England: Autumn Internationals

First topic message reminder :

England squad for autumn Tests:

Forwards: Jamie Blamire (Newcastle), Callum Chick (Newcastle), Jamie George (Saracens), Tom Curry (Sale), Trevor Davison (Newcastle), Nic Dolly (Leicester), Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins), Charlie Ewels (Bath), Ellis Genge (Leicester), Jonny Hill (Exeter), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton), Joe Marler (Harlequins), George Martin (Leicester), Sam Simmonds (Exeter), Kyle Sinckler (Bristol), Will Stuart (Bath), Sam Underhill (Bath)

Backs: Mark Atkinson (Gloucester), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Tommy Freeman (Northampton), George Furbank (Northampton), Max Malins (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester), Raffi Quirke (Sale), Adam Radwan (Newcastle), Harry Randall (Bristol), Henry Slade (Exeter), Marcus Smith (Harlequins), Freddie Steward (Leicester), Manu Tuilagi (Sale), Joe Marchant (Quins), Ben Youngs (Leicester)

In Positions:
1.Marler, Genge
2.George, Blamire, Dolly
3.Sinckler, Stuart, Davison
4.Itoje, Hill
5.Lawes, Ewels
6.Curry, Martin
7.Underhill, Ludlam
8.Dombrandt, Simmonds, Chick

9.Youngs, Randall, Quirke
10.Smith

11.May, Radwan
12.Farrell, Atkinson
13.Tuilagi, Slade
14.Freeman, Marchant
15.Steward, Malins, Furbank
-------------------------------------------------
England v Tonga - 6th November
England v Australia - 13th November
England v South Africa - 20th November

I do reckon we should be looking to beat SA this weekend.

I'd like to see Radwan come in but reckon we will see Malins take a wing position. A back 3 of him, May and Steward should then take SA's kicking out of the equation. Was so easy for them previously to just ask Daly for a good field position for their scrums! there's clearly some question marks over our scrum again with the withdrawals though and with George going off I would prefer him being back rather than go in with Blamire and Dolly despite their good form.

May, Steward and Malins would make a very safe back three, I would want to exploit Malins versatility and put Radwan on the bench though, keeps something different to try if things are going wrong.

Three very good catchers and returners of the high ball who are also adept at coming into the line at serious pace (well two at serious pace). What is Radwans kicking like, didn't see much against Tonga?

He cant kick....

Radwan doesn't need to kick! He's actually good under the high ball for a smallish guy.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Radwan doesn't need to kick! He's actually good under the high ball for a smallish guy.

Defensively hes excellent...takes the high ball, tackles and is quite fearless.....

But he cant kick.

Probably why he was dropped then.

I see Nigel Owens has backed the thought that Aus got away without getting more yellows at the weekend, though it's behind a pay wall. Really needed to mention that more and ask the question of Peyper. Wonder if out captains are still being told not to bug refs much?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Probably why he was dropped then.

I see Nigel Owens has backed the thought that Aus got away without getting more yellows at the weekend, though it's behind a pay wall. Really needed to mention that more and ask the question of Peyper. Wonder if out captains are still being told not to bug refs much?

Why? is that an essential skill now?

Who knows what Jones wants in his positionless team. I don't see any other weaknesses though. Perhaps it was his pass to no one after he made that break down the wing?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Probably why he was dropped then.

I see Nigel Owens has backed the thought that Aus got away without getting more yellows at the weekend, though it's behind a pay wall. Really needed to mention that more and ask the question of Peyper. Wonder if out captains are still being told not to bug refs much?

Why? is that an essential skill now?

It depends on the make up of the back line; it was noticeable that Slade was patrolling the back field rather than Tuilagi offering another kicking option. If you take Slade out the team you then need another kicking option so Malins is the obvious choice.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Who knows what Jones wants in his positionless team. I don't see any other weaknesses though.  Perhaps it was his pass to no one after he made that break down the wing?

Very Possibly....

Maybe Farrell will be dropped for a school boy level tackle...or giving Slade a hospital pass...
Maybe Slade will be dropped for continuously running diagonally, ball in hand and shutting down all the space for those outside him, instead of running straight.

i doubt it though.

I'd say they are more established players however. God Slade does my head in though. There were green shoots against Tonga in the way he actually made good decisions in wider channels. Saturday though back to normal. I have read tonnes of praise for him so far this Autumn but he's so frustrating to me wearing an England shirt. Really can't call the team against SA. I know what I'd go with, but I'm not sure I'd even be able to guess which positions Jones is considering.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd say they are more established players however. God Slade does my head in though. There were green shoots against Tonga in the way he actually made good decisions in wider channels. Saturday though back to normal. I have read tonnes of praise for him so far this Autumn but he's so frustrating to me wearing an England shirt. Really can't call the team against SA. I know what I'd go with, but I'm not sure I'd even be able to guess which positions Jones is considering.

Very true.

Yeah Slade is incredibly frustrating. He is a very talented guy, but just makes bad decisions at this level. He's almost too carefree and cavalier at times...

The greats of the games make the easy decisions. A quick simple pass instead of some flamboyant no look over the head pass, or straighten the line hold the defender, then pop to the flyer outside you, instead of going on some mazy run cluttering up all the space....

If we could merge Farrell and Slade, we'd have a decent 12....

Slade did a lot of good on Saturday- but there were the two crabbing runs which were very obvious.

It will be interesting to see who gets selected. George must be very questionable at this point

As much of a Falcon fan as i am...starting Blamire v the Boks is a baptism of fire.

I have no fear of his physicality in any area...its his lineout im concerned with ...and the boks will pressure him.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Probably why he was dropped then.

I see Nigel Owens has backed the thought that Aus got away without getting more yellows at the weekend, though it's behind a pay wall. Really needed to mention that more and ask the question of Peyper. Wonder if out captains are still being told not to bug refs much?

Why? is that an essential skill now?

It would be quite ironic if Radwan was dropped for lacking kicking and then selected Tuilagi who can't kick or catch!

I find Radwan's dropping a bit odd tbh, surely he's worth a spot on the bench were he can run at tired defences. Maybe it's something in training EJ doesn't like?

I think Malins will be on the wing over Radwan....

Eddie likes as many playmakers as possible in the backs.....a very Aussie trait...numbers mean nothing. And Malins whilst not electric...is still pretty quick so ticks all the boxes..

All playmakers with May and Manu the "strike / game breaker" players so to speak...

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Probably why he was dropped then.

I see Nigel Owens has backed the thought that Aus got away without getting more yellows at the weekend, though it's behind a pay wall. Really needed to mention that more and ask the question of Peyper. Wonder if out captains are still being told not to bug refs much?

Why? is that an essential skill now?

It would be quite ironic if Radwan was dropped for lacking kicking and then selected Tuilagi who can't kick or catch!

I find Radwan's dropping a bit odd tbh, surely he's worth a spot on the bench were he can run at tired defences. Maybe it's something in training EJ doesn't like?

I think I'm right in saying that Eddie has used out and out wings on the bench very little. Maybe just a versatility thing with the positions they cover?

As said during the game I did really like Manu being used to return kicks as some back rows often do and Billy has done to good effect before for England. Having Manu with a run up like that immediately drew the chasers in, causing the defence to 'bunch' around the ensuing ruck and produced quick ball. It requires clever support play from the forwards clearing though as a good jackaler could target that obviously coming breakdown if the support isn't immediate.

I see no reason why Manu can't be used like that occasionally whilst playing centre though. Clearly the defence is used to adjusting to dropping a defender back given Billy did it frequently. It means a change in system but Manu on the wing meant that anyway. Slade seemed to spend a decent amount of time in the back field during the second half for instance.

With only 2 backs on the bench it made sense to use Malins, who is a very good wing in his own right and can cover multiple positions.

Radwan has to be part of things moving forward, the only question is when (and the answer probably is not going to please us).

Just saw Jamie George and Owen Farrell are out due to injury….

Just seen Farrell out of SA game. any one think Ford will be called up?

I like Harry Elrington. Seems a nice guy and decent in the loose, but having seen them both play a lot, I've no idea how he got called up ahead of Goodrick Clark.

doctor_grey wrote:Just saw Jamie George and Owen Farrell are out due to injury….

Eek on George at least.

Blamire to start - which is OK but he's not yet totally reliable on line outs like George is (and LCD has learnt to be). I am assuming its likely to be Singleton on the bench then. Too much to expect Dolly to start his international career (if he has one) against the SA bomb squad.

Given he won't have trained I am assuming Marler will be on the bench if he's selected, and could be a great option to help deal with the replacement SA front row.

Subs and back row balance must still be up in the air but the backs pretty much sort themselves. Love to see Radwan start with Malins on the bench but won't be upset if Malins starts.

lostinwales wrote:Blamire to start - which is OK but he's not yet totally reliable on line outs like George is (and LCD has learnt to be). I am assuming its likely to be Singleton on the bench then. Too much to expect Dolly to start his international career (if he has one) against the SA bomb squad.

Given he won't have trained I am assuming Marler will be on the bench if he's selected, and could be a great option to help deal with the replacement SA front row.

Subs and back row balance must still be up in the air but the backs pretty much sort themselves. Love to see Radwan start with Malins on the bench but won't be upset if Malins starts.

You've forgotten this is Jones. So, Dolly to start. Marchant to come in at 13 and Tuilagi to start right wing.

lostinwales wrote:Blamire to start - which is OK but he's not yet totally reliable on line outs like George is (and LCD has learnt to be). I am assuming its likely to be Singleton on the bench then. Too much to expect Dolly to start his international career (if he has one) against the SA bomb squad.

Given he won't have trained I am assuming Marler will be on the bench if he's selected, and could be a great option to help deal with the replacement SA front row.

Subs and back row balance must still be up in the air but the backs pretty much sort themselves. Love to see Radwan start with Malins on the bench but won't be upset if Malins starts.

Be surprised if Marler doesn't start, assuming he's not actually been ill with Covid, given we are otherwise down to about 5th choice.

As for the backs, I'm sure Eddie will manage to disappoint and keep Manu on the wing, bring in Atkinson and probably find a way of dropping Smith.

So hopefully something like:
1 - Marler
2 - Blamire
3 - Sinkler
4 - Itoje
5 - Hill / Lawes
6 - Curry
7 - Underhill
8 - Dombrandt

9 - Youngs
10 - Smith
11 - May
12 - Tuillagi
13 - Slade
14 - Radwan / Mallins
15 - Steward

Everyone playing their specialist position and a good balance of power and pace.
In Farrell's absence, Lawes captained against Tonga - same again, or time to give Itoje the responsibility?

Marchant at 10 surely.

I made the mistake of looking at a Ruck article about who 'experts' viewed as performing well on Saturday or not. It was the kind of article that would probably claim Underhill played badly because his kicking game was poor.

lostinwales wrote:I made the mistake of looking at a Ruck article about who 'experts' viewed as performing well on Saturday or not. It was the kind of article that would probably claim Underhill played badly because his kicking game was poor.

Intrigued. Going to have to go looking.

dummy_half wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Blamire to start - which is OK but he's not yet totally reliable on line outs like George is (and LCD has learnt to be). I am assuming its likely to be Singleton on the bench then. Too much to expect Dolly to start his international career (if he has one) against the SA bomb squad.

Given he won't have trained I am assuming Marler will be on the bench if he's selected, and could be a great option to help deal with the replacement SA front row.

Subs and back row balance must still be up in the air but the backs pretty much sort themselves. Love to see Radwan start with Malins on the bench but won't be upset if Malins starts.

Be surprised if Marler doesn't start, assuming he's not actually been ill with Covid, given we are otherwise down to about 5th choice.

As for the backs, I'm sure Eddie will manage to disappoint and keep Manu on the wing, bring in Atkinson and probably find a way of dropping Smith.

So hopefully something like:
1 - Marler
2 - Blamire
3 - Sinkler
4 - Itoje
5 - Hill / Lawes
6 - Curry
7 - Underhill
8 - Dombrandt

9 - Youngs
10 - Smith
11 - May
12 - Tuillagi
13 - Slade
14 - Radwan / Mallins
15 - Steward

Everyone playing their specialist position and a good balance of power and pace.
In Farrell's absence, Lawes captained against Tonga - same again, or time to give Itoje the responsibility?

EJ doesn't seem to see Itoje as captain material. Either that or he just likes to let him do what he does without distraction (and on that front who are we to disagree?). Lawes most likely to captain. I think the backrow should be Lawes/ Curry/ Dombrandt with Underhill on the bench. If he's not fully fit then Simmonds or Ludlam to bench would be fine.

Hill did good vs Australia and more of the same will be expected vs SA.

Yeah, Hill probably had his best game for England. Would be surprised to see him drop out, but you never know.

Since captaining their AWC winning team in his first season in senior Itoje has actually captained very little with Sarries. It might be something as simple as Itoje himself telling coaches he prefers to just get on with playing.

Just noticed that Singleton has been called up as well. I wonder if he might come onto the bench ahead of Dolly?

I like Dolly, he's been terrific as Tigers having had to step up from expected 4th choice to starting most games. His scrummaging isn't a strong point though. It's been noticeable that he's struggled to get the strike a few times despite usually having strong scrummaging props either side of him. Albeit Tigers locks aren't the most powerful at scrum time. I'd be pretty worried with him against Marx and Malherbe in the second half.

I wouldn't be surprised if Blamire is still on rhe bench.

I think Jones will want a starter with a reliable throw....

I guess how Blamires throws go in training...

GeordieFalcon wrote:

yappysnap wrote:
Curry has to move to flanker or bench.
For the next game i'd have

20. Curry

Bench our best player....? Really?

Was he our best player? I thought Underhill and Lawes both played equally well tbh, i'd happily take Curry at 7 and Underhill at 6 with Lawes on the bench though. I just don't think we're getting the best from Curry or the backrow with him at 8 and we can't have two 8's on the bench again surely.

majesticimperialman wrote:Just seen Farrell out of SA game. any one think Ford will be called up?

Doubt it. Would mean admitting he was wrong and overlooked the form player in the league currently on favour of utility players unnecessarily. He'll shove Furbank on the bank and hope he doesn't need to use him.

Smiths in the team though?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Smiths in the team though?

No Ford means going in with Malins or Furbank as reserve 10 on the bench though. Which isn't ideal against the Boks.

Please nobody say Slade. He hasn't played 10 since 2016.

No Ford also means one goal kicker in the entire training squad. As seen against Tonga Slade is rubbish from the tee. Steward can take a pot shot from his own half similar to Hogg but nothing more than that. Malins has kicked 23 penalties and 17 conversion in his senior career. Furbank has kicked 2 pens and 2 conversion in his career.

I rate Smith but we are now one injury from having no fly-halves or goal kickers in the squad.

More the statement that its a mistake to not take 3 fly halfs in to start with. Very rarely have we ever done so under Jones similar to the situation at scrum half. Or hooker for that matter. Its a bit of an oddity at 2 and 9 I'm this squad.

And Smith is by a distance the form 10.

So who is the back up 10 to smith? i Know Slade can kick goal's but who is the out and out stand by 10? i have no idea my self.

majesticimperialman wrote:So who is the back up 10 to smith? i Know Slade can kick goal's but who is the out and out stand by 10? i have no idea my self.

Same person who did against Tonga.

3 part time FH in the squad, Malins Furbank and Slade, although nobody wants to see Slade there. Malins was injured vs Tonga so Furbank played. It will (should) be Malins as back up.

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Smiths in the team though?

No Ford means going in with Malins or Furbank as reserve 10 on the bench though. Which isn't ideal against the Boks.

Please nobody say Slade. He hasn't played 10 since 2016.

No Ford also means one goal kicker in the entire training squad. As seen against Tonga Slade is rubbish from the tee. Steward can take a pot shot from his own half similar to Hogg but nothing more than that. Malins has kicked 23 penalties and 17 conversion in his senior career. Furbank has kicked 2 pens and 2 conversion in his career.

I rate Smith but we are now one injury from having no fly-halves or goal kickers in the squad.

Slade

Slade's last start at 10 - 2016/17 season.

Other fly-halves with starts at 10 as recently as 2016: Charlie Hodgson and Andy Goode

king_carlos wrote:Other fly-halves with starts at 10 as recently as 2016: Charlie Hodgson and Andy Goode

Andy Goode will be at Twickenham, and is only 41. He can cover prop these days too.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Smiths in the team though?

As if the Boks needed more of an excuse to rough up the young 10. No recognised back up at flyhalf against one of the best controlling teams in World Rugby. They can force Smith into his shell or off the field we don't have anything close to a like for like option.

I don't mind Malins or Slade covering 10 tbh. It's a gamble obviously but it'll be a good indicator of who could potentially go as 3rd option to a WC.

Rugby Fan wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Other fly-halves with starts at 10 as recently as 2016: Charlie Hodgson and Andy Goode

Andy Goode will be at Twickenham, and is only 41. He can cover prop these days too.

Every team needs a prop that can kick.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Smiths in the team though?

As if the Boks needed more of an excuse to rough up the young 10. No recognised back up at flyhalf against one of the best controlling teams in World Rugby. They can force Smith into his shell or off the field we don't have anything close to a like for like option.

I agree we don't.

Didn't Sinckler start as a 10 as a junior?

Definitely played full back as well. Just hoping he looks out for Itoje this time.