England: Autumn Internationals

First topic message reminder :

England squad for autumn Tests:

Forwards: Jamie Blamire (Newcastle), Callum Chick (Newcastle), Jamie George (Saracens), Tom Curry (Sale), Trevor Davison (Newcastle), Nic Dolly (Leicester), Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins), Charlie Ewels (Bath), Ellis Genge (Leicester), Jonny Hill (Exeter), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton), Joe Marler (Harlequins), George Martin (Leicester), Sam Simmonds (Exeter), Kyle Sinckler (Bristol), Will Stuart (Bath), Sam Underhill (Bath)

Backs: Mark Atkinson (Gloucester), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Tommy Freeman (Northampton), George Furbank (Northampton), Max Malins (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester), Raffi Quirke (Sale), Adam Radwan (Newcastle), Harry Randall (Bristol), Henry Slade (Exeter), Marcus Smith (Harlequins), Freddie Steward (Leicester), Manu Tuilagi (Sale), Joe Marchant (Quins), Ben Youngs (Leicester)

In Positions:
1.Marler, Genge
2.George, Blamire, Dolly
3.Sinckler, Stuart, Davison
4.Itoje, Hill
5.Lawes, Ewels
6.Curry, Martin
7.Underhill, Ludlam
8.Dombrandt, Simmonds, Chick

9.Youngs, Randall, Quirke
10.Smith

11.May, Radwan
12.Farrell, Atkinson
13.Tuilagi, Slade
14.Freeman, Marchant
15.Steward, Malins, Furbank
-------------------------------------------------
England v Tonga - 6th November
England v Australia - 13th November
England v South Africa - 20th November

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Could be said Obano is a good scrummaging prop but obviously out injured.

I've never been consistently convinced by Obano in the tight to be honest. Seems hit or miss where he's either clearly on top or getting pinged. Absolutely munches people in the loose though.

I agree, Bath's scrum is a mess this season, he's not played well.

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Yes but Eddie has specifically chosen a loosehead to replace him that is as far from Marler as pretty much possible, except for the strong beard game.

You can't win a beard game against Joe Marler. Everyone knows that.

Eddie's chosen a prop who was already in the squad. I think you are reading too much into this.

That said, I don't think there's currently another EQP loosehead who's particularly close to Marler defensively or in scrummaging terms. If he's not available, then Eddie's pretty much forced to choose a player who's quite different.

Rodd was called up from outside the squad. Marler will be back in once his Covid issues are sorted don't get me wrong I just disagree with your assertion that Genge will be advised to sacrifice carrying for scrumming.

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Could be said Obano is a good scrummaging prop but obviously out injured.

I've never been consistently convinced by Obano in the tight to be honest. Seems hit or miss where he's either clearly on top or getting pinged. Absolutely munches people in the loose though.

Can't think of anyone else at loosehead who is outside of that as good at scummaging though. May be someone obvious im forgetting.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Could be said Obano is a good scrummaging prop but obviously out injured.

I've never been consistently convinced by Obano in the tight to be honest. Seems hit or miss where he's either clearly on top or getting pinged. Absolutely munches people in the loose though.

I agree, Bath's scrum is a mess this season, he's not played well.

Isn't Obano out for the season with another knee injury?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Could be said Obano is a good scrummaging prop but obviously out injured.

I've never been consistently convinced by Obano in the tight to be honest. Seems hit or miss where he's either clearly on top or getting pinged. Absolutely munches people in the loose though.

Can't think of anyone else at loosehead who is outside of that as good at scummaging though. May be someone obvious im forgetting.

West at Wasps is a decent scrummager but he's on their lengthy injury list. Moon at Chiefs is a good set piece player.

What as happend to louis Lynagh is he injured?
I would of liked Radwan on the bench.

majesticimperialman wrote:What as happend to louis Lynagh is he injured?
I would of liked Radwan on the bench.

Lynagh wasn't retained in the 34 man squad.

Sorry for being late to the party lads, but have been a bit occupied. For me, and the people I went to the Tonga match with, the sense was England were bedding some younger or different players with some order. Seemingly, a plan.

In brief: WTF is Eddie Jones doing with both Dombrandt and Simmonds?
Centre cover?

Bit of a strange selection from EJ, but that is also the weakest Aussie team for a long time. I suspect the scrum will be a massacre without their 2 top tightheads.

Can see s very comfortable England win here.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Could be said Obano is a good scrummaging prop but obviously out injured.

I've never been consistently convinced by Obano in the tight to be honest. Seems hit or miss where he's either clearly on top or getting pinged. Absolutely munches people in the loose though.

Can't think of anyone else at loosehead who is outside of that as good at scummaging though. May be someone obvious im forgetting.

Not obvious, but I'm surprised Will Goodrick-Clark doesn't seem to be on the radar at all. Has been huge for LI for the last year or so. Rock solid, both in the set piece and defensively.

Jones comments around Manu dealing with up and unders where he says there are other players in the side that can deal with them make me interested in how the defensive systems will change.

- Will it be a case of a system similar to how Ireland played with Kearney where they played with one winger and the fullback deep relying on both to cover a huge amount of ground? If so pressure on Steward and May.

- Might they set Manu deep to cover kicks but use him a bit like England have used Billy in past where if it's a contestable kick someone else goes up for it (Steward or May again) but if the kick's long then Manu can return it with a run up?

- Alternatively England have used Youngs as an option in the back three on defence a fair bit in the last 18 months. Perhaps that will be even more prominent with Manu then playing up in the defensive line as much as possible?

Whatever way I really don't like the selection as Radwan looks a star that should be getting game time before the RWC. Still the rugby dweeb in me that takes enjoyment from sitting alone analysing new defensive systems is interested in what they will go with to make such a bizarre backline work.

Margin_Walker wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Could be said Obano is a good scrummaging prop but obviously out injured.

I've never been consistently convinced by Obano in the tight to be honest. Seems hit or miss where he's either clearly on top or getting pinged. Absolutely munches people in the loose though.

Can't think of anyone else at loosehead who is outside of that as good at scummaging though. May be someone obvious im forgetting.

Not obvious, but I'm surprised Will Goodrick-Clark doesn't seem to be on the radar at all. Has been huge for LI for the last year or so. Rock solid, both in the set piece and defensively.

I also rate Goodrick-Clarke. Rodd and him are at a similar Premiership experience level in that it's their second season as established players. My guess would be the Goodrick-Clarke isn't that far behind the chasing pack of Obano, West (was selected ahead of Rodd before injury) and Rodd.

I really rate Rodd but realistically there are three guys ruled out through various means in Marler, Obano and West then Mako in the cold on top of that to have facilitated a debut. I hope he goes well but do have question marks over his scrummaging as I would for most props his age. I think Rodd's breakdown work might be what has set him apart. None of our other props offer much threat over the ball.

Talking LI props, I think Hoskins is a terrific TH so I'm delighted for him that he's set for a test debut as well. He's been so consistent for LI over a good few years now.

I have to wonder what Simmonds and Dombrandt are thinking about this.

For that matter, in the light of a new day (though the sun is not quite up), I am still wondering what I think of this.

Certainly this will not be a full strength Aussie side considering their front row and Beale, who is about 100 years old. I think it will be must watch tv.

Goodrick-Clark hasn't really jumped to mind for England. London Irish players never get picked do they!

king_carlos wrote:Jones comments around Manu dealing with up and unders where he says there are other players in the side that can deal with them make me interested in how the defensive systems will change.

- Will it be a case of a system similar to how Ireland played with Kearney where they played with one winger and the fullback deep relying on both to cover a huge amount of ground? If so pressure on Steward and May.

- Might they set Manu deep to cover kicks but use him a bit like England have used Billy in past where if it's a contestable kick someone else goes up for it (Steward or May again) but if the kick's long then Manu can return it with a run up?

- Alternatively England have used Youngs as an option in the back three on defence a fair bit in the last 18 months. Perhaps that will be even more prominent with Manu then playing up in the defensive line as much as possible?

Whatever way I really don't like the selection as Radwan looks a star that should be getting game time before the RWC. Still the rugby dweeb in me that takes enjoyment from sitting alone analysing new defensive systems is interested in what they will go with to make such a bizarre backline work.

I suspect that they'll defend with a midfield of Farrell/Slade/Manu and Smith will drop into the backfield. Opens up Smith to use his kicking game and counter attacking skills. Given Steward is more than capable of taking the high balls and likes an offload their could be lots of possibilities there.

In attack obviously Smith will be at 10 and we'll effectively play with three centres.

Could also see Slade dropping back given he's played full back.

Cross field kicks are the bit that worries me.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Goodrick-Clark hasn't really jumped to mind for England. London Irish players never get picked do they!

Very rarely. It's been a long time since a LI player was last capped for England. Had the bizarre situation in the summer where the one retained player in the training squad was Munya. Decent prospect, but at the moment wouldn't get in a full strength 23 for his club.

I think another coach would have a guy like Hassell-Collins involved, there's not a lot more he can do for his club week in week out. Comes down to whether the guy in charge rates you though at the end of the day

king_carlos wrote:
I also rate Goodrick-Clarke. Rodd and him are at a similar Premiership experience level in that it's their second season as established players. My guess would be the Goodrick-Clarke isn't that far behind the chasing pack of Obano, West (was selected ahead of Rodd before injury) and Rodd.

I really rate Rodd but realistically there are three guys ruled out through various means in Marler, Obano and West then Mako in the cold on top of that to have facilitated a debut. I hope he goes well but do have question marks over his scrummaging as I would for most props his age. I think Rodd's breakdown work might be what has set him apart. None of our other props offer much threat over the ball.

Talking LI props, I think Hoskins is a terrific TH so I'm delighted for him that he's set for a test debut as well. He's been so consistent for LI over a good few years now.

The Hoskins story is brilliant. Chuffed for the guy.

Margin_Walker wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Goodrick-Clark hasn't really jumped to mind for England. London Irish players never get picked do they!

Very rarely. It's been a long time since a LI player was last capped for England. Had the bizarre situation in the summer where the one retained player in the training squad was Munya. Decent prospect, but at the moment wouldn't get in a full strength 23 for his club.

I think another coach would have a guy like Hassell-Collins involved, there's not a lot more he can do for his club week in week out. Comes down to whether the guy in charge rates you though at the end of the day

Really like Haskell-Collins and would have had him in my squad. Like the look of Loader too tbf.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Could also see Slade dropping back given he's played full back.

Cross field kicks are the bit that worries me.

Yeah it's placing a lot of reliance on Steward to cover isn't it. I'm sure JOC is practising his low trajectory crossfield kicks ready to get in behind Manu and Slade. Try and isolate the covering Steward with the ball in hand.

Sugar Genge has tested positive for covid and is isolating.

Ouch. Scrum time could suddenly get very interesting for the Aussies.

Davidson covering the bench and Rodd starts....so Geordie and Pooly is he any good there?

feck feck feck

I'm going to look on the bright side and say that Rodd will be exceptional on debut. *with everything crossed*

Must be a worry that another prop injury means we can only name a reduced bench too.

What does that say to Davison aswell....in the squad all the time then leaped over by a newbie in the squad???

No 7&1/2 wrote:Sugar Genge has tested positive for covid and is isolating.

Oh nads. Eddie swallow your pride and recall Mako quick. Damn was hoping this was the set of international games that Genge really took hold of and cemented his position as an international loosehead rather than just a top class club loosehead.

Ah Davison is actually in as a TH.

England having no luck with loosehead props at the moment. With the two lads isolating, Tom West and Beno Obano injured, I wonder if Mako has a voodoo doll somewhere?

Mind you, it speaks well of our depth that we are down to '5th choice' and we can still put out a world cup finalist...

No 7&1/2 wrote:Davidson covering the bench and Rodd starts....so Geordie and Pooly is he any good there?

Has done really well in the set piece recently. Can jump between sides pretty well, been at TH lately though.

I think Int rugby is a step too far for him personally, but hope he shows up well.

Apparently Mako is on holiday.

Probably find that due to covid protocols Eddie couldn't call up anyone else. That's my guess anyway.

king_carlos wrote:Isn't Obano out for the season with another knee injury?

Supposedly it's only for a month and he should be back at the end of November - it's less bad than they feared. But it's a measure of how bad their scrummaging resources are that he tried to play on for 10 minutes after being injured, including at least one scrum.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Davidson covering the bench and Rodd starts....so Geordie and Pooly is he any good there?

Has done really well in the set piece recently. Can jump between sides pretty well, been at TH lately though.

I think Int rugby is a step too far for him personally, but hope he shows up well.

Apparently Mako is on holiday.

Trev will be fine in the scrum, but will hit every ruck Eddie demands of him and will tackle everything close in. Hes a strong boy.

I do agree with Sgt...he wont have a long international career when everyone is fit (it surprised me when he was initially called up and when he wsas kept on) ....but at the moment....he certainly wont let anyone down.

Mr Bounce wrote:Probably find that due to covid protocols Eddie couldn't call up anyone else. That's my guess anyway.

It's also likely to be a question of familiarity with the game plan. At this stage it would be really difficult to drop someone in from outside the camp and have them able to be in the right place at the right time with only a day and a half's training.

Davidson would probably get on with Blamire as well should he be used so some familiarity there. I'm still positive we should get a good win despite the quibbles and withdrawals though. SA next week we really do need our first choice props fit and firing though and that looks unlikely now.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Davidson covering the bench and Rodd starts....so Geordie and Pooly is he any good there?

Has done really well in the set piece recently. Can jump between sides pretty well, been at TH lately though.

I think Int rugby is a step too far for him personally, but hope he shows up well.

Apparently Mako is on holiday.

I've been wondering how much of a factor that is. RWC squads usually only have room to carry 5 props so you ideally need someone to cover both sides which very few do these days.

Not very common in the age of specialization. And somehow I get the feeling things can still happen between now and the match.

If we put scrums to the side for the moment how do we feel about the team? Still can’t wrap my head around the back line…..

doctor_grey wrote:Not very common in the age of specialization.  And somehow I get the feeling things can still happen between now and the match.

If we put scrums to the side for the moment how do we feel about the team?  Still can’t wrap my head around the back line…..

Either May gets a couple of tries or we spend a frustrating afternoon with Farrell looking like a spare part. Long term those might be the best results. Worst result is that with that back row and no Genge we have no running threat in the forwards and Smith, paying the price for having cr@p to work with, gets subbed just at the time when we bring the impact players on.

doctor_grey wrote:Not very common in the age of specialization.  And somehow I get the feeling things can still happen between now and the match.

If we put scrums to the side for the moment how do we feel about the team?  Still can’t wrap my head around the back line…..

The question is whether the team can wrap their heads around the backline. There's no question that it's a very exciting group with Farrell to provide a bit of solidity and release the pressure when required. The question is whether they will be able to get moving in a way that enables Smith to make the most of them.

If what we see is a lot of fluidity in terms of 12-14 rearranging themselves to present options, and committing to lines that gives defences and Smith a choice, then I think it could be very effective. If it becomes a very rigid pattern then it won't work.

It does seem a shame we can't play the traditional Wallabies/England game of 'our Tongans are bigger than your Tongans'

I would not be surprised to see in open play Tuilagi drifts inside making the midfield a crowded place.  A bit different than a winger looking for work.  
On the other side of the ball, I think the Wallabies will attack down Tuilagi’s line, either running or kicking.  Not that he can’t defend.  But positioning support, and so on are different.  
Also still wonder how Simmonds and Dombrandt will be used.  Especially if there are a couple of injuries.

Experimental backline plus not enough back subs to change things if it is not working is certainly a brave strategy

Eddie Jones in the BBC wrote: "We might not need to worry too much about the high ball against Australia. If they do kick we have other blokes who are really good under the high ball."

To the point previously made about Smith perhaps hanging back or covering the off wing on defense to handle kicks?

Not for nothing, but if I were the Wallabies, I would bomb his side with kicks.

doctor_grey wrote:

Eddie Jones in the BBC wrote: "We might not need to worry too much about the high ball against Australia. If they do kick we have other blokes who are really good under the high ball."

To the point previously made about Smith perhaps hanging back or covering the off wing on defense to handle kicks?

Not for nothing, but if I were the Wallabies, I would bomb his side with kicks.

They'll have to get those kicks right if they do. Get it wrong and give it too much air and Steward will mop it up. Kick with an inadequate chase and Smith will counter attack and there are few better at launching counter attacks. Same with if they try to kick it over Manu, you don't want to get that wrong.

They might live to regret it if they do. Unless they are on the money with both the kick and the chase, he's quite capable of creating something out of a nothing kick

Good news is there weren't any further positive tests this morning.

Jumping ahead beyond todays game the unsurprising lessons are do not knock the ball on. And pray our props are all available. Genge will definitely be out won't he and marler looks like he'll be around. Let's hope Rodd has a great day today.

Rodd is up against a very experienced loosehead in Slipper. Who will be packing down at tighthead. It'll be an interesting contest, but it may come down to who can beat get on the side of the ref

So will Jamie make it 6 from 4?