Wales vs England - Build Up/Match Thread - 27-2-21

[TightHEAD]

First topic message reminder :

Wales v England

27th Feb

KO 16:46

England:

Daly;
Watson,
Slade,
Farrell,
May;
Ford,
Youngs;
M Vunipola,
George,
Sinckler,
Itoje,
Hill,
Wilson,
Curry,
B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Stuart, Ewels, Martin, Earl, Robson, Malins.

WALES

1. Wyn Jones (32 Caps)
2. Ken Owens (79 Caps)
3. Tomas Francis (54 Caps)
4. Adam Beard (23 Caps)
5. Alun Wyn Jones (CAPT) (145 Caps)
6. Josh Navidi (25 Caps)
7. Justin Tipuric (82 Caps)
8. Taulupe Faletau (83 Caps)
9. Kieran Hardy (3 Caps)
10. Dan Biggar (89 Caps)
11. Josh Adams (29 Caps)
12. Jonathan Davies (85 Caps)
13. George North (99 Caps)
14. Louis Rees-Zammit (6 Caps)
15. Liam Williams (68 Caps)

Replacements:

16. Elliot Dee (34 Caps)
17. Rhodri Jones (19 Caps)
18. Leon Brown (14 Caps)
19. Cory Hill (29 Caps)
20. James Botham (4 Caps)
21. Gareth Davies (59 Caps)
22. Callum Sheedy (6 Caps)
23. Uilisi Halaholo (1 Cap)

[doctor_grey]

With regards to Sheedy he as given Pivac a real headache, does he keep picking Half penny and Biggar to take the kicks at goal, or does he retire both of them and stick with Sheedy?

I would personaly stick with Sheedy.  

So...if I understand what you are saying, a coach needs to know when it is time to respectfully sit or retire players who have played well for your club or country but are now falling off a bit and bring in new blood?   And know when a group of players have gone as far as they can and something different is needed?  And that is easier to attain greatness than to maintain it?  And the very best leaders are able to navigate those most difficult scenarios?

[Poorfour]

So, the relevant section of the Laws is not Law 11, which (incongruously) deals mainly with situations that aren’t knock ons, but the definition of Knock-on in the Definitions section:

Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

Note that the definition doesn’t say anything about what else the ball hits on the way down, only that it is a knock-on if it goes forward off the hand or arm and then touches the ground before it can be caught.

We routinely see players drop the ball and try to recover by kicking it, and it is always called as a knock-on when the ref spots it.

If you watch the replay on the BBC - which the TMO did not show to Gauzere - the incident happens literally on the 5m hash mark that crosses the 22. LRZ’s hand hits the ball about half way along the hash mark. The ball hits the ground about half a metre ahead of the hash mark.

It’s a knock on any way you look at it, and the only defence for Gauzere is that he was not shown the clearest angle. Totally appalling.

The first try was a slightly different affair. It is, by definition, a legitimate try because Gauzere signalled time on and told Wales they could play. On the other hand, it’s a terrible piece of refereeing, because he had told Farrell to go and talk to his team, he was clearly still carrying out that instruction (the players are visibly in a huddle), and he had not made it clear to England that time was back on.

We’ve seen refs prevent a quick tap countless times because he wants to talk to the offending team. I have never seen a ref then allow the quick tap.

I’d also say that it’s unsporting in the extreme for Wales to take the quick penalty under those circumstances. It’s one thing to catch a team napping when play is still “live”. It’s quite another to ask to take a quick tap when you know that the ref has turned time off and both sides are in a water break. The fact that water breaks are much more structured under COVID rules only makes it worse.

Asking to be allowed the tap is bad, but granting it without ensuring the other team know play has restarted is just horrendously bad game management, even if it’s technically correct. It gives one side an advantage that the other has no option to counter.

The rest of the game is coloured by those two decisions and the score line is almost irrelevant, because it could have been a very different match without that start. England played some of the best rugby they have in a while to pull back to level, but it clearly took a lot out of them to overcome that deficit and Wales did what they are very good at and exploited the ragged edge.

Wales will also take some encouragement from how well their replacements in particular performed, though the reliance on England’s indiscipline and the ease with which England made inroads in their own defence should be cause for concern.

For England, there was a fair amount to like. Fundamentally, the big things wrong with their game were the penalty count, Daly’s positioning and Farrell’s kicking. Itoje seems to have lost the plot this 6N, and the replacements were the prime culprits of the late implosion. Genge in particular does not look ready for international rugby at the moment.

England have clearly got a reputation with refs now and they are not getting the 50/50 decisions. Itoje’s penalty for being a boot length offside came seconds after a ruck when a Welsh player had stepped backwards into it from a position not just in front of the offside line but in front of the ball. They need to find a way to reset the relationship or they will continue to lose games they should be capable of winning.

[majesticimperialman]

Regards Halfpenny, he as been a great full  back and a first  class goal kicker
especially for Wales. But i do think/believe ;iam Williams is a better full back.
But i do believe mostly he as gained his place mainly for his kicks at goal.

Re Biggar he as been a solid player good at kicking goals. chasing his kicks but  I don't know he seems off pace at the moment.

Sheedy on the other hand seems full of confidence did not miss a kick at goal today, and basicly won Wales the game when he came on.

So for me Sheedy starts every game from now on.

[LordDowlais]

just for the boys :-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56225219

[Scottrf]

Further confirmation for those who need it from Nigel Owens.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/its-100-per-cent-knock-19932005.amp

[Geordie]

Anyway...I wish Wales all the best for the 6n and grand slam...

[Geordie]

Anyway...I wish Wales all the best for the 6n and grand slam...

what the feck am I saying......

[LordDowlais]

I will savour this for the next six months.

[whatahitson]

We routinely see players drop the ball and try to recover by kicking it, and it is always called as a knock-on when the ref spots it.

That's because the ball is always travelling forwards in that situation. In this case, the final movement of the ball was backwards. I could have sworn the law used to be if you fumble it you have to either catch it or knock it backwards behind the point where you first knocked it on but the number of times I see this exact situation happen without a knock on being given I can only conclude I must be wrong and the way the knock on is officiated has changed from when I played the game.

We also routinely see players challenge for a ball in the air, slap it forwards, run forwards, and slap it back. The ball is never gathered, it's never caught, it's never recovered cleanly, it's never fully under 'control' and yet it isn't judged as a knock on.

Would it be a knock on if the full back fumbled a high ball forwards and in to the air, then volleyed the ball backwards to his winger instead of catching it?

This is the issue, there's clearly a grey area, and both the definition and the 'simplified' law 11 leaves it open to interpretation.

I expect World Rugby will be issuing a clarification early next week. Until then we'll just have to hold fire and if Gauzere got it wrong then fair play we can feel very hard done by.

[RiscaGame]

I’ve never seen a captain actually pull a team in to tell them no more penalties. If he did, then his chat didn’t do much good, if they kept on giving away penalties. Imagine one player giving five penalties away on his own, despite the chat and no yellow.

Is water allowed on for a penalty? I don’t think it is. Prove me wrong please. I’ve seen loads of refs say water bottles aren’t allowed on during a penalty, as it’s not a break in play.

[doctor_grey]

Maybe the England players have tuned Farrell out by now.  Or, rather, they see him as somewhat of a loose cannon and don't really listen.

[majesticimperialman]

Would i be right in thinking this was the first game in the 6nations that no cards was issued, red or yellow. And Wales played a full 80minutes against 15 men. Well done for that.

[quinsforever]

I’ve never seen a captain actually pull a team in to tell them no more penalties. If he did, then his chat didn’t do much good, if they kept on giving away penalties. Imagine one player giving five penalties away on his own, despite the chat and no yellow.

Is water allowed on for a penalty? I don’t think it is. Prove me wrong please. I’ve seen loads of refs say water bottles aren’t allowed on during a penalty, as it’s not a break in play.

pretty pointless post.

fact is farrell DID call his team in, after asking permission from Gauzere, and they did come in. Saying his chat did no good is irrelevant as to whether England were disadvantaged by Gauzere blowing for time on before England were back in position.

water was on for both teams so what's your point? clearly both teams thought Biggar was going to kick. doesnt mean he has to as it was never signalled, but thats obviously why water was on.

Gauzere will get reprimanded for his performance today. No doubt. Wouldnt be surprised if there is a World Rugby "statement" by Monday.

Not an excuse for England as they got back to 24-24 then Hill and Genge gave dumbest pens ever away, and consequently the game.

[whatahitson]

Also I don't think Biggar took his penalty 'quick'. That implies that the team takes the penalty before the opposition has had a chance to retreat 10m and the attacking play continues. The time was off so England could talk unlike that game in Dublin against South Africa. Once time is on again the ball is live so you have to anticipate these things anything can happen.

I do think it's bad sportsmanship all round, including Wales and the referee as he should have let Farrell and England know he was about to put the clock back on, but I'll again reiterate that Farrell made a rod for his own back by arguing with the referee beforehand. He needs to learn from his mistake and understand that French referees can be emotional and stubborn. Don't get on their bad side by pointlessly arguing with them.

Jones' comments in the week about AWJ winding players up and playing the referee clearly didn't get in to Gauzere's head. Time to move on anyway England are now out of the running so time to really look to the future. I would like to see Sam Simmonds brought in but on the basis of how bad the lineout has been this season we need second row specialists Itoje is just a penalty machine and Ewels is not up to the job.

As for the water the stoppages in rugby are killing it. If England were using that as a tactic to slow down Wales, or vice versa, you cannot complain if it backfires. Again it's bad sportsmanship Wales looked set up and ready to go for 20 seconds before time was put back on. Live and learn.

[Soul Requiem]

I see Miaows pro England facade has slipped already.

[Shifty]

I've gone over this again...

For the first Welsh try - the referee said "have a word", he didn't say pull the entire team in and have a committee meeting! Wales are on the attack and want to play, not have the momentum taken out of the game.

Second try, the ball is simply not caught by the welsh player, goes backwards, and bounces off the England 13's knee, The Welsh Full back is behind the ball at the point of the "kick backwards", the Welsh full back scores.

England's first try - I just noticed the hookers pass to Anthony Watson for his try was miles forward, slow it down and look at the lines on the pitch, the hooker is on a different pitch pallet when he passes the ball and Watson is miles in front when he catches it. Wales were screwed there.

Wales did win 40-24, scored 4 tries to 2, and England were never leading at any point in the game. England were not unlucky in any way or robbed, but perhaps didn't deserve to lose by such a big score on balance.

[doctor_grey]

Further confirmation for those who need it from Nigel Owens.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/its-100-per-cent-knock-19932005.amp

Still 24-24 and one team succeeded, one team failed.

[TightHEAD]

With regards to Sheedy he as given Pivac a real headache, does he keep picking Half penny and Biggar to take the kicks at goal, or does he retire both of them and stick with Sheedy?

I would personaly stick with Sheedy.  

WHAT!!!

An in form premiership player looks comfortable and at home at international level. Quick someone tell Eddie!

[bsando]

Further confirmation for those who need it from Nigel Owens.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/its-100-per-cent-knock-19932005.amp

Owens makes good logical points. However, that is his interpretation. Time was off for Farrell to speak to his team. It wasn’t permission to have a huddle and discussion. He was too slow to relay the message in the eyes Guazere. Owens thought it was harsh but if you watch it back, the ref watches England to see if they’ve had time to chat after Biggar asks when time can go back on. He doesn’t have to run over and tell England time will be back on soon, he just has to say it and make the appropriate signal.

Owens point on second try I agree with. The TMO messed that one up so still not Gauzere. However, I thought Gauzere should have overruled the TMO rather than relying on him to make the call. It seemed pretty obvious from the replay the ball didn’t go backwards despite the TMO stating it had. Just as Owens points out.

[doctor_grey]

With regards to Sheedy he as given Pivac a real headache, does he keep picking Half penny and Biggar to take the kicks at goal, or does he retire both of them and stick with Sheedy?

I would personaly stick with Sheedy.  

WHAT!!!

An in form premiership player looks comfortable and at home at international level. Quick someone tell Eddie!

Nah, Eddie will look at the Simmonds boys, Dombrandt, and so on and............they will suit up for Wales.

[Northgrill]

Anyone spot Sinckler giving Wyn Jones some verbals on the ground after the Youngs try? A penny to hear that conversation:D

[Heaf]

So Nigel is saying exactly what most of us have been trying to explain all the time to those that refuse to read the laws - if the ball goes forwards off the hand the same player must regather it - all the nonsense about it not counting as it bounced backwards off his leg was just that - nonsense.

[RiscaGame]

So Nigel is saying exactly what most of us have been trying to explain all the time to those that refuse to read the laws - if the ball goes forwards off the hand the same player must regather it - all the nonsense about it not counting as it bounced backwards off his leg was just that - nonsense.

Where did he?

Did he mention that Itoje getting pinged 5 times deserved a yellow? Seeing as he’s your mate.

[doctor_grey]

Still not sure why we are still beating to death the referee calls in the 1st half.  The match was tied later on and England did not turn up the effort or the brains.  Wales did.  The only question I want to know is what happened from that point onwards.

[Heaf]

True doc but England's deficiencies don't excuse shocking officiating - they shouldn't get a free pass due to England's failures ... and of course had the tries not been given who knows what would have happened - could easily have still lost but the point is these sorts of errors shouldn't be happening at this level.

Oh and the TMO that said the first Irish try hadn't been grounded was wrong too - luckily Ireland scored just after so didn't really have an impact - but it shows what a poor state things are in when these glaring errors seem to be getting more commonplace ...

[Northgrill]

So Nigel is saying exactly what most of us have been trying to explain all the time to those that refuse to read the laws - if the ball goes forwards off the hand the same player must regather it - all the nonsense about it not counting as it bounced backwards off his leg was just that - nonsense.

He also said Mays finish against Italy was illegal. I don’t remember many of us agreeing with him on that one. Doesn’t seem to rate the current state of refereeing however.

[Heaf]

So Nigel is saying exactly what most of us have been trying to explain all the time to those that refuse to read the laws - if the ball goes forwards off the hand the same player must regather it - all the nonsense about it not counting as it bounced backwards off his leg was just that - nonsense.

Where did he?

Did he mention that Itoje getting pinged 5 times deserved a yellow? Seeing as he’s your mate.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/its-100-per-cent-knock-19932005.amp

and I'm discussing a point of law and the poor officiating - not saying England weren't poor too ...

[Heaf]

So Nigel is saying exactly what most of us have been trying to explain all the time to those that refuse to read the laws - if the ball goes forwards off the hand the same player must regather it - all the nonsense about it not counting as it bounced backwards off his leg was just that - nonsense.

He also said Mays finish against Italy was illegal. I don’t remember many of us agreeing with him on that one. Doesn’t seem to rate the current state of refereeing however.

Very true - there is a slight difference though - the May incident doesn't seem to have a specific law covering it so is more of a grey area, whereas the knock-on has a very clear definition ...

[king_carlos]

I’ve never seen a captain actually pull a team in to tell them no more penalties. If he did, then his chat didn’t do much good, if they kept on giving away penalties. Imagine one player giving five penalties away on his own, despite the chat and no yellow.

Is water allowed on for a penalty? I don’t think it is. Prove me wrong please. I’ve seen loads of refs say water bottles aren’t allowed on during a penalty, as it’s not a break in play.

The ref stopped the clock so it's definitely a stoppage of play, basically the definition of it. Worth noting there were 3 water carriers on for each side when Biggar kicked it.

We see captains routinely pull the team in when the ref asks them 'to have a word' as well.

No questioning that England's indiscipline was shocking though. From 24-24 with England well they gave away 4 penalties that directly resulted in scoring opportunities. Sheedy was excellent in that final quarter to take advantage of them.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/its-100-per-cent-knock-19932005

Nige offering his view on both tries there.

[Guest]

The water carriers are not actually allowed on the pitch during a penalty. Only during an injury or a try being scored. See link, section at the bottom of the page:

https://officiating.worldrugby.org/?module=2&section=25&subsection=99&page=2162&language=en

So I guess the question is whether the ref in this instance is meant to stop the game and clear the water carriers before the game can continue (and in doing so the opposition water carriers have ‘won’ in their bid to control the tempo of the game and slow things down) or whether he’s able to ignore their presence and restart the game as they shouldn’t be there and be allowed to slow down play?

[No 7&1/2]

It was Welsh water carriers as well. Personally thought 1 of them would have been carrying the tee and hence why they were on. Odd situation. I'd normally say the ref was getting carried away with the home crowd!

[formerly known as Sam]

I’ve never seen a captain actually pull a team in to tell them no more penalties. If he did, then his chat didn’t do much good, if they kept on giving away penalties. Imagine one player giving five penalties away on his own, despite the chat and no yellow.

Is water allowed on for a penalty? I don’t think it is. Prove me wrong please. I’ve seen loads of refs say water bottles aren’t allowed on during a penalty, as it’s not a break in play.

The ref stopped the clock so it's definitely a stoppage of play, basically the definition of it. Worth noting there were 3 water carriers on for each side when Biggar kicked it.

We see captains routinely pull the team in when the ref asks them 'to have a word' as well.

No questioning that England's indiscipline was shocking though. From 24-24 with England well they gave away 4 penalties that directly resulted in scoring opportunities. Sheedy was excellent in that final quarter to take advantage of them.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/its-100-per-cent-knock-19932005

Nige offering his view on both tries there.

Agree. The ref should have asked the water carriers to leave the field before resuming the clock. It's dangerous to have potentially unsuspecting non-playing staff in a live play area when they think time is off. Ref doesn't break any laws but it is awful officiating.

Fair play to Biggar for trying it, it's a bit sneaky and AWJ would have lost it completely if the shoe had been on the other foot but the level of officiating is not intentional standard.

You know the ref's decisions aren't great when Jonathan Davies one of if not the most one eyed pundit in the game suggests the ref as a potential man of the match for Wales. He also picks the wrong backrow for man of the match, should have been Navidi but I digress.

As an England fan you'd hope that this would be a wake-up call for Eddie about playing Sarries players who clearly aren't match for but I doubt he'll get the message.

[Guest]

Yes, not disputing it was the Welsh too. Just trying to understand the ref’s options at the time - clear them and take any quick tap option away from the attacking team and take the tempo out of the game or ignore them and say ‘it’s your own fault for having water carriers on he pitch’ (and that goes for whether something bad had happened to Wales instead when they had carriers on).

[R!skysports]

It is the fact that he stopped time and told Farrell to talk to his players. At that point tempo had been taken out. It is not the same as clever play to tap and go on a penalty (like the good play for the other try)

I thought it was completely against good sportsmanship from Bigger really was boardline cheating

Really shocked at how this played out and the ref lost all control.

[TJ]

https://twitter.com/i/status/1365719444861964295

If you look at this video. the huddle has broken up. On the RHS the defense is set. On the LHS where the try was score the players are wondering into position backs to the ref. so there was time to set the defense as one side of the pitch was set.

also we all know Biggar is a sneaky Poopie. somone should have been watching. After the huddle has broken up england players are walking slowly with their backs to the ref.

[MonkeyMan]

Crikey...are we still going on about the referee?

Wales won. When we go to Paris in an attempt to win the Grand Slam I fully expect our English neighbours to be supporting us all the way

[Guest]

Are people really saying it’s poor sportsmanship for player to start playing after the ref says time on and blows his whistle? Seriously?! Is Biggar meant to shout to Farrell and say ‘Owen, we’re starting now, the ref has blown his whistle, and I’m going to take a quick tap and go. Brace yourself’. Was it poor sportsmanship for Hardy to take a tap and go and score a try from that in the 2nd half too? After all, Daly had his back turned and the defence was not set.

Nonsense. Poor sportsmanship might have been doing it before time was on. But not afterwards.

[MonkeyMan]

‘Owen, we’re starting now, the ref has blown his whistle, and I’m going to take a quick tap and go. Brace yourself’.

That's quite funny actually

But true. You have to play the ref

And yes...Wales did have an extra man and England one man less. That man was Maro Itoje

Can't see him wearing a Lions test shirt again under Gatland

[eirebilly]

‘Owen, we’re starting now, the ref has blown his whistle, and I’m going to take a quick tap and go. Brace yourself’.

That's quite funny actually

But true. You have to play the ref

And yes...Wales did have an extra man and England one man less. That man was Maro Itoje

Can't see him wearing a Lions test shirt again under Gatland

Very harsh on Itoje, thought he was pretty good myself and 3 of the penalties he conceded were borderline at best...

[No 7&1/2]

Gatland is a poor selector. It's possible.

[LordDowlais]

Matt Dawson is laying the boot in:-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56226838

[No 7&1/2]

Bit harsh from dawson. What could the players realistically do for some of those pens? The maddening ones like jumping across the line in the lineout and hill fair enough.

[RiscaGame]

As much as I’d love to agree with Nigel Showtime, this is a guy who admitted he has never read the Laws of Rugby.

[No 7&1/2]

Just agree as hes right this time.

[RiscaGame]

Elliot Dee played well, off the bench yesterday. Mad to think he was fourth choice hooker in the Autumn.

[LordDowlais]

For all the talk about the ref yesterday, one thing actually stood out for me, and that was the general behaviour of the English players, all the back slapping when a decision went their way, the goading ect...

We all know it goes on, but the English were just more in your face about it yesterday, perhaps this is why the officials take a very blunt view when it comes to England. What cannot speak, cannot lie, and with over 40 penalties against so far, and that is not including free kicks, speaks for itself.

[Soul Requiem]

The quick tap was only possible because the ref told Farrell to talk to his players, if that doesn't happen Wales take the three points.

[No 7&1/2]

So you're saying the ref was deliberately biased hence his decisions LD?

[LordDowlais]

So you're saying the ref was deliberately biased hence his decisions LD?

No, why would you ask that ? I have not alluded to it. I am speaking about the penalty count over the first three games, and the behaviour of the English players.

Are you manufacturing an argument again ?

[Shifty]

This is one of the most crazy forward passes I've ever seen.

Look at The English hookers position as he passes, and look at the grass pallet lines.  
Note the position of the linesman, perfectly in line.

The second picture, shows where Watson catches the ball.  
That's almost two human body lengths forward, and you've got some English complaining about being treated unfairly...  

The first Welsh try people can talk about, whats correct and what's not, but that's conclusively a forward pass for England's first try and an unfair try against Wales, unless england are playing American Football of course.

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