Ireland WC

First topic message reminder :

Bit early i know.
Will update squads etc once they are announced.
And add the fixtures when I get a spare 10 mins.

Will Addison has been called up to the training squad

In either case it is now looking like very tough draw.

I've been surprised at the level of handling in the RC so far. All teams have been quite irresponsible with the ball, and I think that the handling on display during the 6N was better.

I think NZ are still finding their mojo and South Africa are starting to look quite tasty. Oz are underwhelming and I hope that the Pumas manage to translate the Jaguares' successful season onto the international stage, but i'm yet to see anything suggesting they have.

rodders wrote:In either case it is now looking like very tough draw.

It is but in some ways it might suit us better than other teams. We have gone out in quarters v Wales Argentina and France in our most recent quarters and Oz before that. Lets take a pop at SA or NZ this time. Nothing to lose.

Personally Im no less happy with it than most of the other probable options. I definitely dont think this Ireland squad will fear either of them.

If everyone was fit, what would Ireland's starting backrow be? And given the injuries, what do you expect Ireland's WC backrow to be?

bluestonevedder wrote:If everyone was fit, what would Ireland's starting backrow be? And given the injuries, what do you expect Ireland's WC backrow to be?

Id say it would be OMahony at 6, JVdF at 7 and Stander at 8.

If we were playing SA, Wales or England I would be tempted to start Henderson at 6, Stander at 8 and JVdF at 7.

If Leavy was fit I think he would start at 7. I think he is a big loss.

Collapse2005 wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:If everyone was fit, what would Ireland's starting backrow be? And given the injuries, what do you expect Ireland's WC backrow to be?

Id say it would be OMahony at 6, JVdF at 7 and Stander at 8.

If we were playing SA, Wales or England I would be tempted to start Henderson at 6, Stander at 8 and JVdF at 7.

If Leavy was fit I think he would start at 7. I think he is a big loss.

I agree and think the loss of Leavy was a big factor in our performances in the 6N, and Leinster missed him against Sarries.

As much as I like VDF as a player the balance wasn't right with him and O'Mahoney. The backrow was exposed physically against the bigger teams and Stander was far less effective being the only decent ball carrier.

I think we need Conan and Stander both starting with one of O'Mahoney and VDF. Ruddock would be another option at 6 or 7.

I don't think Joe will change it though.

Yes completely agree. Our six nations form completely revolved around our back row uncharacteristically losing the physical battles. How Wales dealt with Billy V was a joy to behold. Ireland and Leinster by contrast couldnt deal with him.

Why not Henderson at 6 with Stander at 8 and VdF at 7?

You are right though POM and VdF together doesnt work well.

rodders wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:If everyone was fit, what would Ireland's starting backrow be? And given the injuries, what do you expect Ireland's WC backrow to be?

Id say it would be OMahony at 6, JVdF at 7 and Stander at 8.

If we were playing SA, Wales or England I would be tempted to start Henderson at 6, Stander at 8 and JVdF at 7.

If Leavy was fit I think he would start at 7. I think he is a big loss.

I agree and think the loss of Leavy was a big factor in our performances in the 6N, and Leinster missed him against Sarries.

As much as I like VDF as a player the balance wasn't right with him and O'Mahoney. The backrow was exposed physically against the bigger teams and Stander was far less effective being the only decent ball carrier.

I think we need Conan and Stander both starting with one of O'Mahoney and VDF. Ruddock would be another option at 6 or 7.

I don't think Joe will change it though.  

Interesting. I never quite knew what the pecking order was with VDF and Leavy. I really rate VDF.

Where does Ruddock fit in the blindside pecking order? I'm always impressed with him but he doesn't seem to get a run of games in an Ireland jersey. Is that injuries or other players being picked ahead of him?

Personally I think Ruddock is a great squad guy, a good all rounder but not going to top the charts in any one area and give you x-factor.

O'Brien gave us that in physicality, VdF in tackling, Leavy in breakdown steals and carrying etc.

Collapse2005 wrote:Yes completely agree. Our six nations form completely revolved around our back row uncharacteristically losing the physical battles. How Wales dealt with Billy V was a joy to behold. Ireland and Leinster by contrast couldnt deal with him.

Why not Henderson at 6 with Stander at 8 and VdF at 7?

You are right though POM and VdF together doesnt work well.

I just think Henderson is an out and out lock now rather than a back row.

He doesn't have that explosive pace he had in his youth and is better at carrying in the tighter channels.

rodders wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Yes completely agree. Our six nations form completely revolved around our back row uncharacteristically losing the physical battles. How Wales dealt with Billy V was a joy to behold. Ireland and Leinster by contrast couldnt deal with him.

Why not Henderson at 6 with Stander at 8 and VdF at 7?

You are right though POM and VdF together doesnt work well.

I just think Henderson is an out and out lock now rather than a back row.

He doesn't have that explosive pace he had in his youth and is better at carrying in the tighter channels.

Id rather Henderson tackling guys like Billy V than POM. I also dont think Henderson will ever be a regular lock for Ireland as his lineout jumping is not in the same league as Ryan, Toner and POM.

Kleyn remains in the squad while Dillane is dropped. This is the moment it rings true, the 'local lad' loses his place in the squad. It's a 3 year lead in so this is really just following through on the probable words uttered to Kleyn to bring him to Munster and Ireland.

It's strange, myself I don't mind Kleyn playing for Ireland. I don't mind Aki playing for Ireland either, or Stander for that matter. But Roux, Bent and Strauss felt a bit uncomfortable. What is 'local' anyways. Do I only not care if the player is good enough, but Strauss was class for a stretch and I was uneasy with him, Stander and Aki are a step above. But I haven't seen Kleyn play international.

Henderson and Beirne fight for the lock/flanker flex position. So Ryan, Toner, Roux and Kleyn with probably 2 to be picked from those and 1 of Hendo & Beirne. Have Beirne and Kleyn been promised their places 2-3 years out in order to get them into Ireland, a forgone conclusion despite any of the 'how they do in training' BS.

I think Ryan, Toner and Hendo are nailed on to travel unless there is an injury.

The 4th lock position will probably go to Kleyn and Beirne to miss out altogether unless Schmidt takes 5 locks.

Joe Schmidt has flown back to NZ due to family bereavement.
Farrell left in charge.

They say he should return by the weekend.

Kleyn over Beirne, yeah that’s a kick in the teeth.

The Project System is alive and well in Ireland.

At least we have a name for it. Given the cricket wc win had about 2.5 Englishmen in the team ( slightly better than the rugby team )

Heh. Cap ‘em off the plane ‘ Oirish’. World Cups in Football, Rugby and Cricket now. Only nation to do it. 38 all out. Bet Morgan is feeling Irish now.

For the record, I think O’Moaney is past it, much like the SOBber.

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Scannell and Dillane gone. Instead of a saffer and kiwi.

Guns. You can try and fantasise all you want about a back row combination that doesn’t include POM but you will never get it right. Being the mucksavage from mullingar has really left a chip on the shoulder.

I just dont think Pom is physical enough Dod. I think the ever increasing physical nature of backrow rugby has passed him by now.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Scannell and Dillane gone. Instead of a saffer and kiwi.

Guns. You can try and fantasise all you want about a back row combination that doesn’t include POM but you will never get it right. Being the mucksavage from mullingar has really left a chip on the shoulder.

I just dont think Pom is physical enough Dod. I think the ever increasing physical nature of backrow rugby has passed him by now.

He won a few motm awards recently and got on most peoples WORLD team of 2018.

He wouldnt get on mine. Thought he was pretty uninspiring in the 6 nations as was all the backrow for its lack of physicality. If you want POM to start you need much more physical 7 and 8. Thing is it is usually the 6's job to be physical.

Feek seams to be hinting at Keyn getting the nod. Effectively he has leapfrogged Quinn Roux as back up tight head lock.

I don't think Beirne was ever really in the frame, unless Henderson gets injured.

Personally I have concerns about the quality of our preparation, we've gone for a similar approach to the 2015 RWC, where at the senior players behest we stayed at home for most of the preseason.

The 3 final games will show us if we have learned anything from that but I fear we could be in for a shock against England and Wales who are pulling out all the stops.

rodders wrote:Feek seams to be hinting at Keyn getting the nod. Effectively he has leapfrogged Quinn Roux as back up tight head lock.

I don't think Beirne was ever really in the frame, unless Henderson gets injured.

Personally I have concerns about the quality of our preparation, we've gone for a similar approach to the 2015 RWC, where at the senior players behest we stayed at home for most of the preseason.

The 3 final games will show us if we have learned anything from that but I fear we could be in for a shock against England and Wales who are pulling out all the stops.

Out of interest, why was Beirne never really in the frame? From what I've seen, he's an outstanding player who I thought would be a shoe-in for a squad place.

bluestonevedder wrote:

rodders wrote:Feek seams to be hinting at Keyn getting the nod. Effectively he has leapfrogged Quinn Roux as back up tight head lock.

I don't think Beirne was ever really in the frame, unless Henderson gets injured.

Personally I have concerns about the quality of our preparation, we've gone for a similar approach to the 2015 RWC, where at the senior players behest we stayed at home for most of the preseason.

The 3 final games will show us if we have learned anything from that but I fear we could be in for a shock against England and Wales who are pulling out all the stops.

Out of interest, why was Beirne never really in the frame? From what I've seen, he's an outstanding player who I thought would be a shoe-in for a squad place.

Well Toner, Ryan and Henderson are shoe ins. Assuming 4 locks the 4th lock will be a tight head lock to back up Toner. Beirne has had an excellent season for Munster but hasn't really had much opportunity with Ireland to squeeze his way into Schmidts plans, he might make it but he's an outside bet at this stage.

Feeks comments yesterday seemed to hint that Kleyn's extra physicality was something they were looking for but that he needed to understand all the systems and calls. I'd presume it is in his hands to get on the plane and Beirne needs an injury to get in.

rodders wrote:Feek seams to be hinting at Keyn getting the nod. Effectively he has leapfrogged Quinn Roux as back up tight head lock.

I don't think Beirne was ever really in the frame, unless Henderson gets injured.

Personally I have concerns about the quality of our preparation, we've gone for a similar approach to the 2015 RWC, where at the senior players behest we stayed at home for most of the preseason.

The 3 final games will show us if we have learned anything from that but I fear we could be in for a shock against England and Wales who are pulling out all the stops.

Beirne hasnt really taken his chances as much as we all would have like him to. That said I doubt tge squad v Italy is the final RWC squad.

Beirne has only had one real chance of note against Wales in which he was far from our worst performer that day. Would be surprised and disappointed if he was snubbed for Kleyn.

It's all being worked out in training.  Schmidt is probably the happiest he's been in coaching terms.  Pressure is in many ways off him now.  He doesn't have to worry about the next 6N, he doesn't have to worry about the players after October.  He doesn't have to plot and plan strategies to be used verses strategies to be held back to work on more until refined.
I think...I hope!... he's going to give this a real go in a mood that we've probably not seen in him before at International level anyway.

So I'll trust the comings and going from camp that will be obviously at this point focused on performances in camp.  Perhaps he's just seen enough of Beirne for now.  Knows the level, is comfortable with consistency... look at Kleyn next. Injuries change sides. Best to be asready for them as possible... system learning.

POM, awful player. Take Beirne as a 6, it’s a no brainer for me. He certainly doesn’t lack physicality. Kleyn is a good player from what I’ve seen but I was never actually sure if he was going to go through with the whole capped for Ireland thing. Poor SA lose another lock, but will probably bring on a bigger 20yo lock next week.

Team for Italy

15. Jordan Larmour (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 13 caps
14. Andrew Conway (Garryowen/Munster) 12 caps caps
13. Garry Ringrose (UCD/Leinster) 20 caps
12. Chris Farrell (Young Munster/Munster) 5 caps
11. Dave Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster) 17
10. Joey Carbery (Clontarf/Munster) 18 caps
9. Luke McGrath (UCD/Leinster) 10 caps

1. Jack McGrath (St Marys College/Leinster) 54 caps
2. Rob Herring (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 7 caps
3. Andrew Porter (UCD/Leinster) 14 caps
4. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 64 caps
5. Jean Kleyn (Munster) 0 caps
6. Rhys Ruddock (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 21 caps Captain
7. Tommy O’Donnell (UL Bohemians/Munster) 12 caps
8. Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Ulster) 27 caps

Replacements
16. Niall Scannell (Dolphin/Munster) 14 caps
17. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 88 caps
18. John Ryan (Cork Constitution/Munster) 18 caps
19. Iain Henderson (Queens University/Ulster) 44 caps
20. Tadhg Beirne (Lansdowne/Munster) 5 caps
21. Kieran Marmion (Galwegians/Connacht) 25 caps
22. Jack Carty (Buccaneers/Connacht) 3 caps
23. Mike Haley (Munster) 0 caps

Would have liked to see Addison and cooney in
But not a bad team

Just noticed Beirne is the back row replacement

Ha it will be funny if Dave Kearney makes the squad

Collapse2005 wrote:Ha it will be funny if Dave Kearney makes the squad

it would be hilarious. Mike Haley is bad enough.

mikey_dragon wrote:POM, awful player. Take Beirne as a 6, it’s a no brainer for me. He certainly doesn’t lack physicality. Kleyn is a good player from what I’ve seen but I was never actually sure if he was going to go through with the whole capped for Ireland thing. Poor SA lose another lock, but will probably bring on a bigger 20yo lock next week.

.

Collapse2005 wrote:Ha it will be funny if Dave Kearney makes the squad

I wonder if Joe is using the warm ups to identify injury cover aswell. If Dave Kearney is in the squad we might not be as good as we thought.

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:POM, awful player. Take Beirne as a 6, it’s a no brainer for me. He certainly doesn’t lack physicality. Kleyn is a good player from what I’ve seen but I was never actually sure if he was going to go through with the whole capped for Ireland thing. Poor SA lose another lock, but will probably bring on a bigger 20yo lock next week.

.

I read it whilst you were probably in bed but no, I’m not that touchy. Ask the mods if you don’t believe me

carpet baboon wrote:Just noticed Beirne is the back row replacement

Schmidt is reading my posts again. Beirne is a very good athlete and has a similar skill set to Shingler, which is why I think he would be good there. He played at 8 for Scarlets a couple times.

Collapse2005 wrote:Ha it will be funny if Dave Kearney makes the squad

I would say he's not without a chance you know. Joe likes him and covers the back 3.

Beirne at 6 is an interesting one alright, if he comes on and does a job it will help his chances.

Farrell also lining out at 12 will be a test of his versatility.

I agree, it would just be funny to watch the reaction.

Collapse2005 wrote:I agree, it would just be funny to watch the reaction.

I don't have issue with it, I think when he's fit and on form he is decent enough but it does highlight a lack of depth we have in the back 3.

Similarly in the back row with O'Donnell at 7 and Beirne as cover we don't have great options now with Leavy and O'Brien out, Henry retired. It's certainly not as competitive an area as it once was.

7 is a real shame to be fair

Personally I'd take Stander, O'Mahoney, VDF, Ruddock and Conan. Stander and Ruddock can cover 7.

4 locks would be Toner, Ryan, Henderson and Kleyn.

I guess they are still considering taking Murphy/Beirne or Conan/Ruddock.

I'm more concerned about firm and gsmeplan than squad selections. Will it be the Ireland of 2018 or the 2019 6N? Roughly the same players were picked but big difference in performances.

profitius wrote:Will it be the Ireland of 2018 or the 2019 6N? Roughly the same players were picked but big difference in performances.

Well I think we need to see something new because I'm not convinced there was a big difference between the 2.

We lost a few key men like Leavy and Toner and the form of a few others dropped off like Sexton and Furlong but generally I think England and Wales just worked us out a bit and we couldn't find the answers.

Thankfully we don't need to play either until the latter stages but SA could definitely pose us similar problems with their line speed and physicality.

profitius wrote:I'm more concerned about firm and gsmeplan than squad selections. Will it be the Ireland of 2018 or the 2019 6N? Roughly the same players were picked but big difference in performances.

No Leavy made a big difference IMO

That looked bad for carberry

It did.

Oh well, we'll see.  

On the game, ..... well we won.  Missed three conversions I think.  So the score might have been 35-10 if the goal kicking boots were being worn.  And Lord, I don't know how.
Ireland continuing their decidedly unimpressive pace, intensity, accuracy and invention into the first warm up game against an Italy side that should really have been easily bullied off the field.  Not WC International alertness or purpose.  And yet, still a decent score line for such a fumbled, uneasy performance.  If they played some genuine hard uncompromising rugby, this Ireland team might look half decent..............., IF............

Ps... I can't believe this Ireland side has Farrell coaching them. We always knew Joe Schmidt was more bookish perfectionist. But I did feel Farrell would have dragged more emotional defiance and bravado into the side by now. Very timid stuff.

When Schmidt was asked about the 'warm-up' matches, he said the warm-up is what happens before the game and the game is full Test Rugby.

As a pre-world cup outing it served it's purpose with neither side instructed to leave everything on the pitch and risk missing the plane.
Kleyn made a passable debut without any highlights, and the pack was efficient in the set piece in general.
It looks like Porter is being trialled as a two-sided prop with hardly any time to prove viability - it would be a massive mistake not to take six props this close to the big show.
It looks like Carbery will miss out with his ankle injury, a major blow but Carty and Byrne are top tens. The problem for Schmidt is that Carbery won't be there as a 10,12 or 15 cover on the bench, so Will Addison's chances have just improved.

On the day itself, Schmidt made it clear that the game was a real game and that both sides would want to go full on at it.  So, words for occasions I suppose.

Anyway, I don't share Joe's approach to these friendlies...never have.  If you want to put in a performance like that weeks from a WC then so be it, maybe it did learn all that he needed to learn from that game for him...but the players as a unit didn't learn much about getting into a strong and potent enough rhythm to take on the best sides in the world.  If you want to hit the ground running then it's best to get into that mood and use those systems now.
We've been here before.  Let's hope, yet again, yet again, yet again, that Ireland are holding something back .... because that stuff from yesterday won't get us out of our pool.  Period.