Wales vs England - Build Up/Match Thread - 27-2-21

[TightHEAD]

First topic message reminder :

Wales v England

27th Feb

KO 16:46

England:

Daly;
Watson,
Slade,
Farrell,
May;
Ford,
Youngs;
M Vunipola,
George,
Sinckler,
Itoje,
Hill,
Wilson,
Curry,
B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Stuart, Ewels, Martin, Earl, Robson, Malins.

WALES

1. Wyn Jones (32 Caps)
2. Ken Owens (79 Caps)
3. Tomas Francis (54 Caps)
4. Adam Beard (23 Caps)
5. Alun Wyn Jones (CAPT) (145 Caps)
6. Josh Navidi (25 Caps)
7. Justin Tipuric (82 Caps)
8. Taulupe Faletau (83 Caps)
9. Kieran Hardy (3 Caps)
10. Dan Biggar (89 Caps)
11. Josh Adams (29 Caps)
12. Jonathan Davies (85 Caps)
13. George North (99 Caps)
14. Louis Rees-Zammit (6 Caps)
15. Liam Williams (68 Caps)

Replacements:

16. Elliot Dee (34 Caps)
17. Rhodri Jones (19 Caps)
18. Leon Brown (14 Caps)
19. Cory Hill (29 Caps)
20. James Botham (4 Caps)
21. Gareth Davies (59 Caps)
22. Callum Sheedy (6 Caps)
23. Uilisi Halaholo (1 Cap)

[RiscaGame]

AWJ 80 minutes. Solid. No praise on here?

[Collapse2005]

Even with those pens I just think England were good value for a win today.

England were outclassed by lets face it a very average Welsh side.

[Recwatcher16]

That was an interesting, if not slightly frustrating game.
If the ref wants to be technical, even the penalty tap for the welsh third try was taken in front of where the penalty occurred.
In some ways EJ is correct in that it doesn't pay to keep the ball in hand, if you are going to get pinged for what can only be termed soft penalties.

Wales in Paris should be another interesting game.

[No 7&1/2]

Even with those pens I just think England were good value for a win today.

England were outclassed by lets face it a very average Welsh side.

Nah.

[Scottrf]

Even with those pens I just think England were good value for a win today.

England were outclassed by lets face it a very average Welsh side.

Wales aren’t that good.

[Heaf]

Let's not beat that dead horse whether the LRZ play was a try or not.  England were tied up with about 20 minutes to go and couldn't close the deal.  That is the bigger issue for me.

Fair point - once they got level they should have done better and not kept giving away pens ... Mind you I do think some throughout the match were a bit iffy and Itoje got hard done by a couple of times

[TightHEAD]

So when England lose to France and Ireland does Eddie go?

[Duty281]

Yes, but only if it goes forward. Which this doesn't. It clearly goes backward. Any qualified referee (like the ones on the field) will tell you the same.

14th penalty conceded by England, again in combination. Can't hope to beat many nations with that sort of count. And a two score lead means it's surely all over.

It's simple really. Rewind to the point he fumbles. Now  mark the first point the ball is either caught by liz or it touches the ground or another player.is that point behind where he loses control.

He's still classed as in possession when it goes forward off his hands, and this would only end when the ball hits the ground or another player (where upon it would be a knock-on). In this instance it's hit his leg (so at this stage, no knock-on and still in possession), and you judge the potential knock-on based on where the ball goes when hitting the leg, and it goes backwards. You don't judge it from the original point where it comes out of the hands.

That's a lovely theory but nothing like the actual law ...

It is the actual law, and that's how it's applied, hence the judgement made from the four international officials who all know the laws better than you or I.

The ball went forwards off his hand and he didn't catch it before it hit another player - the law doesn't say except if it his his leg then it's OK ....

Forwards off his hand into his own body part, so no knock-on. A knock-on is when the ball is spilled forwards into another player or the ground. Not into your own leg. So it's play-on at this stage. If it goes forward off his leg, then yes it's a knock-on (provided the same player doesn't regather the ball before it hits an opponent or the ground), but it goes backwards off his leg, so no knock-on has occurred and it's play on.

I grant you this is a very rare occurrence, because a ball hitting a player's limb and going backwards (rather than forwards) is an unusual event, but it's entirely the correct decision in law.

[TightHEAD]

AWJ 80 minutes. Solid. No praise on here?

To be fair he is having a break at every breakdown and using the ball as a pillow.

[No 7&1/2]

Yes, but only if it goes forward. Which this doesn't. It clearly goes backward. Any qualified referee (like the ones on the field) will tell you the same.

14th penalty conceded by England, again in combination. Can't hope to beat many nations with that sort of count. And a two score lead means it's surely all over.

It's simple really. Rewind to the point he fumbles. Now  mark the first point the ball is either caught by liz or it touches the ground or another player.is that point behind where he loses control.

He's still classed as in possession when it goes forward off his hands, and this would only end when the ball hits the ground or another player (where upon it would be a knock-on). In this instance it's hit his leg (so at this stage, no knock-on and still in possession), and you judge the potential knock-on based on where the ball goes when hitting the leg, and it goes backwards. You don't judge it from the original point where it comes out of the hands.

That's a lovely theory but nothing like the actual law ...

It is the actual law, and that's how it's applied, hence the judgement made from the four international officials who all know the laws better than you or I.

The ball went forwards off his hand and he didn't catch it before it hit another player - the law doesn't say except if it his his leg then it's OK ....

Forwards off his hand into his own body part, so no knock-on. A knock-on is when the ball is spilled forwards into another player or the ground. Not into your own leg. So it's play-on at this stage. If it goes forward off his leg, then yes it's a knock-on (provided the same player doesn't regather the ball before it hits an opponent or the ground), but it goes backwards off his leg, so no knock-on has occurred and it's play on.

I grant you this is a very rare occurrence, because a ball hitting a player's limb and going backwards (rather than forwards) is an unusual event, but it's entirely the correct decision in law.

Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

[doctor_grey]

Guys, maybe I am alone in this, but I really believe if Farrell wants to be captain, he has to take some heat. Even if right after a heartbreaker. And even if the questions are inane.

If he is truly raging, he should look at himself first and then play better. The question should be how they let a tied game get away. And what they will do to win the next game.

[MonkeyMan]

Even with those pens I just think England were good value for a win today.

England were outclassed by lets face it a very average Welsh side.

Wales aren’t that good.

But not as bad as England

[owen10ozzy]

Quite frankly hes a spoilt brat whose been protected from criticism to the point where be truly believes he is immune from getting it...

He will walk away from that thinking he had little to do with result despite what he says..

His confidence is great and well placed when you are playing like a World class 10/12...but when you havent had a good game for over a year you just come across as a brash and arrogant little...!

[tigertattie]

7.5, can you link where you are getting that law from please? I think it’s an old version you are quoting

[Scottrf]

7.5, can you link where you are getting that law from please? I think it’s an old version you are quoting

https://resources.world.rugby/worldrugby/document/2021/02/16/31af949d-cf47-4838-a790-b5e869b0b78d/World-Rugby-Laws-2021-EN-v3.pdf

Page 19

[Duty281]

Yes, but only if it goes forward. Which this doesn't. It clearly goes backward. Any qualified referee (like the ones on the field) will tell you the same.

14th penalty conceded by England, again in combination. Can't hope to beat many nations with that sort of count. And a two score lead means it's surely all over.

It's simple really. Rewind to the point he fumbles. Now  mark the first point the ball is either caught by liz or it touches the ground or another player.is that point behind where he loses control.

He's still classed as in possession when it goes forward off his hands, and this would only end when the ball hits the ground or another player (where upon it would be a knock-on). In this instance it's hit his leg (so at this stage, no knock-on and still in possession), and you judge the potential knock-on based on where the ball goes when hitting the leg, and it goes backwards. You don't judge it from the original point where it comes out of the hands.

That's a lovely theory but nothing like the actual law ...

It is the actual law, and that's how it's applied, hence the judgement made from the four international officials who all know the laws better than you or I.

The ball went forwards off his hand and he didn't catch it before it hit another player - the law doesn't say except if it his his leg then it's OK ....

Forwards off his hand into his own body part, so no knock-on. A knock-on is when the ball is spilled forwards into another player or the ground. Not into your own leg. So it's play-on at this stage. If it goes forward off his leg, then yes it's a knock-on (provided the same player doesn't regather the ball before it hits an opponent or the ground), but it goes backwards off his leg, so no knock-on has occurred and it's play on.

I grant you this is a very rare occurrence, because a ball hitting a player's limb and going backwards (rather than forwards) is an unusual event, but it's entirely the correct decision in law.

Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

As above: If it goes forward off his leg, then yes it's a knock-on (provided the same player doesn't regather the ball before it hits an opponent or the ground), but it goes backwards off his leg, so no knock-on has occurred and it's play on.

[formerly known as Sam]

Let's not beat that dead horse whether the LRZ play was a try or not.  England were tied up with about 20 minutes to go and couldn't close the deal.  That is the bigger issue for me.

Down in the Wales half pressure on and that Robson pass is not acceptable at this level. To slow, to obvious. Flashing it past the first player that far from the ruck. He's experienced he should no better.

That was just a passage of play that typified the English performance though. Get into position and then concede possession via error or penalty without much pressure if you want to be international top 10 you should be aiming for better than that nevermind if you want to be top 1.

[Geordie]

So when England lose to France and Ireland does Eddie go?

Who comes in?

[mikey_dragon]

Hopefully not Pat Lam because I still want him for Wales.

[Scottrf]

So when England lose to France and Ireland does Eddie go?

Who comes in?

Someone who wouldn’t pick out of form championship players?

[Duty281]

Guys, maybe I am alone in this, but I really believe if Farrell wants to be captain, he has to take some heat.  Even if right after a heartbreaker.  And even if the questions are inane.  

If he is truly raging, he should look at himself first and then play better.  The question should be how they let a tied game get away.  And what they will do to win the next game.  

Don't concede 14 penalties would be a start. Takes me back to the days when Martin Johnson was head coach. In many ways it was a better England performance than against Scotland or against the French second team, particularly with ball in hand, but you can't realistically hope to defeat any of France/Ireland/Scotland/Wales/Argentina/Australia/South Africa/NZ when conceding so many penalties.

It was also awful that two tries conceded were due to England switching off completely. That isn't what you expect from a Jones-led team.

[quinsforever]

Gauzere's inept 4th official was clearly unwilling to challenge him. on anything. happened on the alleged foul play tackle by Curry.

LRZ never had possession of the ball he fumbled it immediately. Gauzere i think believed he had possession of it and then somehow dropped it and it went backwards off his leg.

that is what it comes down to. did he have possession of the ball or did he not.

TBH it is the first try that is a disgrace.

[whatahitson]

Clear try.

Useless commentary team - clueless about the laws of the game. How can they inform viewers when they themselves are ignorant? What's the point of them?

If you knock it forward and kick it, it’s a knock on.

The way I understand it is the final movement goes backwards so it's not the same as fumbling it and kicking it forward. I wasn't impressed by the poor punditry at half time suggesting the referee was clueless. You cannot complain about something being 'technically correct' at full time and just ignore you were wrong. All of them got it wrong up in the gantry.

As for Adams' try that was very marginal but referee's discretion I suppose. It should be an important lesson for Owen Farrell on how to manage the referee. He got on his bad side by arguing with him just before and so lost the grace of Gauzere. I don't think any other captain is as much of a nagger as Faz he needs to improve in that regard.

Tough breaks for England. Wales very fortunate again but also the better team today.

I thought we played well in patches and tore Wales to shreds on a few occasions like for the two tries but couldn't get speed in the ball often enough and it was the lineout again, just like against Scotland, that cost England the game. Too many penalties and too many good Welsh mauls meant England couldn't get the forward dominance required and from there it was going to be a game of who took their chances. Today it was Wales and fair play they have some top talent in their team but back to the drawing board for Eddie Jones and England. They could do with a summer tour to blood some new players.

[Geordie]

Or of course Jones knows the score...sees this 6n as irrelevant as it is and wants to test key players in tough circumstances and see how they come out....

It's still two years to the world cup....

[majesticimperialman]

i Would like to say CONGRATULATIONS Wales.                

Well deserved winner today no arguments from me on that.

I did think the LRZ knock on for Williams try should not of been allowed but even if it was not allowed Wales would still have won, and deservingly so.

I did think when it was 24 24 i thought England would sneak it at the end but indisipline let England down and gifted Sheedy 3 kicks at goal. Wales well deserved the triple crown, can they now go on and win the Grand Slam?

England let them selves down with giving away to many penalties....this is an area they need to work on.

[Shifty]

I'm always thrilled when Wales win against England.  

The refree's decision to call time off for England, and time on for Wales a few seconds later was shocking, anyone would be angry with that decision.  I won't call it the worst refereeing I've ever seen, after all England did inflict Wayne Barnes and Chris White on the world, so I would call that a typical Saturday decision for an English ref.

Italy next for us, which in theory are the weakest team in the tournament, then we'll see what state France are in at the end.

[Duty281]

TBH it is the first try that is a disgrace.

That one does look pretty bad. Gauzere does wait until Farrell's finished talking to his players, but only a few England players are out of the huddle when he suddenly allows play to restart. I think that's pretty poor.

[Maine man]

[whatahitson]

7.5, can you link where you are getting that law from please? I think it’s an old version you are quoting

https://resources.world.rugby/worldrugby/document/2021/02/16/31af949d-cf47-4838-a790-b5e869b0b78d/World-Rugby-Laws-2021-EN-v3.pdf

Page 19

That is the definition of a knock on. It is not the application of the knock on law. This is the law:

[mikey_dragon]

AWJ 80 minutes. Solid. No praise on here?

Well BamBam can't exactly come on here to give praise, when he's at home in his AWJ Shrine...

[Northgrill]

Disappointed with our performance today especially once we got to 24-24. Not particularly happy with ref today but we got quite a few dodgy calls against Italy last time out so it all evens out eventually.

First one I’m angrier with the the players for not being switched on. Only time you go into a huddle is under the posts. Or if a player is seriously injured. Referee didn’t help us but we managed to cover the other wing. We made the same mistake of switching off for Wales tap and go try. Elliot Daly turned his back. The second try was a definite knock on. No debate. What’s with French officials? Just as bad as the Henderson call in Italy Ireland match.

Our discipline is terrible. Itoje seems to have reverted to 2017/2018 form with his penalty count.

[Shifty]

I'm reading complaints regarding the Welsh second try, but I'm simply not seeing it, the Welsh player doesn't catch the ball, and it goes behind him, where it gets hit by an English leg and goes forward, to the Welsh full back who was behind the ball and scores.
That try is unlucky for England but there is nothing controversial there.

[LordDowlais]

WOW. WOW.

OK, using my level headedness, even though I am very inebriated, our first try, OMG what a joke. No try never, ever , ever.

Now that is out of the way, from then on, who can argue over the result ?

Wales played the ref better than the saxons. That is the difference.

If Itoje was had a black top instead of a white one he would be world class, I wish he was Welsh, he was a millimeter away from a world class performance.

But here we are and you cannot argue over 40 points, LRZ showed he is more than a finisher, and George North..... He was my man of the match.

It's my birthday weekend and I cannot ask for a better present, commiserations my fellow English supporters.

Good night my friends, this is a result I never, ever dreamt of.

God bless you all....

[whatahitson]

Commentary team still saying “he’s knocked it on...... maybe” and laughing.

For clarity the LRZ “knock on” wasn’t a knock on as it didn’t go forward to another player or onto the ground.

Surprisingly the refs in charge know the laws of the game

Correct. It went backwards off his leg. No knock-on and a fair try.

All four qualified officials thought it was a try, not one thought it was a knock-on. Strange, eh?

I think you must just be wumming now as the laws clearly say it was a knock-on - there's nothing about it being OK if it hits a leg.  If that was allowed all those players that fumble the ball then kick it would be OK ...

Ah yes, it’s a WUM when someone doesn’t agree with you. Always the go to argument

Had LRZ kicked it forward it would have been a knock on (knocked forward and hits the ground)

He didn’t kick it forward. It went backwards. Therefore it’s not a knock on.

For the sake of balance the first Welsh try shouldn’t have been given. There. Now everyone is happy.

It’s gone off his hands forward. At that point the only thing that can save a knockdown is the same player catching it. Not knocking it back past the original knock on. Not kicking it.

Last attempt assuming you are genuinely mistaken.

There's a lot of tension around this but as you can see the law isn't exactly black and white.

As far as I understand it, this decision is no different to a player going up for a high ball, the ball bounces off their arms, they run to try to get the ball and manage to slap it back without catching it and the ball bounces in front of where they initially made contact with it.

Or like someone fumbling a pass a few times while running forward and then slapping the ball backwards or 'offloaing' to a team mate without catching it.

We see both of those happen nearly every single game but no one complains. The final direction of the ball was backwards so everything else is irrelevant.

The only problem is it came off his leg so I think we might see world rugby have to tighten up the law or probably just introduce a new directive so everyone is crystal clear on how the knock on law is officiated for the future.

The law is not black and white in any of the above situations so anyone arguing they are ABSOLUTELY correct and anyone else is DEFINITELY wrong is mistaken.

I'll take a leaf out of Brian Moore's book here and take the medicine: the referee said it was a try so it is a try.

Anyway that was a very good game of rugby it is a travesty there weren't fans in attendance to watch it. Well done to Wales.

[TightHEAD]

At least there is one thing for English fans to celebrate tonight, that Pascal Gauzere last international game in charge.

[MonkeyMan]

Be good now if Wales can go on to win the Grand Slam and then the Lions tour gets cancelled and maybe the World Champions South Africa can come over here into the Dragons den and we have the real NH v SH match up

[LordDowlais]

AWJ 80 minutes. Solid. No praise on here?

35yrs young.

Pwyll, Prince of Dyfed.
Branwen ferch Llŷr.
Manawydan fab Llŷr.
Math fab Mathonwy.
The Dream of Macsen Wledig.
Lludd and Llefelys.
Hanes Taliesin.
Culhwch and Olwen.


AND AWJ...

[Shifty]

An interesting thing to note, it's hard for England to be unlucky if you never actually have the lead in a game.

[Geordie]

At least there is one thing for English fans to celebrate tonight, that Pascal Gauzere last international game in charge.

Dude, it's an irrelevant season, 6n , club season,  whatever......

I genuinely think Jones doesnt give a sh1t and will,l ramp it up next year...its 2 years to the world cup...massive changes till then...

South Africa haven't even played yet...since the world cup


Thank you GF, but please keep it gracious

[whatahitson]

Even with those pens I just think England were good value for a win today.

England were outclassed by lets face it a very average Welsh side.

Even the best teams suffer this once in a while when they're not at their best. Just look at an Ireland team full of 30-somethings beating NZ in 2018. Or England managing to catch out NZ in 2012 which was their 'great' era. Wales have talented players but a fit and firing English team should do better particularly up front and learn to manage the game better by not allowing Wales to play to their strengths.

I know people don't like the kicking but I thought England should have kicked a lot more particularly when Biggar went off they didn't have a reliable kicker in their team Sheedy and Liam Williams are not as good as Slade, Farrell, Ford, and Daly. The problem was the lineout defence was useless, it was weak and ill disciplined. Lawes and Kruis are big losses for this England team.

Jones will turn it around it's not as if he will ignore the problems or care less about England winning than the fans.

[BigGee]

It's been a good thread so far guys, lets keep it civil

[No9]

Have to say, after team announcement I was concerned we only had one kicker and Sheedy wasnt up to it...

I was proved wrong...

He'll start against Italy, and may also now wear the 10 against France..


I'm also prepared to eat humble pie and say I was wrong about Pivac... but keep that pie on the back burner just for a little while yet.. He's starting to turn things round...

[Guest]

Just one point.. For all those who sniggered and posted last year, about Wales going from Grand Slam 2019 to 5th in 2020... Looks like England are on track to do the same (without the Slam in 2020 of course). As cant see them beating France or Ireland....

What goes round, comes round...

Let’s try to be gracious No 9

[Shifty]

I think Wales might start to feel confident now, Italy next and you have to wonder about France.
With so many players out with Covid you'd assume it will take a while for them to be back playing top level rugby, it's unlikely to be a case of 2 weeks off and there back to 100% for top level international rugby.

[Cyril]

To be honest, both sides aren’t great though.

I dread to think what the SH are going to do to us once they get back playing. That gap could be back to 2005.

NH is very stodgy.

[Cyril]

I do feel a bit sorry for Wales though. This tournament already had an asterisk against it before Gauzere got involved.

[Yoda]

At least there is one thing for English fans to celebrate tonight, that Pascal Gauzere last international game in charge.

Dude, it's an irrelevant season, 6n , club season,  whatever......

I genuinely think Jones doesnt give a sh1t and will,l ramp it up next year...its 2 years to the world cup...massive changes till then...

South Africa haven't even played yet...since the world cup


Thank you GF, but please keep it gracious

I do think he genuinely has cared this season but has stuck instead of twisting. He could have freshened things up and brought new blood in but at the expense of players who have delivered for him last season albeit in shaky fashion.

Now he has a headache because quite clearly the saracens players and veterens are way off and that strips him of hundreds of caps of experience yet are holding the team back. He's lost that element of surprise to his selections now which kept players on their toes in the past. He's brought in some meh players who are not ripping up trees so it appears that his lustre is waning some what. The next year will be interesting for rugby in general but doubly so for England.

[LordDowlais]

To be honest, both sides aren’t great though.

I dread to think what the SH are going to do to us once they get back playing. That gap could be back to 2005.

NH is very stodgy.

Ah, OK... England = crap

The rest of us = crap

come on.

The English players are not crap by the way. I honestly don't think there is much between us all these days,

[majesticimperialman]

With regards to Sheedy he as given Pivac a real headache, does he keep picking Half penny and Biggar to take the kicks at goal, or does he retire both of them and stick with Sheedy?

I would personaly stick with Sheedy.

[quinsforever]

thought Sheedy was 5x better than Biggar. and 50x less annoying

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