England Autumn Internationals - MARK II

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England squad for autumn Tests:

Forwards: Jamie Blamire (Newcastle), Callum Chick (Newcastle), Jamie George (Saracens), Tom Curry (Sale), Trevor Davison (Newcastle), Nic Dolly (Leicester), Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins), Charlie Ewels (Bath), Ellis Genge (Leicester), Jonny Hill (Exeter), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton), Joe Marler (Harlequins), George Martin (Leicester), Sam Simmonds (Exeter), Kyle Sinckler (Bristol), Will Stuart (Bath), Sam Underhill (Bath)

Backs: Mark Atkinson (Gloucester), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Tommy Freeman (Northampton), George Furbank (Northampton), Max Malins (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester), Raffi Quirke (Sale), Adam Radwan (Newcastle), Harry Randall (Bristol), Henry Slade (Exeter), Marcus Smith (Harlequins), Freddie Steward (Leicester), Manu Tuilagi (Sale), Joe Marchant (Quins), Ben Youngs (Leicester)

In Positions:
1.Marler, Genge
2.George, Blamire, Dolly
3.Sinckler, Stuart, Davison
4.Itoje, Hill
5.Lawes, Ewels
6.Curry, Martin
7.Underhill, Ludlam
8.Dombrandt, Simmonds, Chick

9.Youngs, Randall, Quirke
10.Smith

11.May, Radwan
12.Farrell, Atkinson
13.Tuilagi, Slade
14.Freeman, Marchant
15.Steward, Malins, Furbank
-------------------------------------------------
England v Tonga - 6th November
England v Australia - 13th November
England v South Africa - 20th November

yappysnap wrote:

king_carlos wrote:The pack did excellently I thought when factoring in multiple unavailable players in several positions.

LH - Marler and Genge both hit by covid
Hooker - LCD and George injured
Lock - Launchbury injured and Kruis in Japan
Back row - Willis

If available I'd expect all those players to feature ahead of guys who played in the Autumn.

Some wouldn't count Kruis but I'd put good money on him being straight back in the squad next season if he's in the Premiership. When talking about the squad going forward I think he's a player to still consider. If he signs with a Premiership side for next season he could be a perfect player to consider for the summer tour to Australia even. The Japan season finishes in May so if fit he'd be in shape for July. If Itoje and/or Lawes need a break after the Lions tour being able to bring in another test Lion with 45 caps is fairly ideal.

The only real position of concern for me in the pack is TH where I think there's a huge drop after Sinckler.

If it means that Ewells finally gets jetisoned then it's a good thing. Kruis is quality really anyway but we don't know how he'll go after the step down in rugby in Japan.

Malcolm Marx absolutely mulching most our forwards after coming off the bench suggests the lighter workload hasn't hurt him too much!

That's true. I was just thinking some of the NZ players don't appear better for their stints in Japan, to my (untrained) eye they've looked off the pace. But that could also be the team they've come back to.

Retallick looked below his best but I think he's still on the long road back after injury and sabbatical to be fair. He played no international rugby in 2020 and only managed a handful of club games. He turned 30 this year, missed all of 2020 and has still played 90 tests with 75 of them starts. It's not surprising his body is struggling really! Hopefully he can get back to where he was.

I genuinely thought TJ looked the best I've ever seen him this year. I rate Aaron Smith incredibly highly but TJ must be pushing him close on merit now which is pretty unbelievable.

Beaden looked good as ever at what he's good at. The ABs only lost one game he played this year which was the narrow loss to the Boks in Australia. I still don't think Foster has got the tactics around Barrett right. Between Carter and Cruden the ABs had a very different style of fly-half for a long time.

Their main issue is the back row though. Ardie is exceptional at 7 or 8 but other than that they're struggling compared to the past. Cane hasn't been the same since the neck injury. Then there's a lot of guys in their mid-twenties with 10 to 20 caps who have excelled in Super Rugby but not grabbed a ABs shirt.

Finding a locked on centre partnership would help as well but Lienert-Brown plus one of Havili or Ioane can still tear just about any defence to ribbons when combined with their half-back and back three options.

They still won the RC with 5 wins from 6 despite only playing one match at home due to covid. If someone like Sototu can settle at 8 with Ardie at 7 to solve the back row issues then I can see the pieces falling together for them pretty quickly.

Anyone know when the 6N squads are announced?

king_carlos wrote:Retallick looked below his best but I think he's still on the long road back after injury and sabbatical to be fair. He played no international rugby in 2020 and only managed a handful of club games. He turned 30 this year, missed all of 2020 and has still played 90 tests with 75 of them starts. It's not surprising his body is struggling really! Hopefully he can get back to where he was.

I genuinely thought TJ looked the best I've ever seen him this year. I rate Aaron Smith incredibly highly but TJ must be pushing him close on merit now which is pretty unbelievable.

Beaden looked good as ever at what he's good at. The ABs only lost one game he played this year which was the narrow loss to the Boks in Australia. I still don't think Foster has got the tactics around Barrett right. Between Carter and Cruden the ABs had a very different style of fly-half for a long time.

Their main issue is the back row though. Ardie is exceptional at 7 or 8 but other than that they're struggling compared to the past. Cane hasn't been the same since the neck injury. Then there's a lot of guys in their mid-twenties with 10 to 20 caps who have excelled in Super Rugby but not grabbed a ABs shirt.

Finding a locked on centre partnership would help as well but Lienert-Brown plus one of Havili or Ioane can still tear just about any defence to ribbons when combined with their half-back and back three options.

They still won the RC with 5 wins from 6 despite only playing one match at home due to covid. If someone like Sototu can settle at 8 with Ardie at 7 to solve the back row issues then I can see the pieces falling together for them pretty quickly.

You're totally right with that. B Barrett has looked a bit off the pace to me but I think a lot of that is the guys around him and the AB's only real tactic is 'give it to Barrett and see' which still works a lot of the time! Retallick was the main one I was thinking of, I just don't think the Japanese league is physical enough to keep players (especially forwards) up to scratch for test rugby and we could find Kruis is physically fit but well off the pace. Of course Saracens is probably the best club in the league for getting players ready for action so he'll be in safe hands if he's with them.

Next year's AI list now in

Argentina
Japan
AB's
SA on the 26th November

Not making it easy for ourselves that's for sure

Jones just appeared on The Good, Bad, Rugby Podcast, with Mike Tindall and Alex Payne.

Asked about trends in the game, he said it's possible — he's not sure yet — that rugby is becoming a young man's sport. Long experience may bring fewer benefits, so you might be better going with youth rather than experience in selection. He says something similar happened in football, so it's not out of question it could happen in rugby too.

Nice set of fixtures that.

Rugby Fan wrote:Jones just appeared on The Good, Bad, Rugby Podcast, with Mike Tindall and Alex Payne.

Asked about trends in the game, he said it's possible — he's not sure yet — that rugby is becoming a young man's sport. Long experience may bring fewer benefits, so you might be better going with youth rather than experience in selection. He says something similar happened in football, so it's not out of question it could happen in rugby too.

New Zealand have done that with their wingers for years. Pick them young, get a torrent of tries from them at their peak and move them on ruthlessly when their form lets up.

Lomu, Rokocoko and Savea were last capped at 27. Howlett at 29. All players who were truly exceptional at their peaks.

Guys that cover fullback such as Smith and Dagg seem to get a little bit more slack but the ABs have been ruthless with their wingers in the pro era.

lostinwales wrote:Next year's AI list now in

Argentina
Japan
AB's
SA on the 26th November

Not making it easy for ourselves that's for sure

Not easy for sure! That's like a RWC in just 4 weeks.
On the other hand, I think if we want to be the best, we have to beat the best. Can't wait already.

doctor_grey wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Next year's AI list now in

Argentina
Japan
AB's
SA on the 26th November

Not making it easy for ourselves that's for sure

Not easy for sure!  That's like a RWC in just 4 weeks.  
On the other hand, I think if we want to be the best, we have to beat the best.  Can't wait already.  

That is probably the plan

Unfortunately the SA game will fall outside the window so they won't have their full team out.

lostinwales wrote:Next year's AI list now in

Argentina
Japan
AB's
SA on the 26th November

Not making it easy for ourselves that's for sure

Routine 4 wins there I reckon.

The EPS agreement is that once a RWC cycle England have a 4th AI so England will get their players for 5 weeks instead of the usual 4.

SA will be missing at least their Premiership players (no way the SARU will be able to afford a release agreement) and likely French ones as well unless individuals have clauses. The Japan season doesn't interfere so I'd guess Japan based players will be released.

king_carlos wrote:The EPS agreement is that once a RWC cycle England have a 4th AI so England will get their players for 5 weeks instead of the usual 4.

SA will be missing at least their Premiership players (no way the SARU will be able to afford a release agreement) and likely French ones as well unless individuals have clauses. The Japan season doesn't interfere so I'd guess Japan based players will be released.

I hope you are wrong about the availability of the SA players because that would be a shame and have no real value to anyone.  There is no point to play the match unless it is against a full strength Springbok team.  For both teams. I would rather have a Barbarians match (they have to be able to pull one off one of there years!).

doctor_grey wrote:

king_carlos wrote:The EPS agreement is that once a RWC cycle England have a 4th AI so England will get their players for 5 weeks instead of the usual 4.

SA will be missing at least their Premiership players (no way the SARU will be able to afford a release agreement) and likely French ones as well unless individuals have clauses. The Japan season doesn't interfere so I'd guess Japan based players will be released.

I hope you are wrong about the availability of the SA players because that would be a shame and have no real value to anyone.  There is no point to play the match unless it is against a full strength Springbok team.  For both teams.  I would rather have a Barbarians match (they have to be able to pull one off one of there years!).

SA will still be able to put out a good side their player pool is fairly ridiculous. Would actually be good for them as it'll encourage bringing in some fresh blood Roos or Louw in the pack. Could be used as a development window for them.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

king_carlos wrote:The EPS agreement is that once a RWC cycle England have a 4th AI so England will get their players for 5 weeks instead of the usual 4.

SA will be missing at least their Premiership players (no way the SARU will be able to afford a release agreement) and likely French ones as well unless individuals have clauses. The Japan season doesn't interfere so I'd guess Japan based players will be released.

I hope you are wrong about the availability of the SA players because that would be a shame and have no real value to anyone.  There is no point to play the match unless it is against a full strength Springbok team.  For both teams.  I would rather have a Barbarians match (they have to be able to pull one off one of there years!).

SA will still be able to put out a good side their player pool is fairly ridiculous. Would actually be good for them as it'll encourage bringing in some fresh blood Roos or Louw in the pack. Could be used as a development window for them.

More likely just an opportunity to spin some cash.  That is, assuming the Boks will not be able to have all their players available.  Can't see the benefit of South Africa (or anyone, really) putting out a second side against a full strength international side looking to sharpen up going into a RWC year.

king_carlos wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Jones just appeared on The Good, Bad, Rugby Podcast, with Mike Tindall and Alex Payne.

Asked about trends in the game, he said it's possible — he's not sure yet — that rugby is becoming a young man's sport. Long experience may bring fewer benefits, so you might be better going with youth rather than experience in selection. He says something similar happened in football, so it's not out of question it could happen in rugby too.

New Zealand have done that with their wingers for years. Pick them young, get a torrent of tries from them at their peak and move them on ruthlessly when their form lets up.

In recent interviews, it does seem as if Jones has been talking himself into reasons not to recall some of those dropped Saracens players.

Yea he was very keen on looking for and playing youngsters. He's quoted as saying next years goal is to find three more young talents so lets see how that goes.

Honestly I don't think we'll miss Mako and Billy unless there's a crisis. Int rugby is a tough beast and sometimes players only hit their purple patches for short periods, a good coach recognising that wastes less time.

I suppose the question then is, is he looking for youngsters to replace existing players or for certain positions.

Players capped by Eddie in the last year 23 or under;

1. Rodd
2. Blamire
3. Heyes
4. ?
5. Ted Hill - somewhat of a failed experiment
6. Martin
7. Curry
8. Curry - Dombrandt is 24
9. Quirke
10. Smith
11. Radwan
12. Kelly
13. Lawrence
14. Cockasiga
15. Steward

He's certainly looking for the young talent, or has been this year. Not a bad side apart from the glaring hole in the second row. It looks unlikely Martin is going to shift into that position. 

Possible young lock call ups? Lamb (Quins), Chessum (Tigers), Munga (LI), not sure anybody else is either playing regularly or has been around the England squad previously.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I suppose the question then is, is he looking for youngsters to replace existing players or for certain positions.

Players capped by Eddie in the last year 23 or under;

1. Rodd
2. Blamire
3. Heyes
4. ?
5. Ted Hill - somewhat of a failed experiment
6. Martin
7. Curry
8. Curry - Dombrandt is 24
9. Quirke
10. Smith
11. Radwan
12. Kelly
13. Lawrence
14. Cockasiga
15. Steward

He's certainly looking for the young talent, or has been this year. Not a bad side apart from the glaring hole in the second row. It looks unlikely Martin is going to shift into that position. 

Possible young lock call ups? Lamb (Quins), Chessum (Tigers), Munga (LI), not sure anybody else is either playing regularly or has been around the England squad previously.

Just slightly above that age are Ribbans and Moon, 25 and just 26 respectively. Moon I can see why he is no longer in the picture, but Ribbans is on fire and has been for a while. Not sure what EJ doesn't like about him.

The youth thing does not apply to all positions. Front 5 definitely have a higher peak age.

Id be happy seeing Jones looking at Chessum. He seems to be improving rapidly...and is one of the players who is just horrible to play against. One error aside he had a great game at the weekend.

Stick a stone of muscle on him and he'll be even worse to play against.

In fact id rather him now than Ewells!

PS I wonder what it is that Jones doesnt like in Ribbans?

GeordieFalcon wrote:PS I wonder what it is that Jones doesnt like in Ribbans?

Yeah he missed out with Rowlands, now he'll miss out with Ribbans!

mikey_dragon wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:PS I wonder what it is that Jones doesnt like in Ribbans?

Yeah he missed out with Rowlands, now he'll miss out with Ribbans!

You've always been admirably persistent from your very first 606v2 fishing expedition mikey I'll give you that. Most get bored and move on. I sometimes wonder if you just need a hug though mate.

GeordieFalcon wrote:PS I wonder what it is that Jones doesnt like in Ribbans?

Well he was born in West Somerzet, so I don't get the SA connection  

But seriously at 6'8" and over 19 stone, with the SA clubs playing over here, they may get tempted, he is playing as well as anyone else in the Prem at the moment. England's loss could be SA re-gain

I dunno about SA coming calling they've got no shortage of lock options. Jean-Luc du Preez and Weise up at Sale are both of a similar age to Ribbans as well. That's just in the Prem.

Rowlands  , bless you Mikey. I needed a giggle. He wouldn't get a start for half the teams in the Prem let along the national team.

Rowlands - definitely one bullet we dodged.  But we do have Ewels so we can't look too smug.  With Launchbury looking permanently broken, Kruis happy picking up the yen and Lawes being Eddie's pick at 6, we could do with a couple of big nasty second rows.  i do increasingly find Eddie very much for or against players.  He was loyal to Billy for 2+ years when he was poor and has been incredibly loyal to Ewels.  Other players like Ribbans just don't seem to get a fair chance.  it would be good though to see some traditional big old English second rows coming through.  To think Simon Shaw got only 71 caps in 15 years playing for England.  He would have close to 150 today.

Yeah but Shaw had to compete against the combo of Johno and Kay for years that just worked. As a lock pairing they were so robust they could last 80 mins so you could have Corry on the bench covering lock, 6 and 8 and then an openside which hampered his ability to get caps as well.

It'll be interesting to see what Eddie does. Ewels form has been deteriorating slowly for a while. Johnny Hill actually looked better in the Autumn so might still come good and he's a big unit isn't he.

Shaw had to compete with Grewcock as well. Grewcock didn't maintain his best form as consistently as others but at his best he very good indeed to be fair.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Yeah but Shaw had to compete against the combo of Johno and Kay for years that just worked. As a lock pairing they were so robust they could last 80 mins so you could have Corry on the bench covering lock, 6 and 8 and then an openside which hampered his ability to get caps as well.

It'll be interesting to see what Eddie does. Ewels form has been deteriorating slowly for a while. Johnny Hill actually looked better in the Autumn so might still come good and he's a big unit isn't he.

Hill has the ability to become an exceptional test lock, it seemed that he just didn't think so himself and lacked the confidence in his first starts, Someone either put a rocket up the proverbial or somehow made him confident to play his normal game. He did look the part in the AIs and his tackling vs Australia was top notch and I thought he was okay against SA before he was pulled off. We certainly didn't look any better with Ewels, for me an underpowered lock on the field.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Yeah but Shaw had to compete against the combo of Johno and Kay for years that just worked. As a lock pairing they were so robust they could last 80 mins so you could have Corry on the bench covering lock, 6 and 8 and then an openside which hampered his ability to get caps as well.

It'll be interesting to see what Eddie does. Ewels form has been deteriorating slowly for a while. Johnny Hill actually looked better in the Autumn so might still come good and he's a big unit isn't he.

Hill has the ability to become an exceptional test lock, it seemed that he just didn't think so himself and lacked the confidence in his first starts, Someone either put a rocket up the proverbial or somehow made him confident to play his normal game. He did look the part in the AIs and his tackling vs Australia was top notch and I thought he was okay against SA before he was pulled off. We certainly didn't look any better with Ewels, for me an underpowered lock on the field.

I think he did back himself but he lacked a bit of nous. Not the first person I've seen go in a Lions Tour and come back a better player, there was certainly some real talent for him to train with and learn from.

Will Mitchell get a recall, probably the best 9 in the Prem at the moment, making and scoring tries all the time, Prem player of the month. He sort of reminds me of a young Danny Care, but with better defence and kicking game. He has the pace of a fast wing and the instinct to be in the right place to support breaks, alas he doesn't have a swan dive.

I think Mitchell will sit as third choice 9. Randall showed his brilliance and his fallibility yesterday with two tries created but a woeful kicking game (couple out on the few or just easy takes for Steward). I suspect that rules Randall out, Robson is broken. Youngs will be in there as per and Quirke was so good in the AIs he'll remain you'd assume.

Mitchell probably needs an injury to get into the 6N, he has a tendency to not really turn up in some of the bigger games I've seen him in, admittedly his team were struggling in some of those games and it is always tough to shine at 9 if you're pack is having a tough time.

France have apparently introduced a law saying that no unvaccinated players are allowed to play in France, pro level and beyond. Could make the 6N selection interesting if no compromise is reached with the tournament organisers. Slade for instance would miss out on the tournament finale.

Would surely be up to the 6Ns rather than France....but good.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Would surely be up to the 6Ns rather than France....but good.

If that is the law for playing the sport in their country then the tournament organisers would have to agree an exemption with the French government.

And the flip side is would the tournament accept a team creating their own qualification rules?

Sounds like the French being very......er.....French.

Don't worry, they'll be a strike next week and they'll change their mind again.

No 7&1/2 wrote:And the flip side is would the tournament accept a team creating their own qualification rules?

Well they'll either negotiate an exemption, move the French games to a neutral location or just tell the teams to vaccinate their players. It would be interesting to know how many from each nation would be lost due to anti-vax views. Most Prem teams had north of 80% vaccination of players by the start of the season.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:And the flip side is would the tournament accept a team creating their own qualification rules?

Well they'll either negotiate an exemption, move the French games to a neutral location or just tell the teams to vaccinate their players. It would be interesting to know how many from each nation would be lost due to anti-vax views. Most Prem teams had north of 80% vaccination of players by the start of the season.

Or, simply, perhaps visiting teams will have to leave their unvaccinated players home.  Emmanuel Macron doesn't seem the type to give an exemption to Rugby (or to the Brits for that matter).
The best solution, which we do not directly control, is to hope the Omicron blows itself out and travel is permitted.

"France have apparently introduced a law saying that no unvaccinated players are allowed to play in France, pro level and beyond. Could make the 6N selection interesting if no compromise is reached with the tournament organisers. Slade for instance would miss out on the tournament finale."

This sounds like it would also include French players playing for French clubs, not just an entry requirement. Who wins the 6N, the team with the most vaccinated players.

I read it the same way.  Seems to be directed mostly at athletes playing sport for clubs and teams in France.  But from what little I have read, seems like a blanket rule to across the board and international events in all sports are impacted.  

Regarding the 6 Nations and England, only four options that I see:
1.  The match moves out of France - but there is less chance of that happening than the French admitting the Brits and Americans liberated Paris.
2.  The French government comes to an accommodation with whomever in the 6 Nations regarding temporary allowance for the non-vaxxed to play in France for the immediate term only - Doubt that one too as Macron does not seem to be in an accommodating mood.  Though, to be fair, this might also depend on other sports and the total number of international players coming to France across all sport.
3. Non-vaxxed players stay home - I can see this easily and have no issue with it, but.....    
4. With no accommodation, it is possible the 6 Nations Central committee decides forfeit by France for not allowing all players into the country - spiteful, but likely.

Doc, does that mean that France will leave all their un-vacced players at home for the away matches? If they are in the bubble nothing stopping them playing in the away games. I realise that it is not a decision taken by the FRU, but a bit hypocritical to say you can't play you full side here, but we can send our to you. Do they not have exemtions for people that say have had bad reactions to the flu vaccine and might be at risk from the Covid ones?

BBC reporting that Farrell, George and Tuilagi will now all be fit for the 6N.

Which poses a selection dilemma: do England actually want or need them back? As far as I know, Slade still isn’t vaccinated (muppet), so there’s a need for a centre to play against France, if nothing else.

I’d like to see Smith playing with Tuilagi and Marchant, but only if Tuilagi is fit enough to last more than 3 minutes. I am not sure that England’s attack runs better with Farrell, though he’s a very useful bench option.

George is useful to have around, but is he ahead of LCD and Blamire?

Only time and Eddie can tell.

I am sure the French clubs would leave their non-vaxxed at home in the spirit of fair play and even handedness....

Before the next round of Euro matches I bet we hear a lot more about who can play and not. That is, if this tournament is going to go forward this year.

France host England, Ireland, and Italy this year. And I presume Italy and Ireland, though in the EU, are bound by the same regulations.

Poorfour wrote:BBC reporting that Farrell, George and Tuilagi will now all be fit for the 6N.

Which poses a selection dilemma: do England actually want or need them back? As far as I know, Slade still isn’t vaccinated (muppet), so there’s a need for a centre to play against France, if nothing else.

I’d like to see Smith playing with Tuilagi and Marchant, but only if Tuilagi is fit enough to last more than 3 minutes. I am not sure that England’s attack runs better with Farrell, though he’s a very useful bench option.

George is useful to have around, but is he ahead of LCD and Blamire?

Only time and Eddie can tell.

A fit and firing George is much better than Blamire. George just doesn't get to score like a back.
Tuilagi, I play on the bench.
Farrell, really not sure

Agree George is better than Blamire, but he's improving all the time. I'd say Blamire is more physical and EJ puts a lot in that.

I agree with Doc. Blamire is talented but LCD and George are our best hookers by a mile still.

If Manu's fit I'd pick him. He offers things others simply can't. Just don't make the mistake Lancaster made of building an attack that can't function without him.

Farrell I'd definitely still have in the 23 but potentially on the bench. I like tactical differences in options across a matchday squad that allow you to alter the game plan if required. Having two very different FHs in Smith and Faz is a positive not a negative in my opinion. Especially given Farrell has the versatility of playing a lot of tests at 12 as well.

1.Marler 2.LCD 3.Sinckler 4.Itoje 5.Hill 6.Lawes 7.Curry 8.Dombrandt
9.Youngs 10.Smith 11.May 12.Manu 13.Slade 14.Malins 15.Steward

16.George 17.Genge 18.Stuart 19.Martin 20.Underhill 21.Quirke 22.Farrell 23.Marchant

I'd be delighted to see that sort of 23 start the Six Nations. Blamire, Radwan, Barbeary and Jack Willis (if fit) would be the other players I'd definitely have around the training squads.