England: Autumn Internationals

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England squad for autumn Tests:

Forwards: Jamie Blamire (Newcastle), Callum Chick (Newcastle), Jamie George (Saracens), Tom Curry (Sale), Trevor Davison (Newcastle), Nic Dolly (Leicester), Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins), Charlie Ewels (Bath), Ellis Genge (Leicester), Jonny Hill (Exeter), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton), Joe Marler (Harlequins), George Martin (Leicester), Sam Simmonds (Exeter), Kyle Sinckler (Bristol), Will Stuart (Bath), Sam Underhill (Bath)

Backs: Mark Atkinson (Gloucester), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Tommy Freeman (Northampton), George Furbank (Northampton), Max Malins (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester), Raffi Quirke (Sale), Adam Radwan (Newcastle), Harry Randall (Bristol), Henry Slade (Exeter), Marcus Smith (Harlequins), Freddie Steward (Leicester), Manu Tuilagi (Sale), Joe Marchant (Quins), Ben Youngs (Leicester)

In Positions:
1.Marler, Genge
2.George, Blamire, Dolly
3.Sinckler, Stuart, Davison
4.Itoje, Hill
5.Lawes, Ewels
6.Curry, Martin
7.Underhill, Ludlam
8.Dombrandt, Simmonds, Chick

9.Youngs, Randall, Quirke
10.Smith

11.May, Radwan
12.Farrell, Atkinson
13.Tuilagi, Slade
14.Freeman, Marchant
15.Steward, Malins, Furbank
-------------------------------------------------
England v Tonga - 6th November
England v Australia - 13th November
England v South Africa - 20th November

GeordieFalcon wrote:Manu ran more at gaps that the usual battering ram hes been used at in the past. It was very noticeable.

Imagine Smith popping Manu through those gaps...and Slade / Marchant / Radwan / May running off him. Its a nice thought.

To be fair to Manu he has always been a 13 rather than a 12 and he says himself he prefers running into gaps and using his pace rather than being a 12 smashing into the defence. We have just not had a pure 12 in Manu's time hence he gets used there for obvious reasons.

How about this permutation:

10   Farrell
12   Atkinson
13   Manu

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:How about this permutation:

10   Farrell
12   Atkinson
13   Manu

You are going to get me all nostalgic for Tindall and Noon at this rate

Atkinson did look ponderously slow off the bench Vs Tonga. Australia have some pacey backs who I'm sure would back themselves to be past him and away with relative ease. Isolating Farrell and Atkinson with their combined lack of pace and Manu's tendency to fly out the line to manipulate line breaks.

Given how well Owen F usually takes being benched, if Eddie tells him he’s on the bench this weekend I think Marcus smith will probably get another leg injury!

lostinwales wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:How about this permutation:

10   Farrell
12   Atkinson
13   Manu

You are going to get me all nostalgic for Tindall and Noon at this rate

Ahhhhhhhhhhh, those were the days, Flood at 10 as well from memory.

Nothing actually comes to mind as it was dross to watch, but memory says it worked.

Sam, it was tongue in cheek.

Will jone's be trying a new 10/12 pairing in Smith 10 Farrerl12 with Manu at 13 sending a message to Ford try harder?

Will Furbank be on the Bench as a replacement?

lostinwales wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:How about this permutation:

10   Farrell
12   Atkinson
13   Manu

You are going to get me all nostalgic for Tindall and Noon at this rate

Even better, didn't we get a Hape and Tindall pairing a few times as well? And if i'm not going mad Andy Goode played some games at 10 in the past... the horrors we've had to endure!

majesticimperialman wrote:Will jone's be trying a new 10/12 pairing in  Smith 10 Farrerl12 with Manu at 13 sending a message to Ford try harder?

Will Furbank be on the Bench as a replacement?

Blimey if Ford tries any harder... His last few games have been some of his best, possibly ever. The game Vs Saints he was incredible as close to a complete performance as you'll see. Having played last season with a niggle Ford looks freed now, I suspect Eddie has left him to make sure he's over his injury and back to his best before possible reintroduction I'm the 6N by which time Smith will be bedded in and the squad can benefit from the increased competition.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Will jone's be trying a new 10/12 pairing in  Smith 10 Farrerl12 with Manu at 13 sending a message to Ford try harder?

Will Furbank be on the Bench as a replacement?

Blimey if Ford tries any harder... His last few games have been some of his best, possibly ever. The game Vs Saints he was incredible as close to a complete performance as you'll see. Having played last season with a niggle Ford looks freed now, I suspect Eddie has left him to make sure he's over his injury and back to his best before possible reintroduction I'm the 6N by which time Smith will be bedded in and the squad can benefit from the increased competition.

And with Ford, Smith at 10, Dan Kelly improving at 12, Manu and Slade....we can finally release Farrell....

Ford is back in the squad apparently...need to confirm.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Will jone's be trying a new 10/12 pairing in  Smith 10 Farrerl12 with Manu at 13 sending a message to Ford try harder?

Will Furbank be on the Bench as a replacement?

Blimey if Ford tries any harder... His last few games have been some of his best, possibly ever. The game Vs Saints he was incredible as close to a complete performance as you'll see. Having played last season with a niggle Ford looks freed now, I suspect Eddie has left him to make sure he's over his injury and back to his best before possible reintroduction I'm the 6N by which time Smith will be bedded in and the squad can benefit from the increased competition.

And with Ford, Smith at 10,  Dan Kelly improving at 12, Manu and Slade....we can finally release Farrell....

Dan Kelly isn't ready yet, neither is Max Omojoh but they both have good potential at 12 going forwards. If they get time on the summer tour next year that could put them in the frame though. Create competition and force improvement all round.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ford is back in the squad apparently...need to confirm.

I thought that was reported before the Farrell false positive was confirmed. After the false positive was confirmed it died off. He may have been on standby if Farrell wasn't able to take part.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ford is back in the squad apparently...need to confirm.

I thought that was reported before the Farrell false positive was confirmed. After the false positive was confirmed it died off. He may have been on standby if Farrell wasn't able to take part.

I can't see any references beyond a couple of Ruck articles from the weekend. I suspect it was speculative based on Farrell's potential unavailability

RugbyPass now reporting that Marler has tested positive for COVID and will be self isolating for 10 days - makes him a possible for SA but definitely out for Australia unless they can prove it was a false positive.

Probably means that Mako will be called up. Given the Aussies have improved massively in scrummaging, that's a potential worry if they can field their full squad (think there was a concussion protocol to be followed after the Scotland match).

Great. Mako Vunipola with his face in the dirt at scrum time.

Poorfour wrote:RugbyPass now reporting that Marler has tested positive for COVID and will be self isolating for 10 days - makes him a possible for SA but definitely out for Australia unless they can prove it was a false positive.

Probably means that Mako will be called up. Given the Aussies have improved massively in scrummaging, that's a potential worry if they can field their full squad (think there was a concussion protocol to be followed after the Scotland match).

Thanks to Scotland (especially Sam Johnson) the Australian scrum might be a little weaker this weekend.

lostinwales wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ford is back in the squad apparently...need to confirm.

I thought that was reported before the Farrell false positive was confirmed. After the false positive was confirmed it died off. He may have been on standby if Farrell wasn't able to take part.

I can't see any references beyond a couple of Ruck articles from the weekend. I suspect it was speculative based on Farrell's potential unavailability

Ruck just make stuff up. See their 'leaked' England squad just before the training squad was announced for reference.

They very occasionally get something right (stopped clock and all that) but their stuff as a whole is complete drivel. It's basically just a fans twitter account that somehow got funding for a pish website.

Apparently Bevan Rodd being called up.

Bevan Rodd is a really good young player so I'd be delighted for him to get a go. He offers something different to all our other props as his strength around the park is at the breakdown rather than carrying or a huge tackle count.

Scotland beat this Australia side at the weekend despite them missing Sutherland at LH, McInally and Brown at hooker, Cummings and Gray at lock. That's their first choice LH, first and second choice hooker and their starting lock pairing. Then George Turner went off after about ten minutes so youngster Ewan Ashman had to play 70 minutes. Their bench props were Jamie Bhatti and Oli Kebble covering TH when he's really a LH.

I don't mean that disparagingly to Scotland. I really rate their side and frequently talk many of their players up on here as others dismiss them. Several of the players I'd usually talk up were missing at the weekend though.

The scrum isn't suddenly a big concern against this Australian side. Their forwards mobility around the park, sharp halfbacks (I really rate Nic White) and dangerous outside backs are the danger.

If nothing else it'll tie Rodd to us which is a good thing.

king_carlos wrote:Bevan Rodd is a really good young player so I'd be delighted for him to get a go. He offers something different to all our other props as his strength around the park is at the breakdown rather than carrying or a huge tackle count.

Scotland beat this Australia side at the weekend despite them missing Sutherland at LH, McInally and Brown at hooker, Cummings and Gray at lock. That's their first choice LH, first and second choice hooker and their starting lock pairing. Then George Turner went off after about ten minutes so youngster Ewan Ashman had to play 70 minutes. Their bench props were Jamie Bhatti and Oli Kebble covering TH when he's really a LH.

I don't mean that disparagingly to Scotland. I really rate their side and frequently talk many of their players up on here as others dismiss them. Several of the players I'd usually talk up were missing at the weekend though.

The scrum isn't suddenly a big concern against this Australian side. Their forwards mobility around the park, sharp halfbacks (I really rate Nic White) and dangerous outside backs are the danger.

Australia really don't change much. They always seem to be one of the smartest teams out there. They do seem to have gone for the behemoths in the pack this time so I don't think the tight 5 is that mobile (or that good outside of the lineouts to be honest). But the new blindside looks useful and Hooper the same old. White may be good but I am not convinced that JOC is the best FH around.

We played well on Saturday

Lets see how we go playing the same way against a far better outfit.

Australia beat SA and Argentina twice during the Rugby Championship, whilst SA almost pulled the double on NZ. The three traditional SH powers all present high degrees of difficulty even if Australia is the weakest. Even Argentina gave France a good contest on the weekend.

If Tupou is out, it will make life much easier for England's LH's. If not, it will be a baptism by fire for whatever LH he faces. He almost singlehandedly turned the scrum in Australia's favour going against Schoeman (who is a mountain of a man and kept Sutherland out of the Edinburgh side).

We should have too much for Aus, better scrum or not. As LIW stated, JOC isn't a great FH and can definitely be got at. If things go relatively to plan you'd expect England by 10pts at least.

They didn't get the luck last week but yes I really think it should be England by double figures.

And marler definitely has covid. May put doubt for SA as well if its even moderate. That would be a blow.

king_carlos wrote:Bevan Rodd is a really good young player so I'd be delighted for him to get a go. He offers something different to all our other props as his strength around the park is at the breakdown rather than carrying or a huge tackle count.

Scotland beat this Australia side at the weekend despite them missing Sutherland at LH, McInally and Brown at hooker, Cummings and Gray at lock. That's their first choice LH, first and second choice hooker and their starting lock pairing. Then George Turner went off after about ten minutes so youngster Ewan Ashman had to play 70 minutes. Their bench props were Jamie Bhatti and Oli Kebble covering TH when he's really a LH.

I don't mean that disparagingly to Scotland. I really rate their side and frequently talk many of their players up on here as others dismiss them. Several of the players I'd usually talk up were missing at the weekend though.

The scrum isn't suddenly a big concern against this Australian side. Their forwards mobility around the park, sharp halfbacks (I really rate Nic White) and dangerous outside backs are the danger.

Australia seemed to be really missing Cooper and their big, powerful ball carriers in the backs.

I think if we have any of Ford/Farrel/Smith starting and if Youngs is on form our halfbacks will be better then theirs and with guys like Manu in the backs we'll have more power.

Also before we all start chalking this up as an England win remember Oz are a smart side and we can often play into their hands, if we start just trying to smash them or rush up and leave gaps they'll happily take those chances. They're a confidence team and if they get an early score they will be a lot better.

yappysnap wrote:Also before we all start chalking this up as an England win remember Oz are a smart side and we can often play into their hands, if we start just trying to smash them or rush up and leave gaps they'll happily take those chances. They're a confidence team and if they get an early score they will be a lot better.

They don't have Folau either.

From BBC: 'After coming close to giving up rugby following his release by Newcastle Under-18s a few years ago, Adam Radwan wanted to savour every moment of the Twickenham experience last Saturday.

"It probably didn't really hit me until we got there," the England wing explained on the Rugby Union Weekly podcast.

"As the bus approached, it was just packed, it was absolutely packed; there were people absolutely everywhere and there was a tight channel for the bus to drive through the fans.

"I took my AirPods out when we approached, because I wanted to absorb it, I wanted to feel it."

Radwan's route to the top has been unconventional and convoluted; after his release as a teenager he played in the lower leagues and on the Sevens circuit before re-joining the Newcastle Academy in 2017.

Radwan produced a spectacular finish for his first England try on his debut against Canada in the summer
A string of outstanding performances at club level led to a first cap in the summer against Canada, a debut he celebrated with a stunning hat-trick. Saturday against Tonga, though, was the first time the 23-year-old had played with the full 82,000 home fans in attendance, an occasion he marked with an early try.

"It has been a bit of a weird route, but it has ended up all right," he added.

"It was just a really special day. And having my family there to experience it as well; I was very proud to have them there. It was just very special."

Radwan's combination of footwork and natural speed - he has been clocked in England camp at a peak of 10.85 metres per second but has never been timed over 100m - has drawn comparisons with the Springboks World Cup winning superstar Cheslin Kolbe from head coach Eddie Jones: a major compliment or extra pressure?

"It's not a bad thing to hear; it probably puts a bit of pressure on, but I quite like that and feel I work quite well under pressure," Radwan said.


And Radwan insists he is being given licence to have a go against Australia this weekend, even though the stakes will be higher and his time on the ball less.

"Eddie wants me to free up a little bit more and really have a crack. My game won't change, I know that," he said.

"My first instinct is always to run first. I think I make decisions in my head without really realising. My legs just take over and it just happens."

Jones himself hit the headlines in the aftermath of the Tonga game for his clumsy comments about fly-half Marcus Smith and the pitfalls of off-field distractions - citing US Open tennis champion Emma Raducanu - but Radwan offers clarity about what the England boss demands from his rookies.

"What he means is don't lose sight of the important things. Make sure you are always being diligent and you are always working hard, and don't think you have made it," he said.

"At this level it is so competitive and everyone wants to be in this position and this environment, so unless you are constantly working hard then someone else is going to take it."


"There are two players on the pitch that got the crowd more excited than anyone else against Tonga: Marcus Smith and Adam Radwan," explained Rugby Union Weekly's Ugo Monye.

"And I love it, because the crowd sees the potential and they expect things to happen."


Didn't realise he was from Osmotherly and likes a parmo. Knew there was something about the lad despite playing for Newcastle! A game against Australia will tell us more again about the lad. He'll need to be aware defensively as if he's out of position there's not too many better teams that could take advantage. He'll also get ball in hand and a bit of space so we may get a bit more razzle dazzle.

Re the Jones comments/warning towards Marcus Smith et al avoiding sponships/outside rugby influences, seems to me a bit of Jones playing to the look at me rather than the players ahead of their biggest games for their country and some old schoolness. Very similar to Alex Ferguson again (keeps striking me), he would always ship off players who didn't take the warnings whether it be drink, celeb outings from Paul McGrath, Lee Sharpe to David Beckham. Was it on here someone mentioned that may have counted against Itoje for captain?

I thought he looked a bit lost at times last week and you can tell it's taking a bit of time to settle in for him after quite a meteoric rise.

I'd like to see him sitting back with the FB and taking the ball up from deep a bit more, ala Jason Robinson. With his insane acceleration and stepping ability (something that really developed over the last year), he could really cause issues for defenses. Even if used as decoy, it gives the defensive line something to think about.

That was his third game for England...1st against a "decent" tier 2 side.

He did just fine. He just needs games to build experience. And that comes with...playing games.

Another huge step up this weekend...but as a falcon who watches him week in week out...hes more than capable both offensively AND defensively.

I also thought as a team...the back 3 worked very well. Having Steward alongside you will give a winger confidence defensively aswell...

Yeah have to admit I thought he did well. Didn't get ball in hand as often as you'd like but we lacked a bit of direction for me in the first half. I think Jones will probably start with Farrell at 10 which even if I don't agree as best way forward will be a huge leap forward at fly half and he should get more chances there. Hugely looking forward to it, and I do expect a step forward in performance for the team as a whole.

Rodd confirmed ahead of Vunipola.

Good...so he's giving the kids the nod.

Still think hes trialing this AI's (newbies are getting an audition)...and come the 6n...EVERYONE is back in contention...and it'll be a full strength 1st choice squad...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Good...so he's giving the kids the nod.

Still think hes trialing this AI's (newbies are getting an audition)...and come the 6n...EVERYONE is back in contention...and it'll be a full strength 1st choice squad...

I think that's a good assessment - the question is whether any of the old timers can force their way back in if the new kids do well. Last time around the cull was brutal and largely final.

Exactly Poorfour...if the kids play well v Australia and SA, then the ball is very much in the old guys court...if they want their shirt back. They'll have to earn it.

And id even put Farrell in there, that he needs to prove he merits that shirt now.

It's a bold move, but then I am personally fed up of watching Mako eating grass come scrum time.  It seems that when the referee gets on his case, he cannot turn it around and we get whistled out of the set piece.  I'd go as far to say that I don't think that we could beat the current Springboks with Mako in the starting team.  We'd get whistled to death again.  Mind you, I'm not sure a 21 prop will lock out the scrum either.  

I'd love to get back to a point where we have a dominant scrum, it seems like it has been ages since I have been properly confident in leathering the opposition in the setpiece.

Your talking about pre-rule change days there Cumbrian.
England have had a solid scrum for a long time - but not that destructive scrum of old.
And thats not a reflection of front row - its the whole unit.

propdavid_london wrote:Your talking about pre-rule change days there Cumbrian.
England have had a solid scrum for a long time - but not that destructive scrum of old.  
And thats not a reflection of front row - its the whole unit.  

I think that’s true to some degree - but scrums are less destructive across the board now. South Africa have one, especially when either a) their replacement props (who would be good enough to start for anyone else) come on against anyone else’s second string or b) Mako is on the pitch. France on their day can be pretty destructive. But I think that England were also on that level when they picked the right mix - Marler, Sinckler and Kruis showed they could more than hold their own against anyone.

The questions are: who’s the right tight head lock to replace Kruis? And can Genge make the step up to being an international scrummager on a par with Marler (I think he can, but will need to change his training and like Marler will probably lose some carrying power as a result)?

Poorfour wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:Your talking about pre-rule change days there Cumbrian.
England have had a solid scrum for a long time - but not that destructive scrum of old.  
And thats not a reflection of front row - its the whole unit.  

I think that’s true to some degree - but scrums are less destructive across the board now. South Africa have one, especially when either a) their replacement props (who would be good enough to start for anyone else) come on against anyone else’s second string or b) Mako is on the pitch. France on their day can be pretty destructive. But I think that England were also on that level when they picked the right mix - Marler, Sinckler and Kruis showed they could more than hold their own against anyone.

The questions are: who’s the right tight head lock to replace Kruis? And can Genge make the step up to being an international scrummager on a par with Marler (I think he can, but will need to change his training and like Marler will probably lose some carrying power as a result)?

I can't see either of Genge's two head coaches telling him to sacrifice his carrying game for scrum power. Eddie has consistently picked Mako over Marler because of the difference it made to the attack. Genge was preferred to Marler at the weekend, it would have been interesting to see if that selection was consistent across all the games. Eddie wants props that can add something to the attack.

Borthwick at Tigers has got his S&C guru to get his pack super fit, the Polar Bear has gone the opposite way and has sacrificed some of his scrum power so he can tear around the pitch more. The sight of Dan Cole, yes Dan Cole leading a kick chase effectively nearly made me spit my beer out in shock. There's no chance Borthwick is going to tell Genge to ease off on the carrying and add some weight for pushing time.

What Genge needs to show is he's consistent at scrum time. Stable on the England put in and able to put a bit of pressure on at the right times. I honestly don't think Eddie is overly bothered about a dominant scrum, yes he wants a powerful scrum we aren't going to turn away from that but with all the talk over more attacking rugby it might mean we are a little less set piece orientated.

It feels like the lineout is more important to EJ then the scrum, but against the Boks we def want a scrum that can get our own ball away without giving pens, that's all that is needed really.

Also Australia's scrum was surprisingly powerful in the tri-nations, it took SA to task and won pens against Argentina easily. Their maul defence as well was very good, I don't think they'll be an easy beat there in any way.

Has any nation had a consistently dominant scrum since the hit was taken out?

As Poorfour says the Boks have an excellent scrum but much of their damage tends to come in the second half when they launch an entirely fresh front five out that would start for most teams. Even then Australia challenged them.

Argentina's traditional dominance there has disappeared some what since the hit went away.

Personally I think it's made the game better. The hit allowed teams to use usually illegal angles early in a game to 'paint a picture' for the ref that one side was getting hammered who would then get pinged out the game. The scrum now is of course still dependent on the refs interpretation but I really think that removing the hit and the blindside touch judge having input in reffing has helped a significant amount.

Andy Sheridan is usually the example I choose for scrum lottery with the hit. He was ludicrously powerful of course but at 6'5" wasn't really built to be a LH and didn't have the best technique. One week the ref would think his often experimental technique was fine and he'd destroy international opposition with his power. The next week the ref would decide that driving at a 45 degree angle wasn't OK and Big Ted would get subbed at half time by Sale.

stats say England's pack weighed in at 912kg vs Tonga and Australia weighed in at 910 vs Scotland. Not as heavy as I thought but then Hooper must be pretty light (101kg) and its the subs where Australia were huge. Tupou at 135kg and Skelton at 140.

[quote="Poorfour"]

propdavid_london wrote:

The questions are: who’s the right tight head lock to replace Kruis?

And there is the right question. The scrum is not just the front row...the locks are a key component. Are our locks good "scrum " locks?

Maybe thats why Hill is getting his start..?

lostinwales wrote:stats say England's pack weighed in at 912kg vs Tonga and Australia weighed in at 910 vs Scotland. Not as heavy as I thought but then Hooper must be pretty light (101kg) and its the subs where Australia were huge. Tupou at 135kg and Skelton at 140.

What would we have been with Billy and Mako, that must be lightweight compared to recent times, big difference between BV and Curry and Mako and Genge.

Perhaps dominant isn't quite the right word. I guess I get an uneasy feeling when Mako is scrummaging that I don't get when I see Marler in the team. I get that they scrum as a unit, but players still have different strengths and abilities. To be honest I think I've been scarred by the World Cup final, it was a difficult thing to watch/ stomach. Death by a thousand scrum penalties.

Cumbrian wrote:Perhaps dominant isn't quite the right word.  I guess I get an uneasy feeling when Mako is scrummaging that I don't  get when I see Marler in the team.  I get that they scrum as a unit, but players still have different strengths and abilities.  To be honest I think I've been scarred by the World Cup final, it was a difficult thing to watch/ stomach.  Death by a thousand scrum penalties.  

Looking at the stats on handling errors in that game as well. Double whammy.

Cumbrian wrote:Perhaps dominant isn't quite the right word.  I guess I get an uneasy feeling when Mako is scrummaging that I don't  get when I see Marler in the team.  I get that they scrum as a unit, but players still have different strengths and abilities.  To be honest I think I've been scarred by the World Cup final, it was a difficult thing to watch/ stomach.  Death by a thousand scrum penalties.  

Nah, was around 132 scrum penalties