Lions Watch: Six Nations Report

by whatahitson Sun 14 Mar 2021, 5:08 pm

First topic message reminder :

Well we're nearly done with the Six Nations so if the Lions goes ahead who do you like the look of and who do you think will be touring?

by No 7&1/2 Tue 30 Mar 2021, 7:54 pm

TJ wrote:Curry is a fine player no doubt but was underwhelming in this 6N probably because he had too much to do and trying too hard because of the poor play around him

Can you list your stats in order of importance though please?

by Guest Tue 30 Mar 2021, 8:11 pm

R!skysports wrote:Ok, lets settle this down a bit.

from the 6 nations there were a lot of good players

On form Watson from THIS 6 nations was one of the outstanding players and has been on form for a few years

Curry is a very good player, but not quite as good as Watson in THIS 6 nations (Impact on the team performance, stats, scores, and general bounciness)

You can not make an excuse that he was in a poorer team so this should be mitigated (as that has never been allowed for Scottish Player)

I think all 3 should tour

The main BEEF Scottish supporters have (IMO) - and why we get a bit annoyed and feel we need to stand our ground, is our players are summary dismissed and any time we disagree we get told we are anti Welsh / English (even though we point out the Welsh / English players that should tour AND we also point out we will have the least number on the tour

We get the arrogance of a team we beat in one and then lost by a point with 14 men in the last 6 months that we only have 1 or 2 players good enough to tour. We beat the 6 nations champions and then lost by a point with 14 men in the last 6 months....just remember than. (there will of course be * and reasons of course

1 or 2 - Geepers... - tell me you would not get mightly annoyed at that sort of dismissal.

(Top try scorer who missed less tackles that the wonder kid....but his defense is suspect?????) - but lets not go there lol - think they also both should tour - but that will be ignored to bash the Scottish and accuse us of being Anti Welsh again :-)

Only one person that I can see has accused someone of being anti Welsh. So don’t try to make out it’s a trend or a common thing. 1 f****** person.

by BamBam Tue 30 Mar 2021, 8:18 pm

It’s more like

Watson = Gerrard
Curry = Lampard
Tipuric = Jermaine Jenas

by lostinwales Tue 30 Mar 2021, 9:20 pm

TJ wrote:
Thats the problem. You get presented a perfectly respectable stat for a flanker and completely ignore it.

Very subjective - look at the all round Stats as on the 6n page

All the stats are subjective

by TJ Tue 30 Mar 2021, 9:57 pm

lostinwales wrote:
TJ wrote:
Thats the problem. You get presented a perfectly respectable stat for a flanker and completely ignore it.

Very subjective - look at the all round Stats as on the 6n page

All the stats are subjective

Errmm - no most are objective.

by lostinwales Tue 30 Mar 2021, 10:36 pm

TJ wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
TJ wrote:
Thats the problem. You get presented a perfectly respectable stat for a flanker and completely ignore it.

Very subjective - look at the all round Stats as on the 6n page

All the stats are subjective

Errmm - no most are objective.

The weight we put on them is completely subjective. Some might look at meters run. Others ruck involvement. For some strange reason for a few nationality seems to trump everything.

by TJ Tue 30 Mar 2021, 10:55 pm

lostinwales wrote:
The weight we put on them is completely subjective. Some might look at meters run. Others ruck involvement. For some strange reason for a few nationality seems to trump everything.

Indeed that is true. Both aspects. Is that why you think curry has had a better 6N than Watson? Rolling Eyes

Personally i want as most folk do the 7 to be an all rounder. thats why Tips an Watson are so good

by alive555 Wed 31 Mar 2021, 12:15 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Curry is probably the best 7 in the world at the moment and for the last 18 months. I want the lions to win so he has to start.

https://twitter.com/OptaJonny/status/1374723148889874436?s=19

For those who like your stats.

With 11 misses tackles he's a liability

And a very serious one

by alive555 Wed 31 Mar 2021, 12:19 am

TJ wrote:Curry is a fine player no doubt but was underwhelming in this 6N probably because he had too much to do and trying too hard because of the poor play around him

So what. Hamish plays for the worst team in history and he kicks his arse

by alive555 Wed 31 Mar 2021, 12:25 am

LordDowlais wrote:
alive555 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
alive555 wrote:Some interesting miscellaneous and surprising defence stats on the 6n website.

Missed Tackles

Curry - 11 (4th worst player in 6n)
H Watson - 0
Tipuric - 2
Beirne - 2

Rees Zammit - 9
DVM - 3
A Watson -7
Adams - 6
May - 5

North - 3
Harris 4
Rinrose - 6
Henshaw - 7

Hogg -2
Keenan 4
L Williams - 4

With these things as well, we really do need to see how many tackles they made, or attempted so we could have a percentage. For instance, Curry might have missed 11 of 100 tackles, and Tupiric missed the only two tackles he went for.

Nice try

Do you want to see the carry stats or the turnovers?

He's ahead in both of them too.

I'm not arguing, I'm just saying you need all the stats, not just stats to suit. For the record I think Watson should start for the Lions.

No no.

You said DVM was a defensive liability.

It turns out RZ was by a long way a defensive liability

Worse. DVM was by far the BEST defensive winger

Your claims are literally mince

by lostinwales Wed 31 Mar 2021, 12:26 am

TJ wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
The weight we put on them is completely subjective. Some might look at meters run. Others ruck involvement. For some strange reason for a few nationality seems to trump everything.

Indeed that is true. Both aspects. Is that why you think curry has had a better 6N than Watson?

Personally i want as most folk do the 7 to be an all rounder. thats why Tips an Watson are so good

I don't think that Curry had a better six nations than Watson. I do think he has a fairly good chance of finishing his career as one of the all time greats, although hopefully we won't find out about that for a few years. He's very effective at his game and he's a great deal more versatile than Watson, or Tipuric for that matter. He's also got a fair few kg on both those guys and I wouldn't be surprised if that is a factor as I understand the boks are not exactly small and delicate.

If Curry doesn't get picked, or does and does not make the 1st team well that is OK. The coaches pick a team to do the job that they think will win them the tour, and many good players will miss out.

by alive555 Wed 31 Mar 2021, 12:32 am

lostinwales wrote:
TJ wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
The weight we put on them is completely subjective. Some might look at meters run. Others ruck involvement. For some strange reason for a few nationality seems to trump everything.

Indeed that is true. Both aspects. Is that why you think curry has had a better 6N than Watson?

Personally i want as most folk do the 7 to be an all rounder. thats why Tips an Watson are so good

I don't think that Curry had a better six nations than Watson. I do think he has a fairly good chance of finishing his career as one of the all time greats, although hopefully we won't find out about that for a few years. He's very effective at his game and he's a great deal more versatile than Watson, or Tipuric for that matter. He's also got a fair few kg on both those guys and I wouldn't be surprised if that is a factor as I understand the boks are not exactly small and delicate.

If Curry doesn't get picked, or does and does not make the 1st team well that is OK. The coaches pick a team to do the job that they think will win them the tour, and many good players will miss out.

Which versatility are you referring to because the stats we have says he is a defensive liability.?

by TJ Wed 31 Mar 2021, 6:10 am

alive555 wrote:
Which versatility are you referring to because the stats we have says he is a defensive liability.?

I think that is unfair. He was trying to do the work of two or 3 men and was playing in a well beaten side

by Old Man Wed 31 Mar 2021, 6:53 am

alive555 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Curry is probably the best 7 in the world at the moment and for the last 18 months. I want the lions to win so he has to start.

https://twitter.com/OptaJonny/status/1374723148889874436?s=19

For those who like your stats.

With 11 misses tackles he's a liability

And a very serious one

Missed tackles can often be misleading, some players go for tackles that they most likely won’t make, yet their attempt alters the route of a runner, or closes a gap which pushes the carrier towards traffic.

So in my view missed tackles is very subjective.

The role Pieter Steph du Toit played for SA was very much in that mould.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 31 Mar 2021, 7:08 am

This is what we're talking about above alive. Without context you think the stats show a defensive liability. That just makes you look silly.

Oh and TJ. Can you list those stats in order of importance please? Its reminding me of beshocked when he said the only thing you needed to know about wingers were their trying scoring stats.

by Sgt_Pooly Wed 31 Mar 2021, 7:26 am

Stats can really be twisted to suit any agenda so I personally tend to take them with a pinch of salt. I like the black and white stats like jackling and pens conceded, but meters made and missed tackles has no context.

For example, Billy used to regularly top the meters made stats for England because he would stand in the back 3 to receive kicks. You would then get some posters using this to compare his carrying to Stander, who didn't do this.....no context.

Stating so and so had better stats in this department meaning he is a better player(and sticking to this as the gospel of all things) is a very lazy argument.

by BigTrevsbigmac Wed 31 Mar 2021, 7:45 am

On that subject...
Some interesting 6Ns statistics

Player who made the most metres......Elliot Daly

Wales kicked the most had the most handling errors and were only behind Italy in the number of missed tackles.

by LordDowlais Wed 31 Mar 2021, 7:53 am

The Oracle wrote:
R!skysports wrote:Ok, lets settle this down a bit.

from the 6 nations there were a lot of good players

On form Watson from THIS 6 nations was one of the outstanding players and has been on form for a few years

Curry is a very good player, but not quite as good as Watson in THIS 6 nations (Impact on the team performance, stats, scores, and general bounciness)

You can not make an excuse that he was in a poorer team so this should be mitigated (as that has never been allowed for Scottish Player)

I think all 3 should tour

The main BEEF Scottish supporters have (IMO) - and why we get a bit annoyed and feel we need to stand our ground, is our players are summary dismissed and any time we disagree we get told we are anti Welsh / English (even though we point out the Welsh / English players that should tour AND we also point out we will have the least number on the tour

We get the arrogance of a team we beat in one and then lost by a point with 14 men in the last 6 months that we only have 1 or 2 players good enough to tour. We beat the 6 nations champions and then lost by a point with 14 men in the last 6 months....just remember than. (there will of course be * and reasons of course

1 or 2 - Geepers... - tell me you would not get mightly annoyed at that sort of dismissal.

(Top try scorer who missed less tackles that the wonder kid....but his defense is suspect?????) - but lets not go there lol - think they also both should tour - but that will be ignored to bash the Scottish and accuse us of being Anti Welsh again :-)

Only one person that I can see has accused someone of being anti Welsh. So don’t try to make out it’s a trend or a common thing. 1 f****** person.

And just to be clear, I didn't accuse the Scottish of this, I accused one member, and he is English.

by LordDowlais Wed 31 Mar 2021, 8:00 am

alive555 wrote:No no.

You said DVM was a defensive liability.

It turns out RZ was by a long way a defensive liability

Worse. DVM was by far the BEST defensive winger

Your claims are literally mince

OK, please show me where I have said this. I want you to quote me, I will keep asking and calling you out on your nonsense until you can prove where I have said this.

Also, for the record, I have said I will be surprised if LRZ goes on tour.

by LordDowlais Wed 31 Mar 2021, 8:49 am

Sadly, but just because of certain members on this forum, I have had to go through this whole thread again, just to see if I said anything about DVM and his defence.

What a surprise, I found NOTHING.

I will not hold my breath though.

by R!skysports Wed 31 Mar 2021, 9:07 am

So in summary

there are a lot of great players

This 6 nations and the last 6 months, several Scottish players played better than some others

9 of the last 10 years , less so

Selection will be based on form, history and Gatland Tactics

Wales has some good players, Scotland has some good players, Ireland has some good player, England has 1 good player ( boxing

)

by R!skysports Wed 31 Mar 2021, 9:09 am

Why I think VDM will at least be a in serious conversations.....

Not sure many others would have scored that first try

https://twitter.com/SixNationsRugby/status/1376598989949263877?s=20

and he is pacy (not the fastest - but still very fast)

by No 7&1/2 Wed 31 Mar 2021, 9:12 am

Can we use that clip for when someone wants to take Daly based on his metres made stats please?

by mountain man Wed 31 Mar 2021, 9:12 am

One thing, as and when and if Manu gets back to full fitness I hope he DOESN'T get picked for Lions. England need him fit and firing for autumn and beyond not crocked in SA.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 31 Mar 2021, 9:13 am

Tuilagi is likely off to France so won't be available to England. Let him get picked.

by mountain man Wed 31 Mar 2021, 9:17 am

Has that rumour been confirmed or is it just that, a rumour?

by No 7&1/2 Wed 31 Mar 2021, 9:18 am

Nothing confirmed. Hes not going to stick around on less money though. Thats why he left Leicester.

by flyhalffactory Wed 31 Mar 2021, 9:22 am

Stats are usually objective e.g. "Tackles made" but are always misleading e.g. "Tackles Missed" now if you were an Australian winger who was unfortunate to be marking Jonah Lomu in his prime, then your stats could be extremely skewed.
We can argue the toss over the validity of stats until the cows come home but making sweeping statements over one tournament can be in itself misleading

Curry is a brilliant defender! not by 2021 6Ns standards but by ANC standards maybe and by the most relevant direct comparison SA v Eng WC 2019 then definitely not
DvdM is a rubbish defender! not by 2021 standards but over the last 12 months....maybe who knows

If you want my two-penneth Gatland & Co will not just pick on "form", if they are any decent coaches, they will look at the last 18 months form, the individual direct matches v SA and what the tour (weather, grounds etc) will be like .

There will be players in the squad based on their "experience credits", one thing for sure none of us will agree 100% with each other

by Hazel Sapling Wed 31 Mar 2021, 9:37 am

In terms of advanced stats, the NBA has started looking at things like Total Rebound Percentage and there is an argument to ask what proportion of a teams tackles or carries are made by J Gray for Scotland vs Itoje for England is maybe more useful than saying J Gray made 22 tackles and Itoje 10. It won't adjust entirely for different defensive systems but it might reflect the game better.

In the 2 Six Nations (8 competitive games, ignore Italy) since the RWC Scotland won 4 games, England 4, Ireland 4 and Wales 3. France are top performers with 5. Include the ANC and England and Ireland move up the table whilst Scotland and Wales stay where they are.

by alive555 Wed 31 Mar 2021, 10:08 am

flyhalffactory wrote:Stats are usually objective e.g. "Tackles made" but are always misleading e.g. "Tackles Missed" now if you were an Australian winger who was unfortunate to be marking Jonah Lomu in his prime, then your stats could be extremely skewed.
We can argue the toss over the validity of stats until the cows come home but making sweeping statements over one tournament can be in itself misleading

Curry is a brilliant defender! not by 2021 6Ns standards but by ANC standards maybe and by the most relevant direct comparison SA v Eng WC 2019 then definitely not
DvdM is a rubbish defender! not by 2021 standards but over the last 12 months....maybe who knows

If you want my two-penneth Gatland & Co will not just pick on "form", if they are any decent coaches, they will look at the last 18 months form, the individual direct matches v SA and what the tour (weather, grounds etc) will be like .

There will be players in the squad based on their "experience credits", one thing for sure none of us will agree 100% with each other

What a joke of an argument. We just had 5 games vs the top teams in the northern hemishpere. Curry missed an average of 2 tackles more per game vs the EXACT SAME opposition Hamish Watson faced, who missed precisely none.

If the selectors dont look at stats, then might as well call up Martin Johnson

by alive555 Wed 31 Mar 2021, 10:16 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:You'll be able to tell me where those missed tackles happened.

He won't be able to.

he doent need to . Curry is a defensive liability.

by Soul Requiem Wed 31 Mar 2021, 10:17 am

alive555 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:You'll be able to tell me where those missed tackles happened.

He won't be able to.

he doent need to . Curry is a defensive liability.

You must have been watching a different player to me these past three years.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 31 Mar 2021, 10:17 am

Not sure I've come across you too often alive but I'm putting you in the miaow bracket of posters!

by BamBam Wed 31 Mar 2021, 10:19 am

Nah alive is a good poster, definitely not of the feline variety, think he's just annoyed about Watson being criticised / overlooked

Get them both in the same team, will be great fun to watch. Curry has developed the attacking side of his game while paired with Underhill but he made his mark through his heavy hitting tackling and jackling, so think he'd complement Watson's strengths well

by Sgt_Pooly Wed 31 Mar 2021, 10:28 am

Alive, you seem to be getting very agitated for some reason. Maybe you should calm down a little, I don't want you blowing a gasket over a Curry missed tackle.

by **RiscaGame** Wed 31 Mar 2021, 10:50 am

LordDowlais wrote:I will keep asking and calling you out on your nonsense until you can prove where I have said this.

No you won't.

by LordDowlais Wed 31 Mar 2021, 11:18 am

RiscaGame wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I will keep asking and calling you out on your nonsense until you can prove where I have said this.

No you won't.

So we can just allow false accusations on this forum without reprieve ?

Or is this just privvy to me ?

by Sgt_Pooly Wed 31 Mar 2021, 11:25 am

LordDowlais wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I will keep asking and calling you out on your nonsense until you can prove where I have said this.

No you won't.

So we can just allow false accusations on this forum without reprieve ?

Or is this just privvy to me ?

Guys (all of you involved in this nonsense)......let's all take a step back and grow up a bit. The constant childish bickering is spoiling a good thread. It's Wednesday, the sun is out....I'm going for a pint after work.....don't spoil my day please Hug

by **RiscaGame** Wed 31 Mar 2021, 11:41 am

You've made your point. If they choose to ignore it, then there isn't much as a moderator that I can do. What I can do, is tell you not to harass posters or spam the board, because somebody may have accidentally confused you with another poster.

I gave you the opportunity to reply. You already put two posts up saying you haven't said what was suggested (which was more than enough). There doesn't need to be any more.

If you wish to take this further, please adhere to Rule 4 on the Site Rules.

by LordDowlais Wed 31 Mar 2021, 11:49 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I will keep asking and calling you out on your nonsense until you can prove where I have said this.

No you won't.

So we can just allow false accusations on this forum without reprieve ?

Or is this just privvy to me ?

Guys (all of you involved in this nonsense)......let's all take a step back and grow up a bit. The constant childish bickering is spoiling a good thread. It's Wednesday, the sun is out....I'm going for a pint after work.....don't spoil my day please

OK fair enough. thumbsup

by No 7&1/2 Wed 31 Mar 2021, 12:04 pm

Has anyone any strong feelings on the coaches? I know Robertson has thrown his cap in the ring. Edwards has expressed a desire but doesn't believe he will be chosen. Head coaches like Farrell have typically turned it down understandably.

by Sgt_Pooly Wed 31 Mar 2021, 12:06 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Has anyone any strong feelings on the coaches? I know Robertson has thrown his cap in the ring. Edwards has expressed a desire but doesn't believe he will be chosen. Head coaches like Farrell have typically turned it down understandably.

I have a strong feeling that the English coaches are the best in all regards.

I'll start it off for you boxing

by TJ Wed 31 Mar 2021, 12:12 pm

townsend is a Poopie coach so he will be going for sure angel

by flyhalffactory Wed 31 Mar 2021, 12:30 pm

alive555 wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:Stats are usually objective e.g. "Tackles made" but are always misleading e.g. "Tackles Missed" now if you were an Australian winger who was unfortunate to be marking Jonah Lomu in his prime, then your stats could be extremely skewed.
We can argue the toss over the validity of stats until the cows come home but making sweeping statements over one tournament can be in itself misleading

Curry is a brilliant defender! not by 2021 6Ns standards but by ANC standards maybe and by the most relevant direct comparison SA v Eng WC 2019 then definitely not
DvdM is a rubbish defender! not by 2021 standards but over the last 12 months....maybe who knows

If you want my two-penneth Gatland & Co will not just pick on "form", if they are any decent coaches, they will look at the last 18 months form, the individual direct matches v SA and what the tour (weather, grounds etc) will be like .

There will be players in the squad based on their "experience credits", one thing for sure none of us will agree 100% with each other

What a joke of an argument. We just had 5 games vs the top teams in the northern hemishpere. Curry missed an average of 2 tackles more per game vs the EXACT SAME opposition Hamish Watson faced, who missed precisely none.

If the selectors dont look at stats, then might as well call up Martin Johnson

Peace Compardre kiss

I didn't say they don't look at stats, of course they look at stats, but the stats are a stake in the ground. I said a stat is objective i.e. "Missed Tackles" but on their own they don't really mean a thing e.g.
A. Tackles Missed - Player A = 10, Player B = 4 it would seem like player A is pretty poor, it would seem that Player B is 150% more effective, but if we add just one more stat into the mix, let's say
B. Tackles Made - Player A = 100, Player B = 50, then we get a totally different complexion of the player performance as now it seems Player A is 100% more effective. Suddenly it look like its dependant on...... if we look at the individual stats or take them together
ok lets add one more
C. Tackle Efficiency % - B/(A+B) x100 - Player A = 91%, Player b = 93%, actually it would seem both players are pretty close

Three different stats - Three different outcomes or views!
Then we bring into account the accuracy of the data
Then we start adding more stats
Tackles - Offloads after being tackled
Tackles - Turnovered after being tackled
Tackles - Giving away a pen after being tackled
Suddenly the original stat is so immaterial.....as you said we may as well call up Gavin instead of Adam Hastings

I think DvdM should tour, mainly because he is a winger who primarily is there to score tries not defend, the SA wings are going to be big lumps and DvdM can go through any player or (in the case of the Sco v Eng try) players
I think Hamish should tour because he punches above his weight, he rarely gives away pens under pressure, he always pressurises the opposition and he is top form
But it's nothing to do with one stat

by LordDowlais Wed 31 Mar 2021, 12:36 pm

I tried saying this earlier. But it is a very valid point you make when talking about stats.

by **RiscaGame** Wed 31 Mar 2021, 12:40 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Has anyone any strong feelings on the coaches? I know Robertson has thrown his cap in the ring. Edwards has expressed a desire but doesn't believe he will be chosen. Head coaches like Farrell have typically turned it down understandably.

I get it if Farrell won't go, but would be surprised.

I expected something pretty similar to last tour really, save for somebody else instead of Howley (Townsend).

by flyhalffactory Wed 31 Mar 2021, 12:47 pm

on one side
https://www.theroar.com.au/2021/03/28/lions-watch-sequel-selecting-a-full-squad-for-the-british-and-irish-lions/

On the flip side
https://www.theroar.com.au/2021/03/31/who-makes-south-africas-squad-for-the-lions-series/

Nice articles drumroll

by Guest Wed 31 Mar 2021, 1:09 pm

On the coaching front, I wonder if Toonie can be arsed to go this time??? I hope he goes.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 31 Mar 2021, 1:10 pm

I would like a freshened set from my point of view. Would be nice for Edwards. On a slightly selfish view it would be interesting should Jones step down to get a closer look at Roberston in an international set up. His rep is excellent but you never know,

by **BigGee** Wed 31 Mar 2021, 1:14 pm

Why would France let Edwards go?

They have got no skin in the game, so would seem a bit odd.

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