Political round up.............

by **JuliusHMarx** Wed 26 Jun 2019, 3:34 pm

First topic message reminder :

Soft thread split, hard thread split, no-deal thread split. Who gives a sh!t as long as we get a thread split by the 15:35 deadline.

by Soul Requiem Thu 12 Sep 2019, 10:17 am

Not a lot Labour can do about Watson, it's an elected position just like party leader which seems a bit absurd. I do like Watson when he's interviewed but whether I like him or not (Corbyn) his constant undermining of the party leadership is a bit childish.

by lostinwales Thu 12 Sep 2019, 12:32 pm

Much rather have Watson as leader than Corbyn.

by SecretFly Thu 12 Sep 2019, 1:06 pm

Watson, The Jungle Book's Kaa ......

Trust in Me,
Just in me,
Shut your eyes
Trust in me....

by lostinwales Thu 12 Sep 2019, 1:28 pm

SecretFly wrote:Watson, The Jungle Book's Kaa ......

Trust in Me,
Just in me,
Shut your eyes
Trust in me....

No that's the messiah not Watson.

by SecretFly Thu 12 Sep 2019, 1:35 pm

lostinwales wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Watson, The Jungle Book's Kaa ......

Trust in Me,
Just in me,
Shut your eyes
Trust in me....

No that's the messiah not Watson.

Watson - for me a three way split personality - Wormtongue, Kaa, O'Brien (1984). All nice people even if one of them is a snake.

Dangerous man. A man you could never trust, even if you gave birth to him.

by lostinwales Thu 12 Sep 2019, 4:49 pm

SecretFly wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Watson, The Jungle Book's Kaa ......

Trust in Me,
Just in me,
Shut your eyes
Trust in me....

No that's the messiah not Watson.

Watson - for me a three way split personality - Wormtongue, Kaa, O'Brien (1984). All nice people even if one of them is a snake.

Dangerous man. A man you could never trust, even if you gave birth to him.

To me he just comes over as competent and pragmatic - not common qualities in front line politicians these days and I can appreciate how these would lead to you not trusting him.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 12 Sep 2019, 6:57 pm

Not sure Watson believes in anything....

Amazingly had a video ready for when those Mps left Labour months ago so he obviously was given knowledge in advance by them....Had another one for when the Panorama aired and every time Labour has a policy he comes out against it.

Seems to me he is a front for a powerful lobby determined to stop Labour winning in the hope this lobby can regain control of it once the GE is over..

Not even subtle I'm afraid....Labour need to change the Deputy rules so the leader appoints him/her.

Can't have this guy opposing the Party 24/7.

by lostinwales Thu 12 Sep 2019, 8:46 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Not sure Watson believes in anything....

Amazingly had a video ready for when those Mps left Labour months ago so he obviously was given knowledge in advance by them....Had another one for when the Panorama aired and every time Labour has a policy he comes out against it.

Seems to me he is a front for a powerful lobby determined to stop Labour winning in the hope this lobby can regain control of it once the GE is over..

Not even subtle I'm afraid....Labour need to change the Deputy rules so the leader appoints him/her.

Can't have this guy opposing the Party 24/7.

You are completely flamingoing joking. The main reason why Labour won't win an election out right is the messiah - because outside of the believers nobody likes or trusts him. He has a cabinet that seems to be carefully designed to make him look good. How else can you explain the presence of such intellectual colossi as Abbott or Gardiner.

Give me a politician who listens instead of preaches any day.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 12 Sep 2019, 9:25 pm

I'm not a Corbyn fan so your attempt to pigeon hole me is wasted.. Starmer or Thornberry would be better..

Labour members elected Watson to be Corbyn's deputy...Conference makes Labour policy...

He wasn't elected to try to hamper Labour's chances by chucking Anti Semitism at his own Party or to contradict on everything else.

Now is Corbyn crap...Yes...But he is the elected leader..Watson isn't....

If Watson doesn't like it...Challenge him or resign as his number 2..

Watson's job is to promote agreed Labour policy not make up his own..

by No name Bertie Thu 12 Sep 2019, 9:45 pm

I live in one of those safe seat constituencies so my vote is worthless in the general election. It's all in the marginals where things will be decided. Apparently there is a suggestion going round that Boris Johnson wanted an October 15th election to avoid students registering in university towns - I assume that means most constituencies with universities are in marginal seats - where the student vote could be crucial - and overwhelmingly labour. It seems to be suggested that students go to university to be indoctrinated by the left wing intelligentsia that have free reign there.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 12 Sep 2019, 9:49 pm

Most students are thick because Bertie is a Conservative

Great argument....

by No name Bertie Thu 12 Sep 2019, 9:57 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Most students are thick because Bertie is a Conservative

Great argument....

You are a complete idiot because you can only think in terms of binaries. Feckwit.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 12 Sep 2019, 10:00 pm

Goodnight Bertie.

by lostinwales Thu 12 Sep 2019, 10:44 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I'm not a Corbyn fan so your attempt to pigeon hole me is wasted.. Starmer or Thornberry would be better..

Labour members elected Watson to be Corbyn's deputy...Conference makes Labour policy...

He wasn't elected to try to hamper Labour's chances by chucking Anti Semitism at his own Party or to contradict on everything else.

Now is Corbyn crap...Yes...But he is the elected leader..Watson isn't....

If Watson doesn't like it...Challenge him or resign as his number 2..

Watson's job is to promote agreed Labour policy not make up his own..

I didn't imply you were, but I do get suspicious when anybody blames anything other than Corbyn's own ineptitude (and the actions of those close to him) in defining Labour's current malaise.

Basic Corbyn behaviour seems to be that its easier to play the martyr than to fight back, especially as it helps to deflect from how useless he is. Honestly although I appreciate that it is not him who has driven this country into its current state, I truly believe Corbyn has done more than his fair share to facilitate the process. As far as opposition leaders rank the only thing he has over IDS is that he doesn't eat his own bogies, at least in public.

by No name Bertie Fri 13 Sep 2019, 2:05 am

No name Bertie wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Most students are thick because Bertie is a Conservative

Great argument....
You are a complete idiot because you can only think in terms of binaries. Feckwit.

a) I didn't say students are thick - that is your erroneous interpretation of what I wrote which indicates an inability to read what was written. It comes under misrepresentation.
b) Your assertion that I am a Conservative is symptomatic of your binary thinking. It is another example of people sticking labels on fellow posters.
c) You failed to engage in any meaningful way with what I wrote.
d) My robust response was "inspired" by the latest commentary on the other thread.
e) Am I wasting my time trying to engage? Probably.
f) Despite all of this - I have seen far worse elsewhere. This is fairly urbane in comparison.

by **Pr4wn** Fri 13 Sep 2019, 2:51 am

There will be no personal insults on this thread, or any other thread. We're all for impassioned debate but I won't have name-calling.

by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 13 Sep 2019, 9:00 am

My argument that the membership didn't elect Watson as Deputy Leader to contradict Labour policy is valid...

Happy for anyone to be 'suspicious' though if they want to be...It's a free Country..

I will be voting Labour...Despite Corbyn...

If I was in a Lib Dem/SNP/Plaid v Tory marginal I would vote for the one most likely to beat the Tory.

In other news The Telegraph front page is about Labour attacking the charitable status of Private schools as if it is a bad thing...

Great idea..

by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 13 Sep 2019, 9:02 am

No name Bertie wrote:
No name Bertie wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Most students are thick because Bertie is a Conservative

Great argument....
You are a complete idiot because you can only think in terms of binaries. Feckwit.
a) I didn't say students are thick - that is your erroneous interpretation of what I wrote which indicates an inability to read what was written. It comes under misrepresentation.
b) Your assertion that I am a Conservative is symptomatic of your binary thinking. It is another example of people sticking labels on fellow posters.
c) You failed to engage in any meaningful way with what I wrote.
d) My robust response was "inspired" by the latest commentary on the other thread.
e) Am I wasting my time trying to engage? Probably.
f) Despite all of this - I have seen far worse elsewhere. This is fairly urbane in comparison.

All this for a throwaway remark ???

Bless you..

by Soul Requiem Fri 13 Sep 2019, 9:04 am

Bertie has done you like a kipper there.

Bless you.

by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 13 Sep 2019, 9:09 am

Fancy a fellow right winger thinking that..

Good luck to him..

Moving on...

See 41% of Welsh People want Wales to be independent according to a new Yougov poll..

What they going to export Welsh rarebit ????

Brexit has certainly broken up the four corners of the UK..

Can see a United Ireland and independent Scotland in the next ten years..

by **navyblueshorts** Fri 13 Sep 2019, 9:53 am

No name Bertie wrote:I live in one of those safe seat constituencies so my vote is worthless in the general election. It's all in the marginals where things will be decided. Apparently there is a suggestion going round that Boris Johnson wanted an October 15th election to avoid students registering in university towns - I assume that means most constituencies with universities are in marginal seats - where the student vote could be crucial - and overwhelmingly labour. It seems to be suggested that students go to university to be indoctrinated by the left wing intelligentsia that have free reign there.

You were doing fine until this utter nonsense. Grow up.

by **navyblueshorts** Fri 13 Sep 2019, 9:55 am

lostinwales wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I'm not a Corbyn fan so your attempt to pigeon hole me is wasted.. Starmer or Thornberry would be better..

Labour members elected Watson to be Corbyn's deputy...Conference makes Labour policy...

He wasn't elected to try to hamper Labour's chances by chucking Anti Semitism at his own Party or to contradict on everything else.

Now is Corbyn crap...Yes...But he is the elected leader..Watson isn't....

If Watson doesn't like it...Challenge him or resign as his number 2..

Watson's job is to promote agreed Labour policy not make up his own..

I didn't imply you were, but I do get suspicious when anybody blames anything other than Corbyn's own ineptitude (and the actions of those close to him) in defining Labour's current malaise.

Basic Corbyn behaviour seems to be that its easier to play the martyr than to fight back, especially as it helps to deflect from how useless he is. Honestly although I appreciate that it is not him who has driven this country into its current state, I truly believe Corbyn has done more than his fair share to facilitate the process. As far as opposition leaders rank the only thing he has over IDS is that he doesn't eat his own bogies, at least in public.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 16 Sep 2019, 9:36 am

Tories extend lead with Opinium..

Con 37
Lab 25

See it cut with BMG..

Con 31
Lab 27

See it stay the same with Comres..

Con 28
Lab 27

Interesting the Lib Dems have moved from a 2nd ref position to a cancel Brexit one...

Obviously it's to offset Labour's move to 2nd ref....But while it may work in the remain South...Not sure how it plays in target Shire seats in the North and Midlands.

by **Pr4wn** Mon 16 Sep 2019, 10:00 am

Haven't they always been anti-Brexit? Their MEPs wore "B*llocks to Brexit" shirts in parliament didn't they?

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 16 Sep 2019, 10:44 am

Bit of a shift from respecting the result of the referendum but wanting a 2nd referendum....to Bollox to a 2nd referendum we are stopping Brexit....

Slap in the face for democracy one might opine...

by **Pr4wn** Mon 16 Sep 2019, 11:24 am

Depends which way you look at it, I suppose. If they get elected with that mandate, then it's democracy in action.

The public's view has almost certainly changed (though in which direction it remains to be seen) since the original - non-binding - referendum in 2016.

What's wrong with having a referendum on any final deal or no deal vs remain?

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 16 Sep 2019, 11:48 am

I'm questioning their new positioning...Some people who voted remain respect the result..

Not ruling out it won't work...Just not sure there is enough Lab/Lib switchers in Tory/Lib marginals to compensate for undecided Tory leavers who are either result respecting or moderate Brexeers... Who may have fancied voting for a Centrist option.

Lib Dems obviously think there are.

by lostinwales Mon 16 Sep 2019, 12:05 pm

And as a result Labour activists have redefined their main targets as Tom Watson and the Lib Dems as 'Tory lite'. Nice to see them focusing on the most important issues.

by **navyblueshorts** Mon 16 Sep 2019, 12:10 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Bit of a shift from respecting the result of the referendum but wanting a 2nd referendum....to Bollox to a 2nd referendum we are stopping Brexit....

Slap in the face for democracy one might opine...

Maybe. To split hairs though, does cancelling A50 actually overturn the 2016 vote? Or does it postpone Brexit pending a grown up discussion of options re. deals and trading agreements post-leaving, with A50 re-activated once we're properly set?

by **navyblueshorts** Mon 16 Sep 2019, 12:11 pm

Pr4wn wrote:Depends which way you look at it, I suppose. If they get elected with that mandate, then it's democracy in action.

The public's view has almost certainly changed (though in which direction it remains to be seen) since the original - non-binding - referendum in 2016.

What's wrong with having a referendum on any final deal or no deal vs remain?

Has it? How do the polls TRUSS quotes, above, dovetail with that assumption?

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 16 Sep 2019, 12:54 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I'm questioning their new positioning...Some people who voted remain respect the result..

Not ruling out it won't work...Just not sure there is enough Lab/Lib switchers in Tory/Lib marginals to compensate for undecided Tory leavers who are either result respecting or moderate Brexeers... Who may have fancied voting for a Centrist option.

Lib Dems obviously think there are.

I don't know how it'll work out for them at the next election, but I really don't like the idea of Article 50 being revoked without a second referendum confirming that's what the UK wants. Yes, an election win would be as clear an indication as any, but it's the symbolism of it. God know the divisions are going to take years to heal anyway, if they can ever be healed at all, but surely we'd have a better chance of that happening if it's the people effectively overruling themselves in a second referendum.

On the other hand, why should it only be the Tories that can ignore one half* of the electorate?

* - for want of a better word

by lostinwales Mon 16 Sep 2019, 1:09 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I'm questioning their new positioning...Some people who voted remain respect the result..

Not ruling out it won't work...Just not sure there is enough Lab/Lib switchers in Tory/Lib marginals to compensate for undecided Tory leavers who are either result respecting or moderate Brexeers... Who may have fancied voting for a Centrist option.

Lib Dems obviously think there are.

I don't know how it'll work out for them at the next election, but I really don't like the idea of Article 50 being revoked without a second referendum confirming that's what the UK wants. Yes, an election win would be as clear an indication as any, but it's the symbolism of it. God know the divisions are going to take years to heal anyway, if they can ever be healed at all, but surely we'd have a better chance of that happening if it's the people effectively overruling themselves in a second referendum.

On the other hand, why should it only be the Tories that can ignore one half* of the electorate?

* - for want of a better word

Super comment I saw on twitter - from a comic and unfortunately I can't remember. Something along the lines of
'People ask how you can ignore the votes of 17.4 million people. Well you do it the same way you'd ignore 16.2 and then try just a little bit harder'

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 16 Sep 2019, 2:06 pm

I saw that one!

by MrInvisible Mon 16 Sep 2019, 2:44 pm

Agree with Luckless Pedestrian, that revoking Article 50 on its own, whilst attractive in its simplicity as a policy, shouldn't be used in isolation. I believe it should be used now as a mechanism to stop us with these constant Brexit cliff-edges with Article 50 deadline, but conditional on it being tied to confirmatory referendum and the time to properly develop a viable Brexit option which commands more cross-party support.

So far, Brexit has been handled appallingly by politicians representing the 'winning side', with complete disregard for the regional difference in how the vote played out. Remain has the moral high ground now, but a policy to simply revoke Article 50 and carry on as if nothing happened (genuine question, is this the Lib Dem policy or is it more nuanced than that) is anti-democratic in the same way that the No Deal Brexit threat and Theresa's dogmatic red-lines were.

Regarding Labour potentially losing votes to Lib Dems, I think they need to make more use of Keir Starmer, who is one of the few politicians whose stature has risen over last few years and appeals to Remain minded voters. In my opinion Corbyn/McDonnell have an excellent domestic agenda - polling shows many of the policies are popular with voters across the political spectrum - Labour need to make best use out of the whole shadow cabinet not just rely on Corbyn, who is v popular personally in some quarters but not universally, despite having some v attractive policies.

by lostinwales Mon 16 Sep 2019, 3:18 pm

MrInvisible wrote:Agree with Luckless Pedestrian, that revoking Article 50 on its own, whilst attractive in its simplicity as a policy, shouldn't be used in isolation. I believe it should be used now as a mechanism to stop us with these constant Brexit cliff-edges with Article 50 deadline, but conditional on it being tied to confirmatory referendum and the time to properly develop a viable Brexit option which commands more cross-party support.

So far, Brexit has been handled appallingly by politicians representing the 'winning side', with complete disregard for the regional difference in how the vote played out. Remain has the moral high ground now, but a policy to simply revoke Article 50 and carry on as if nothing happened (genuine question, is this the Lib Dem policy or is it more nuanced than that) is anti-democratic in the same way that the No Deal Brexit threat and Theresa's dogmatic red-lines were.

Regarding Labour potentially losing votes to Lib Dems, I think they need to make more use of Keir Starmer, who is one of the few politicians whose stature has risen over last few years and appeals to Remain minded voters. In my opinion Corbyn/McDonnell have an excellent domestic agenda - polling shows many of the policies are popular with voters across the political spectrum - Labour need to make best use out of the whole shadow cabinet not just rely on Corbyn, who is v popular personally in some quarters but not universally, despite having some v attractive policies.

Labour have been relying on the shadow cabinet. Stamer Thornberry and especially McDonnell have been much more visible. (Gardiner too so they don't get it all right - Labour's Grayling). Corbyn has been doing the one thing he can do well which is standing up in front of a tame crowd. There are definitely quarters where Corbyn is popular but plenty more where he isn't. He has little chance outside of Labour heartlands and what chance there is is purely because he's not a Tory. Labour have forgotten the concept of appealing to the center ground to actually win an election. How popular he is within the Labour party just does not matter when you look at the country as a whole. Add in the fact that his performance under interview is poor, and all that dodgy personal history (IRA, Palestine etc) that makes him an easy target. There are good reasons why he was polling 3rd in a two horse race with May over best PM, and probably still is even up against the abominable Johnson.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 16 Sep 2019, 4:00 pm

You are just recycling the same bollox.....IRA sympathiser and Hamas were used last time....Didn't wash.....

Labour got tactical votes last time despite Corbyn's unpopularity and there is no reason to expect it to be any different this time...

I'd vote Lib Dem in a Tory/Lib marginal....I'm voting Labour where I live now...

Next GE is whether you want Johnson or Corbyn in marginals..

As for the Centre ground.....Not sure what that is..

Because if illegal wars....PFI.....90 day detention.....Tax cuts for the rich.....Cutting red tape in the City and cutting workers rights is the centre ground as Blair did between 2001-2007..

I will stay on the left of it..

by lostinwales Mon 16 Sep 2019, 4:08 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You are just recycling the same bollox.....IRA sympathiser and Hamas were used last time....Didn't wash.....

Labour got tactical votes last time despite Corbyn's unpopularity and there is no reason to expect it to be any different this time...

I'd vote Lib Dem in a Tory/Lib marginal....I'm voting Labour where I live now...

Next GE is whether you want Johnson or Corbyn....

As for the Centre ground.....Not sure what that is..

Because if illegal wars....PFI.....90 day detention.....Tax cuts for the rich.....Cutting red tape in the City and cutting workers rights is the centre ground as Blair did between 2001-2007..

I will stay on the left of it..

Same line because nothing has changed.

The IRA/Hamas is always there and isn't as easily explainable as some of the other stuff. I think they genuinely like having other stuff to complain about that is easier to defend.

Tactical voting was on the ABT scheme, and a lot of people feel betrayed that Corbyn seemed to treat the resultant votes as a personal vindication.

The lib dems are on a bit of a surge. There is a danger that this will split the anti tory vote but Labour only have themselves to blame.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 16 Sep 2019, 4:17 pm

Centrists are so popular they keep getting landslided in Labour Elections....No one wants to pay a small amount a month to join and vote for Yvette Cooper apparently..

Lib Dems are only popular because of Brexit....Nothing to do with centrism...After all they haven't got any policies.

Elections are funny things.......Labour are on average 6 points down.......Last time they were on average 20 points down....

Labour lead with Women voters.....They are weighted down in polls as are youngsters as they don't usually turnout in as high a numbers as Men...Will they turnout ??

Will they tactically vote ??

Corbyn is no more crap than he was last time.....Difference is Johnson is much less popular than May..

by MrInvisible Mon 16 Sep 2019, 4:18 pm

@LostinWales - making better use of the shadow cabinet is a positive for Labour - gives broader appeal and feels less like personality cult. Starmer has been excellent on Brexit, and Labour need to play up his credentials on sorting out this mess on the doorstep (compare and contrast with Dominic Raab).

With regards to Corbyn's history, all that's been plastered over the media relentlessly so far, so may have less impact than it may have previously.

Looking at the polls I think Labour have had some support peel away to Lib Dems over Brexit. Ironically, I think Corbyn has had a good couple of weeks - the cross-party work in parliament has made him come across as less partisan and more mature politician.

by lostinwales Mon 16 Sep 2019, 4:26 pm

MrInvisible wrote:@LostinWales - making better use of the shadow cabinet is a positive for Labour - gives broader appeal and feels less like personality cult. Starmer has been excellent on Brexit, and Labour need to play up his credentials on sorting out this mess on the doorstep (compare and contrast with Dominic Raab).

With regards to Corbyn's history, all that's been plastered over the media relentlessly so far, so may have less impact than it may have previously.

Looking at the polls I think Labour have had some support peel away to Lib Dems over Brexit. Ironically, I think Corbyn has had a good couple of weeks - the cross-party work in parliament has made him come across as less partisan and more mature politician.

Agree with all of that. I'd add that Corbyn is much more of a known quantity this time around, and that does not help him at all.

To give him credit Corbyn has produced some good performances in Parliament recently.

I do think that the self destruction/ morphing into the BNP that the Tories are going through has helped to take attention away from the similar problems that Labour are facing.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 16 Sep 2019, 4:34 pm

Johnson was the self proclaimed Incredible Hulk yesterday..Today he flees a press conference because a few people are booing...

Bill Bixby is turning in his grave......

Certainly isn't comfortable taking heat is Claudius...Very sensitive for a politician.

by lostinwales Mon 16 Sep 2019, 4:49 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Johnson was the self proclaimed Incredible Hulk yesterday..Today he flees a press conference because a few people are booing...

Bill Bixby is turning in his grave......

Certainly isn't comfortable taking heat is Claudius...Very sensitive for a politician.

If I had any sympathy I would admit that he was going to be damned either way, but I don't.

by **JuliusHMarx** Mon 16 Sep 2019, 5:35 pm

Mr Juncker, don't make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

by lostinwales Tue 17 Sep 2019, 9:33 am

JuliusHMarx wrote:Mr Juncker, don't make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

I don't think Juncker likes him anyway

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 17 Sep 2019, 11:56 am

Lib Dem members singing for Tony Blair to go and die at their big bash last night..

Must of forgotten....Umunna..Berger and Smith have just joined as well as a bunch of Blair admiring lefty Tories..

Bless them the Lib Dems are evolving into New Labour and some of their faithful can't see it..

by **Pr4wn** Tue 17 Sep 2019, 12:06 pm

Just look at Swinson's voting record when she was a part of the coalition.

Then tell me she's a liberal.

by It Must Be Love Tue 17 Sep 2019, 12:48 pm

Pr4wn wrote:Just look at Swinson's voting record when she was a part of the coalition.

Then tell me she's a liberal.

She was part of a coalition government.

I believe the Tories had 300 seats and LDs around 40, so based on that democratic result, the ratio of government policy is 300:40 in favour of Tories. So yes that means LDs would have to compromise more... because they don't have the mandate the Tories had.
If they vote down anything they disagree with, that defies the point of a coalition. Lab-LDs didn't have enough seats to form a majority, so not like there was much of a choice.

Sometimes in a mature democracy, compromises have to be made. By definition every time any politician makes a compromise we could harangue them for 'selling out'. In fact that's what the public have done, and it's meant no one is willing to steer away from their hard line principles, creating a total mess.

by **Pr4wn** Tue 17 Sep 2019, 1:02 pm

Tell that to the thousands of disabled people who have had their benefits withdrawn under this idiotic system.

by **navyblueshorts** Tue 17 Sep 2019, 1:12 pm

Pr4wn wrote:Tell that to the thousands of disabled people who have had their benefits withdrawn under this idiotic system.

People have been told. The LDs were Tory stooges in that coalition and it beggars belief that they took almost all of the flak, and apparently still are...

by **Pr4wn** Tue 17 Sep 2019, 1:17 pm

Not all the Lib Dems are enablers. Jo Swinson was, though.

They chose to form that coalition. They chose to support those policies, they chose to cast those votes.

Passing it off as "compromises have to be made" makes it sound like they didn't have a choice in the matter.

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