Lions Watch: Six Nations Report

First topic message reminder :

Well we're nearly done with the Six Nations so if the Lions goes ahead who do you like the look of and who do you think will be touring?

BamBam wrote:Wyn Jones - there are better players from other nations
Ken Owens - there are better players from other nations
Tomas Francis - there are better players from other nations
Alun Wyn Jones - there are better players from the local park
Cory Hill - there are better players from the other nations
Josh Navidi - see above
Justin Tipuric - see above
Taulupe Faletau - see above
Repeat for all Welsh backs

I have nothing to back this up but it’s just my opinions. So there you go

you made the point briliantly! top marks

alive555 wrote:

BamBam wrote:Wyn Jones - there are better players from other nations
Ken Owens - there are better players from other nations
Tomas Francis - there are better players from other nations
Alun Wyn Jones - there are better players from the local park
Cory Hill - there are better players from the other nations
Josh Navidi - see above
Justin Tipuric - see above
Taulupe Faletau - see above
Repeat for all Welsh backs

I have nothing to back this up but it’s just my opinions. So there you go

you made the point briliantly! top marks

Yup. Superbly proved the futility of these discussions

LordDowlais wrote:

BamBam wrote:Wyn Jones - there are better players from other nations
Ken Owens - there are better players from other nations
Tomas Francis - there are better players from other nations
Alun Wyn Jones - there are better players from the local park
Cory Hill - there are better players from the other nations
Josh Navidi - see above
Justin Tipuric - see above
Taulupe Faletau - see above
Repeat for all Welsh backs

I have nothing to back this up but it’s just my opinions. So there you go

Just Welsh ones.

At least we can now see you agenda. How the MODS put up with your behaviour on here I do not know.

The mods don't step in because having a different opinion is not against the rules.

Some interesting miscellaneous and surprising defence stats on the 6n website.

Missed Tackles

Curry - 11 (4th worst player in 6n)
H Watson - 0
Tipuric - 2
Beirne - 2


Rees Zammit - 9
DVM - 3
A Watson -7
Adams - 6
May - 5

North - 3
Harris 4
Rinrose - 6
Henshaw - 7

Hogg -2
Keenan 4
L Williams - 4

By those stats you'd pick Watson over curry. Which would be bonkers.

No 7&1/2 wrote:By those stats you'd pick Watson over curry. Which would be bonkers.

You’re not allowed to say that, 7.5. You need to say ‘both players have their merits’.

Underhill and Curry regularly top these missed tackle stats as they are often the first to arrive on a kick/chase at pace. If they nail it, it usually ends up as pen for England....if they miss, no great loss.

Watson is quite something with the breaks he makes ball in hand, but that is an area where Curry has been improving a great deal.

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:By those stats you'd pick Watson over curry. Which would be bonkers.

You’re not allowed to say that, 7.5. You need to say ‘both players have their merits’.

To be fair the actual response should be you really can't use stats without context and without watching the games too or it can be completely misleading.

alive555 wrote:Some interesting miscellaneous and surprising defence stats on the 6n website.

Missed Tackles

Curry - 11 (4th worst player in 6n)
H Watson - 0
Tipuric - 2
Beirne - 2


Rees Zammit - 9
DVM - 3
A Watson -7
Adams - 6
May - 5

North - 3
Harris 4
Rinrose - 6
Henshaw - 7

Hogg -2
Keenan 4
L Williams - 4

With these things as well, we really do need to see how many tackles they made, or attempted so we could have a percentage. For instance, Curry might have missed 11 of 100 tackles, and Tupiric missed the only two tackles he went for.

Hamish Watson v Tom Curry stats for this 6N

Mins Played 386 - 400
Turnovers conceded 3 – 6
Tries 1 - 0
Turnover won in the tackle 1 – 0
Turnovers won 4 - 1
Dominant Tackles 5 - 7
Missed tackles 0 - 11
Tackles made 55 - 63
Broken tackles 14 – 8
Offloads 2 - 2
Passes Made 16 - 12
Carries 67 - 41
Meters made 321 - 217

Tom Curry is a wonderful player, but Hamish Watson deserves his starting place this year - he has been an absolute warrior and would thrive playing in a bigger pack.

Beirne, Curry, Underhill, Watson - any combination of those at flanker would work for me

Curry starts though over anyone else.

I agree but not many others will

Give him a game and I reckon he'll win most over

LordDowlais wrote:

R!skysports wrote:Zander and Sutherland in the conversation (Zander I think should tour and Sutherland 50/50)

Nowhere near 50/50. There are better props from all the other nations.

R!skysports wrote:Turner played very well  - so worth talking about him?

George Turner is not as good as hookers from other nations.

R!skysports wrote:2nd row. Gray until injured was one of the standout second rows and has been very good at one of the best clubs sides in Europe....... Hmmmmmmm. Skinner played well so maybe a consideration, but an outside bet (versatile)

Sorry, second rows would be Itoje and AWJ. But you could put the Irish ones in there.

R!skysports wrote:Back Row - Hamish up with player of the 6 nations.....so a maybe there. Richie also in great form - worth talking about- again a maybe

Ah I see where you are going wrong here. You keep putting 2 names up and saying that is it

I agree, Hamish Watson is a test starter. Richie has better players from other nations infront of him.

R!skysports wrote:Price - as good and as bad as the rest..... who knows?

If he goes, God help.

R!skysports wrote:Russel - everyone said he had a poor 6nations - not sure I agree, made similar number of mistakes as others (But they are ignored) and seemed to direct traffic better than others

I wouldn't be disappointed if he went, but faces stiff competition.

R!skysports wrote:Huw Jones - An outside bet and one of the most dangerous centres this 6 nations

There are better players from other nations. Sorry.

R!skysports wrote:van der Merwe - top stats in 6 nations and lethal going forward - certainly worth considering

Falls into the Finn Russell category for me, I would not be disappointed to see him on tour, but he faces stiff competition.

R!skysports wrote:Hogg - 100% to go

Agree, and test starter.


So there you go. Just my opinions.

Ah, I see where we are going wrong. You put out 2 players up for the test and then after that no other players are in consideration

The rest are talking about the squad, which there are several Scottish players in contention - but you seem to feel a team you beat when they were done to 14 mean, by a point, is worthy on 1 or 2 in the squad

Rugby Fan wrote:

bsando wrote:...the Lions needs a clear selection policy separate of the Head Coach and his assistants....

It was precisely the lack of control over selection that McGeechan felt had hamstrung the Lions. After the squad friction in 1993, he insisted on final say over his 1997 selection, and it has stayed that way for every tour since.

Seems like there is a middle ground somewhere

bsando wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

bsando wrote:...the Lions needs a clear selection policy separate of the Head Coach and his assistants....

It was precisely the lack of control over selection that McGeechan felt had hamstrung the Lions. After the squad friction in 1993, he insisted on final say over his 1997 selection, and it has stayed that way for every tour since.

Seems like there is a middle ground somewhere

Picking up on bsando’s original point there - is that even possible?! Maybe i’m reading it wrong, but is the suggestion to have someone else pick the squad based on some sort of selection criteria and then the chosen coaching team are told to coach who they’ve been given without any input? Surely that’s just quotas by another name??? I can see that unions putting forward 10 players would be a way to avoid the arguments but for me you have to let the coaching team pick who they want. Plus, it would be a nightmare of back and forth to get the squad balance right in terms of the right number of props, locks, flankers, etc.

LordDowlais wrote:

alive555 wrote:Some interesting miscellaneous and surprising defence stats on the 6n website.

Missed Tackles

Curry - 11 (4th worst player in 6n)
H Watson - 0
Tipuric - 2
Beirne - 2


Rees Zammit - 9
DVM - 3
A Watson -7
Adams - 6
May - 5

North - 3
Harris 4
Rinrose - 6
Henshaw - 7

Hogg -2
Keenan 4
L Williams - 4

With these things as well, we really do need to see how many tackles they made, or attempted so we could have a percentage. For instance, Curry might have missed 11 of 100 tackles, and Tupiric missed the only two tackles he went for.

Nice try

Do you want to see the carry stats or the turnovers?

He's ahead in both of them too.

EST wrote:Hamish Watson v Tom Curry stats for this 6N

Mins Played 386 - 400
Turnovers conceded 3 – 6
Tries 1 - 0
Turnover won in the tackle 1 – 0
Turnovers won 4 - 1
Dominant Tackles 5 - 7
Missed tackles  0 - 11
Tackles made 55 - 63
Broken tackles 14 – 8
Offloads 2 - 2
Passes Made 16 - 12
Carries 67 - 41
Meters made 321 - 217

Tom Curry is a wonderful player, but Hamish Watson deserves his starting place this year - he has been an absolute warrior and would thrive playing in a bigger pack.

Perhaps you're right on Watson, he really is a wonderful player.

But not a chance Curry only got 1 turnover.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

EST wrote:Hamish Watson v Tom Curry stats for this 6N

Mins Played 386 - 400
Turnovers conceded 3 – 6
Tries 1 - 0
Turnover won in the tackle 1 – 0
Turnovers won 4 - 1
Dominant Tackles 5 - 7
Missed tackles  0 - 11
Tackles made 55 - 63
Broken tackles 14 – 8
Offloads 2 - 2
Passes Made 16 - 12
Carries 67 - 41
Meters made 321 - 217

Tom Curry is a wonderful player, but Hamish Watson deserves his starting place this year - he has been an absolute warrior and would thrive playing in a bigger pack.

Perhaps you're right on Watson, he really is a wonderful player.

But not a chance Curry only got 1 turnover.

Those are the official stats. Don't argue with facts!

I seem to remember previous posts and threads (Lions ones too) where people tried to use stats to prove player x was better than player y and the poster was shot down in flames with the usual ‘you can make stats look any way you want’ and ‘lies, damn lies and statistics’. So you can’t win really. Seem to remember Tipuric not missing a tackle for something ridiculous like 20 matches or something and the comeback was ‘yeah, but how many were dominant’; ‘yeah, but how many hard yards did he make’; ‘player x scored more drop goals’ (ok I made that one up!), etc. But basically, you’ll never get stats past people on here.

Turnover king is Tadhg Beirne, and what a player he is. Could very well be a Lions starter at 2nd row, whilst James Ryan seems to have regressed. I don't think many seen that coming.

alive555 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

alive555 wrote:Some interesting miscellaneous and surprising defence stats on the 6n website.

Missed Tackles

Curry - 11 (4th worst player in 6n)
H Watson - 0
Tipuric - 2
Beirne - 2


Rees Zammit - 9
DVM - 3
A Watson -7
Adams - 6
May - 5

North - 3
Harris 4
Rinrose - 6
Henshaw - 7

Hogg -2
Keenan 4
L Williams - 4

With these things as well, we really do need to see how many tackles they made, or attempted so we could have a percentage. For instance, Curry might have missed 11 of 100 tackles, and Tupiric missed the only two tackles he went for.

Nice try

Do you want to see the carry stats or the turnovers?

He's ahead in both of them too.

I'm not arguing, I'm just saying you need all the stats, not just stats to suit. For the record I think Watson should start for the Lions.

mikey_dragon wrote:Turnover king is Tadhg Beirne, and what a player he is. Could very well be a Lions starter at 2nd row, whilst James Ryan seems to have regressed. I don't think many seen that coming.

Now you are talking sense

My 2p - both Curry and Watson H are very likely to be picked for Lions squad and if one is Test starter it's highly likely other be on bench. Both been excellent this 6N and are consistently so pretty much always, so I have no worries whatsoever as to who is picked.

All this garbage about DVM defence are fried.

He had the best defensive stats for a winger in the 6n.

And the top try scorer, and the best meters made!

We all know the best players, it's just how we rank them is a bit different. To me, Watson and Curry are different types of players and I could see them playing at the same time and dominating. So if we forget the openside-blindside approach and go to the way the Boks have occasionally done it in the past the Left Flanker-Right Flanker, with those two it could work. Both can run, tackle, support, forage and have great line speed. What else do we need with our starting flankers? And Falatau there to clean up any messes.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

EST wrote:Hamish Watson v Tom Curry stats for this 6N

Mins Played 386 - 400
Turnovers conceded 3 – 6
Tries 1 - 0
Turnover won in the tackle 1 – 0
Turnovers won 4 - 1
Dominant Tackles 5 - 7
Missed tackles  0 - 11
Tackles made 55 - 63
Broken tackles 14 – 8
Offloads 2 - 2
Passes Made 16 - 12
Carries 67 - 41
Meters made 321 - 217

Tom Curry is a wonderful player, but Hamish Watson deserves his starting place this year - he has been an absolute warrior and would thrive playing in a bigger pack.

Perhaps you're right on Watson, he really is a wonderful player.

But not a chance Curry only got 1 turnover.

Just checked on the site again to make sure it was right and that's what they say - agree it seems low but there you go.

I genuinely do think Curry is a wonderful player (and Tipuric for that matter), I am sure both would be very good if selected - it's just that Watson has been immense this year, in fact he has been immense for Scotland for as long as I can remember, and I would love for him to be recognised for it.

doctor_grey wrote:We all know the best players, it's just how we rank them is a bit different.  To me, Watson and Curry are different types of players and I could see them playing at the same time and dominating.  So if we forget the openside-blindside approach and go to the way the Boks have occasionally done it in the past the Left Flanker-Right Flanker, with those two it could work.  Both can run, tackle, support, forage and have great line speed.  What else do we need with our starting flankers?  And Falatau there to clean up any messes.  

To be balanced. Tipuric is the best flanker at the line out. No question about that

Watson scored a try direct from a lineout  has tiperic?  

For what its worth I would have Watson and tiperic at a very similar level and Curry a step below - and the stats show that>  Id have Watson and tips in the team

Ok a bit light and underpowerd but the pace and ball playing ability!

As a back row if you are there last you have lost.

Tipuric was top tackler in the whole 6N. Where was Watson at tacking time?! Hanging out in the backs trying to get his ‘metres carried’ stats up for 606v2, that’s where!

Curry is probably the best 7 in the world at the moment and for the last 18 months. I want the lions to win so he has to start.

https://twitter.com/OptaJonny/status/1374723148889874436?s=19

For those who like your stats.

TJ wrote:Watson scored a try direct from a lineout  has tiperic?  

For what its worth I would have Watson and tiperic at a very similar level and Curry a step below - and the stats show that>  Id have Watson and tips in the team

Ok a bit light and underpowerd but the pace and ball playing ability!

Underpowered.....just a bit. It's ok, we're only playing the Boks!

I'd personally have Curry as the best openside in rugby at the minute...22 years old!

Curry may develop into the best but he is not on the level of Tips or Mish.  NOt even close  check the 6N stats. Sure its hard to play well when yo are surrounded by mince but even so currys performances are not even close

TJ wrote:Curry may develop into the best but he is not on the level of Tips or Mish.  NOt even close  check the 6N stats.  Sure its hard to play well when yo are surrounded by mince but even so currys performances are not even close

I think your anti English agenda is seeping through again tj.

TJ wrote:Curry may develop into the best but he is not on the level of Tips or Mish.  NOt even close  check the 6N stats.  Sure its hard to play well when yo are surrounded by mince but even so currys performances are not even close

I'll check a stat, the world cup finals played in. He was until the final head and shoulders above any other back row forward. His performance against France this year was at a level neither can reach.

TJ wrote:Curry may develop into the best but he is not on the level of Tips or Mish.  NOt even close  check the 6N stats.  Sure its hard to play well when yo are surrounded by mince but even so currys performances are not even close

Thats the problem. You get presented a perfectly respectable stat for a flanker and completely ignore it.

Tell you what, lets choose the flankers based on their ability under the high ball

Lets have a look at the Stats off the 6N stats page

Curry 217 m in 41 carries, 63 tackles made, 11 missed, turnovers won 1, conceded 6, broken tackles 8

Tips 112 m in 22 carries, 86 tackles made, 2 missed turnovers won 3, conceded 1. broken tackles 1

the Mish 321 m in 67 carries. 55 tackles made. missed none. turnovers made 4. conceded 3. broken tackles 14
https://www.sixnationsrugby.com/statistics/

Thats the problem. You get presented a perfectly respectable stat for a flanker and completely ignore it.

Very subjective - look at the all round Stats as on the 6n page

Can you list the stats in order of the most important please tj so we can accurately pick the best player please. We'll ignore the stats for the turbovers are wrong for curry at present.

I have had a chuckle at calling on objectivity to the way you talk about England!

In other good news John Inverdale has retired.

Of course you think they are wrong

here is another Watson the only one of the three with a try and a try assist.

A 7 needs to be an all round player. Runner, link to the backs, tackler, turnovers. Curry missed 1 in 6 of his tackle attempts. Tips one in 40. Mish didn't miss one! Mish and Tips were outstanding and in actionall over the park. curry was good at being a pain in rucks

The teams used their players in differnt ways

Lets look at another - penalties conceded
Curry 6
tips 1
Mish none

You'll be able to tell me where those missed tackles happened.

Can you list the stats in order of importance though please tj. You've made it clear you don't the rugby the least you can do is tell us the application of the stats you use.

Soul Requiem wrote:You'll be able to tell me where those missed tackles happened.

He won't be able to.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:You'll be able to tell me where those missed tackles happened.

He won't be able to.

Yes, too many to find out them all lol

Is Curry, Tipuric or Watson rugby's equivalent of Scholes, Lampard or Gerrard? There is the dangerous alternative that are all very good and it entirely depends how the Lions want to go about playing South Africa. The general consensus seems to be that England's decision to go with two opensides left them underpowered and South Africa took advantage.

The best back-row in terms of both metres made and carries (statistically) would be: 6. Stander 7. Watson 8. Faletau.

The best in terms of turnovers would be: 6. Beirne 7. Ritchie 8. Stander (Watson comes in fourth in terms of back-rows, if you wanted to be sneaky and class Beirne as a second-row then it'd be 6. Ritchie 7. Watson 8. Stander)

In terms of tackles made: 6. Navidi 7. Tipuric 8. Faletau

In terms of dominant tackles: 6. Curry 7. Watson 8. Navidi

In terms of penalties conceded: 6. Beirne 7. Curry 8. Ritchie

In terms of passes made: 6. Beirne 7. Tipuric 8. Stander

In terms of handling errors: 6. Beirne 7. Fagerson 8. Faletau (Mish made one handling error for 67 carries)


Apologies for the stats overload. Although, it increasingly seems to me that a back-row of Stander, Watson and Faletau may be the perfect balance of athleticism, breakdown impact and carrying. With Curry on the bench to turn the screw at the breakdown toward the end of the game, maybe even Curry and Tipuric if they go for a 6-2 split. Add Itoje and Beirne together in the second-row and it's beginning to look an athletic pack that would dominate the breakdown. In fact, I would be perfectly happy if the Lions turned up with a pack of 1. Jones 2. Owens 3. Furlong 4. Beirne 5. Itoje 6. Stander 7. Watson 8 Faletau. If Warren Gatland reads this he just ought to DM me and we can sort a proper moneyball approach to this whole tour.

Curry is a fine player no doubt but was underwhelming in this 6N probably because he had too much to do and trying too hard because of the poor play around him

Ok, lets settle this down a bit.

from the 6 nations there were a lot of good players

On form Watson from THIS 6 nations was one of the outstanding players and has been on form for a few years

Curry is a very good player, but not quite as good as Watson in THIS 6 nations (Impact on the team performance, stats, scores, and general bounciness)

You can not make an excuse that he was in a poorer team so this should be mitigated (as that has never been allowed for Scottish Player)

I think all 3 should tour

The main BEEF Scottish supporters have (IMO) - and why we get a bit annoyed and feel we need to stand our ground, is our players are summary dismissed and any time we disagree we get told we are anti Welsh / English (even though we point out the Welsh / English players that should tour AND we also point out we will have the least number on the tour

We get the arrogance of a team we beat in one and then lost by a point with 14 men in the last 6 months that we only have 1 or 2 players good enough to tour. We beat the 6 nations champions and then lost by a point with 14 men in the last 6 months....just remember than. (there will of course be * and reasons of course

1 or 2 - Geepers... - tell me you would not get mightly annoyed at that sort of dismissal.

(Top try scorer who missed less tackles that the wonder kid....but his defense is suspect?????) - but lets not go there lol - think they also both should tour - but that will be ignored to bash the Scottish and accuse us of being Anti Welsh again :-)