a problem getting a decent job these days either or a class issue .Take somewhere like Mansfield as an example former mining area now many relatively thriving industries.
Well see what happens next few weeks nothing to be afraid of

...Dyna I believe you and neither am I  (I originally voted leave too). Don’t wish to retread too much over old ground but most people seem to forget that the referendum (regardless of how reckless arse Cameron framed it) was advisory not an instruction, we live in a Parliamentary democracy, we elect MPs to run the country’s affairs. I would concede that in the 2017 GE the main opposition were saying they would honour the result, they didn’t elaborate, nor can you in a soundbite election campaign on all the potential detail that COULD cause a different path to be taken. Of course everybody also assumes that all votes for all parties in the 2017 GE were based on a parties Brexit position. The reality is No, certainly from my perspective I see Brexit as a HUGE distraction from much more important issues (NHS, education, housing, poverty etc) and on all of those topics, the entitled Frak currently running the country haven’t a clue how to deal with and don’t care 2 hoots about anyway (other than voter perception of how they’re dealing with it).
So getting back to the point NO, absolutely not, Right wing dodging of established democratic process is how dictatorships start.
The crazy irony is that many people voting for Brexit are doing so in the misguided belief that they're bringing  back control to the UK parliament...but here they are wanting to bypass it...utterly bizarre!!!

Corbyn's plans are hardly democratic, and now he's encouraging civil disobedience. I don't like what Johnson is doing, but how can anyone think that Corbyn's childish "cabinet" gathering in Church house has any credibility or democratic backing either? It's basically a putsch just to get his way through.

He keeps saying that he will do anything to stop a no deal referendum. Already a blatant lie, he voted against May's deal three times, so again he exposes himself to be just another dishonest MP.

It's not Corbyn, for all I think he's pathetic, who's proroguing Parliament to avoid anyone potentially interfering in his plans.

[JAS]

Yet that's exactly what you're doing, as usual you're bashing one side because of the party they represent but ignoring exactly the same anti-democratic behaviour of the politicians that you actually do like. British politics is a mess, and you can't really have a go at one side when the other is equally as guilty and inept. Both Corbyn (and McDonnel) and Johnson are truly vile people.

On the Amazon fires, they're nothing new, and not even especially bad. They happen all the time. Furthermore, the claims they are the "lungs of the earth" is also complete nonsense. They aren't responsible for 20% of the worlds oxygen at all.

Yes I’m bashing the whole side because I believe their whole ethos is damaging to the very fabric of our society, fair enough I’ve criticised Johnson in particular both on the basis of his beliefs and his buffoon like personality.

You do however have to get away from the myth that I like Corbyn, I don’t. I think his leadership qualities (certainly what many believe as leadership qualities) are at best questionable. I’m not a Corbyn fan but there a recognition that his beliefs and his principles are more closely aligned to mine than certainly Johnson’s or indeed Swinson’s for that matter. Lucas is decent principled and it would be good to see the greens make significant progress under her but I don’t see her as a potential PM. Not sure why, I just don’t.

Btw the Amazon reference was an analogy :-p
I’m not in broad disagreement with you on what you say, I think the whole issue has been blown up as part of a narrative to put pressure on the Brazilian Prez to be more in line with western neoliberal agendas.

His beliefs and principles? Given how dodgy some of his beliefs are, you should probably let us know which of his beliefs and principles align with yours because there are plenty that you wouldn't want to be associated with.

Just to be clear I did say his beliefs and principles, not what the vested interests of the right wing media alleges what he may have done or spoken to 30 odd years ago. So with that in mind and in no particular order
1. The eradication of poverty in the 5th richest country in the world
2. The preservation of the fundamental principle that we should have an NHS free at the point of use (or as Bevan phrased it...no citizen should be denied essential healthcare due to a lack of means.
3. The eradication of homelessness through the provision of adequate affordable housing
4. The general unwillingness to throw our nations troops into unnecessary unwinnable wars. Especially ones driven by the needs and wants of arms manufacturers, banks and global company’s who stand to profit from the extraction of natural resources in the vicinity of said war zones.

Any of those you fundamentally disagree with?

[super_realist]

1. Is there a politician/party in the UK who doesn't want to eradicate poverty?
2. There has never been any question that the NHS should be free at the point of delivery and no one wants to see an NHS where anyone is denied essential healthcare due to a lack of means.
3. See point 1, but substitute homelessness for poverty
4. Can't see any right thinking person disagree with that either.

I wouldn't say that those are beliefs unique to Corbyn at all. I think the majority of people would think the same. Doesn't seem to me that you align to Corbyn at all, rather that you have universal beliefs, so not sure why you reference them as his principles or his beliefs, when those are the principles and beliefs of your average UK citizen.

I do wonder though why you're happy to attack one side, but ignore a similar sort of thing from the side you are more partial too.

[JAS]

1. Is there a politician/party in the UK who doesn't want to eradicate poverty?
2. There has never been any question that the NHS should be free at the point of delivery and no one wants to see an NHS where anyone is denied essential healthcare due to a lack of means.
3. See point 1, but substitute homelessness for poverty
4. Can't see any right thinking person disagree with that either.

I wouldn't say that those are beliefs unique to Corbyn at all. I think the majority of people would think the same. Doesn't seem to me that you align to Corbyn at all, rather that you have universal beliefs,  so not sure why you reference them as his principles or his beliefs, when those are the principles and beliefs of your average UK citizen.

I do wonder though why you're happy to attack one side, but ignore a similar sort of thing from the side you are more partial too.

Maybe because I take the view that yes, those are pretty universally held beliefs which does align the majority up with Corbyns. Hence the right wing character assassination of the man himself.

The Tories are fundamentally opposed to such beliefs, they are the elite, governing for the elite, for 4 and a half years of an election cycle they’ll lie through their teeth about believing in those principles whilst trying to find ways for their own kind to exploit the masses to line their mates pockets. Then shortly before an election they’ll throw some crumbs and hope the gullible swallow without question and to be fair they usually do!!

Ultimately it’s not about Johnson or Corbyn, it’s about how much we want a decent society, what set of principles we prioritise and what movement (not personality) we believe can best work toward that.
To me the Tories have always believed in dividing the masses, Anti immigration sentiment fuelled by Brexit is an absolute gift for them, unfortunately Brexit itself is also at the same time a kind of poison chalice for them too.

[JAS]

Meanwhile...you’ll love this, especially the last bit :-p

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49518133

[super_realist]

You do realise that the majority of Labour voting constituencies actually voted for Brexit too right?

[super_realist]

Meanwhile...you’ll love this, especially the last bit :-p

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49518133

I've seen that, and the Huns are going to face teams far better than they are. Can't see too many coefficient points being collected by them.
Also, there's an awful lot of if's and but's in that. Nothing will change the fact that the SPL and Celtic and Rangers simply aren't good enough for Europe. Rangers especially scraping through by a last minute goal by one of the scummiest players in the UK is the perfect example.

[JAS]

Meanwhile...you’ll love this, especially the last bit :-p

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49518133

I've seen that, and the Huns are going to face teams far better than they are. Can't see too many coefficient points being collected by them.
Also, there's an awful lot of if's and but's in that. Nothing will change the fact that the SPL and Celtic and Rangers simply aren't good enough for Europe.  Rangers especially scraping through by a last minute goal by one of the scummiest players in the UK is the perfect example.

Always good to see a different perspective but Smeg me Super that’s going some.

They were in an even more precarious position last year, first year of group stage football in over 8 years, an inherited squad and a manager barely in the job with no previous (managerial) European experience.
Fast forward a year, you surely can’t deny the Gerrard has made progress?? All depends on the draw of course but given the progress it wouldn’t be unreasonable to expect at least the same points total as last season.
A win is a win, a win with 2 clean sheets is even better, that was Gerrards 22nd game in charge in Europe in 14 months, the emerging record is actually surprisingly good.

Ouch, Feyenoord, Porto & Young Boys, draw could have been kinder but it also could have been a lot worse. I’d take a rough punt at 4-6 points maybe 8 if we catch one of the top teams on an off day.

[super_realist]

Of course he's made progress, but it's turd polishing. There's only so much you can improve a second rate club in a tinpot league.

What do you mean "ouch" in regards to the draw potentially being kinder? Any draw would be bad for Rangers because they're one of the lowest ranked teams in the competition.

8 points? You really have got your blue tinted specs on haven't you? If get half of that you can be happy.

[JAS]

Of course he's made progress, but it's turd polishing. There's only so much you can improve a second rate club in a tinpot league.

What do you mean "ouch" in regards to the draw potentially being kinder? Any draw would be bad for Rangers because they're one of the lowest ranked teams in the competition.

8 points? You really have got your blue tinted specs on haven't you?  If get half of that you can be happy.

I would have preferred group a, b, or c. H, I or k would also have been better options.

If you had read and digested my post before diving in with your usual incredulity you would have noticed that the likely outcome I thought would be 4-6 points,  4 being half of 8. It’s not inconceivable that Rangers could nick something on the road, remember they got an away draw in Villarreal last season. You on the other hand have consistently said they wouldn’t do this they couldn’t do that, well here we are group stages again!!
Based on current form I’d expect Porto to easily top the group, Feyenoord whilst a great name and great pedigree are similarly to Rangers coming out of a low period in their history and  in the early days of a manager of great playing pedigree, what have they ACTUALLY done in the past 2-3 seasons? How fearful should Rangers be of Young Boys. These are games which will seriously measure how far Gerrard has progressed. The more fearful side of it is actually if they somehow did amass 8 points or more and/or progress it would flag up Gerrard as a target for other wealthier suitors

[beninho]

Call it 5 points. Under 5 jas makes a small donation to the tories,over 5 realist makes a small donation to the snp.

Deal?

[navyblueshorts]

Call it 5 points. Under 5 jas makes a small donation to the tories,over 5 realist makes a small donation to the snp.

Deal?

Seconded.

[JAS]

Call it 5 points. Under 5 jas makes a small donation to the tories,over 5 realist makes a small donation to the snp.

Deal?

Ouch....or rather OUCH!! That would hurt, potentially deal but not the SNP, why should they benefit? I’d say if it’s more than 5 Super donates to the Labour Party, more than 8 and he sends Abbot a big bunch of flowers with kisses on the card!!

[beninho]

I was unsure who he hated more, the snp or labour!

[JAS]

To be honest I’m not that sure how much further Gerrard could take Rangers from a European perspective. He’s done well to assemble a squad from the skeleton he inherited that’s made the group stages 2 years in a row 2 defeats in 22 games is impressive given his starting point but to step up to the next level they need a level of quality that probably costs more than they can afford and that would struggle to see the benefits of coming to Scotland to advance their careers. Not quite sure how that’s gonna change. To that end Super kind of has a point although he does Labour it in the extreme. That being said they are on an upward trajectory and it will be interesting to see just how they get on in this group which is a bit tougher than last years for sure.

[super_realist]

Of course he's made progress, but it's turd polishing. There's only so much you can improve a second rate club in a tinpot league.

What do you mean "ouch" in regards to the draw potentially being kinder? Any draw would be bad for Rangers because they're one of the lowest ranked teams in the competition.

8 points? You really have got your blue tinted specs on haven't you?  If get half of that you can be happy.

I would have preferred group a, b, or c. H, I or k would also have been better options.

If you had read and digested my post before diving in with your usual incredulity you would have noticed that the likely outcome I thought would be 4-6 points,  4 being half of 8. It’s not inconceivable that Rangers could nick something on the road, remember they got an away draw in Villarreal last season. You on the other hand have consistently said they wouldn’t do this they couldn’t do that, well here we are group stages again!!
Based on current form I’d expect Porto to easily top the group, Feyenoord whilst a great name and great pedigree are similarly to Rangers coming out of a low period in their history and  in the early days of a manager of great playing pedigree, what have they ACTUALLY done in the past 2-3 seasons? How fearful should Rangers be of Young Boys. These are games which will seriously measure how far Gerrard has progressed. The more fearful side of it is actually if they somehow did amass 8 points or more and/or progress it would flag up Gerrard as a target for other wealthier suitors

I didn't jump in, I'm aware that you said 4-6 was likely (even that might be a stretch) but that 8 was a possibility, just under half of the points available. Be interesting to see how many 4th ranked teams have ever accrued that many points.  Rangers are stinking JAS, and Scottish teams in Europe are an embarrassment in the last 10 years. 8 points would be miraculous.

As for Gerrard, you'd have to think he'll ditch Rangers as soon as he gets a decent offer from a large Championship club, although he's shown before how much he lacks ambition by staying at Liverpool for so long, so it's hard to tell. Another season with no milk bottle top trophies and he'll probably have had enough of the small town mentality, bigotry and the dump that is Glasgow (although again, he's a scouser, so maybe to him it's nice)

[super_realist]

I was unsure who he hated more, the snp or labour!

I don't necessarily hate Labour, I do however hate the way that the Marxist Corbyn and moronic McDonnel would like go down the route of socialism and with their crazy idea of renationalising industries that were never run well under public ownership.
I actually wouldn't mind Labour if they were the sort of centre left party they might be under someone sensible like Starmer or Stephen Kinnock instead of a swivel eyed lunatic like Jeremy Corbyn.

[super_realist]

I'd rather donate a fiver to a charity chaps, I don't think any political party is worthy of any donation. I wouldn't put them out if they were on fire.

[beninho]

I'd rather donate a fiver to a charity chaps, I don't think any political party is worthy of any donation. I wouldn't put them out if they were on fire.

That was the point...

[dynamark]

Super there is another term for your final comment.
is it just me or is Jeremy C looking a bit old ,ill,weary and tired just lately.
I'm no conservative supporter but wouldn't want any of the others with a passion

[super_realist]

Super there is another term for your final comment.
is it just me or is Jeremy C looking a bit old ,ill,weary and tired just lately.
I'm no conservative supporter but wouldn't want any of the others with a passion

Yeah, begins with c and end in t.

You could hardly say that Corbyn has ever looked well, particularly youthful or spritely. He's always looked like Alfred Steptoe. One thing for sure though, politics doesn't half age people quickly.

[dynamark]

I was thinking of p--s on.
Anyway if JC turns up in London this weekend and winds up thousands of Momentum type nutters into what is loosely termed civil disobedience hes a gonna.
Id like to see them try it in Leicester or Stoke they would get a right good lesson.
Manchester today had the pleasure of the climate mob.
Jamie Vardy is the Steptoe double act though.

[super_realist]

I was thinking of p--s on.
Anyway if JC turns up in London this weekend and winds up thousands of Momentum type nutters into what is loosely termed civil disobedience hes  a gonna.
Id like to see them try it in Leicester or Stoke they would get a right good lesson.
Manchester today had the pleasure of the climate mob.
Jamie Vardy is the Steptoe double act though.  

I cannot stand those hypocritical morons. They are so selective on what sources of CO2 they protest against whilst completely ignoring and contributing to the ones that aren't convenient to them and which would affect their life if they had to stop.
We should never have got rid of those water jet lorries. Wash those soap dodging hypocrites off the streets.

[beninho]

Realist, can you explain why it bothers you? Being unable to stand people because you don't like their views, is pretty strong. What upsets you so much?

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