Glasgow and Edinburgh banter thread no. 23 - New season, new thread

by **BigGee** Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:34 pm

First topic message reminder :

Well a new season is probably time to start off a new thread.

2 weeks to the start of the season and both sides with one more pre season game to go. A lot of unknowns this season again, due to the number of players away with Scotland and other countries for the WC.

For Glasgow, can they continue their general excellence that took them on a fantastic end of season run to the Pro 14 Final, where they just fell short. It might be their last campaign under Dave Rennie, so can they go one better?

Edinburgh also have questions to ask, the main one being whether they can ever pass the ball past the FH and how soon before their wingers are likely to go blue from hypothermia? On a more positive note though, they may finally be playing in Mini Murrayfield by autumn 2020. So only one more year to bear playing in the library!

Good luck to both teams for the coming season, though Edinburgh are more likely to need it than Glasgow!

by **RDW** Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:12 pm

That's a huge amount of money for what isn't actually that big an organisation.

Does anyone know how that compares to his home nation counterparts?

by TheMildlyFranticLlama Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:24 pm

BigGee wrote:https://www.theoffsideline.com/huge-hike-in-sru-top-executive-salaries-revealed/

Dodson seems to have doubled his salary this year and is now getting a pretty good wedge by any standards, Not entirely sure what he has done to deserve that!

Utter madness.

For reference, the Welsh Rugby Union (£90.5m turnover, £49.9m surplus, 358 staff) paid their highest earning director £351k in total (including bonus and other benefits) last year.

by EST Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:33 pm

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:
BigGee wrote:https://www.theoffsideline.com/huge-hike-in-sru-top-executive-salaries-revealed/

Dodson seems to have doubled his salary this year and is now getting a pretty good wedge by any standards, Not entirely sure what he has done to deserve that!

Utter madness.

For reference, the Welsh Rugby Union (£90.5m turnover, £49.9m surplus, 358 staff) paid their highest earning director £351k in total (including bonus and other benefits) last year.

That is an almost unbelievable figure. How on earth have the remuneration committee signed off on this?

by **BigGee** Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:33 pm

As ever with the SRU it is the lack of transparency that is the main issue.

There may or may not be something in the accounting that explains this, or msybe is a bonus (though what exactly for?)

It just looks really bad, did they think no-one would notice. A few rugby journalists are really onto Dodson now and are not giving him the easy ride he got at first when he was portrayed as the saviour of the SRU and why should they?

He is just as accountable as all the players and coaches in their employment, he was the one who appointed Toonie, maybe before he was ready!

Most fans might think that money might have been better spent keeping some of our big name players at Glasgow or at least buying in some replacements!

by **NeilyBroon** Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:41 pm

Certainly given performances across the last season I would argue it's not deserved, especially as it's 3 times our profit for last year too. That just doesn't make business sense let alone moral sense, there's no merit to go off of!

by EST Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:36 pm

Executive pay across the board also actually dropped last year as well, its just completely ludicrous and cannot be justified however which way you spin it.

by funnyExiledScot Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:44 pm

Utter madness!!

by **RDW** Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:47 pm

Surely there's a rational explanation for this - surely!

by **BigGee** Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:27 am

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/51117950

Tom English take on the Dodson dough!

It seems it is an accumulation of bonus payments from the past three years, which is what others have been implying as well.

Whether he deserves them or not, from a PR point of view it has been a completely disastrous way for all of this to come out. You wonder what the players think of it as well, Just as the Scotland team is about to be announced. None of them are on a fraction of that amount, even without the bonus!

by EWT Spoons Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:59 am

Before I start, let me be clear, I think this is an insane amount of money (his base salary alone is eye watering) and it's hard to argue that anyone is worth that much....but, if we consider where we were as a union before he came in, it's hard to argue that he hasn't turned the SRU from the debt riddled Poopie show to where it is now.

Comparing him with his peers is also slightly disingenuous as he's probably had the bigger job out of all of them over the last few years. To reignite sponsorship and revenue streams that the others likely already had in place. We likely also had to offer over the odds to entice him into the role, due to how crap things were.

Once again I'm not saying he fully deserves that amount, but it's hard to argue things haven't progressed under his watch.

by tigertattie Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:11 am

Someone go on the Scottish Rugby facebook groups and see how many people are demanding Dodson is sacked and his salary used to fund a third pro tream!

by **BigGee** Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:05 pm

Glasgow Warriors social media strongly hinting that Ritchie Gray is on his way back to Glasgow!

by **BigGee** Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:10 pm

https://www.glasgowwarriors.org/news/richie-gray-to-return-to-glasgow-warriors-next-season

The big fella is coming home!

It does seem to be Danny Wilson that is driving the recruitment now, which is probably a good thing.

by Hazel Sapling Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:10 pm

Who posted that pigs would fly before Naka and Richie Gray came back to Glasgow?

Two year deal for R Gray to replace his brother.

by **BigGee** Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:11 pm

This probably means that Naks will be off at the end of the season, but that was always on the cards in any case.

by **NeilyBroon** Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:13 pm

Good signing, and probably reduced price compared to what it would be as he's been injured so much!

Could really bolster the pack, especially after his 5-6 odd years of experience in France.

by **RDW** Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:15 pm

Excellent signing!

by jimbopip Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:17 pm

I'm not too sure about Naka leaving, Tim Swinson seems to have slipped from favour and is more a squad player than a starter. He may be "considering his future". Also , how many more games has Bob Harley got in him?
Intersting that it's a two year deal: Ritchie looks certain to miss this season's 6 Nations and if he retires after this deal he will miss the World Cup; have we seen the last of him in a Scotland jersey?

by **NeilyBroon** Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:21 pm

jimbopip wrote:I'm not too sure about Naka leaving, Tim Swinson seems to have slipped from favour and is more a squad player than a starter. He may be "considering his future". Also , how many more games has Bob Harley got in him?
Intersting that it's a two year deal: Ritchie looks certain to miss this season's 6 Nations and if he retires after this deal he will miss the World Cup; have we seen the last of him in a Scotland jersey?

He's 30 so it's not impossible. Hines was in the Jersey until he was 34 if I'm not mistaken?

I'd be very surprised if we did see him again though, he seems to have taken a physical hit worse than most. Toonie seemed to think he was keen though.

Depends on how much the newbies step up. If we see Craig storming in and Cummings cementing his place in the squad, not to mention Skinner, there may not be room for Gray Sr.

That being said if he is part of an improving Glasgow pack that turns it around next season he could well feature, fitness accepted.

by **BigGee** Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:38 pm

It would be nice if we could keep Naks as well, but he will require big bucks.

As Jim says, Swinson is likely to retire at the end of this season, he is going to become a lawyer apparently and will probably make more money doing that than he ever did as a rugby player. He is a bright cookie, so no great surprises there.

I don't think Big Bob is done just yet and will play on as a very good squad player for as long as he is motivated to. He is also a very smart lad and will likely have some post rugby plans in the offing as well, but I don't think he will go just yet.

Paddy Kelly has just gone off to play sevens and that is usually a one way ticket as well. Shame about him, as he never really got much of a chance and was a good player.

I suspect a few more may go as well, DTH, Fusaro, Allen, Matt Smith. Thompson, Frisbee and we know a few suiters are sniffing around Nick Grigg. None of those players will be on mega bucks but it will free up some space and some cash. With the WC out of the way now, we can probably get by with a slightly smaller squad as well for a few years. We also have the Super 6 keeping the academy players a bit more up to speed as well.

by bsando Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:31 pm

Big Rich is coming back! Awesome news for Glasgow. If they kept Nakarawa that would be an enviable collection of locks in Gray, Naks and Cummings. Swinson and Harley are getting on a bit. Just need another decent backrow to continue blustering the pack a bit.

by **RDW** Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:34 pm

jimbopip wrote:I'm not too sure about Naka leaving, Tim Swinson seems to have slipped from favour and is more a squad player than a starter. He may be "considering his future". Also , how many more games has Bob Harley got in him?
Intersting that it's a two year deal: Ritchie looks certain to miss this season's 6 Nations and if he retires after this deal he will miss the World Cup; have we seen the last of him in a Scotland jersey?

I hope not - would be a shame if the brothers never got the chance to play together again. I'm wondering if they've ever played against each other? Would be funny if Glasgow and Exeter got each other again in Europe...

If all the locks were fit and on form I'd have R Gray starting any day of the week. Let's hope he gets back to that.

by 123456789. Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:06 pm

I wonder if Glasgow will benefit slightly in an indirect way from the Saracens debacle. There’s no doubt that they could do with a reboot. Keeping Nakarawa along with Gray coming in would be a start. Of all the years to refresh a squad the club it may be beneficial that a large number of international quality players are about to come onto the market. Perhaps skewing the market and bringing more players into Glasgow’s price range. In the longer term it may force English clubs sailing close to the wind to think twice. I’m not saying the Vunipolas, Itoke, Kruis, George, Farrell, Daly etc. are about to come north (although Taylor and Maitland might be tempted to have the end of their careers closely managed). But the ramifications may be wide reaching.
From a Scotland perspective if Townsend can’t change it around we could do worse than bring in McCall if he wants an out. Sanderson would certainly be a brilliant new forwards coach to replace Wilson. That said I reckon my geriatric Jack Russell could make winners out of that bunch of players, once he’s finished loving the ball that is.

by **BigGee** Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:18 pm

It may certainly skew the transfer market for a couple of seasons at least.

I am not sure exactly where Taylor would fit into our centre conundrum, but we are short out wide and at the back. Neither player would be cheap though, even in the new marketplace and I wonder if it is our responsibility to fund their pension plans.

They will both be in demand and will pick up other contracts if they did choose to leave Sarries.

by Eejit Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:53 am

All signs point to this story having legs in which case the January sales just got a lot more interesting. Time to take Dodson’s Christmas bonus and use it to build Glasgow a back row please.

Got to feel for the fans in all this. Met some really nice people there.

by **RDW** Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:47 am

For all that they're painted as the bogie men they also do a hell of a lot for the local community. Wray built a school FFS!

by Tramptastic Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:37 am

Controversial opinion this but I don't think Nigel Wray is necessarily a bad guy in all of this. It should be stated that Saracens have been found guilty of spending over the salary cap, this is a fact and a totally correct decision.

However, the way they've overspent is not necessarily sinister. So rather than shovelling extra funds in to an off shore bank account for the players, Nigel Wray has co-invested in companies/business ideas that will allow the players to have a future outside of rugby. Any pro player (or even amateur) could have their professional future cut short in any game, that's the realism of the sport we play. Wray has ensured that most of his players have help with developing a future outside the game. The insurance policies within the pro sport are apparently crud so having another lifeline is incredibly important.

That said, these investments skewed the markets and led to, potentially, noncompetitive fixtures where no team playing within the cap could afford to compete with Saracens.

Dodson on the other hand can f*ck off.

by 123456789. Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:21 pm

I think there's no doubt that the intent was not malevolent and that it was cheating. That it ultimately had a negative effect further down the line for other people and that it should be punished. This could ultimately be a moment that effectively saves professional rugby. Rugby at the moment is not economically sustainable at a domestic level, part of that is because clubs like Saracens are backed by wealthy individuals. By knocking Saracens down a peg or two, English rugby has shown that no club is too big or too important to follow the rules. I'm not convinced that we will see the mass exodus from Saracens that people are expecting, obviously they will still have to get under the salary cap. If Farrell, Itoje, George etc. can get commitments from Eddie Jones that they will still be in the England squad then they might figure that a year playing less often at a lower standard for a season might be beneficial in the long run.

The Lions might impact on it too but not in the obvious way. The obvious way being that if they are playing in the Championship they won't go. That is probably true of the Lions 'fringe' players. Someone like Maitland who scores regularly for club and country but probably wouldn't be in many people's test sides. However the ones who have come up through the club and are now nailed on starters for their country and, at the moment, are nailed on tourists may determine it's in their interest to be relegated. The Lions means an extended season, it's probably better for them physically to be playing every other week against Doncaster, Nottingham and Bedford Blues. If Eddie Jones still picks Farrell, Itoje, the Vunipolas, Jamie George and Elliot Daly for England they will probably still be selected on the back of their England performances.

That being said, Wray evidently sees his money as a vehicle to help a rugby club, rugby players and the wider community. The culture at Saracens, the stadium, the school, the trophies are all down to him handing his money over. Sport is the truest form of escapism and his money has helped people enjoy that. On the other hand Dodson has taken a phenomenal amount of money. He has done a bloody good job. The deals with BT and Macron have been incredibly lucrative for the sport. However a salary of £455,000 is absurd when compared to the Welsh and Irish equivalents. The Irish CEO takes home £175,000 a year. The head of the Scottish FA takes home £300,000 a year. Let's be generous and put Dodson's appropriate salary at £200,000. Having been in post for eight years that amounts to a £2 million over what he would/should/could have taken home. Add in his half a million pound bonus and it's £2.5 million.

At this point it's worth looking at what Scottish rugby could have done with two and a half million pounds. They could potentially have kept Hogg, Russell or Gray at Glasgow for longer, although whether moving away has or will improve them as players is up for grabs. We could have threatened (based on his £70,000 fine) to sue about 35 earthquake hit nations (my personal favourite option). Or we could have donated some money to help with the clean up in Japan but that would have probably been too normal. We could probably have foregone the sponsorship deal with Purplebricks and used the space to advertise Doddie Weir's charity instead. We could have actually given money to Doddie Weir's charity rather than simply awareness. We could have doubled the SRU funding of each super 6 team for three seasons. We could have had an extra two teams in the Super 6 for nine seasons, meaning that teams in Glasgow and in Aberdeen would be represented also and more players would be on the pathway. In short where Wray gave money to rugby, Dodson took away.

by **BigGee** Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:27 pm

A little look at the Super 6 teams for this weekend sees quite a few Glasgow players getting a run out

One oc the more interesting pucks was George Thornton at Hooker for Bouroughmuir. I wonder if they are thinking sbout a position chsnge for him?

by tigertattie Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:50 pm

Wee Darcy making sure he’s first pick on the wing for Scotland

by TJ Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:50 pm

There is a legal feed for all the challenge cup games with no tv coverage - Edinburgh game
https://www.epcrugby.com/video/live-edinburgh-rugby-v-agen/

by **RDW** Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:21 pm

Edinburgh coasting 22-0 bit looking so laboured in attack. It's almost embarrassing to watch at times.

by tigertattie Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:33 pm

Good game on 4 with Quinns and Clermont. Horribly ruined with the commentary of Heaslip, but the game itself is good

by tigertattie Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:08 pm

Job done for Edinburgh. No point trying too much and risking an injury before The 6ns

by **RDW** Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:22 pm

Well Spoons time to find a new liver as Edinburgh have been drawn away to Bordeaux in the QF!

by TJ Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:18 pm

Can anyone shed some light on this? Watching the Edinburgh game yesterday on the epc feed which has no commentary but really good ambient sound and ref mike at several of the scrums the Edinburgh players were shouting " argentina" as they packed down. Why? Usually codes for plays are just that - codes ie 73 f4 or something. WTF is the shout of Argentina?

by **RDW** Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:44 pm

Codes could literally be anything - I've used chocolate bars to animals to random nicknames in my playing career!

We had a backs move called choirboy because the 13 at the time was called Aled Jones!

by bsando Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:54 pm

tigertattie wrote:Good game on 4 with Quinns and Clermont. Horribly ruined with the commentary of Heaslip, but the game itself is good

I went to that game! First time at the stoop which was great. Made me realise how good mini Murrayfield is going to be. Saw Laidlaw warming up near where we were sitting. Had some good moments but the end was a bit dire. Quins did some good stuff but just made a few silly mistakes at times. Clermont defence was also very good

by EWT Spoons Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:40 am

RDW wrote:Well Spoons time to find a new liver as Edinburgh have been drawn away to Bordeaux in the QF!

Oh dear. That'll likely be the end of me and also Edinburgh's run in the cup

by EWT Spoons Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:47 am

RDW wrote:Codes could literally be anything - I've used chocolate bars to animals to random nicknames in my playing career!

We had a backs move called choirboy because the 13 at the time was called Aled Jones!

Mate of mine called the lineout for his team for a while, it was pretty amateur, so they only had 3 calls, front, middle and back. They used a simple system to flag where it was going, but they added an opposition players name into it, which meant nothing, but confused the team they were playing.

The Argentina call has been used quite a while by Edinburgh. You hear it get shouted a fair bit during games, so clearly it's a naming convention they have stuck with.

by **BigGee** Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:06 am

Mark Palmer interview with Leone post match in the Sunday Times

Having seen their hopes of European knock-out rugby finally extinguished, all Glasgow can do is look forward. While the immediate future does not contain a Heineken Champions Cup quarter-final, it does feature Leone Nakarawa, who has served immediate notice of his intent to be just as big a presence second time round at Scotstoun.
The Fijian’s busy and effective second debut in the thumping win over Sale Sharks will have both soothed and excited Warriors supporters who saw their team make a dreadful start to the season when 16 players were involved in Rugby World Cup service.
Dave Rennie is about to wave the Scotland contingent off again, but a crucial difference this time is that the hugely influential DTH van der Merwe and Niko Matawalu will be staying put, Ryan Wilson and Pete Horne will still be around to lend their vast experience, and both Nakarawa and Aki Seiuli are now in harness. Rennie will need the back-up crew to stand much taller than they managed during the World Cup, but he starts from a stronger position.“This is a good time to get back into my fitness and learn the plays, so that the next game I can enjoy it again just like old times,” said the 31-year-old, for whom Saturday at the AJ Bell stadium was a first outing since Fiji’s World Cup game against Wales on October 9. “It was a very nice experience, playing with some of the boys I had before. It was a bit tough as well, but I know it’s still in there. I felt excited, and things just started to rise from within.

“One factor is fitness and another is learning the game-plan. I’ve got a lot of plays to learn, a lot of different aspects, especially because I know I won’t just be playing second row either.”
Nakarawa was fielded at blindside flanker against the Sharks, and moved to scrummage at No 8 when captain Ryan Wilson went off in the second half. With barely two minutes on the clock, Nakarawa had scored his first points in a Glasgow jersey since May 2016, when he marked his farewell fixture with a try in the Pro12 semi-final defeat to Connacht.

Glasgow do not have another Pro14 game until February 14 when Zebre are the visitors, but if managing downtime has been an issue for Nakarawa in the past, he is clear about what he needs to achieve in the next three weeks.
the Pro12 semi-final defeat to Connacht.
“It was a really exciting moment to touch down, a good reward for coming back and playing with my friends again,” he said. “God works in mysterious ways and who knew I was going to end up back in Glasgow? But here I am and I want to thank the coaches and the club for still believing in me.
“I didn’t expect to play this week, I thought I would maybe be waiting until the Six Nations, but playing with the boys on Saturday reminded me of how it was back in the day. It was a really nice feeling and I’m looking forward to having more of it.”
The only downside for Nakarawa was the yellow card he was shown right at the end of the first half, even if Rennie later joked he had “timed it well” to ensure a 25-minute break. Otherwise, the 2016 Olympic sevens champion was a beacon of activity on a day when Glasgow had many, not least Jonny Gray, Nakarawa’s second row partner in the 2015 Pro12 final where the Warriors thumped Munster.
Gray topped Glasgow’s tackle and carry counts with 21 and 17 respectively and also made the most offloads, his tally of five being one more than that of the man who is synonymous with the skill.

“Jonny has improved a lot since I was first here,” said Nakarawa. “He’s one of the best second rows in the world now. He loves to carry, he loves to tackle and he doesn’t miss any. He’s still young as well [25], and still improving in his game. It’s great to be back playing with him.”
With Gray and the increasingly impactful Scott Cummings sure to have a major role in the Six Nations, Nakarawa may find himself being asked to return to the more familiar stomping ground of the boiler house. Losing three of the first four league matches — and a further two since then — means there is precious little margin for error in the hunt for play-off places. Glasgow are third in Conference A, but will almost certainly find themselves displaced by Cheetahs by the time that Zebre game arrives. In the intervening period, the South Africans play their two games in hand, both against the Southern Kings, who have a single win to their name all season.

Last season, Glasgow won all five matches in the Six Nations window, a sequence which went some way to propelling them to the final. This time round, Rennie can play what must be regarded as the ultimate mid-season joker card.
“It was good to have Leone out there on Saturday; he’s pretty special, isn’t he?” said the Kiwi with typical understatement. “We didn’t think he would play that long. We were thinking maybe 50 minutes and we’d drag him off, but he scored with first touch to make his [signing] announcement complete and he lasted well.”
In one respect, Glasgow’s race is run, but now the priority is ensuring that they stay the course.

by tigertattie Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:08 am

"Eva Peron"

Wonder if that’s another?

Don’t cry for her Argentina!

Calls are the most random thing in the world. The trick is to find the balance between not letting your opposition figure them out and being simple enough that your front row can understand them!

They used to make me cry. Outs were simple enough to understand but not so easy to come up with the code during the game. This meant that if the coaches son/our captain/the next 8 to play for Scotland/who once found alcohol became even crappier at rugby (I'm not bitter) was injured, it meant me and my chunky backside would never be subbed during a game as no other eejit learned who to call line out.

by **BigGee** Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:11 am

We will undoubtedly be in a better position during this 6N period than we have been for some time.

Players like Wilson and Pete Horne, whilst never having really quite cut it at international level are still very decent club players and having them in the mix will make a huge difference. There are also the other two Fijians, the hooker and back row who are both now fit and playing super 6 who will also come into the mix.

I am a lot more hopeful now that we can make a decent run into the third playoff spot in our conference. A lot might depend if the Cheetahs can re-start themselves or if they have truly run out of steam after a very long season for them already. Our home game with them might become a bit of a playoff decider.

by tigertattie Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:10 pm

Nice bit on the Beeb about the slimmed down Matt Scott (12)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/51166771

With his rediscovered speed an agility, does this give him further kudos in the eyes of Toonie and his fastest brand of rugby on the planet mantra?

by **RDW** Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:30 pm

So turns out the European club with the most players in a 6N squad is.... Edinburgh! 1 more than Leinster.

by tigertattie Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:07 am

RDW wrote:So turns out the European club with the most players in a 6N squad is.... Edinburgh! 1 more than Leinster.

To be fair, we are sitting top of our conference. And it’s the difficult conference. Not the easy peasy one that Leinster are in with the diddy teams like Ospreys, Zebre, Dragons and Glasgow.

by **RDW** Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:21 am

Well Greig signs for Clermont, putting the Glasgow idea to rest (but let's face it who would swap south of France for Glasgow!)

A nice swansong for him - great place to live, will be decent money and a less intense level of rugby

by **BigGee** Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:56 am

When you said Clermont, you did of course mean Perpignan!

Nice place to live and play rugby, even if they have never really regained their former status as one of France premier sides.

The Glasgow move never really made any financial sense as we have to many good or promising SHs already. Better for him to max his earnings as a player for as long as he can then maybe come back as a coach one day.

by **RDW** Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:57 am

Ah yes, glad you're paying attention!

by TheMildlyFranticLlama Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:57 am

RDW wrote:Well Greig signs for Clermont, putting the Glasgow idea to rest (but let's face it who would swap south of France for Glasgow!)

A nice swansong for him - great place to live, will be decent money and a less intense level of rugby

Or Perpignan even. More strong coffee needed this morning flounder?

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