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Wales vs England - Build Up/Match Thread - 27-2-21

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Post by TightHEAD Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:00 pm

First topic message reminder :

Wales v England

27th Feb

KO 16:46

England:

Daly;
Watson,
Slade,
Farrell,
May;
Ford,
Youngs;
M Vunipola,
George,
Sinckler,
Itoje,
Hill,
Wilson,
Curry,
B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Stuart, Ewels, Martin, Earl, Robson, Malins.

WALES

1. Wyn Jones (32 Caps)
2. Ken Owens (79 Caps)
3. Tomas Francis (54 Caps)
4. Adam Beard (23 Caps)
5. Alun Wyn Jones (CAPT) (145 Caps)
6. Josh Navidi (25 Caps)
7. Justin Tipuric (82 Caps)
8. Taulupe Faletau (83 Caps)
9. Kieran Hardy (3 Caps)
10. Dan Biggar (89 Caps)
11. Josh Adams (29 Caps)
12. Jonathan Davies (85 Caps)
13. George North (99 Caps)
14. Louis Rees-Zammit (6 Caps)
15. Liam Williams (68 Caps)

Replacements:

16. Elliot Dee (34 Caps)
17. Rhodri Jones (19 Caps)
18. Leon Brown (14 Caps)
19. Cory Hill (29 Caps)
20. James Botham (4 Caps)
21. Gareth Davies (59 Caps)
22. Callum Sheedy (6 Caps)
23. Uilisi Halaholo (1 Cap)


Last edited by TightHEAD on Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:21 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Post by owen10ozzy Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:39 pm

England self destruct and the ill discipline costs them yet again! ..

So question...whose to blame for that? Players obviously make those decisions on the pitch...but seems to be no reprecussions for those costly decisions..

The time between the World Cup Semi and now has been attrocious. The regression is frightening tbh and Jones stubborness suggests nothing will change moving forward

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Post by Scottrf Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:40 pm

The rate at which England are going backwards is worrying. Itoje can’t start next game - but there seems to be an undroppable core who get picked whatever they do on the pitch. Jones has to take the blame.

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Post by Soul Requiem Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:40 pm

So Duty knows the laws which he hasn't even read but LRZ who himself knew he'd knocked on doesn't.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:40 pm

Wales deserved the win. We complained about England's play and also the ref. But earned their loss as Wales earned their win.

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Post by Cyril Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:40 pm

Fair play to Wales, but Gauzere is going to get the mother of all bollockings from his assessors on Monday. I almost feel sorry for him.

Will he ref again?

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Post by quinsforever Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:41 pm

wales were nothing special.

ref 2 absolute shockers.

would bet large that world rugby make a comment on both those tries in the first half.

but the real problem was the absolute brain-fart penalties, particularly Hill and Genge which then meant england were chasing a 2-score lead.


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Post by Duty281 Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:41 pm

owen10ozzy wrote:England self destruct and the ill discipline costs them yet again! ..

So question...whose to blame for that? Players obviously make those decisions on the pitch...but seems to be no reprecussions for those costly decisions..

The time between the World Cup Semi and now has been attrocious. The regression is frightening tbh and Jones stubborness suggests nothing will change moving forward

Not a surprise though, alas. The slide has been quite something and shows no sign of stopping. Itoje's turned from one of the best locks in world rugby to a penalty machine.

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Post by TightHEAD Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:41 pm

Wales 26 Eng 24 - Ref 14
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Post by Geordie Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:42 pm

Well Wales win...third game dictated by ref....

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Post by Guest Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:42 pm

Take away the 2 dubious decisions.... 26-24 to Wales?

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Post by Mr Bounce Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:43 pm

Well played Wales. Poor discipline (again) from England but an absolutely dreadful game from the 2 French refereeing staff.

Yes it's England's fault they gave away silly penalties but the 2 Wales tries at the start should not have been given in my opinion.

What price a Welsh slam??!

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:43 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Ah well England battered. Ref was very poor, for both teams at times. Not sure what was up with his breakdown interpretation.

He gave you 14 points you can't complain about the ref.

England have been undisciplined. Players not good enough Vs Scotland were retained and weren't good enough again. Robson isn't international class and effectively cost us 10 points. Farrell better but still not good enough, Daly a waste of space. Forwards conceded penalties with abandon.

Wales were nothing special but played heads up and I think MOTM went to the wrong player. Navidi was the one for me.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:43 pm

Tidy performance from Wales, easily their best under WP.

England played quite well really but killed by their discipline and a few iffy referee decisions. I think we really need to be making some changes (I'm thinking George, Youngs, Farrell, Daly).

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Post by Heaf Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:43 pm

England were poor but you have to wonder what would have happened without the bizarre officiating ...

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Post by BigGee Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:44 pm

Has the EJ bubble burst now?

The team just seems to have lost it's way!

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Post by Scottrf Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:44 pm

The Oracle wrote:Take away the 2 dubious decisions.... 26-24 to Wales?
Not quite because obviously the sides play differently depending on the scoreline.

But that was a horror performance even with the blunders. Again.

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Post by TightHEAD Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:44 pm

I'm afraid that's it for me, Farrell should stand down from being Captain, Eddie Jones needs to pick on form players or he goes at the end of the tournament.

It's Poopie.

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Post by Duty281 Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:46 pm

BigGee wrote:Has the EJ bubble burst now?

The team just seems to have lost it's way!

Presumably his job's in danger. A loss to France and to Ireland may remove any credit he has left from the World Cup and anything pre-2019.

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Post by Scottrf Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:46 pm

BigGee wrote:Has the EJ bubble burst now?

The team just seems to have lost it's way!

There’s no consequence to poor form or indiscipline. Jones has his team and that’s it. Which is fine when the core are playing well. But half the team are playing championship rugby.

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Post by tigertattie Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:47 pm

Duty281 wrote:
BigGee wrote:Has the EJ bubble burst now?

The team just seems to have lost it's way!

Presumably his job's in danger. A loss to France and to Ireland may remove any credit he has left from the World Cup and anything pre-2019.

England could be looking at spoon if they lose the next games. Do not rely on Scotland to beat Italy to keep the spoon away from England
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Post by Guest Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:47 pm

Scottrf wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Take away the 2 dubious decisions.... 26-24 to Wales?
Not quite because obviously the sides play differently depending on the scoreline.

But that was a horror performance even with the blunders. Again.

I guess all I was asking was whether Wales were still good for the win regardless of the two disputed tries?

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Post by bsando Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:48 pm

Yeah very good performance by Wales in the end. They took their opportunities very well as Falteau said and have a pretty tidy squad now. Their match vs France will be a cracking battle.

England, what has happened to them? They look like like Wales did last season. Disjointed and unfamiliar with one another. Their Lions representation could be severely dented if they lose to Ireland and France now.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:48 pm

Farrell is really good with the media....

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Post by mikey_dragon Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:49 pm

Nah I don’t think Wales did much special tbh but they certainly did gain the ascendancy in the last 20. England’s discipline also got worse. The fingers will still be pointed at uncle Eddie as they have been since the ANC. Time for a fresh perspective perhaps? England were very good when they had the ball, and there’s others players who can come in and make a difference.

Commiserations England, definitely understand your frustrations with a French ref... believe me I do!

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Post by eirebilly Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:49 pm

If Jones is going to pick an attacking 10 in Ford then he needs to also pick a ball playing 12. Farrell was very accomplished in defense today but he was completely absent in attack.

Itoje gave a few penalties away but in fairness, only a couple were valid in my opinion.

Wales just seemed to adjust to the ref better than England did, that is a captaincy issue for England.
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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:51 pm

The Oracle wrote:Take away the 2 dubious decisions.... 26-24 to Wales?

I would say that would be fair reflection. Either way, Wales deserved the win.

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Post by Duty281 Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:51 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Yes, but only if it goes forward. Which this doesn't. It clearly goes backward. Any qualified referee (like the ones on the field) will tell you the same.

14th penalty conceded by England, again in combination. Can't hope to beat many nations with that sort of count. And a two score lead means it's surely all over.

It's simple really. Rewind to the point he fumbles. Now  mark the first point the ball is either caught by liz or it touches the ground or another player.is that point behind where he loses control.

He's still classed as in possession when it goes forward off his hands, and this would only end when the ball hits the ground or another player (where upon it would be a knock-on). In this instance it's hit his leg (so at this stage, no knock-on and still in possession), and you judge the potential knock-on based on where the ball goes when hitting the leg, and it goes backwards. You don't judge it from the original point where it comes out of the hands.

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Post by MonkeyMan Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:51 pm

Big up to the Welsh man of the match...Maro Itoje. That guy was a penalty machine for Wales

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Post by doctor_grey Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:53 pm

We shouldn't over-react. Eddie Jones has not coached well recently, but his job is not in jeopardy. He has earned the opportunity to right the ship. The frustration is we see the team regressing and that needs to be reversed. England were tied with 20 minutes to go and had their opportunities.

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Post by mikey_dragon Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:53 pm

Can’t bloody stand Sonja. Who ‘gave’ her the role...

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Post by king_carlos Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:53 pm

I honestly thought Farrell played well today. He played the role he did when England have been excellent with Faz at 12. He carried well when needed, acted as a second playmaker and kicked well.

The England attack functioned well other than Daly knocking the ball on under no pressure.

They lost due to rubbish discipline from most the pack. Hill and Ewels both gave away really dumb penalties under no pressure and Itoje racked up a ridiculous pen count.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:53 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Can’t bloody stand Sonja. Who ‘gave’ her the role...
I think she is cute

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Post by Duty281 Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:53 pm

eirebilly wrote:If Jones is going to pick an attacking 10 in Ford then he needs to also pick a ball playing 12. Farrell was very accomplished in defense today but he was completely absent in attack.

Itoje gave a few penalties away but in fairness, only a couple were valid in my opinion.

Wales just seemed to adjust to the ref better than England did, that is a captaincy issue for England.

Farrell's fast become the Wayne Rooney of the England rugby team. For years, the England football team picked Rooney even when he was out of form/half-fit/didn't fit the tactical shape, he was undroppable. Farrell's become the same, undroppable even though he's horrendously out-of-form and holding England back.

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Post by Heaf Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:54 pm

Duty281 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Yes, but only if it goes forward. Which this doesn't. It clearly goes backward. Any qualified referee (like the ones on the field) will tell you the same.

14th penalty conceded by England, again in combination. Can't hope to beat many nations with that sort of count. And a two score lead means it's surely all over.

It's simple really. Rewind to the point he fumbles. Now  mark the first point the ball is either caught by liz or it touches the ground or another player.is that point behind where he loses control.

He's still classed as in possession when it goes forward off his hands, and this would only end when the ball hits the ground or another player (where upon it would be a knock-on). In this instance it's hit his leg (so at this stage, no knock-on and still in possession), and you judge the potential knock-on based on where the ball goes when hitting the leg, and it goes backwards. You don't judge it from the original point where it comes out of the hands.

That's a lovely theory but nothing like the actual law ...

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Post by eirebilly Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:54 pm

Who is interviewing Farrell, she is shocking...
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Post by No9 Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:55 pm

TightHEAD wrote:Wales 26 Eng 24 - Ref 14

Still a Wales win... so will take your congratulations Tight Hug

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Post by mikey_dragon Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:57 pm

eirebilly wrote:Who is interviewing Farrell, she is shocking...

Was it Sonja or not? I could be wrong.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:58 pm

eirebilly wrote:If Jones is going to pick an attacking 10 in Ford then he needs to also pick a ball playing 12. Farrell was very accomplished in defense today but he was completely absent in attack.

If you're going to pick an attacking 10 you need to pick a centre that is going to run a line for him. Farrell and Slade are two playmaking options in midfield that offer Ford little. Lawrence had been dismissed only after playing alongside Farrell standing horribly deep. Who knows how he'll play alongside Ford. England actually made good ground through their backs when the team wasn't conceding penalties, just imagine that but with some actual midfield penetration to stop the opposition's defence just drifting across and swallowing up the wingers.

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Post by Duty281 Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:59 pm

Heaf wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Yes, but only if it goes forward. Which this doesn't. It clearly goes backward. Any qualified referee (like the ones on the field) will tell you the same.

14th penalty conceded by England, again in combination. Can't hope to beat many nations with that sort of count. And a two score lead means it's surely all over.

It's simple really. Rewind to the point he fumbles. Now  mark the first point the ball is either caught by liz or it touches the ground or another player.is that point behind where he loses control.

He's still classed as in possession when it goes forward off his hands, and this would only end when the ball hits the ground or another player (where upon it would be a knock-on). In this instance it's hit his leg (so at this stage, no knock-on and still in possession), and you judge the potential knock-on based on where the ball goes when hitting the leg, and it goes backwards. You don't judge it from the original point where it comes out of the hands.

That's a lovely theory but nothing like the actual law ...

It is the actual law, and that's how it's applied, hence the judgement made from the four international officials who all know the laws better than you or I.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:59 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Who is interviewing Farrell, she is shocking...

Was it Sonja or not? I could be wrong.

Doesn't matter he's got all the charisma of week old road kill.

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Post by owen10ozzy Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:59 pm

Eddie has always been a coach of conditioning and a detail man...much of his success in coaching has come from building a rapport and almost unbreakable bond with a group of players who believe utterly in him and what he is preaching...its hugely based on having a psycholgical edge

The problem is once that bursts its very difficult build back up again...in many ways would be easier to do it with a fresh group of players yet EJ's stubborness gets in the way of that ever happening as he almost goes out of his way to prove that he can achieve what he wants with what he has been using.

Look throughout his career and youll see a reoccuring theme of him having a large entourage of coaches and specialists...that for me says alot about his actual ability to coach.

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Post by TightHEAD Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:01 pm

No9 wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Wales 26 Eng 24 - Ref 14

Still a Wales win... so will take your congratulations Tight Hug

Different game without the Refs tries.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:02 pm

Duty281 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Yes, but only if it goes forward. Which this doesn't. It clearly goes backward. Any qualified referee (like the ones on the field) will tell you the same.

14th penalty conceded by England, again in combination. Can't hope to beat many nations with that sort of count. And a two score lead means it's surely all over.

It's simple really. Rewind to the point he fumbles. Now  mark the first point the ball is either caught by liz or it touches the ground or another player.is that point behind where he loses control.

He's still classed as in possession when it goes forward off his hands, and this would only end when the ball hits the ground or another player (where upon it would be a knock-on). In this instance it's hit his leg (so at this stage, no knock-on and still in possession), and you judge the potential knock-on based on where the ball goes when hitting the leg, and it goes backwards. You don't judge it from the original point where it comes out of the hands.

You just understand the law. Fair enough. Lol. Missed the dont there initially.

You dont understand the law. Fair enough.


Last edited by No 7&1/2 on Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:07 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by doctor_grey Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:05 pm

owen10ozzy wrote:Eddie has always been a coach of conditioning and a detail man...much of his success in coaching has come from building a rapport and almost unbreakable bond with a group of players who believe utterly in him and what he is preaching...its hugely based on having a psycholgical edge

The problem is once that bursts its very difficult build back up again...in many ways would be easier to do it with a fresh group of players yet EJ's stubborness gets in the way of that ever happening as he almost goes out of his way to prove that he can achieve what he wants with what he has been using.

Look throughout his career and youll see a reoccuring theme of him having a large entourage of coaches and specialists...that for me says alot about his actual ability to coach.
Good points. I think part of the problem is, as you say, Eddie is stubborn. He has always preached the jersey is something to fight for. But when players are not firing, for whatever reason, they keep their places. But today was not just about the players but about discipline (and yes, the referees interpretations), and also the game plan.

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Post by Heaf Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:05 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Heaf wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Yes, but only if it goes forward. Which this doesn't. It clearly goes backward. Any qualified referee (like the ones on the field) will tell you the same.

14th penalty conceded by England, again in combination. Can't hope to beat many nations with that sort of count. And a two score lead means it's surely all over.

It's simple really. Rewind to the point he fumbles. Now  mark the first point the ball is either caught by liz or it touches the ground or another player.is that point behind where he loses control.

He's still classed as in possession when it goes forward off his hands, and this would only end when the ball hits the ground or another player (where upon it would be a knock-on). In this instance it's hit his leg (so at this stage, no knock-on and still in possession), and you judge the potential knock-on based on where the ball goes when hitting the leg, and it goes backwards. You don't judge it from the original point where it comes out of the hands.

That's a lovely theory but nothing like the actual law ...

It is the actual law, and that's how it's applied, hence the judgement made from the four international officials who all know the laws better than you or I.

The ball went forwards off his hand and he didn't catch it before it hit another player - the law doesn't say except if it his his leg then it's OK ....

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Post by doctor_grey Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:06 pm

Let's not beat that dead horse whether the LRZ play was a try or not. England were tied up with about 20 minutes to go and couldn't close the deal. That is the bigger issue for me.

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Post by RiscaGame Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:08 pm

Sonja is such a bad interviewer.

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Post by Geordie Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:08 pm

Wow Farrell was raging....

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Post by RiscaGame Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:09 pm

Poor Uncle Eddie though.

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Post by Guest Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:10 pm

Terrible questioning by the interviewer. Leave them alone ffs!

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