English 6 Nations

First topic message reminder :

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/jan/05/six-nations-rugby-covid-rob-baxter

A potential answer to a potential problem. Baxter has said that if there is a risk of cancellations or playing in front of 1 man and his dog you may as well play all the games in England.

I suppose an interesting suggestion. If they could agree a slice of revenue from whichever grounds would host along with some teams giving up home advantage would people want to see this? It doesn't reduce the risk at all, merely increases it surely, gives England an advantage. It's unlikely the Government will bring in further restrictions as their hands are tied by the back benchers so reduces the risk of last minute changes. Just a big melting pot of cross contamination.


'Rob Baxter, Exeter’s director of rugby, believes that playing this season’s Six Nations in one country has “got to be better than cancelling it”.

The tournament is due to kick off in Dublin and Edinburgh on 5 February but currently finds itself shrouded in uncertainty. Under current Welsh Government restrictions imposed due to the pandemic and, specifically, the omicron variant, Wales would have to play scheduled home games against Scotland, France and Italy behind closed doors. Scotland are in a similar position for games at Murrayfield, while it has been reported that Wales could consider moving their home against Scotland, France and Italy to England.

Financial implications of behind-closed-doors home games for the Welsh Rugby Union would be significant. They faced an identical situation for last season’s tournament, with the shutters being down for matches against Ireland and England. Full crowds were, however, allowed at the Principality Stadium for Wales’ recent Autumn Nations Series before fresh restrictions took effect from Boxing Day.

Capacity crowds are currently allowed in England, provided spectators can prove full vaccination status or provide a negative lateral flow test. Against such a backdrop, playing the whole competition – it takes place across five weekends between early February and mid-March – in one country with permitted crowds has also been mooted in some quarters.

“The whole beauty of the Six Nations has been that change of environment, that change of weather conditions, going to play in Scotland, Wales, Ireland – those are the great challenges,” said Baxter. “That’s what makes the Six Nations such a great competition to win. You’ve seen French teams in that one week they can beat anyone in the world in Paris, and then the next week it doesn’t go quite so well in Cardiff. That’s the beauty of the tournament, that’s what from a rugby perspective I am sure we would all want to see happen.

“That said, we can’t all sit here and pretend the world is in an ideal place at the moment. For the national bodies, their responsibility goes beyond the professional sport, it goes right down to grassroots rugby, so if playing the tournament provides a level of income that cancelling it or no crowds doesn’t create, then we’ve got to look at the next best scenario. If the next best scenario is playing it in one country, where you can have sellout crowds, you can raise some revenue and you can keep that income stream going for all the bodies, then it’s got to be better than cancelling it.


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“I think with every sporting body, it’s revenue that is the biggest thing that has been damaged, so anything that can keep revenue online has got to be preferable to just binning things for a season,” Baxter added. “We’ve all had to try and find a way to keep going, to try and keep revenue coming in. It’s the same with any business, you’ve got to explore those options.”

Since returning from injury Daly has played in all of Sarries completed fixtures. He's looked good on the wing when I've seen him as well to be fair.

My view with Daly has been the consistent for years though. Regardless of Daly's weaknesses I think England improved a lot as a team by replacing Brown with Daly. What we gained in attack won more games than what we lost in defence IMO. I'd never pick Daly at 15 now with Steward and Malins much better players than were available then. I didn't get the calls for Brown to be recalled back then though. At his peak Brown was good but his strengths were on the wane I felt and his weaknesses (mainly having the passing game of a blind seal with one flipper amputated) were becoming more glaring as those strengths declined.

I could see Daly adding something as a winger. He looked good there when playing every minute of the tests for the Lions in 2017 and had some good performances there for England either side of it. He's a player with a lot of different skills if he can re-find his best form.

lostinwales wrote:On Lawes we can't win. Apparently a head knock so things dependent on how his recovery goes this week. I'd expect him to be available.

Good to see Isiekwe but why not Martin?

Martin has been injured for a few weeks. He was named in the XV for Tigers vs Bordeaux but it got cancelled so he's not played since January 2nd. I'd guess Chessum was a direct replacement for the training spot Martin filled in the Autumn.

As long as Daly is nowhere near the 15 role, I'm happy for him to be in contention, it is easy to take for granted what a talented player he is.

As a 31/ 32 year old winger I look at any potentially long international absence as perhaps the drawing of a curtain on May's England career. He's been a fine servant, but it is the nature of the position he plays. I could of course be wrong, but things move quickly in the world of rugby and the next star could have nailed the position down. That all depends on the nature/ length of his layoff though.

With Nowell and Daly we have options if we want experience in the back 3.

Not sure about Nowell due to his injury history. I suppose if he has played well this season then he could slot in. But is he a Tuilagi risk?

I have nothing against Daly, but thought England had moved on from him. He had a very good career. I know he hasn't played very much.

With Ford formally called up, it's evident he is regarded as, at least, the No.3 fly half. This always seemed obvious to me, but a number of pundits kept pushing the nonsense line that, as he wasn't named in two squads, Jones must rank him behind players like Furlong and Bailey for the 10 shirt.

The implications for the bench also show one reason Jones wanted to persevere with Farrell. You can't have a 6-2 bench if both Ford and Smith are in the same matchday 23. In an emergency, both could probably make a go of it elsewhere but you wouldn't set out to do that.

Without Farrell, a 6-2 split would require leaving one of Smith or Ford out, and relying on someone like Slade or Malins to shift over, if the first choice fly half couldn't see out the game. He would have to take on kicking duties too. That's how we went into last year's match against South Africa, though Smith ended up playing the whole match.

In that scenario, Ford (since he would probably be the one left out) would be the first choice, back-up starting fly-half in the overall squad, but not first choice, back-up fly-half in the match day squad.

Midway through the last World cup cycle, as Jones had settled on the Ford-Farrell pairing, it looked like he wanted to groom someone as a back-up in Farrell's playmaker inside centre role. Rob Lozowski seemed like the leading candidate, and this forum often discussed using Slade, or a young Harry Mallinder there.

When Lozowski was dropped after the November 2018 game, the quest for a like-for-like Farrell replacement ended. Either Jones decided he couldn't find one, or else he decided he wanted different styles available in his matchday 23. Lozowski was dropped within months of Daly starting regularly at full back, a change which offered more attacking options than Brown.

We are in a similar position again. While Steward is no slouch as an attacking full-back, he is more in the Mike Brown mould than someone like Malins or Daly. Short of returning to Lozowski, who is actually showing decent form, if Jones wants a 6-2 split, even when Farrell is unavailable, then he'll need to give Slade or Malins some game time at 10.

Will Kelleher said on the Times podcast that George Ford can be forgiven for feeling a bit messed about. Used to running games on his own at club level, England asked him to work in tandem with Farrell. When Jones wanted his fly halves to take more control, he found himself dropped.

I doubt whether any player can feel messed about, when he's been a firm fixture in the team for years. As a competitive animal, Ford will surely want to show he can run a game as comprehensively as Smith. Farrell's absence might actually benefit him in camp, though it will be a surprise if Jones decides not to start Smith, no matter how well Ford goes in training.

In a way Ford is the no.2 fly half- it is just that Farrell has been more important as a 12 and as captain, and Eddie considers that flexibility more important

May - latest I can see is that he's definitely missing the first game and probably the 2nd.

It is the kind of language that suggests he won't be playing this 6N.

lostinwales wrote:May - latest I can see is that he's definitely missing the first game and probably the 2nd.

It is the kind of language that suggests he won't be playing this 6N.

On Twitter, Russ Petty says May hasn't missed a 6N match since round 5 in 2017. In the Telegraph, Charlie Morgan says May does a lot of work which sets the tone for England, and often goes unnoticed (GIFs not included).

As the deck shuffled around him last autumn, May’s place on the left wing was a constant in the England back three. Against Tonga, Freddie Steward was at full-back with Adam Radwan on the right flank.

In the win over the Wallabies, while Manu Tuilagi wore the number 14, Henry Slade dropped to full-back with Steward slipping across to a wider role. Then, for South Africa’s visit to Twickenham, Joe Marchant started alongside May and Steward before Max Malins arrived.

May hunts attacking touches all over the field and has accumulated 35 tries in 69 caps. Only Rory Underwood can better that haul. But the Gloucester man is also an influential leader of England’s kicking strategy. And he works extremely hard.  

In the early exchanges against the Springboks two months ago, his energy helped set an assured tone. [In one] contribution that has become typical of the 31-year-old’s performances over the past few years....[he] starts close to the far touchline here... and, although he does not catch Marcus Smith’s up-and-under cleanly, May pounces on the ricochet and offloads from the floor to Ben Youngs.

Although that may look insignificant, it led indirectly to Tuilagi’s try. Smith then found space in behind South Africa, whose own back three had been dragged out of position, with a diagonal kick that was regathered by Marchant. Youngs’ grubber, pursued by Steward and May, earned a five-metre scrum for England.

[Following May] as South Africa attack from a lineout on his wing [he] begins in behind the set piece… and scurries all the way across the field to cover for his back-three colleagues as Malins is out-flanked and Steward has to push up. May spills Willie Le Roux’s chip and concedes a breakdown penalty, but his off-the-ball tracking is a perfect example of pendulum defence.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2022/01/25/six-nations-2022-england-would-miss-without-jonny-may-owen-farrell/

It's a fair point, but May's not the only player who can do it. Marchant does a similar thing for Quins - last season I lost count of the number of times he turned pressure on a kick or a bobbling ball into an attacking platform. It's telling that he's also namechecked in the sequence.

I think also we're moving away from the "kick, pressure, pounce on the mistakes" model a little towards something that has more "present the defence with multiple options to cover and choose the one they don't pick", which leans more towards kick passes and playing the ball into space rather than contesting directly.

Poorfour wrote:I think also we're moving away from the "kick, pressure, pounce on the mistakes" model a little towards something that has more "present the defence with multiple options to cover and choose the one they don't pick", which leans more towards kick passes and playing the ball into space rather than contesting directly.

I suspect we will see an adapted version of the kick, pressure, pounce game plan. Eddie doesn't like taking chances in his own half and given that we have a tendency to concede penalties I understand why he'd persist with that tactic. International defences being tougher is another reason to err on the side of caution.

England have for a while run the multiple options for ball carry style of attack but the issue is that the number of patterns used was very small. One or two with maybe a third off set piece, relying on fast ball from the rucks to stop the opposition realigning and disrupting. That worked pretty well until we started selecting unbalanced backlines. Given Smith is at 10 you'd expect some more leeway for invention, the crossfield kick has always been a go to so the kick pass is something that may well be adopted.

Poopy. Marler is out with covid. We'll at least for a week but questionable he'll be considered now.

doctor_grey wrote:Not sure about Nowell due to his injury history.  I suppose if he has played well this season then he could slot in.  But is he a Tuilagi risk?  

I have nothing against Daly, but thought England had moved on from him.  He had a very good career.   I know he hasn't played very much.  

Daly was injured in the Autumn, with the Lions in the summer and played (albeit dismally) in the Six Nations so the initial squad for this Six Nations was actually the first time he wasn't selected when available.

Nowell has started 13 games this season and played the full match in all but one where he played 69 minutes. If he's going to be picked again now is the time. You can't really ask an injury prone player to do much more to prove his fitness than start 13 games and play over 1000 minutes by January!

Poorfour wrote:It's a fair point, but May's not the only player who can do it. Marchant does a similar thing for Quins - last season I lost count of the number of times he turned pressure on a kick or a bobbling ball into an attacking platform. It's telling that he's also namechecked in the sequence.

Marchant is fantastic in the air. Given his preferred position is centre it's sometimes overlooked. If an out and out back three player were as good in the air as Marchant it would be consistently mentioned as a big strength of their game. Whilst not as quick as May or LZR he is plenty fast enough to lead a kick chase as well.

Marler has covid and has withdrawn from the England squad, on Ruck but confirmed by the RFU.

Sorry 15/2. missed your post

That's a blow. That said, Marler had it in the Autumn as well and managed to come back after training in his chicken run for a week.

Crikey pack really is lacking in experience with him and Lawes out. Time to recall Phil Vickery?

Well at least it give Rodd the chance to rip apart the Scotland defence with some raking passes. Surely Jones needs to call someone up as cover though. West?

Marler can sit out the Scotland game (alothough its only 5 days isolation isnt it? so may even be available)...we have Genge and Rodd which is good...

Farrell out for the entire 6N according to Ben Coles on Twitter

Potentially the same for Jonny May

I wonder where that leaves Farrells international career...minor blip...or potentially gone?

Depends on how Marler is and comes back. I'd have West in the squad now to ensure that he's been involved in training just in case. I know Jones does tend to not have tonnes of cover though.

Farrell is too young and too good to be cast aside yet. Worst thing for him would be for Slade to step into 12 and play brilliantly. Which I can't see happening personally.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Depends on how Marler is and comes back. I'd have West in the squad now to ensure that he's been involved in training just in case. I know Jones does tend to not have tonnes of cover though.

Farrell is too young and too good to be cast aside yet. Worst thing for him would be for Slade to step into 12 and play brilliantly. Which I can't see happening personally.

And Jones is such a huge fan.

i was thinking more about time frames.

Misses 6n
Summer tour (assuming there is one) - Jones will probably blood Ojomoh, Kelly (Maybe Lawrence comes back in)
AI's - If the above play well...maybe they continue..

And theres alot of 10's.

Be interesting to see where this goes.

Johnny Hill “touch and go” for the Scotland game.

Huh

Just read that May is having surgery too - so you have to wonder if he'll be back this 6N

England have Curry doing the media launch day, indication he will be captain if Lawes doesn't make it?

By the way it sounds like Covid is hitting a number of the squads, particularly the French.

Aye, I just looked up Jonny Hill's situation and local Devon Press are suggesting he could be out for the first two rounds. Christ, we are going to start with Ewels aren't we? Could do worse that partner the two Sarancens together though. Given the preparation time, it might be worth starting Jamie George too?

Wouldn't hate seeing a pack like below (assuming we are missing the rumoured players):

01. Ellis Genge
02. Jamie George
03. Kyle Sinkler
04. Maro Itoje
05. Nick Isiekwe
06. Alfie Barbeary/Lewis Ludlum/ Ollie Chessum!?
07. Tom Curry
08. Alex Dombrandt


Wouldn't hate that starting team at all! We have got great depth in certain positions...

It'll be Charlie Ewells at lock!

Good. Strengthens our set piece.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Depends on how Marler is and comes back. I'd have West in the squad now to ensure that he's been involved in training just in case. I know Jones does tend to not have tonnes of cover though.

Farrell is too young and too good to be cast aside yet. Worst thing for him would be for Slade to step into 12 and play brilliantly. Which I can't see happening personally.

And Jones is such a huge fan.

i was thinking more about time frames.

Misses 6n
Summer tour (assuming there is one) - Jones will probably blood Ojomoh, Kelly (Maybe Lawrence comes back in)
AI's - If the above play well...maybe they continue..

And theres alot of 10's.

Be interesting to see where this goes.

Three tests in Australia. I think we'll be nearly full strength. When they toured SA in 2018 the Lions who were fit all toured. I believe the only absentees were injured rather than rested.

Didnt realise it was over there KC...i still think one or two positions will be looked at...12 included.

But yes maybe Farrell wont be jettisoned just yet.

Really good opportunity for some new players and combos to take advantage of the injured and missing players.

And in the summer it will be interesting to further test those players away in Aus whilst also maybe bringing back a couple to see where they are? Maybe the Vunipolas could go?

Didn't realise that Hill was a doubt. Could leave us a bit light if another lock picked up a niggle. Would love to see Jones have another look at Ribbans.

It's going to be a very different looking England squad - even allowing for Marler to come back in in time for Scotland, we'll be looking at something like 4 changes in the starting pack, 5 in the starting backline and perhaps 11 or 12 of the 23 compared to 2021.

That said, I think most of us are more excited about what it could do than worried about the lack of experience, and it's a while since we've been able to say that.

Lock looks like the big weak spot, especially with Lawes out, and England will be light on lineout jumpers unless we end up with Isiekwe or Chessum at 6 (or Eddie trusts Dombrandt as an option). Beyond that, though, it's a dynamic pack with a strong setpiece foundation and potentially the most exciting backline I can remember.

It could all come crashing down in a week and a half... but given how England toughed it out against the Boks despite all the disruption to the squad, I don't think they will be as lacking in imagination or grit as last year's vintage.

i would imagine one of Isiekwe or Chessum will be in the match day squad.

Itoje & Ewells starting locks?

1.Genge 2.Cowan-Dickie 3.Sinckler 4.Itoje 5.Ewels 6.Ludlam 7.Curry 8.Dombrandt
9.Youngs 10.Smith 11.Nowell 12.Slade 13.Marchant 14.Malins 15.Steward

16.George 17.Marler 18.Stuart 19.Isiekwe 20.Simmonds 21.Quirke 22.Ford 23.Daly

Given potential absentees that would cover bases pretty well.

Ewels isn't going to do much outside of run the lineout in attack and defence but with England's best three lineout leaders in Lawes, Kruis and Hill unavailable that's a pretty important thing to be able to do.

Thats still a pretty damn good side if everyone is fit and firing!

Aggressive mobile front row, Aggressive mobile back row...and players who can make things happen all over the backs.

I'd be quite surprised to see Barbeary omitted from the match day squad. Inexperienced but a special player.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/italy-hoping-to-poach-english-trio-alex-lozowski-paolo-odogwu-and-louis-lynagh-mtbpqvpvt

From the article it sounds like Lynagh and Lozowski both turned them down for this 6N

Italy hoping to poach English trio Alex Lozowski, Paolo Odogwu and Louis Lynagh

Odogwu, centre, has yet to make his England debut and qualifies to play for Italy through an Italian grandparent
The Wasps centre Odogwu, 24, and the Harlequins wing Lynagh, 21, have been in England squads under Eddie Jones, the head coach, but are yet to win a cap. Lynagh was born in Italy, when his famous Australian father, Michael, played for Benetton Treviso in 2000, and Odogwu has an Italian grandparent.

The Italy head coach, Kieran Crowley, hopes that the trio can be persuaded to make the switch. “I have been in contact with them,” he said. “I haven’t personally [spoken] with Paolo, but he has been contacted. The other two I’ve spoken to personally. We’ve discussed it and they’ve made decisions I respect 100 per cent.

“I will keep in contact with them. If they declared themselves available for Italy we’d certainly look at them. They’re all quality players. I’m open to anyone being available, but we’ve picked our [Six Nations] squad now — the best one it’s possible to pick with the players available, and we’re very happy with that.

“We will keep the lines of communication open with not only those three but a number of others as well. If any of them suddenly decided they wanted to be available for Italy we would certainly consider them, if their form warrants it.”

As reported by The Times, Lozowski could be close to an England return, having caught the eye of Jones since returning this season to Saracens after a one-year loan to Montpellier.

It is understood he is on a standby list for England’s Six Nations squad. His director of rugby at Saracens, Mark McCall, said: “I think when you’re close to the England set-up, it would be a big decision to commit to Italy at this point.”

If he, Lynagh or Odogwu were to opt for Italy it would affect their contractual situation with their Gallagher Premiership clubs: because they are listed as “English qualified” their teams gain credits that allow them to spend more under the league’s salary cap.

Crowley is aware of those issues. “You’ll have to talk to them about their desires, but certainly I’ve had conversations about their availability for Italy,” he said.

“I think in Louis’s case he’s also eligible for Australia. They have some decisions to make. It is their living, they’re playing for clubs in England, so if they suddenly make themselves available for Italy how does that affect their contractual status? There’s the salary cap, [credits for] English eligible players and all that detail.

“It’s not the fact of being available, it’s the fact of how to fix their contractual status, which is their livelihood at the moment.”

4 words in and I'm already annoyed. It is not poaching to offer a professional sportsman an opportunity to play rugby. And when you read teh comments from Crowley it really becomes evident that he's simply doing exactly as he should as coach of Italy.

Yep, them’s the rules now. Thought it was interesting that Lozowski is back on the radar, I’m so out of the loop with club rugby but I’ve always thought he had plenty to offer the England setup with his versatility and skillset

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd be quite surprised to see Barbeary omitted from the match day squad. Inexperienced but a special player.

With a 6-2 split I think Barbeary would definitely feature. I have a feeling it will be a 5-3 bench with Simmonds getting the 20 shirt though.

Didn't Lozowski and Slade play together in the centres on the tour to Argentina in 2017? I seem to recall they did alright together in the game they played.

It was the Japan game that put paid to Lozowski.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It was the Japan game that put paid to Lozowski.

Shifting to 13, which I do think is Lozowski's best position, also put him in direct competition with Manu, Slade and JJ for the outside centre shirt. He seems to have come back from the year at Montpellier an even better player.

Lozowski played at 10 for Montpellier a fair bit. If Eddie wanted someone in the 23 shirt who could legitimately cover virtually the entire backline he'd be a good shout. I remember Lozowski doing a couple of games on the wing for Sarries when they had injuries as well, he played pretty well there as he's got some speed.

Just noticed current speculation is that May is out for the 6N. Hill has a foot problem and the prognosis is not known, and Slade is not training this week.

I suspect (based admittedly on nothing) that Lawes and Slade will be fine for Scotland, the only question being how much work Lawes will be able to do beforehand.

lostinwales wrote:Just noticed current speculation is that May is out for the 6N. Hill has a foot problem and the prognosis is not known, and Slade is not training this week.

I suspect (based admittedly on nothing) that Lawes and Slade will be fine for Scotland, the only question being how much work Lawes will be able to do beforehand.

Lawes has developed that ability to return from injury playing very well to be fair. Some players seem to need a lot of training and games to reach their peak. For a while now Lawes has been very good pretty much whenever he plays.

king_carlos wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Just noticed current speculation is that May is out for the 6N. Hill has a foot problem and the prognosis is not known, and Slade is not training this week.

I suspect (based admittedly on nothing) that Lawes and Slade will be fine for Scotland, the only question being how much work Lawes will be able to do beforehand.

Lawes has developed that ability to return from injury playing very well to be fair. Some players seem to need a lot of training and games to reach their peak. For a while now Lawes has been very good pretty much whenever he plays.

I know he doesn't get injured so often these days but historically he's certainly had enough practice.

Eddie has said he's considering Slade at 12 - which I think most of us would support. That makes the choice of 13 interesting. Marchant would be the obvious choice, perhaps with Nowell and Malins on the wings. Northmore would give a bit more heft and let him use Marchant on the wing.