Ireland WC

First topic message reminder :

Bit early i know.
Will update squads etc once they are announced.
And add the fixtures when I get a spare 10 mins.

Will Addison has been called up to the training squad

SecretFly wrote:By the way, I don't think Joe or any of the officials in IRFU are dumb people, so I don't know what the initial game was of saying he was going to withold the squad from the public for a week.  Ireland rugby is full of leakers and lurkers.  It was never a realistic prospect.

Maybe Joe was out to finally unmask the central leaker who has hounded him through his time before he goes.

Gallows for big Dev at dawn!  The culprit played his hand once too often.

I think they wanted to see if there were any injuries after the Wales game on Sat before they publically announced it.

World Rugby deadline is 8th September I believe, sow we are likely to see changes from some countries due to injuries in the last round of games.

LondonTiger wrote:World Rugby deadline is 8th September I believe, sow we are likely to see changes from some countries due to injuries in the last round of games.

One interesting thing about replacements is the Eli Walker case from 2015. Obviously players named can be replaced for injuries, but players replaced can't return. However Walker was replaced in the Wales squad but later returned.

He was named in the Wales squad on 31 August - the deadline for naming the squad. However on 14 September Eli Walker was replaced by Moriarty.

On 18 September the tournament kicked off with England vs Fiji. On 20 September, Wales played their opening game against Uruguay in Cardiff.

On 11 October (after the Australia game), Liam Williams was replaced by Eli Walker - who was allowed to rejoin the squad as he was released from the team before Wales officially arrived at the tournament.

So a player who gets injured this weekend and replaced could definitely be replaced now (before the deadline) and re-added later as an injury replacement. But the decision wouldn't necessarily have to be made by Sunday as long as the player was replaced before the team "officially arrived" at the tournament.

You'd assume "officially arrived" would be when a team physically arrives in Japan, but the precedent isn't 100% clear from 2015 because Wales didn't have to physically arrive at the tournament in 2015. Maybe there's some event a few days before the tournament that is the official arrival, but considering Walker was replaced 4 days before the tournament, you may be able to get quite close to the tournament date before a player counts as "in".

Collapse2005 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:By the way, I don't think Joe or any of the officials in IRFU are dumb people, so I don't know what the initial game was of saying he was going to withold the squad from the public for a week.  Ireland rugby is full of leakers and lurkers.  It was never a realistic prospect.

Maybe Joe was out to finally unmask the central leaker who has hounded him through his time before he goes.

Gallows for big Dev at dawn!  The culprit played his hand once too often.

I think they wanted to see if there were any injuries after the Wales game on Sat before they publically announced it.

But sure people have always appreciated that reality, that the list might change.... players most of all.

It's harmless stuff of course, the leaking.  But still I've never liked how smart the leakers felt they were when expected to have some degree of loyalty to the outfit that employed them.  And of course that extended to the select few journalists who often got the leaks in advance and then pretended it was nothing more than their own wonderful insight and esoteric expertise.....

robbo277 wrote:...before Wales officially arrived at the tournament...

I wonder what counts as "officially arriving". For instance, South Africa are in Japan now, having schedule a match with the tournament hosts this weekend. Arguably, that could be considered an arrival.

Rugby Fan wrote:

robbo277 wrote:...before Wales officially arrived at the tournament...

I wonder what counts as "officially arriving". For instance, South Africa are in Japan now, having schedule a match with the tournament hosts this weekend. Arguably, that could be considered an arrival.

Nice bit of business from them.

It seems then that organisers would be quite flexible in reality with player changes in advance of the beginning of the competition.... as long as there wasn't 3 extra big guys found in the kit guy's suitcase.

I assume early lists are for pre publicity photos and stuff more than solid by-the-book frowning officialdom?

Rugby Fan wrote:

robbo277 wrote:...before Wales officially arrived at the tournament...

I wonder what counts as "officially arriving". For instance, South Africa are in Japan now, having schedule a match with the tournament hosts this weekend. Arguably, that could be considered an arrival.

So I've done some digging. I think it's when you arrive at your training base. Wales officially arrived on 16th September - the latest date allowed before the tournament and 2 days after they replaced Walker.

Ireland will officially arrive at the tournament on Friday 13th September, so assuming the rules are the same they can make changes up to that date without penalty. Scotland officially arrive on Sunday 15th and England and Wales both officially arrive on Monday 16th.

2015: https://www.rugbyworldcup.com/news/88156

2019: https://www.rugbyworldcup.com/news/444508

What's the penalty? Financial I assume. It's always financial.

No Toner, and only one open-side? Hmmm.

I would have selected him

Yeah probably over Kleyn. Marmion is unlucky.

Collapse2005 wrote:I would have selected him

I must admit I thought he looks better than Kleyn

So not many surprises in the final list anyway.  Kleyn probably being the only surprise on it and Marmion + Toner being the only surprises off it.  Everyone else - well even an ill informed Granny would be familiar the faces.
I really didn't think McGrath was a favourite of Joes and Marmion even won a bloody turn over ball at the weekend in a pretty good performance overall.

I have a feeling Farrell opinions/choices are coming more into the mix now as Joe winds down his dictatorship bit by bit.  It also might be a little sign that a familiar partnership of Sexton and McGrath might appear in games that fans might not necessarily expect them in - i.e., bigger games.

The team needs more cutting edge to release players like Earls, Conway and Stockdale.  Murray's style seems to favour a closer working relationship with the forwards than the backs.  I do sense more evasion than collision booked into Ireland's WC plans.  We shall see.  

A little more confident that there is actually a pattern and plan behind this oh do slow build up.  If the majority of these players click and find a nice rhythm, they're a pretty potent outfit..... in theory!

I heard Addison picked up an ankle injury which probably made Schmidts mind up

I would have selected Toner. He is not only good in the line out but he is a great maul spoiler. I think Ireland will miss his experience in both these areas.

Ireland gonna get one helluva kicking this weekend

Just having a laugh

SecretFly wrote:What's the penalty?  Financial I assume.  It's always financial.

I remember an Austin Healey interview when he was flown out as a possible injury replacement in 2003. He wasn't allowed to stay in the same hotel as the rest of the squad nor train with them until he was confirmed as an injury replacement.

I presume any player in breach would be banned from taking part so effectively reducing the squad size for a given period.

Does any one think that Toner was not selected because he may be getting cited for that tackle? As he been cited? as there been any complaint about him?

majesticimperialman wrote:Does any one think that Toner was not selected because he may be getting cited for that tackle? As he been cited? as there been any complaint about him?

No, he didnt get cited. Window has closed and Irish management said they were pretty sure he wouldnt get cited.

From Matt Williams in the Irish Times....do you agree?

On the Thursday afternoon before the opening game of this year’s Six Nations against England, my phone started to light up. Joe Schmidt had selected Robbie Henshaw at fullback against Eddie Jones’s English team. I was astonished.Sections of the rugby media were trying to contact me to get a reaction, as they had the incorrect perception that I was opposed to Joe Schmidt’s coaching. Nothing could be further from the truth. On so many occasions I have publicly stated that Joe is one of the most knowledgeable and capable coaches I have ever come across.
Up until that day, to my mind, Joe Schmidt had always been shrewd, calculated and exceptionally well planned. That all changed when he selected Henshaw – one of the world’s best inside centres – at fullback. I was gobsmacked.I said at the time that it was “the most un-Joe Schmidt decision I had ever seen.” Robbie’s credentials as a Test match standard fullback were, to say the least, exceptionally poor. And sadly for him he had a poor day at fullback. He should never have been played there and it was unfair on him.To cut to the chase, it was a poor selection by Joe. The ramifications of that day led to the current malaise that Ireland find themselves in on the eve of a World Cup. Against England at the Aviva the Irish players lost confidence in themselves and their coaches.And now, history repeats itself. I’m totally dumbfounded at the exclusion of Dev Toner from the World Cup squad.

Last January a member of the Irish team told me that Dev was on the outside. I couldn’t believe it. When I asked why, I was answered with a shrug of the shoulders. “They want him out.”

When Dev Toner started his career with Leinster I doubted the giant could be anything more than friendly. I was so very wrong. Toner has developed into an excellent international secondrow.I regard him as the most improved player in Irish rugby. The physicality in his performance against New Zealand in November 2018 was simply astonishing. While the New Zealand game can be regarded as ancient history, Dev’s ability as the best communicator and caller of lineouts in Ireland is much undervalued. This aspect of modern of rugby is totally misunderstood by those outside the game.The great Irish lock Malcolm O’Kelly was the best lineout exponent I have ever had the privilege of coaching. Mal was a highly educated and intellectual student of the lineout. He was coached by the genius of Willie Anderson at both London Irish and Leinster. Mal had a huge influence on Leo Cullen when Leo was a developing player. Leo, in turn, passed all this intergenerational knowledge on to Dev.Throw into that amazing mix of experience the knowledge and wisdom that Dev has gained from working with the great Brad Thorn and Jonno Gibbs and you have a phenomenally well educated lineout brain. One that is now, unbelievably, outside Ireland’s World Cup squad.

All of which totally appals me.

If we acknowledge that Ireland want to base a significant percentage of their attacking game on their lineout, then Dev’s ability to call and manage the set piece should have been an integral part of the game plan.Two weeks ago against England I watched Ireland’s lineout crumble. White jerseys bullied Ireland. Like a bad school playground, good players in green didn’t seem to have the moral courage to stand up to the bullies in white. I begged for Dev to return and not only call the correct lineouts for Ireland, but also to show the steel and grit required to drive the Irish set play that is so vital to the Irish attack.
In other words, run our lineout as he has done for years. This also means dealing with opposition teams in a forceful manner and using the aggression and wisdom he has picked up over the years.Now it appears that the internal heave against Dev that I was told about in January has come to fruition.
I feel the decision to remove Dev is more a reflection on Joe Schmidt. Joe appears tired and weary of the battle. His time is coming to end and for me, that time cannot come quickly enough. Joe has been a great coach, but his decisions are indicative of a regime out of touch with the team and the people.
This year has been a poor one for the national team. This selection only adds to the malaise.
To leave Dev out and include a recently qualified South African is to ignore internal team dynamics. No current player is going to publicly criticise this decision, but internally players won’t be pleased. This has nothing to do with Jean Kleyn. He is the innocent in this story. He is eligible and should not be criticised in any way. I wish him well.But the reality of replacing a long standing and much loved veteran with a recently qualified non-indigenous player does not promote internal cohesion within any Irish team.
Who is going to boss Ireland lineouts now? Who is going to have the smarts to out-manoeuvre the well educated lineout defenders of New Zealand or South Africa?
I can’t answer that. But I know Dev Toner could.

People, Matt Williams included, still only see Devon Toner as a line out operator only. OK, he is excellent there but he is also one of the best and most disruptive maul defenders Ireland have ever produced. I actually also feel he has got much better with his ball carrying.

For me he is still the best option, certainly for the big games. He is a proven big match player and I do believe that his experience will be sorely missed.

eirebilly wrote:People, Matt Williams included, still only see Devon Toner as a line out operator only. OK, he is excellent there but he is also one of the best and most disruptive maul defenders Ireland have ever produced. I actually also feel he has got much better with his ball carrying.

For me he is still the best option, certainly for the big games. He is a proven big match player and I do believe that his experience will be sorely missed.

I agree with you more than I agree with Williams who nods to the lineout which that is of course the obvious strength that Toner brings to the party but he misses out in that fact he has so much else to offer. I do think Joe has made a mistake, Kleyn's a good player but I'd have had Toner down as central to the Irish pack, one of the on-field and off-field generals.
We might eat our words if the Irish Lineout's a huge success and Kleyn has a massive tournament etc but at the moment it feels like we've headed off to Japan on a plane that's short of one engine.

I think Toner has always been a decent carrier with really good hands. Rarely knocks it on compared to guys like O'Kelly who would knock on every second ball. Nice soft hands on passes. Toner is a good all rounder, well able to smash back guys like Retallick in the tackle last November too.

I think this is a mistake too. I dont have massive amounts of faith in Henderson calling the lineout.

I also still think that Cooney and Addison can feel hard done by.

I like Matt.  He is a colourful character in his views - grey hair but colourful personality.  He never avoids a sledge hammer if a tooth pick is required.  He likes large black and white canvasses to work on, and he's been a GodSend to the otherwise boring pedantic greyspeak of commentators and other pundits on TV3/Virgin over the years.

Yes, everyone sees the potential shortfalls of not bringing Toner, who I believe is professional enough to be gaining potency by the week as the team bedded down to real rugby games v endless training.
And billy is right too, he has been more than just a good lineout operator.  His height alone kinda always suggested he'd be of benefit there, but I think most of us were most surprised by his development into a hard ass operator in grunt work infield.  When he first arrived we all suspected he'd be too much of a skittle, always falling down with so much as a light breeze.  But he bulked up and packed a punch.

Still though, whilst I understand Matt's reasoning, and whilst I appreciate that he heard the hints that camp Joe wanted Devon out, I think he could have attempted looking at the other side of the coin.  WHY was Devon not wanted?  What might be the strategic reasons for not wanting him?  What purpose might it serve to drop him for a coach that obviously wants to go out on a high and a coach that knows how central Toner has been to our effectiveness as a side?

Ask the question Why Toner has been dropped at this point.  Try to analyse the reasons there might be in terms of gameplans.  There has just got to be a reason for the drop, and no, I don't believe it's just personal spite.

So why would you drop Toner if you were a coach heading to the WC to hopefully make an impression?

I know what my reason might be.  Faster, harder, more mobile and dynamic gameplan to try to break the eternal phase play of doom that has become a milestone around our neck.  We have to mix it up or we go home early again.  We don't bully other sides anymore, they hold their ground.  We have to go over or around, and both takes pace and quickish stepping.  It's the only reason I'd leave Devon at home, the need for a change of physique to play a more loose game.

But why do you guys think he was dropped?

eirebilly wrote:I also still think that Cooney and Addison can feel hard done by.

...as can Marmion. You can only take 31 though. I think now we're understanding why Schmidt is said to have been going on about the number and that it should be 32. He was feeling the pressure about the chat that was coming with Toner, methinks. I do feel the decision to phase out Toner came a good while back.

SecretFly wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I also still think that Cooney and Addison can feel hard done by.

...as can Marmion.  You can only take 31 though.  I think now we're understanding why Schmidt is said to have been going on about the number and that it should be 32.  He was feeling the pressure about the chat that was coming with Toner, methinks.  I do feel the decision to phase out Toner came a good while back.

Cooney, for me, has been the best and most consistent performer in Ireland. I understand that Murray is the number 1 but he has also not been in great form and his distribution is much slower than the other 9's. Cooney can also cover 10 and can assume kick duties if Sexton is having an off day.

Addison is going to be the new Paddy Wallace, a victim of his own versatility.

hugehandoff wrote:From Matt Williams in the Irish Times....do you agree?

No, it seems like more bitter drivel from Williams, he's a failed coach with an overrated sense of himself.

I'm still surprised by the Toner call, he has been an ever present and up until the Autumn it looked very much that he was 1st choice alongside Ryan, with Henderson as the impact player. He also gave a career best performance against NZ.

That said it could be Joe has been planning to pick Kleyn all along and waiting for him to qualify. He's been giving him the big sell so maybe it shouldn't come as a surprise that he is in. It looks like he would have taken Roux, so I'm wondering if the call was between Henderson and Toner?

Either way it is still an out of character call for Joe. I'm thinking that either Toner hasn't fully recovered from injury or they are expecting that come a QF they will need more physicality against the like if NZ or SA?

The Marmion one I think is much a muchness, he has never really convinced and McGrath has been 1st choice at Leinster.

Addison must have been a close one. Farrell deserves his place, I'd have been tempted to leave out Larmour for Addison as Conway gives us cover on the wing.

I still do not get what people see in Bundee Aki myself...

He is a wrecking ball but he has some of the works ball control I have ever seen from an International centre. Addison ahead of Aki any day of the week for me.

Fly I agree with you.
Marmion worked hard to be another version of Murray, and in doing so found himself in a fight to start for his province, with the fleet of foot Blade often getting the big games, now it seems Joe wants a bit more pace from his second 9 so how with McGrath. Harsh ? Yes but the game dosent stand still so we shouldn't either.
(On a personal note still think cooney should have been the second nine. Quick, intelligent, runs great support lines, great place kicker and experience of playing at 10 if needed)
And as good as Dev is if we want a quicker game his size and recent injuries dont fit the plan.
Also didn't we beat England in Twickenham with Ryan and Henderson as the starting row? Lineout worked well that day.

Toner has been a great and vital part of our game, but maybe the game has changed

eirebilly wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I also still think that Cooney and Addison can feel hard done by.

...as can Marmion.  You can only take 31 though.  I think now we're understanding why Schmidt is said to have been going on about the number and that it should be 32.  He was feeling the pressure about the chat that was coming with Toner, methinks.  I do feel the decision to phase out Toner came a good while back.

Cooney, for me, has been the best and most consistent performer in Ireland. I understand that Murray is the number 1 but he has also not been in great form and his distribution is much slower than the other 9's. Cooney can also cover 10 and can assume kick duties if Sexton is having an off day.

Addison is going to be the new Paddy Wallace, a victim of his own versatility.

Well Addison should go holiday in Japan then and wait the call.  

Correct Murray has not been in great form but can you imagine the outrage in press and perhaps on these pages if he were dropped.  Sexton, what the hell do we know of his form either?  

Coach will always pick up the hit for choices made.  I hope he's made the right ones for the collective goal of getting as far in this competition as we can.  Gameplans before personnel with me.  We need to get back to 2018 mood and fast...and even then, let's not forget the importance of a simple last minute kick in that year.  We have to be better than 2018 - by quite a bit.  Hmmmm...have we the time?

On a slight tangent but would anyone else love to see mckloskey and Farrell start a test match. That would be some impact in the centre

rodders wrote:

hugehandoff wrote:From Matt Williams in the Irish Times....do you agree?

No, it seems like more bitter drivel from Williams, he's a failed coach with an overrated sense of himself.

I'm still surprised by the Toner call, he has been an ever present and up until the Autumn it looked very much that he was 1st choice alongside Ryan, with Henderson as the impact player. He also gave a career best performance against NZ.

That said it could be Joe has been planning to pick Kleyn all along and waiting for him to qualify. He's been giving him the big sell so maybe it shouldn't come as a surprise that he is in. It looks like he would have taken Roux, so I'm wondering if the call was between Henderson and Toner?

Either way it is still an out of character call for Joe. I'm thinking that either Toner hasn't fully recovered from injury or they are expecting that come a QF they will need more physicality against the like if NZ or SA?

The Marmion one I think is much a muchness, he has never really convinced and McGrath has been 1st choice at Leinster.  

Addison must have been a close one. Farrell deserves his place, I'd have been tempted to leave out Larmour for Addison as Conway gives us cover on the wing.



 

I would have taken Addison over Larmor too. The only thing I can think of that might have gone against Addison is he does have a bit of the headless chickens about him at times.

carpet baboon wrote:
Toner has been a great and vital part of our game, but maybe the game has changed

I think this is it. Clearly they are expecting or planning for something different, with at the ruck or maybe they see the scrum as being key in Japan rather than the line out. I think they feel Toner may have lost a bit of mobility around the park.

One common theme is physicality - Farrell, Kleyn, Aki, Ruddock - in most of the tight calls they've gone for size and power.

Collapse2005 wrote:
I would have taken Addison over Larmor too. The only thing I can think of that might have gone against Addison is he does have a bit of the headless chickens about him at times.

I don't know, I think we was a bit rusty at the weekend, generally he is very heads up with the ball in hand.

I think his durability has gone against him as seems he has another calf strain. I wonder if that explains the late switch to Farrell?

I think Joe really rates Addison and gave him every chance but he's just came up short. I think he offers something different creativity wise but he's just missed too much rugby.

My only worry now is Larmour will have to start at 15 in the mid week games, we don't really have any easy games so he needs to be solid at the back.

carpet baboon wrote:On a slight tangent but would anyone else love to see mckloskey and Farrell start a test match. That would be some impact in the centre

Always rated McCloskey. Good strong runner with very good hands. I think he works very well at 12 with Henshaw at 13.

Or Conway at 15 for the midweek games rodders and have Larmour as impact sub?

I cant see Conway being picked ahead of Earls and Stockdale for the wings in big games nor being picked ahead of Kearney at 15 in big games.

eirebilly wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:On a slight tangent but would anyone else love to see mckloskey and Farrell start a test match. That would be some impact in the centre

Always rated McCloskey. Good strong runner with very good hands. I think he works very well at 12 with Henshaw at 13.

They started together a few seasons back, against Samoa I think?

McCloskey has been one of Ulsters best players this season and unlucky to be out of the picture. Like Farrell he's not just big but has a good skill set, maybe Andy Farrell will find a way to utilize him.

I agree though he's probably better alongside someone like Ringrose.

eirebilly wrote:Or Conway at 15 for the midweek games rodders and have Larmour as impact sub?

I cant see Conway being picked ahead of Earls and Stockdale for the wings in big games nor being picked ahead of Kearney at 15 in big games.

I guess we'll see Conway cover the wings in the midweek games and possibly bench in the big games.

I just see Larmour as more of an impact player than starter

rodders wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:
I would have taken Addison over Larmor too. The only thing I can think of that might have gone against Addison is he does have a bit of the headless chickens about him at times.

I don't know, I think we was a bit rusty at the weekend, generally he is very heads up with the ball in hand.

I think his durability has gone against him as seems he has another calf strain. I wonder if that explains the late switch to Farrell?

I think Joe really rates Addison and gave him every chance but he's just came up short. I think he offers something different creativity wise but he's just missed too much rugby.

My only worry now is Larmour will have to start at 15 in the mid week games, we don't really have any easy games so he needs to be solid at the back.
 

Yes I heard that the injury was a factor. Addison is one of those players who seems very light on their feet and almost seem to glide around the field. Ringrose, Conrad Smith, Geordan Murphy others I remember who played like that. Really good to watch.

Conway is more clinically incisive with a brain that doesn't rush ahead of itself like Earl's ultra fast brain can.

In my toss up, I'd choose Conway. But let nobody be offended, it's only opinion

SecretFly wrote:Conway is more clinically incisive with a brain that doesn't rush ahead of itself like Earl's ultra fast brain can.

In my toss up, I'd choose Conway.  But let nobody be offended, it's only opinion  

I think Conway is doing everything he can to push for a starting spot but if Earls is anywhere close to his best he's nailed on at 14 no doubt about it.

Stockdale has to start at 11, he just offers so much threat with the ball and finishing ability.

Conway is in great form though.

Tough on Toner but I won't 2nd guess Schmidt's choice. In his tenure he has a better record than both England & Wales in the 6 nations, has beaten NZ twice and very nearly could have been 3 out of 4, has put Ireland in the position to take the number 1 ranking 3 times and from what I have seen in the past there is 0 chance that Ireland could have peaked in 2018 and carried that form through to the 6 Nations 2019 and onto Japan. So what if they got hammered in their warm up game against England. Does it really matter? What matters is if we can get to the 1/4 final with a strong fresh 23.
From what we lose in the line-out we may well gain in the scrum. Kleyn packing in behind Furlong could be a potent weapon. When the Irish scrum decimated the AB's one last year that was pretty good to watch.
I don't think Toner/Kleyn will make a big difference in the group stages but IF we get to the 1/4 final then the choice could be a master stroke. Only time will tell.
No coach will make 100% of the correct calls but I think Schmidt has earned my trust.
A series win away to Australia, a win away to SA, beating NZ without SOB & POM for the 1st time.
All of a sudden I'm reading he has lost the plot & is a bad couch.

Ninjarugby wrote:Tough on Toner but I won't 2nd guess Schmidt's choice. In his tenure he has a better record than both England & Wales in the 6 nations, has beaten NZ twice and very nearly could have been 3 out of 4, has put Ireland in the position to take the number 1 ranking 3 times and from what I have seen in the past there is 0 chance that Ireland could have peaked in 2018 and carried that form through to the 6 Nations 2019 and onto Japan. So what if they got hammered in their warm up game against England. Does it really matter? What matters is if we can get to the 1/4 final with a strong fresh 23.
From what we lose in the line-out we may well gain in the scrum. Kleyn packing in behind Furlong could be a potent weapon. When the Irish scrum decimated the AB's one last year that was pretty good to watch.
I don't think Toner/Kleyn will make a big difference in the group stages but IF we get to the 1/4 final then the choice could be a master stroke. Only time will tell.
No coach will make 100% of the correct calls but I think Schmidt has earned my trust.
A series win away to Australia, a win away to SA, beating NZ without SOB & POM for the 1st time.
All of a sudden I'm reading he has lost the plot & is a bad couch.

Agree with you on all that well said.

He is definitely not a bad couch or coach but I do get the sense that Schmidt's departure is coming at a good time though. Word on the street is that the players don't really like him that much but they do respect him a lot. Maybe thats what it takes to be successful but it probably wouldn't last forever nor would his 24/7/365 focus.

I have heard that players dont really enjoy Ireland camps that much. Carton House is now called Auschmidtz amoungst some of the players.

Not a good sign. I think if a coach rules with an Iron fist there is good chance players will ease up on the standards once they know that coach is leaving....

rodders wrote:

I think Conway is doing everything he can to push for a starting spot but if Earls is anywhere close to his best he's nailed on at 14 no doubt about it.

Conway is in great form though.

Yes, but that's kinda my point rodders.  I think Conway is too consistent a player through his career for much ado to be made about his 'form'. For me in my observance, he's just a consistently clever and resourceful player.  Now Earls, - more instinctive, more erratic, considered more naturally gifted..... but form can swing violently because of the high strung nature of his gifts (Luke Fitz Mark 2)

But again only my humble opinion.  Call me Matt Williams

Collapse2005 wrote:

Ninjarugby wrote:Tough on Toner but I won't 2nd guess Schmidt's choice. In his tenure he has a better record than both England & Wales in the 6 nations, has beaten NZ twice and very nearly could have been 3 out of 4, has put Ireland in the position to take the number 1 ranking 3 times and from what I have seen in the past there is 0 chance that Ireland could have peaked in 2018 and carried that form through to the 6 Nations 2019 and onto Japan. So what if they got hammered in their warm up game against England. Does it really matter? What matters is if we can get to the 1/4 final with a strong fresh 23.
From what we lose in the line-out we may well gain in the scrum. Kleyn packing in behind Furlong could be a potent weapon. When the Irish scrum decimated the AB's one last year that was pretty good to watch.
I don't think Toner/Kleyn will make a big difference in the group stages but IF we get to the 1/4 final then the choice could be a master stroke. Only time will tell.
No coach will make 100% of the correct calls but I think Schmidt has earned my trust.
A series win away to Australia, a win away to SA, beating NZ without SOB & POM for the 1st time.
All of a sudden I'm reading he has lost the plot & is a bad couch.

Agree with you on all that well said.

He is definitely not a bad couch or coach but I do get the sense that Schmidt's departure is coming at a good time though. Word on the street is that the players don't really like him that much but they do respect him a lot. Maybe that's what it takes to be successful but it probably wouldn't last forever nor would his 24/7/365 focus.

I have heard that players don't really enjoy Ireland camps that much. Carton House is now called Auschmidtz amoungst some of the players.

EOS (I believe), had 16 players and wasn't much liked.
DC was a nice coach & did deliver a GS but got totally out thought in 2011 by Gatland
Schmidt has to be ruthless & I don't really care whether the players think he is too tough on them. I'm sure POC, BOD and countless players before them wish they went to the WC this prepared & with this good a squad.
Fitzgerald is bitter in my opinion as is M Williams. Pichot had a crack at World Rugby & the IRFU over Toners omission because only Argentina don't use the rules put in place.
I say get behind the squad & go for it. Chances are these days Toner might just get a chance but I'll back Kleyn to do a job and just maybe he'll shut some of the doubters up. I certainly hope so.

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote:

I think Conway is doing everything he can to push for a starting spot but if Earls is anywhere close to his best he's nailed on at 14 no doubt about it.

Conway is in great form though.

Yes, but that's kinda my point rodders.  I think Conway is too consistent a player through his career for much ado to be made about his 'form'.  For me in my observance, he's just a consistently clever and resourceful player.  Now Earls, - more instinctive, more erratic, considered more naturally gifted..... but form can swing violently because of the high strung nature of his gifts (Luke Fitz Mark 2)

But again only my humble opinion.  Call me Matt Williams

I've been a long time critic of Earls but his form and consistency in the last 2-3 seasons has won me over.

I think he is now a player who plays to his strengths but also has very little weaknesses. Conway as well as he has played isn't as good all round as Earls.