Scotland 6 Nations Thread

[Highland Shaun]

First topic message reminder :

With the 6N fast approaching, I thought I'd be the first to start a thread for it, my team being Scotland because its my nationality lol.

First of all, we know that Danny Wilson won't be coaching as he's off to coach Glasgow plus there are rumours of Matt Taylor the assistant going with Rennie to Australia so that leaves a couple of vacancies available, hopefully after the 6N, the main head coach one will be available too, which I would suspect Richard Cockerill would be the outright fav for, but that's a topic for after the 6N.

So, who would you like to see be in our 6N squad, are there any new caps that are likely, are there any players possibly getting recalls or would we likely see any younger players get a shot.

This is the place to discuss so go ahead .

[BigGee]

VC was a good coach, but he alao had a pretty dismal start and we might view him slightly less fondly if we had lost to Samoa in Newcastle, a match we won by the skin of our teeth.

Interestingly, his midas touch seems to have deserted him since leaving Scotland as well.

There are no easy answers for Scotland in international rugby unfortunately. Our resources are grim compared to many othet countries sitting above us in the rankings and no coach is going to have the answer to that problem. It is what it is.

In many ways, the only surprising thing is that we do as well as we do and on occasions do manage to beat some of the big boys. I think it was McGeechan who said he expected to beat England twice every ten years, which woukd probably be a realistic aim.

Still Toonie can't keep on leading a losing team, i am sure everyone, himself included accepts that.

Chsnging coach though, is not a miracle cure to our ills.

[NeilyBroon]

At this point its not about miracles, its about damage control!

The WC was just over a year into verns reign. The thing is when we played badly we found a way to win. Now when we play badly... well... we just play badly.

Im not saying Vern was the messiah but he did a lot more from a lot lower a point. He also understood how he could get the best out of the players with the style that they played, simple but effective. Toonie started at a high point for Scotland, and rather than taking us forward has taken us backwards to the 2010 era of chucking it about and kicking whilst hoping for a miracle try.

I dont know who would take over but I hope the SRU cast the net very wide as Cockers isnt the answer at this point especially as he'd take hodge with him.

[BigGee]

Sounds like Finn Russell won't be coming back into the fold any time soon.

He has finally done an interview with Mark Palmer in the ST out tomorrow and by the sound of things from the preview, he has totally burned his bridges with Toonie.

You can't help but feel that he might look back at this episode in 10 or 20 years time and regret it somewhat.

[TheMildlyFranticLlama]

Sounds like Finn has now fired his shot and is claiming there is no relationship between him and Gregor, I presume the interview will be out in tomorrow’s papers.

https://twitter.com/stephenjones9/status/1226271501843943425?s=20

https://twitter.com/stephenjones9/status/1226272740862238721?s=20

Scottish rugby, the gift that keeps on giving. Shambles.

[RDW]

Having spent £80 to sit through the freezing wind and rain today there was only one thing going through my mind - we really could have done with Finn.

[majesticimperialman]

Having spent £80 to sit through the freezing wind and rain today there was only one thing going through my mind - we really could have done with Finn.

It is one of those things, would Finn Russel make a difference or not? I thought Hastings was pretty good for most of the game, but with the rain and wind.....would Finn Russell have made a difference? Don't know?

[lostinwales]

You cannot get past the conditions but the game was crying out for a bit of magic, and one score was always likely to be decisive. Maybe Finn could have provided that.

On the other hand maybe he shells one of the high balls that Hastings took and the game is over sooner

[RDW]

Finn's kicking game is outstanding these days and we were entirely reliant on Hogg, who is literally boom or bust. It's all or nothing with him with little variety!

[tigertattie]

Don’t think Finn would have made much of a difference. He’d have flung more wide speculative passes is all.

The game today was lost mainly in two factors.

1. Our line out has been appalling.
Yes the wind was brutal, but you need to change to the conditions. Squint throws to the back. No. Easy middle ball.
At one point we threw the ball in and no lift came. The whole lineout from 1 to 8 is a shambles.

2. Our work at the breakdown was amateur.
In most tackles we were losing the first collision. Both in attack and defence, England were putting in the harder hits. When we did get a bit go forward, nearly every time we didn’t have a blue shirt being the first man to the breakdown. We were getting there after England and when we did get there, the clear outs were ineffective. England on the other hand were getting over the ball and their clear outs gave them good ball.

Cummings, aside from giving away a couple of penalties was non existent today.
Jonny Gray just gets more and more laboured each game. What has happened to him? He’s so passive in the tackle and his carrying is as weak as a small child running up hill at altitude.
Bradbury was pointless.
Brown was utterly knickers again.
Sam Johnson is still showing me a man who was a one season wonder in the 18/19 season.
Hogg, one bit of good play is all I’ve seen from him. He’s lost his spark but still has his juvenile tendencies.

Italy up next will likely give a win and will be the plaster over the gaping wound.

This team need a clear out or a new coach.

Hard to fathom but Hogg, Gray and other players who are simply not performing need a kick up the backside or dropped. Maybe they think they are undroppable which is why they are producing such mince performances???

[nlpnlp]

I thought we were poor, but thankfully you were worse. I think that you were very naïve. England have a real problem with a flanker playing no 8 who clearly has no idea what he is doing. In the France game Dupont pressurised the no 8 and 9 and this lead to multiple turnovers. For some reason Price went and stood behind his own scrum and let England have all the time and space they needed to get the ball out of the scrum, Your lineout was poor. I like Jonny Gray but he just seems to have no edge. I didn't see a lot from Ritchie today either. Scotland are clearly lacking something which is why they have lost to Ireland and England when they could/should have won both games.

[BigGee]

There is a version of the Finn interview on the offside line, so not behind a paywall. It will try and paste it up later if no-one else gets there first.

It does not look good for their future and hard to see how there can be any reconcillistion now. It is also hard to see how this can be good for the team in the middle of a tournament something Finn may or may not have considered.

Lots of references to how much better things were under Vern, which will please those who widh he had never been released. Hard to imagine VC would have taken well to being challenged by his star player in such a fashion though.

Some of his stuff about the way Scotland are playing now under Toonie is a bit questionable as well. Both Glasgow and Scotland have been allowed to play freely under his regimes, which he clearly likes, trouble is everyone bar Finn knows it does not always work, especially at international level where the most successful sides tend to be the more prsgmatic ones that plsy the odds a bit more. He does not seem to wsnt to do thst.

If Finn's object here is for Toonie to get sacked and then come back in to the new regime, he may get his wish now.

He should be aware though that History does not always judge the provider of a Regicide very well.

He may find the next coach does not wsnt to plsy crazy chuck sbout rugby either!

[NeilyBroon]

Don’t think Finn would have made much of a difference. He’d have flung more wide speculative passes is all.

The game today was lost mainly in two factors.

1. Our line out has been appalling.
Yes the wind was brutal, but you need to change to the conditions. Squint throws to the back. No. Easy middle ball.
At one point we threw the ball in and no lift came. The whole lineout from 1 to 8 is a shambles.

2. Our work at the breakdown was amateur.
In most tackles we were losing the first collision. Both in attack and defence, England were putting in the harder hits. When we did get a bit go forward, nearly every time we didn’t have a blue shirt being the first man to the breakdown. We were getting there after England and when we did get there, the clear outs were ineffective. England on the other hand were getting over the ball and their clear outs gave them good ball.

Cummings, aside from giving away a couple of penalties was non existent today.
Jonny Gray just gets more and more laboured each game. What has happened to him? He’s so passive in the tackle and his carrying is as weak as a small child running up hill at altitude.
Bradbury was pointless.
Brown was utterly knickers again.
Sam Johnson is still showing me a man who was a one season wonder in the 18/19 season.
Hogg, one bit of good play is all I’ve seen from him. He’s lost his spark but still has his juvenile tendencies.

Italy up next will likely give a win and will be the plaster over the gaping wound.

This team need a clear out or a new coach.

Hard to fathom but Hogg, Gray and other players who are simply not performing need a kick up the backside or dropped. Maybe they think they are undroppable which is why they are producing such mince performances???

Agree on Finn, hard to see how he would have made a difference if we can't finish opportunities as is.

Also agree on Gray. He was flopping over 3 steps earlier if that is even possible. He catches the ball then seems to collapse out of the excitement. He's like one of those fainting goats. Baxter, please fix him. In the meantime I'd have GG in. Whilst he's in the same sort of mold he seems to make a couple more yards.

Bradbury was atrocious and shouldn't be on the bench next week based on that performance. I've never seen an 8 knocked back so many times. It's not as if he's a small lad. Toonie should have hooked him sooner. Maybe still struggling with injury or something but that was a poor coaching decision as much as it was Bradbury. I thought Watson was surprisingly anonymous. Usually he's causing trouble at the breakdown but we seem to have given up on the breakdown entirely. Dunno whether that's coached or whether he's just not feeling 100%.

On a brighter note was Fagerson who I thought looked the pick of our forwards. Just a shame about the scrum, which was always going to be difficult against England. Sutherland also had a decent enough game, which is reassuring.

The last point is my biggest worry. Beat Italy well and Toonie et co. will have an excuse to hang about. It's like the world cup where we thrashed two pretty awful sides only to be knocked out. I hope the azzuri are looking at us with hope, because we need to lose against them to get change that we need at the moment. My fear is that Toonie will have caused irreversible damage to this generation of players and leave a mess that will take years to resolve. Putting us back again and leaving problems for another coach to solve. Like how he left a messy Glasgow side for Rennie.

So many 'should haves' for the SRU. If Toonie was threatening to go, let him. He could clearly have done with coaching experience, and it may have actually shown him up as the naive coach that we see now. Scotland may not have been world beaters with VC in charge but they were finally becoming a bit more consistent, and you can't help but feel we may have beaten Ireland on both occassions and made it through to the QFs and be looking at least at one victory this 6Ns so far.

People will point to improved performances, but why have we had to go to improved performances when we'd already improved before? It feels like if I smashed a window then glued the pieces back together, pointed at it and said, "Look, it's okay, it's improved".

[RDW]

https://www.theoffsideline.com/finn-russell-breaks-silence-for-the-first-time-since-scotland-walk-out/

I can't see any way back from here - some damming stuff in there. It's such a difficult one to deal with for Townsend now and for the good of the team the only option is he's not selected for the rest of the tournament and they make that call now - not stringing it out before every game and having the same debate.

Townsend has been very tight lipped about his version of events so I'm sure he's pretty seething about this and would love to give his side of the story. I can't see that happening though.

It's such a sad state of affairs though to lose our best 10 of a generation.

[TJ]

.......................
It does not look good for their future and hard to see how there can be any reconcillistion now. It is also hard to see how this can be good for the team in the middle of a tournament  something Finn may or may not have considered.

.........................

This is about the least damaging time he could have done this - two weeks until the next game? to me that shows some consideration. Its a considered response released at sa time that will be the least distraction.

[NeilyBroon]

There is a version of the Finn interview on the offside line, so not behind a paywall. It will try and paste it up later if no-one else gets there first.

It does not look good for their future and hard to see how there can be any reconcillistion now. It is also hard to see how this can be good for the team in the middle of a tournament  something Finn may or may not have considered.

Lots of references to how much better things were under Vern, which will please those who widh he had never been released. Hard to imagine VC would have taken well to being challenged by his star player in such a fashion though.

Some of his stuff about the way Scotland are playing now under Toonie is a bit questionable as well. Both Glasgow and Scotland have been allowed to play freely under his regimes, which he clearly likes, trouble is everyone bar Finn knows it does not always work, especially at international level  where the most successful sides tend to be the more prsgmatic ones that plsy the odds a bit more. He does not seem to wsnt to do thst.

If Finn's object here is for Toonie to get sacked and then come back in to the new regime, he may get his wish now.

He should be aware though that History does not always judge the provider of a Regicide very well.

He may find the next coach does not wsnt to plsy crazy chuck sbout rugby either!

For those wanting the article:
https://www.theoffsideline.com/finn-russell-breaks-silence-for-the-first-time-since-scotland-walk-out/

Actually I think reading what he said, he seemed to think that Vern's plan was a lot more pragmatic and simple. Not necessarily chuck about rugby. A plan that didn't necessarily allow you to force things but gave you some flexibility too.

I dunno, I find a lot of what he's saying quite believable but I'll always be biased against Toonie because I thought he was a big mistake from the get-go.

I particularly find what he's saying about relatability and flexibility believable, just thinking about the accounts about anonymous player's mum from the WC, and watching interviews with Toonie. He's a bit of an SRU robot really, I've seen more personality in interviews with Mark Zuckerberg. I also remember the media during the times with Cotter et co. and the players were talking about the things they'd discussed with Cotter and the jokes they'd shared. None of that now.

I still think it's a bit of Finn being a prima donna. However I think a lot of the points he raises are valid, and it wouldn't surprise me if there's a lot of truth in the way it's been handled by Toonie as we have discovered, he's a very stubborn man.

[BigGee]

Toonie is constrained by his position and can't tell us what he really thinks. We might have to wait for the autobiography or the post sacking (assuming no gagging contract) newspaper splash for that!

Another thing that csme over in the interview to me having re read it, is that Finn does not seem to have processed very well that things hsve chsnged since he moved to France.

He talks about arriving late and being left out of the senior players discussion.

Playing fof 13 weeks in a row.

Having to fly back to France and missing the night out.

These things are true but are unfortunately the side effects of going to earn the big bucks in France and it does seem that maybe he has not squsred the circle on thst situation.

Other players who have played away from Scotland like Barclay and Laidlaw have talked about making adjustments to that situation but i am not sure ghat Finn has got that yet.

Maybe it is no coincidence thst his dissatisfaction with playing for Scotland has grown with the extra pressure of him playing abroad.

[RDW]

This very much reinforces the influence Laidlaw had on things IMO - I'm sure he has been the mediator in all this given how much Finn respects him.

I wonder if this article would have come out if we won yesterday...

[BigGee]

mark palmer has just put out a few tweets giving some context to the interview. It happened midweek, but under strict instructions from Finn that no publishing of anything till after the match and that he made clear he did it prior to the fallow week, to ensure minimal disruption (TJ was right about that one)

He also says that it was not done without thought nor without angst on Finn's part, the whole saga has been bothering him a lot.

He also throws out a bit of hope, saying that he does hope he can work with Toonie again, but that there needs to be trust. So not totally burning bridges.

I guess the ball is in Toonie's court now, how is he going to react to this and can he be the bigger man?

[TheMildlyFranticLlama]

For someone who seems to pride himself on studying other coaches and trying to learn from different sports, Gregor’s man management skills are appalling.

To have your most important player backed into a position where he feels like his opinion isn’t even being heard, that’s unacceptable. I firmly believe Gregor is constrained as much by his own shortcomings as a head coach as he his by his position as an SRU employee. I really worry about what is bubbling under the surface with the rest of the squad who can’t openly talk about the situation now.

[NeilyBroon]

Well I think Toonie's time is up. This will be his last 6Ns. I'm not saying that because I want it (although I do) but I think it's hard to come back from this. It's very much like the Wales-Ruddock situation, although it's not coach initiated.

Hard to see how he can maintain a position where one of his main playmakers is speaking out publicly against his methods. It'd be different if Finn wasn't one of the form 10s in Europe but he is and I feel his opinion means a lot in the public scope.

[bsando]

My take from that interview..

1) If it's true that the players made a rule that you were allowed 2 beers only at dinner and Russell only found out that night then that isn't very fair. If they made a list of rules he should have firstly been involved in creating them as a senior player and secondly informed about them via whatsapp or however the senior players communicate before the dinner. Russell, however, could have listened and obeyed and swallowed his annoyance. However, is that a healthy todo and how does that benefit the team environment?

2) If Townsend really did send a cryptically confusing text on Wednesday of  ‘if you want to go back to Racing, you are free to do that from today. Let me know if you decide to go back.’ then that is s**t management of a player regardless of what he did. To me that leans heavily towards, "we don't want you here, let us know when you leave".
      Rugby players and athletes in general like things laid out simply for them. If Townsend was fishing for an apology he needed to make that clear and obvious and set about how Russell should go about saying it, for example, "At training on Thursday, if you decide to stay, I would like you to apologise to your team mates and lead by example before you fly back to France for your club game at the weekend." He didn't need to say 'we need you here' or anything like that, but at least make it crystal clear he has a way back into the squad.

3) “A lot our game plan last year revolved around stats and kicking, and for me that’s not rugby,” he said. “Just play the game. Under Vern, it was a very simple game plan but you could play anything off it. Some of the [Scotland] meetings last year, it was like, ‘what are [we] actually trying to do here?’ It’s hard for the other boys to say anything. They’re contracted to the SRU. I know that’s also been the case [with what’s been said publicly] in the last couple of weeks. They’ve been building up to games, and [team] media [activity] these days is so controlled.”

That is deeply concerning and the first real clear and obvious evidence that Townsend's game plan is confusing and overly elaborate for the players. Stats and all the technical aspects of a game are obviously important and we've all seen Moneyball. Do the player need to worry about that though? It's a hard no from me. They just need to focus on their game and how they can perform to the best of their abilities. The VC game plan was excellent and I would say that game plan added with a touch of Toonie was even better, hence the incredible performances in the Autumn of 2017. Now we've been in full Toonie mode for a few seasons it's clearly not working the way it should or how we may have hoped.

Russell is clearly being a bit precious though and I still think Scotland can still have a successful 6N. The cracks have really opened up though and a loss to Italy in 2 weeks will surely mean Townsend will be out of a job after the 6N concludes. Without all the Russell problems I wouldn't have been so sure but this really isn't a good place for Scottish Rugby to be.

[NeilyBroon]

My take from that interview..

1) If it's true that the players made a rule that you were allowed 2 beers only at dinner and Russell only found out that night then that isn't very fair. If they made a list of rules he should have firstly been involved in creating them as a senior player and secondly informed about them via whatsapp or however the senior players communicate before the dinner. Russell, however, could have listened and obeyed and swallowed his annoyance. However, is that a healthy todo and how does that benefit the team environment?

2) If Townsend really did send a cryptically confusing text on Wednesday of  ‘if you want to go back to Racing, you are free to do that from today. Let me know if you decide to go back.’ then that is s**t management of a player regardless of what he did. To me that leans heavily towards, "we don't want you here, let us know when you leave".
      Rugby players and athletes in general like things laid out simply for them. If Townsend was fishing for an apology he needed to make that clear and obvious and set about how Russell should go about saying it, for example, "At training on Thursday, if you decide to stay, I would like you to apologise to your team mates and lead by example before you fly back to France for your club game at the weekend." He didn't need to say 'we need you here' or anything like that, but at least make it crystal clear he has a way back into the squad.

3) “A lot our game plan last year revolved around stats and kicking, and for me that’s not rugby,” he said. “Just play the game. Under Vern, it was a very simple game plan but you could play anything off it. Some of the [Scotland] meetings last year, it was like, ‘what are [we] actually trying to do here?’ It’s hard for the other boys to say anything. They’re contracted to the SRU. I know that’s also been the case [with what’s been said publicly] in the last couple of weeks. They’ve been building up to games, and [team] media [activity] these days is so controlled.”

That is deeply concerning and the first real clear and obvious evidence that Townsend's game plan is confusing and overly elaborate for the players. Stats and all the technical aspects of a game are obviously important and we've all seen Moneyball. Do the player need to worry about that though? It's a hard no from me. They just need to focus on their game and how they can perform to the best of their abilities. The VC game plan was excellent and I would say that game plan added with a touch of Toonie was even better, hence the incredible performances in the Autumn of 2017. Now we've been in full Toonie mode for a few seasons it's clearly not working the way it should or how we may have hoped.

Russell is clearly being a bit precious though and I still think Scotland can still have a successful 6N. The cracks have really opened up though and a loss to Italy in 2 weeks will surely mean Townsend will be out of a job after the 6N concludes. Without all the Russell problems I wouldn't have been so sure but this really isn't a good place for Scottish Rugby to be.

My worry is that won't happen, given that Italy are in even worse shape than us which, as I said before, could be Toonie's getout if we put in an obligatory decent performance against weaker opposition (with no disrespect intended).

Not to mention for Toonie to leave it'll require Dodson backtracking as well. I doubt many clubs would want Toonie at the moment, so it's not like he will be "poached" or will have any motivation to leave on his own steam.

This is going to be a horrible six nations, the sooner we can put it behind us and move on, the better.

[BigGee]

I am not going to give up on the 6n just yet

We have lost two games that in all honesty most of us would have expected to lose and there have been decent take aways from both games, notably our defence being much improved.

What we are badly lacking at the moment is confidence, we have forgotten how to win. A trip to Italy at this time is just what is required and might just be the spark we need.

If we were ever likely to get anything from this tournament, then it was going to be in these last three games. France are always beatable away from home and they have not done well at Murrayfield for a while and are most certainly not the finished article yet.

Wales are also in a bit of transition at the moment and have some hard games to come before they play us. If we could go to Cardiff on the last weekend with a bit of momentum, then who knows.

I said at the beginning of the tournament to judge Toonie and the team at the end and still don't think that has changed.

[BigGee]

What would you do if you were Toonie?

This moment is probably the one and only chance to sort this out, if it is allowed to fester on any longer, then it becomes an irretrievable situation, if it is not there already.

Should he get on a plane and go to Paris and talk to Finn face to face? They both said that when they talked on the Monday after the event, it was positive.

The alternative would be to try and use some sort of respected middle man like GL or JB. to see if they can find any common ground between them.

Or does he just say sod him, we don't need him in our team, he is causing more problems than he is solving.

If it was me, I think I would be on the Ryanair website booking a ticket to Paris on Monday. It would surely be worth a try.

[Gooseberry]

Shouldn't fin get on a plane to Scotland and speak to him? They have inflight drinks served.

Then again neither of them probably can with all the weather vs airports.

[RDW]

Whatever happens the ball is now in Townsend's court - Finn had played all his cards now. I hope Townsend gets on the plane.

[TJ]

The key thing for me is Hogg and the rest of the team? Who will they side with?

[SecretFly]

If it was me, I think I would be on the Ryanair website booking a ticket to Paris on Monday. It would surely be worth a try.

Two proud, defiant men and one of them has to concede all territory by hopping on the plane?  Nah, for Townsend that would be a 'begging letter'; "please come back!  I need you!"  Don't think his personality can do that.

Nope.  Think this probably needs the SRU to get engaged in their overlord capacity.  Who is that man in charge that went to Japan for the press conference?  Him.  
He probably needs to get off the silent fence, see that a situation needs a resolution, inform Townsend that he is an employee, inform Russell that he still has a potentially happy future playing for his Nation for a few more years yet.... and kinda order both of them in some such ultimatum to find a time in perhaps Neutral London (halfway house) to meet in some Airport lounge/hotel and end the nonsense.  Both are hurt and growling.  

Russell is saying things to hurt someone that has hurt him.  That higher SRU authority has to command a meeting as that takes any 'climb down' factor out of the equation for both stubborn men.

[Yoda]

Guys don't despair, I can't see how throwing your coach, players out will help. You can quite clearly see both teams team yesterday haven't had a very settled start to the tournament, Finn Russell and saracens have had a very disturbing effect on both squads. This is going to sound really weird saying this and even as I write it it doesn't sit right, Scotland are better in the dry and wet weather doesn't suit your style of play. Get the srfu to stick a plastic pitch down at murreyfield and keep the ball moving.

[123456789.]

Russell’s not coming back:
“People might not think it’s the right thing to do, but for me I believe it is. I believe we need change, it needs to move in a different route. We’re tracking along a road and it’s not been working for us, and it’s especially not been working for me”

[TJ]

yoda - Murrayfield is a semi synthetic pitch

[BigGee]

https://www.theoffsideline.com/analysis-finn-russell-scottish-rugby/

A good bit of analysis of the situation here.

Maybe Mallinder (I had forgotten about him, but he is now apparently in post) is the guy to get on the plane and indulge in some discrete diplomacy.

This situation is going to keep following Scotland around like a bad smell until it is resolved one way or the other, Finn back in the fold or Toonie sacked.

[BigGee]

yoda - Murrayfield is a semi synthetic pitch

I agree we are not a wet weather side any more, but what we need is a roof, not a plastic pitch!

[RDW]

If it was me, I think I would be on the Ryanair website booking a ticket to Paris on Monday. It would surely be worth a try.

Two proud, defiant men and one of them has to concede all territory by hopping on the plane?  Nah, for Townsend that would be a 'begging letter'; "please come back!  I need you!"  Don't think his personality can do that.

Nope.  Think this probably needs the SRU to get engaged in their overlord capacity.  Who is that man in charge that went to Japan for the press conference?  Him.  
He probably needs to get off the silent fence, see that a situation needs a resolution, inform Townsend that he is an employee, inform Russell that he still has a potentially happy future playing for his Nation for a few more years yet.... and kinda order both of them in some such ultimatum to find a time in perhaps Neutral London (halfway house) to meet in some Airport lounge/hotel and end the nonsense.  Both are hurt and growling.  

Russell is saying things to hurt someone that has hurt him.  That higher SRU authority has to command a meeting as that takes any 'climb down' factor out of the equation for both stubborn men.

He was found to have unlawfully sacked Finn's dad - don't think that would be the best idea.

[RDW]

https://www.theoffsideline.com/analysis-finn-russell-scottish-rugby/

A good bit of analysis of the situation here.

Maybe Mallinder (I had forgotten about him, but he is now apparently in post) is the guy to get on the plane and indulge in some discrete diplomacy.

This situation is going to keep following Scotland around like a bad smell until it is resolved one way or the other, Finn back in the fold or Toonie sacked.

That is such a depressing read.

I hadn't realised we weren't actually debt free?? That was one of the main arguments for putting up with Dodson!

[BigGee]

https://www.theoffsideline.com/analysis-finn-russell-scottish-rugby/

A good bit of analysis of the situation here.

Maybe Mallinder (I had forgotten about him, but he is now apparently in post) is the guy to get on the plane and indulge in some discrete diplomacy.

This situation is going to keep following Scotland around like a bad smell until it is resolved one way or the other, Finn back in the fold or Toonie sacked.

That is such a depressing read.

I hadn't realised we weren't actually debt free?? That was one of the main arguments for putting up with Dodson!

The debt free thing is a bit of a moot point, you can argue it by some forms of accountancy speak, but the anti Dodson brigade of journalists have been calling it out as spin for a while now.

In reality, an organisation like the SRU will always have some debt, if they were not borrowing some money (with current interest rates) with their assets and pretty much guaranteed income, you would probably have to ask why?

There are lots of bad things about the current set of people running the SRU, but it is hard to say that they have not turned around the financial aspects of the organisation, regardless of how they spin our debt situation.

[BigGee]

Twitter and social media in general may or may not be the best forums for evaluating how the interview has gone down generally.

Looking at that though, you might say from Finn's perspective, maybe not as well as he might have hoped.

The Glasgow warriors forum, always a bastion of clear and impartial thinking, that has a strong anti SRU feeling about it generally has probably on balance come down against Finn's behaviour. It is a difficult one for Glasgow fans to see two of their favourite sons falling out in this way and you can see why fans are torn. Despite FR saying that this problem was years in the making, it is hard to remember that in the days when Toonie brought him into the Glasgow team and let him have his head playing in a care free way that developed his style as a player. There was no obvious signs of disharmony back then as we remember it.

A few other pretty even handed and respected sports journalists, that don't really specialise in rugby, like Richard More and Neil Drysdale have come down against Finn's interview saying he has not come out of it looking good.

I guess what this shows more than anything is that there is nothing clear cut about this at all and blame lies with both parties. If they could both see that then a solution might be possible.

[SecretFly]

If it was me, I think I would be on the Ryanair website booking a ticket to Paris on Monday. It would surely be worth a try.

Two proud, defiant men and one of them has to concede all territory by hopping on the plane?  Nah, for Townsend that would be a 'begging letter'; "please come back!  I need you!"  Don't think his personality can do that.

Nope.  Think this probably needs the SRU to get engaged in their overlord capacity.  Who is that man in charge that went to Japan for the press conference?  Him.  
He probably needs to get off the silent fence, see that a situation needs a resolution, inform Townsend that he is an employee, inform Russell that he still has a potentially happy future playing for his Nation for a few more years yet.... and kinda order both of them in some such ultimatum to find a time in perhaps Neutral London (halfway house) to meet in some Airport lounge/hotel and end the nonsense.  Both are hurt and growling.  

Russell is saying things to hurt someone that has hurt him.  That higher SRU authority has to command a meeting as that takes any 'climb down' factor out of the equation for both stubborn men.

He was found to have unlawfully sacked Finn's dad - don't think that would be the best idea.

Oops! Out of the frying pan etc etc etc.

[lostinwales]

Sad to say but you can't have one player bigger than the rest of the squad, even if it is Finn Russell.

Without outside forces putting pressure on both the only way he's coming back is if Townsend is gone.

[jimbopip]

Russell’s not coming back:
“People might not think it’s the right thing to do, but for me I believe it is. I believe we need change, it needs to move in a different route. We’re tracking along a road and it’s not been working for us, and it’s especially not been working for me”

This more than anything will make a rapprochement extremely unlikely.

Here's the little I know.

Toonie micro manages teams. He researches the opposition to the nth degree and gives the players very detailed game plans. If you have paid attention to his post match interviews you will know this. Interestingly, he never seems to crow about the forensic detail when Glasgow/ Scotland win rather focusses on praising the team but often accepts the blame after defeat. Usually, "We really did our homework and thought we had them sussed but they surprised us by....". Thereby taking the blame away from the players.

Toonie is massively influenced by the writings of John Wooden. Many of Wooden's former players still talk of him as being a surrogate father for them. However, he had no time for egos and if you weren't able to put the team above your self then you were out. Right out. Way out.

My reading; Finn doesn't believe in what Toonie is doing, Toonie believes in what Toonie is doing, either Finn is put on the naughty step and isn't allowed out to play until he agrees to follow instructions OR Toonie is awarded the Order Of The Glorious P45.

I believe Toonie will stay. Dodson wouldn't want to pay him off and then dig deep for a new coach. Any new coach with a decent sized pair of cojones would leave Finn out in the cold: if he undermined one coach why wouldn't he do it again?

I think it's on page one of the John Wooden Coaching For Dummies manual. Stare into the bathroom mirror every morning and repeat 50 times, "This is how we do things, if you don't like it there's the door."

I also felt from about 20 minutes in that there would be only one winner yesterday. I believed we could win but I knew what was coming. However, realistically Ireland and England are very difficult matches, losing by 7 points is not the end of the world. Also, RDW, Sam Johnson flattened May in minute 1 and spent the rest of his afternoon smashing every white jersy he could. That's a good game for me.

[RDW]

Russell’s not coming back:
“People might not think it’s the right thing to do, but for me I believe it is. I believe we need change, it needs to move in a different route. We’re tracking along a road and it’s not been working for us, and it’s especially not been working for me”

This more than anything will make a rapprochement extremely unlikely.

Here's the little I know.

Toonie micro manages teams. He researches the opposition to the nth degree and gives the players very detailed game plans.  If you have paid attention to his post match interviews you will know this. Interestingly, he never seems to crow about the forensic detail when Glasgow/ Scotland win rather focusses on praising the team but often accepts the blame after defeat. Usually, "We really did our homework and thought we had them sussed but they surprised us by....". Thereby taking the blame away from the players.

Toonie is massively influenced by the writings of John Wooden. Many of Wooden's former players still talk of him as being a surrogate father for them. However, he had no time for egos and if you weren't able to put the team above your self then you were out. Right out. Way out.

My reading; Finn doesn't believe in what Toonie is doing, Toonie believes in what Toonie is doing, either Finn is put on the naughty step and isn't allowed out to play until he agrees to follow instructions OR Toonie is awarded the Order Of The Glorious P45.

I believe Toonie will stay. Dodson wouldn't want to pay him off and then dig deep for a new coach. Any new coach with a decent sized pair of cojones would leave Finn out in the cold: if he undermined one coach why wouldn't he do it again?

I think it's on page one of the John Wooden Coaching For Dummies manual. Stare into the bathroom mirror every morning and repeat 50 times, "This is how we do things, if you don't like it there's the door."

I also felt from about 20 minutes in that there would be only one winner yesterday. I believed we could win but I knew what was coming. However, realistically Ireland and England are very difficult matches, losing by 7 points is not the end of the world. Also, RDW, Sam Johnson flattened May in minute 1 and spent the rest of his afternoon smashing every white jersy he could. That's a good game for me.

I didn't say SJ had a bad game?

My post on the other thread said we could have done with Scott on the bench, who would have been a lot more useful in those conditions then bringing Hutchinson on.

[jimbopip]

I've just read the article on the Offside Line page. Speaking as an English teacher I've always found that if you pay attention to the words people use, when writing or speaking, you can usually work out what they are actually, really, saying.
Finn's interview contains a huge number of "I, me, my". Not too many "us, team, group". Also, alcohol features a lot.

Not an uplifting interview.

[jimbopip]

Russell’s not coming back:
“People might not think it’s the right thing to do, but for me I believe it is. I believe we need change, it needs to move in a different route. We’re tracking along a road and it’s not been working for us, and it’s especially not been working for me”

This more than anything will make a rapprochement extremely unlikely.

Here's the little I know.

Toonie micro manages teams. He researches the opposition to the nth degree and gives the players very detailed game plans.  If you have paid attention to his post match interviews you will know this. Interestingly, he never seems to crow about the forensic detail when Glasgow/ Scotland win rather focusses on praising the team but often accepts the blame after defeat. Usually, "We really did our homework and thought we had them sussed but they surprised us by....". Thereby taking the blame away from the players.

Toonie is massively influenced by the writings of John Wooden. Many of Wooden's former players still talk of him as being a surrogate father for them. However, he had no time for egos and if you weren't able to put the team above your self then you were out. Right out. Way out.

My reading; Finn doesn't believe in what Toonie is doing, Toonie believes in what Toonie is doing, either Finn is put on the naughty step and isn't allowed out to play until he agrees to follow instructions OR Toonie is awarded the Order Of The Glorious P45.

I believe Toonie will stay. Dodson wouldn't want to pay him off and then dig deep for a new coach. Any new coach with a decent sized pair of cojones would leave Finn out in the cold: if he undermined one coach why wouldn't he do it again?

I think it's on page one of the John Wooden Coaching For Dummies manual. Stare into the bathroom mirror every morning and repeat 50 times, "This is how we do things, if you don't like it there's the door."

I also felt from about 20 minutes in that there would be only one winner yesterday. I believed we could win but I knew what was coming. However, realistically Ireland and England are very difficult matches, losing by 7 points is not the end of the world. Also, RDW, Sam Johnson flattened May in minute 1 and spent the rest of his afternoon smashing every white jersy he could. That's a good game for me.

I didn't say SJ had a bad game?

My post on the other thread said we could have done with Scott on the bench, who would have been a lot more useful in those conditions then bringing Hutchinson on.

Mea culpa, Flounder, it was tigertattie But he's a prop. What would he know.

[BigGee]

I thought SJ had a decent enough game as well Jim. He has a pretty good case (him or Zander) to be called our best player over the 2 games.

I can also see why he did not bring Hutch or Horne on towards the end of the match, that would just have been a case of new players trying to adjust themselves to the conditions and it was always going to be a game decided by a mistake rather than a piece of skill, hence why we were still kicking it even towards the end, there was not a hope in the world we were going to run it out and the chances of going more than a few plays without turning the ball over were nearly nil in those conditions.

I hope that Hutchinson and Horne get their chance against Italy though. They both deserve a start and a chance to light up a game. I hope that we might see a few changes for that game. Skinner and Graham might be back and maybe Richie Gray, or if not then lets have a look at Craig.

Berghan got mashed in the scrum when he came on, so maybe WP might be needed for a little bit longer.

If, as seems likely, Toonie and Finn don't kiss and make up, then Hastings will get a chance to run a game in a less stressful match against Italian players he knows a lot better than the English. I think he did ok yesterday as well and am not convinced it was ever a day for Finn, who might have tried something crazy in any case. If Hastings plays all 5 games in this championship, he is going to end it a much stronger and more experienced player than when he started, which can only be a good thing for Scottish rugby, whatever the outcome with Finn.

[blindsided]

Arrrgh, very difficult to see a way back for Finn in the short term. I sympathise with him to a degree, but I don't think he's come across brilliantly.

My main thing though is why does he need the third beer? We say (and I agree!) that he's world class and one of the best 10s in the world. Let's compare him to other world class sportsmen. Can anyone imagine Andy Murray or any of the other top tennis players having 3 beers on a Sunday night 1 week before Wimbledon? I get that he's annoyed he wasn't part of the decision to limit the number of drinks. But, honestly, suck it up that night and discuss it the next day! You're a professional sportsman, you don't need the 3rd beer 1 week before the biggest tournament of the year!

[No 7&1/2]

I do t necessarily think a few beers is a bad thing but the quotes dont suggest that russell is really a team guy.

'Russell had "two beers with dinner" and "ordered another one", which is when things started to unravel.

He added in The Times: "The players at dinner were like, 'no more drinking'.

"These are guys I know well, so I said, 'what’s the problem, I’ve just played, I just want a couple of beers' and they said that’s what the leaders had agreed.

"I’m part of the leaders group, but they’d had the meeting before I got there. I’d not had a say. So for me, straight away, it was set up pretty poorly.'

[BigGee]

The Scotland team had Josh Taylor, the boxing champion, in to speak to them prior to the game, talking about getting into the right mindset for a big fight.

Perhaps he should also have talked to them about the self sacrifice that goes on for a boxer. or a cyclist in preparing themselves for a competition and in particular about getting the weight down to the required levels, which are often un naturally low for an adult. They have to starve themselves, literally counting every calorie they consume, whilst still training like maniacs. They probably consume as much in a week as an 8000 calorie a day rugby player does in a week.

I am in the camp that thinks that if 2 beers was what was agreed, then FR should have been able to stick to it, especially as that was a decision that came from the players and not from the coach.

No-one has really broken ranks amongst the players yet publicly, though we have had a few clues from EWTs mole, but I think that a lot of the other players, including some friends of Finn's will be less than impressed at what he has done.

[SecretFly]

I do t necessarily think a few beers is a bad thing but the quotes dont suggest that russell is really a team guy.

'Russell had "two beers with dinner" and "ordered another one", which is when things started to unravel.

He added in The Times: "The players at dinner were like, 'no more drinking'.

"These are guys I know well, so I said, 'what’s the problem, I’ve just played, I just want a couple of beers' and they said that’s what the leaders had agreed.

"I’m part of the leaders group, but they’d had the meeting before I got there. I’d not had a say. So for me, straight away, it was set up pretty poorly.'

Seems to me from things like that, if he's telling his tale honestly and why wouldn't he as he knows he'll be contradicted if not - but if he is being honest then it appears to me that there were tensions already, NOT between Townsend and Russell, but between the leaders of the pack as it were at player level.

Seems players were ready to hop on Finn's extra drink automatically.  Doesn't really sound like a happy meal of chats and laughs whilst eating, moreso people waiting for that moment to strike.  Showdown time.

Anyway, I hardly ever drink.... maybe some wine around Christmas period, that's it.  But if that truly is the moment and the issue that set things off - one extra drink poured - then I'd be fully on Finn's side.  Absolute bullschidt.  Kinda supposedly like the supposedly ultra controlling environment in Schmidt's Ireland camp.  I really don't think drink was the cause of Scottish disappointments on the field.

I'm wondering now if Russell and Hogg are pals or get along.  New Captain and coincidentally new drink rules that a senior player doesn't get told about until he pours the offending drink.  Hmmmmmm........ set up?

[BigGee]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/51435168

The Tom English take, very good as always

[123456789.]

From what I can see there's so many moving pieces and pillocks in this saga that there's no obvious end in sight:

1. Pillock Number One: Dodson
- Sacked Vern Cotter when things were going fine, we were playing good rugby and we were finally beating teams. In 2017 we had a Championship decider for the first time since 1999. Admittedly it did not go well.
- Allowed Townsend to bounce himself into the top job, by extension making him and his fortune's wholly intertwined with Townsend
- Sacked Keith Russell in dubious circumstances. I don't know the details and, obviously, it should not have been the case that just because he was our best player's Dad he was untouchable and beyond accountability with regard to performance or behaviour. However, there was no doubt it was managed terribly. In some respects, it's a minor miracle this Finn Russell has remained involved as long as he has
- Threatened to sue a Typhoon. In the short term managed to get the game on, in the long term looks terrible
- After all of the above received a salary more than twice the Irish CEOs, the Irish having won three Six Nations during Dodson's tenure and Leinster having won multiple Champions Cup and Pro14. The Irish have four pro teams. The Irish youth teams have done better than ours. The Irish have three other large team sports to compete with. Also received more than the Welsh CEO, who have also won multiple Six Nations in Dodson's time.
- Managed to get a bonus despite all of the above

However, he had done a markedly better job than his predecessor. He also did a pretty good job with Sponsorship. A sort of Ed Woodward figure (the Manchester United CEO). A very good money man who has no great handle on the sport in question and little grasp of how people interact in what really amounts to a leisure activity for the vast, vast majority of the people involved.

2. Pillock Number Two: Townsend
- Bounced himself into the top job ahead of our best coach for years and years. Regardless of what he achieved at Glasgow leveraging Vern Cotter out of his job was a dick move and the behaviour of a megalomaniac
- Has overseen a gradual decline, despite some notable aberrations, from Autumn 2017. That has included Hogg and Jones going somewhat off of the boil
- Has implemented a fairly awful kicking strategy that does not suit our strengths
- Oversaw our worst ever world cup. In 2011 we were a combined five points off qualifying with a much less talented side
- Has obviously not got man management skills worth talking about. He knew there was an issue with Russell so why has he not been on the phone trying to solve it?

I’ve spoken to Gregor two weeks beforehand to tell him how I was feeling and not heard back for 10 days. What’s going on? It’s also the case that a night out after England is fine for the boys employed by the SRU who will have that next week off, but me and some of the other boys will be back to play for our clubs. I know it can’t be changed for one person, but at least if we get a say at the time, we can come to an agreement. Again, though, it’s not about drink, it’s about the whole environment.

-Has allowed this whole saga to be blow out of all proportion

However, he is the only coach, ever, to deliver a title winning side. With Russell in it. For all of Racing's wealth and how amazing it is for Russell himself. They haven't won anything yet. Whilst things have, generally, got worse he has delivered on some amazing performances. England in 2018, New Zealand in 2019, being the obvious examples. But then they also featured Russell, Hogg and Jones playing at a level for Scotland that they don't look like repeating anytime soon.

3. Pillock Number Three: Russell himself
- Ignored his teammates, not Townsend. The dispute between two or three drinks seems stupid from all involved. But not least Russell himself. If he wanted to play as much as he said he does for Scotland he'd have moved past it and seethed in his room

“The players at dinner were like, ‘no more drinking’. These are guys I know well, so I said, ‘what’s the problem, I’ve just played, I just want a couple of beers’ and they said that’s what the leaders had agreed. I’m part of the leaders group, but they’d had the meeting before I got there. I’d not had a say. So for me, straight away, it was set up pretty poorly.

- Failed to turn up the next day. No need to further explain. That's pretty poor form
- Getting your friends to brief for you against their coach within the camp is really, really bad behaviour. Putting them in a difficult position.

“He just said he wasn’t changing anything in the squad for the England week. I didn’t really say much. The thing I said to Ali [Price, his close friend and former flatmate] was, ‘make sure the boys know it’s not anything to do with them. I’m not turning my back on my country or the boys, this is a personal thing between me and Gregor. I want to be with them. But just now it’s not really possible for me to be involved.’”

- Inadvertently called for the Head Coach's head. Sets a really poor precedent. I'm not aware of any sportsman who has ever gone so public so quickly having left an environment. Especially having basically said that Cotter is better than Townsend in the interview

4. Pillock Number Four: Mark Palmer
- Tweeted earlier today that Russell had asked for the report not to come out until sunday
- Quoted Russell on Twitter as having said “I feel I have to set the record straight, but have done it during the fallow week so not to disrupt the team’s preparations. I do still want to play for Scotland and I hope Gregor and I can work together"
- That's not the message HE put in HIS article which instead ended with:

“I need to do what makes me happy and makes me play my best rugby. People can see the scenario as they want. But I need to do this for myself. It’s over a year I’ve been doing it for the country and for the fans. Before the last Six Nations, I was thinking the same. This is about me being honest and staying true to myself.

“People might not think it’s the right thing to do, but for me I believe it is. I believe we need change, it needs to move in a different route. We’re tracking along a road and it’s not been working for us, and it’s especially not been working for me.”

My own take on it is it would have been preferable if Townsend had not been promoted so quickly. This would not have happened under Cotter. Townsend is obviously a very good coach. However he has only ever coached under the confines of the SRU if he had been allowed to coach abroad and gain experience there the experience he gained in coaching in different environments would mirror Russell's experience of playing in them and his man management may have developed in a comparable way. That all stems from Dodson. But Dodson is much better than his predecessor and, financially, we are in a better place than we were before he arrived. That's all irrelevant not though.

In short before a ball is kicked, a drink is sipped or a squad is announced we are up against it. Our biggest rivals dwarf us in terms of resources. We cannot afford to be this profligate with talented players and as wasteful with talented coaches. Ultimately if this Six Nations does not improve, then Townsend has (all this being equal) built his own funeral pyre. But if your Townsend's replacement do you pick up the phone to the guy who might call for your head if things aren't to his liking?

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