The Welsh Regions and the URC

First topic message reminder :

I was reading the latest article on WOL the other day titled How to save Welsh rugby - The uncomfortable truth facing our game and the difficult solutions that need to be explored. There was the usual nonsense spouted, and the demonising of the semi pro game getting too many votes and the what not, but it did get me thinking, especially the bit about reducing the waste and fixing the pathways. Here is the link if any of you are interested:-

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/how-save-welsh-rugby-uncomfortable-23671119

What started me thinking was how the regions could live within their means and still be competitive, and to be honest, they cannot. Then I started thinking about the league since it's inception and the regions involvement, has it really been a success ?

Trophy wise you could argue a point, but then I started thinking a little more. Leinster and Ulster aside, the Welsh regions average about the same attendances as the rest, but on derby day the Welsh regions get full houses. So the question I wanted to ask, is the league a good thing for Welsh rugby ?

Wales is a small place, and the teams rely on ALL the fans, both home and away. Would playing in a Welsh league do more for Welsh rugby than the league they are in now ? The teams would get bigger crowds I would wager. It is far easier to travel from Newport to Llanelli than it is from any Welsh region to Glasgow or Dublin. Would we get a lot more "full" stadiums if it were Welsh teams playing Welsh teams every week ? At the moment, the regions just rely on their own fans turning up, and none of the regions have a massive city like Dublin, or a whole country like Ulster to back them up.

I know a Welsh league would struggle to get the TV money the URC can generate, but would the extra fans at the ground make up for it ? I don't know, I'm no expert in these things, all I can say is what I bare witness to, and the URC is not very popular here in Wales, even after the best part 20 odd years, it's been messed around with too much, and people do not know what they are following anymore, changes of structure, changes of tv companies ect.....

I would like to see a 8/10 team Welsh league, with the best players from "each region" playing in a 4 team end of season regional league, where the top two go into the the top tier Euro comp, and the bottom two go into the lower Euro comp. Yes the regions still compete in Europe, but the players also represent their clubs in the league, rekindle the old rivalries, which still have the embers burning by the way.

Also, I would like to see a shake-up of the coaches in Wales, there are far too many jobs for the boys, people getting highly paid at the regions to do jobs that most people volunteer to do in the leagues below. Even though most of the article is just personal opinion, there is a lot to surmise from reading it.

Also, can we please debate the article and the subject, and not me.

What are the thoughts of other fans on this subject ?

LordDowlais wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:They will be scratch sides put together at the end of the season from the Welsh league teams.

Would they be scratch sides though ? They would be playing in Europe throughout the season. Also, do you consider international sides "scratch sides" ?

geoff999rugby wrote:If Italy dropped out of the URC should they be guaranteed two entries as well?

Whos saying anything about Italy dropping out ? They can stay in the URC.

Only two of the four would be playing in European as per your suggestions.
To an extent International are scratch sides but at the highest level, Welsh regions are nowhere near top club level.
Glad you know what the Italians can do.
I suggest to you if the Welsh got two guaranteed places into European, Italy would be clamouring for the same.

The far bigger point though is you think an internal Welsh league should have a direct route to European competition in the same way the English, French and the multi national URC have.
The standard of a 8 or 10 team Welsh league wouldn’t warrant that, even through scratch regional sides.

A few folk are stating the obvious short term implications of playing standards without looking at the longer term goal.
The reason this thread started was a dissatisfaction with the current URC and what it has cost Wales in terms of the wider sporting cultural aspect. Someone earlier compared the Welsh team's to the AIL league, which isn't remotely comparable and misunderstands the different starting points for the sport.
This is all conjecture, with none of it likely and with a slow decline of participation of fans & players alike for welsh sides causing another weak link in the URC like many view the Italian sides. Perhaps the URC might come to a conclusion on salary caps but only when forced.

Fans have a choice, either follow a top down elitist approach with limited access for players and fans or a bottom up structure that maintains rivalry and interest and is seen as the top tier of the game. Let the WRU/ Test team sort themselves out separately.

Recwatcher16 wrote:A few folk are stating the obvious short term implications of playing standards without looking at the longer term goal.
The reason this thread started was a dissatisfaction with the current URC and what it has cost Wales in terms of the wider sporting cultural aspect. Someone earlier compared the Welsh team's to the AIL league, which isn't remotely comparable and misunderstands the different starting points for the sport.
This is all conjecture, with none of it likely and with a slow decline of participation of fans & players alike for welsh sides causing another weak link in the URC like many view the Italian sides. Perhaps the URC might come to a conclusion on salary caps but only when forced.

Fans have a choice, either follow a top down elitist approach with limited access for players and fans or a bottom up structure that maintains rivalry and interest and is seen as the top tier of the game.  Let the WRU/ Test team sort themselves out separately.

Exactly.

I too think that Recwatchers last post makes a lot of sense.
I would just point out two things.
I don’t think that a salary cap is the panacea you might hope for.

It would peg Leinster back a fair bit and reduce the number of NIQ players that Munster get but other than that nothing of note.
With Covid Ulsters salaries this year are below £6 million.
If Vermuelen and Carter left we would be close to £5 million.

The other point is if you went for a 8/10 team Premiership there would be no automatic European qualification.
The best I can see is the top teams playing end of season knock out matches against the 8th teams in the 3 other leagues.

In the end though do what is ever needed to get interest back be that a Welsh league or the regions in the English 2nd Tier.
They are the only two realistic options I can see to the existing structure.

Something needs to change as the Regions are limping along which is not good for Welsh rugby, or indeed rugby in general.

The one thing missing from the Rec is that not everyone would be happy with stronger links with clubs. I agree with the last point on the whole it seems really a top down or approach. Same as the point to Oracle the Welsh fan base doesn't see eye to eye on the approach of Wales being the pinnacle, or the regions, or the semi pro clubs. Massively difficult to please them all.

The overall driver money; there's never enough of it.

Wow, steady on people!! We're on the verge of having a consider debate on page 7 of this thread (deliberately not going to open previous tabs).

Recwatcher16 wrote:A few folk are stating the obvious short term implications of playing standards without looking at the longer term goal.
The reason this thread started was a dissatisfaction with the current URC and what it has cost Wales in terms of the wider sporting cultural aspect. Someone earlier compared the Welsh team's to the AIL league, which isn't remotely comparable and misunderstands the different starting points for the sport.
This is all conjecture, with none of it likely and with a slow decline of participation of fans & players alike for welsh sides causing another weak link in the URC like many view the Italian sides. Perhaps the URC might come to a conclusion on salary caps but only when forced.

Fans have a choice, either follow a top down elitist approach with limited access for players and fans or a bottom up structure that maintains rivalry and interest and is seen as the top tier of the game.  Let the WRU/ Test team sort themselves out separately.

If we look at Welsh and Scottish soccer over the last 30 years it gives a good indicator of where things are headed for Welsh Rugby depending on which route they take.

Scottish football in the 90s was nearly as good as the English.  As the larger English Premiership Pie grew and the Scottish stayed the same Scottish clubs strrugled are now stuck wishing they could have a bigger league either by joining with other smaller leagues or joining the English structure.

Welsh football on the other hand was rubbish in the 90s for the main as it was a small part of an average league for their big clubs.  Now they are much stronger because they are a small part of a big league and can support better set ups.

The Welsh Rugby pie at Club level is not getting bigger by itself.  Fans that watch the Regions aren't going to all go watch the Welsh Premership because they will know it's not as good. The amount of money coming in from TV and sponsers would probably half overnight for a Welsh only league.

American sports such as NFL are built off the view of sports needs few players and lots of fans.  They don't want 20% of their fans having other clubs to look after to take their money or time.  NFL produces loads of players through schools and college and players become fans after school/college if they don't make it they are't going to minor clubs on weekends.

English Rugby is struggling and the Championship is effectively semi pro.  There are less professional clubs in England than 10 years ago.  The wage cap is the only thing keeping some of those afloat.  Team like Exeter are filling out their squad with Irish fringe players because they have to reduce their wage bill.  Sale are letting top players go to get under the cap.  Quinn's and Tigers will face the same challenges in a year or two when their kids look for new contracts. What is going to change in the English Premiership to allow the club's to raise the cap, or if English players don't leave why would they want to raise the cap.

Professional rugby everywhere is struggling except France who are doing a top down approach to make a 3rd professional division.  The powers that be want clubs in certain areas and will pick them over better southern clubs. It is the league rather than the Union but they want clubs in the North not smaller teams in the south stealing T14 and ProD2 club attendances. They want 1 La Rochelle getting 15-20k rather than 20 semi pro clubs getting 2k each with loads of players.

Rugby is going to follow the NFL model where schools and academies funnel players into the professional teams and the majority of people are fans rather than former players.  The amateur clubs become more social clubs focusing on the kids leagues and fun leagues. Unions would much rather run double the youth programs then fund loads of clubs. How much of the 11m paid by the WRU to clubs during Covid brought in more future players or revenue. If the Regions were the only show in town would more people go. You have seen the PRL try to do this with looking for the A league to be seen above the Championship.

Money is all in TV and sponsers in the international and elite level at mens and Womens 15s and 7s and playing numbers for over 23s will just be a drain on funds for the u23 players. TV now brings in more money than fans in many Rugby levels and less people playing the bigger they get.

Exeter are filling out their squad with Irish fringe players ???

They have two Irish players and Ian Whitten has been there 10 years!

Also squad being trimmed to meet salary caps is not a sign of struggling.
There  is more debt, as in owed to owners, in the French game than the English one.

Rugby needs passion from its supporters to be sustainable
As is clear from this thread many a Welsh fans identify with their local club rather than the regions.

Cutting their cloth due to Covid, but then there are teams who want to spend more than the cap. And some who do anyway *cough*.

geoff999rugby wrote:Exeter are filling out their squad with Irish fringe players ???

They have two Irish players and Ian Whitten has been there 10 years!

Also squad being trimmed to meet salary caps is not a sign of struggling.
There  is more debt, as in owed to owners, in the French game than the English one.

Rugby needs passion from its supporters to be sustainable
As is clear from this thread many a Welsh fans identify with their local club rather than the regions.

Fairly sure a couple of Leinster lads are off there at the end of the season because contracts have come to and end so they need cheap players to plug holes. I am fairly Leinster are sad to see leave but not big players,. How can Exeter expect to be competitive in Europe when that is who they a filling spots with. For all the problems of the Welsh they are still bringing in internationals and keeping the ones they have.

Premiership teams are struggling with finances as much as the Regions they just don't go on about it. You can't build a model where teams are right at the cap and fill the squad with youth and cheap imports only to move them on when they have to get their second contract because they have improved. Look at Tigers and Quinns, each has about 6 players who could double their wage at their next contract either in England or France. When they have to renew all their young players they will have to let some go. Ulster will keep who they want and move on who they don't. Imagine if you knew Ulster weren't going to be able keep 2 of Hume, Soak, Lowry and Balcone because of a stupid wage cap, how would sponsers feel. It is why so many English teams are constantly rebuilding.

As per the Ospreys CEO it's not good to burn your own house down and in his view that is what Wales does.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Cutting their cloth due to Covid, but then there are teams who want to spend more than the cap. And some who do anyway *cough*.

The issue is will it go back up. Why would teams with good accedemies or can spot a bargain want to increase the cap. As long as the stars stay because of England money why would they up it. There is no relegation and 8 teams get into the Champions Cup.

As we hear all the time the Premiership is all about the Premiership so as long as it's compeditive the owners and fans won't care.

I would be fairly sure most players will have it in their contract any cap rise results in a pay rise so why would owners up the cap. It's not like the Championship can take their players.

A team like Worcester who were at one stage spending nearly all their income on wages want to go back to it just so they can rack up more debt.

Fairly sure Worcester, Newcastle, Glaws and Wasps rather how it is now than add on 2m they don't have.

Those would not be the Ulster players who would leave.
As I mention there would be no Vermuelen or Carter

Plus deadwood like Kane, Dave O’Connor (who may have left already)
No renewed contract for Addison unless he stays fit next season
(Sadly less than 30 games in 4 years simply isn’t good enough)
No new contract for McGrath who is not fully getting back to fitness

All of those changes would take us under £5 million

Dunne and O’Loughlin are good signings for Exeter
Smart bit of business

The bigger point you can’t talk about the debt at rugby clubs with one hand and then bemoan a salary cap that keeps players wages down.
That is a contradictory position.

As I mention a URC salary cap will only seriously impact Leinster and to a far lesser extent Munster.

You mention Tigers and Quinns having players would could double their salary in England.
No they can’t because all English clubs are under the same salary cap.

As for France as I mentioned that is where the biggest debts in rugby are

geoff999rugby wrote:Dunne and O’Loughlin are good signings for Exeter
Smart bit of business

The bigger point you can’t talk about the debt at rugby clubs with one hand and then bemoan a salary cap that keeps players wages down.
That is a contradictory position.

As I mention a URC salary cap will only seriously impact Leinster and to a far lesser extent Munster.

You mention Tigers and Quinns having players would could double their salary in England.
No they can’t because all English clubs are under the same salary cap.

As for France as I mentioned that is where the biggest debts in rugby are

Is O'loughin good business if you are losing Hill and skinner

Quote from Baxter
“I would never have thought we would lose a frontline back five of the scrum player [Sam Skinner] on salary to a Scottish regional side. I would have thought that guys would have been better off playing for us in the Premiership but that is not the case now."
If you look up Wasps in relation to Scarlets it's a similar comment.

The point of it all is the Welsh are not as hard up as they think and the Premiership is not the golden goose people think it is. Like Ospreys CEO said they just need to stop trying to burn their own house down.

On French debt do we know they are in debt we often assume they are because they pay big, Toulon went from large losses to profit as they built up their off field side of the business. Racing have a concert venue and many of the T14 seem to be big businesses rather than just a club. Plus their TV money and attendances is extremely good. Top14 must be close the income of the URC and Prem combined if you exclude union add ons.

Brendan wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Dunne and O’Loughlin are good signings for Exeter
Smart bit of business

The bigger point you can’t talk about the debt at rugby clubs with one hand and then bemoan a salary cap that keeps players wages down.
That is a contradictory position.

As I mention a URC salary cap will only seriously impact Leinster and to a far lesser extent Munster.

You mention Tigers and Quinns having players would could double their salary in England.
No they can’t because all English clubs are under the same salary cap.

As for France as I mentioned that is where the biggest debts in rugby are

Is O'loughin good business if you are losing Hill and skinner

Quote from Baxter
“I would never have thought we would lose a frontline back five of the scrum player [Sam Skinner] on salary to a Scottish regional side. I would have thought that guys would have been better off playing for us in the Premiership but that is not the case now."
If you look up Wasps in relation to Scarlets it's a similar comment.

The point of it all is the Welsh are not as hard up as they think and the Premiership is not the golden goose people think it is.  Like Ospreys CEO said they just need to stop trying to burn their own house down.

On French debt do we know they are in debt we often assume they are because they pay big,  Toulon went from large losses to profit as they built up their off field side of the business.  Racing have a concert venue and many of the T14 seem to be big businesses rather than just a club.  Plus their TV money and attendances is extremely good.  Top14 must be close the income of the URC and Prem combined if you exclude union add ons.

Is that still the case? Toulon are really struggling at the minute and they themselves have been losing their stars in recent years, Radradra, Tuisova etc.

Brendan wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Cutting their cloth due to Covid, but then there are teams who want to spend more than the cap. And some who do anyway *cough*.

The issue is will it go back up.  Why would teams with good accedemies or can spot a bargain want to increase the cap.  As long as the stars stay because of England money why would they up it.  There is no relegation and 8 teams get into the Champions Cup.

As we hear all the time the Premiership is all about the Premiership so as long as it's compeditive the owners and fans won't care.

I would be fairly sure most players will have it in their contract any cap rise results in a pay rise so why would owners up the cap.  It's not like the Championship can take their players.

A team like Worcester who were at one stage spending nearly all their income on wages want to go back to it just so they can rack up more debt.

Fairly sure Worcester, Newcastle, Glaws and Wasps rather how it is now than add on 2m they don't have.

And some will want more as said. The teams at the top will want to increase to compete with the French for Europe. If it doesn't hey ho as you say its a self contained league so again not sure why it's seem as the English league struggling.

Something that I’ve noticed over the years that is in my opinion is a major disadvantage to Welsh regions is that they face a relentless amount of bad press compared with teams in other countries playing in the URC. The main source for online rugby news in Wales, WalesOnline, rarely goes more than a couple of weeks without an article running down the league, or the regions, or the standard compared with England etc. so much so that I’ve started to suspect that the owner or editor is a football fan determined to do his best to damage rugby and boost football on the site.

What fans wouldn’t be put off going to see a match when they read a constant stream of articles and comments saying how crap the competition/ team/ experience is? Compare this to how the South African press dealt with their poor start in the URC. you can read on rugby 365 or any South African news sites talking about how good the league is, how it’s full of international rugby players, how there are some excellent teams in it and over and over again you can read about why SA teams joined. In the Scottish and Irish papers you can read one or two articles a year discussing the problems of the league. But in Wales? It’s unusual to not come across articles talking about how crap it all is and that ignore the positives.

Seriously, dictatorships put huge amounts of time and money into funding propaganda because it works. This is a problem for rugby in Wales. And if your teams switch to a domestic 8 team league that is similarly put down by WalesOnline you’ll have problems with attendances for that league too.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:What is failure in your view?

Losing games and not making a profit I guess.

So all 4 welsh clubs would need to be replaced after 1 season?

Every team bar about 3 in the UK and Ireland loses games and fails to make a profit. I guess they should all be disbanded too?

This response is so dumb. The rate in which the Welsh teams are losing matches (at every level like I alluded to) and losing money or not making enough profit is a serious cause for concern - that was my point which everyone else seems to get. It has been on a downward spiral for years and wasn’t addressed by those who run the game - that again is a cause for concern.

I mean Cardiff and Scarlets both made a profit before covid hit. Something which most pro clubs in the UK and Ireland do not do. So you're just wrong.

This "Making a profit" is just a bizarre way of looking at success. I think perhaps you need to do a little background reading on why so many sporting entities are loss making, and why it has no bearing on their success.

I know there are mid-table teams in France and England that lose some games and might not make a profit, but their situation is a whole lot better than ours, so much so that they do not need to worry about their future.

Please tell me the teams in the UK and Ireland that "make a profit" Mikey.

What the hell, this is strange... how am I wrong? I thought the question/discussion was rhetorical? So I can't be wrong! Just for the record, as you're selectively replying in some pathetic attempt to win an arguement nobody started, my original comment is "Losing games and not making a profit I guess. If you look at Welsh teams and the Regions, they are losing badly from U18 level right up the seniors, Sevens included." - Welsh teams are losing, losing money and losing games at every level. These are facts, so what is your response to my mentoning of these facts?

Oh great, so two teams made a profit before covid. Can you show us this? What is their debt at now? How is their playing budget? How is their playing squad?
These are the questions you should be asking if Welsh teams have made a profit, questions you will not ask because your only purpose here is to be petty. Is this something you enjoy?  

I never said most teams in the UK and Ireland make a profit, you're replying to something I never said. I merely said their situaiton is a lot better than ours, which it is - can you disprove this, all of what I'm saying without selctively quoting?
No, making a profit is not a bizarre way to look at success, not when it's a business that relies on money to reinvest in themselves. Your comment "This "Making a profit" is just a bizarre way of looking at success" is pretty dumb, especially when we're talking about a sport where we must compete with French and Japanese clubs. I am aware sporting entities and any business for matter can and do operate at a loss, so I don't need to do any such backgroud reading, especially as it wasn't my point. Not my whole point anyway but having said that, if the Welsh teams go bust, then how important will trying not to operate at a loss and making a profit be then? Especially in a post-covid world. Another question that you'll completely ignore / cut off .

There are teams in UK and Ireland that make a profit, or at least did so when Cardiff and Scarlets did (before Covid) - which you'll find when you do some 'background reading'! Losing money and/or not making any is linked to the failings in Welsh rubgy IMO, as it always has been. I don't think you'll find many disagreeing with that. Not my whole point anyway, but you decieded to try and pick out one thing to pointlessly argue - the desperation to be right is quite miaow-esque.

Intotouch wrote:Something that I’ve noticed over the years that is in my opinion is a major disadvantage to Welsh regions is that they face a relentless amount of bad press compared with teams in other countries playing in the URC. The main source for online rugby news in Wales, WalesOnline, rarely goes more than a couple of weeks without an article running down the league, or the regions, or the standard compared with England etc. so much so that I’ve started to suspect that the owner or editor is a football fan determined to do his best to damage rugby and boost football on the site.

What fans wouldn’t be put off going to see a match when they read a constant stream of articles and comments saying how crap the competition/ team/ experience is? Compare this to how the South African press dealt with their poor start in the URC. you can read on rugby 365 or any South African news sites talking about how good the league is, how it’s full of international rugby players, how there are some excellent teams in it and over and over again you can read about why SA teams joined. In the Scottish and Irish  papers you can read one or two articles a year discussing the problems of the league. But in Wales? It’s unusual to not come across articles talking about how crap it all is and that ignore the positives.

Seriously, dictatorships put huge amounts of time and money into funding propaganda because it works. This is a problem for rugby in Wales. And if your teams switch to a domestic 8 team league that is similarly put down by WalesOnline you’ll have problems with attendances for that league too.

You're not wrong with a lot of this even though it is a shortsighted view. You could just ask us, rather than make a number of assumptions.

I will ask you this; Welsh teams get bad press, yes, due to the product (rugby on display) being poor.
The product is poor.
Is it more likely that the fans are unhappy because of the product, or the bad press reporting truthfully on the poor product? I have watched my home teams reguarly over the years and they just get worse which will no doubt lose them support.

I must admit I don't see the WOL slating the league, but they are unprofessional and quite delusional.

Leinster over the years have continued to improve. The rugby they play is good to watch, they regularly put cricket scores on the opposition and hardly lose a game. Their stadium always looks full. They have got their house in order, we haven't.
... and speaking of bad press, I think Ulster fans might be some of the worst when it comes to slating their team. Ulster have always been good but if they don't pummel the opposition then their supporters seem quite upset about it.

Intotouch wrote:Something that I’ve noticed over the years that is in my opinion is a major disadvantage to Welsh regions is that they face a relentless amount of bad press compared with teams in other countries playing in the URC. The main source for online rugby news in Wales, WalesOnline, rarely goes more than a couple of weeks without an article running down the league, or the regions, or the standard compared with England etc. so much so that I’ve started to suspect that the owner or editor is a football fan determined to do his best to damage rugby and boost football on the site.

What fans wouldn’t be put off going to see a match when they read a constant stream of articles and comments saying how crap the competition/ team/ experience is? Compare this to how the South African press dealt with their poor start in the URC. you can read on rugby 365 or any South African news sites talking about how good the league is, how it’s full of international rugby players, how there are some excellent teams in it and over and over again you can read about why SA teams joined. In the Scottish and Irish  papers you can read one or two articles a year discussing the problems of the league. But in Wales? It’s unusual to not come across articles talking about how crap it all is and that ignore the positives.

Seriously, dictatorships put huge amounts of time and money into funding propaganda because it works. This is a problem for rugby in Wales. And if your teams switch to a domestic 8 team league that is similarly put down by WalesOnline you’ll have problems with attendances for that league too.

Most Welsh people know that Wales Online are trash, thankfully. They’re the same as a lot of papers now, where they only chase clicks. This kind of thread could’ve been investigated by them years ago, but they’ll always be the paper that saluted Roger Lewis and still hardly criticise the WRU. Pure trash press.

Trash press still has an effect. Look up Welsh rugby and this site pops up front and centre. It usually praises the Welsh national side and attendances there are healthy, it usually runs down the URC league and attendances there are poor. Maybe there is no agenda to run down professional rugby and the articles are designed as click bait as you suggest. But an editor who was supportive of rugby, or sport in general would recognise that this continuous belittling of the league and pro rugby would be terrible for the sport and ease up on this.

As WO just being honest about the regions in their articles again if you compare this to the South African rugby press and their reaction to losing so many games at the start of the season you can see how it’s possible to praise a losing side and show appreciation for a league that has some good qualities.

The only thing "wrong" with the URC is that it isn't a full blown single round robin in my view.

If everyone just play everyone else once there is no hiding for any team, no double dips against weak teams, everyone gets equal shots.

Other than that I have found the rugby entertaining, albeit the start of the season left me frustrated at the referee interpretations of the breakdown. At times it still frustrates me, but I suppose it is more the inconsistencies of what they allow and then don't allow in the space of only a couple of minutes.

Anyone in my view not satisfied with the URC should look at their own agendas as I find it quite competitive and satisfying.

Intotouch wrote:Trash press still has an effect. Look up Welsh rugby and this site pops up front and centre. It usually praises the Welsh national side and attendances there are healthy, it usually runs down the URC league and attendances there are poor. Maybe there is no agenda to run down professional rugby and the articles are designed as click bait as you suggest. But an editor who was supportive of rugby, or sport in general would recognise that this continuous belittling of the league and pro rugby would be terrible for the sport and ease up on this.

As WO just being honest about the regions in their articles again if you compare this to the South African rugby press and their reaction to losing so many games at the start of the season you can see how it’s possible to praise a losing side and show appreciation for a league that has some good qualities.

No, they’re not being honest. If you hamstring your production line constantly and not pay the players’ release, there’s no honesty.

If your union don’t pay their dues and hamper their pro teams, with a loan. Is that good?

RiscaGame wrote:

Intotouch wrote:Trash press still has an effect. Look up Welsh rugby and this site pops up front and centre. It usually praises the Welsh national side and attendances there are healthy, it usually runs down the URC league and attendances there are poor. Maybe there is no agenda to run down professional rugby and the articles are designed as click bait as you suggest. But an editor who was supportive of rugby, or sport in general would recognise that this continuous belittling of the league and pro rugby would be terrible for the sport and ease up on this.

As WO just being honest about the regions in their articles again if you compare this to the South African rugby press and their reaction to losing so many games at the start of the season you can see how it’s possible to praise a losing side and show appreciation for a league that has some good qualities.

No, they’re not being honest. If you hamstring your production line constantly and not pay the players’ release, there’s no honesty.

If your union don’t pay their dues and hamper their pro teams, with a loan. Is that good?

How honest was the media story that the regions were hamstrung by an anticipated £26m of funds from WRU being reduced to £3m?  As the £26m was a target based on assumptions of crowds being able to attend test matches, how realistic was the target?   Last financial year, the 4 regions were allocated the £8.1m Competition Income from PRO14/EPCR, and a further £6.5m to Scarlets, Ospreys, Cardiff for outside test-window access to players.   WRU Gwent received £7.5m which included their slice of player access, as well as operational costs.  In addition, the WRU received £13.5m from Covid Spectator Sport Fund that was divided equally between it and the 4 regions - £2.7m each.

The £20m loan has now been converted to a long-term Government loan over 20 years, with WRU having paid any interest due up to point of loan re-structure.  One assumes that's £5m per region - £250k plus interest per annum for repayments per region.   That should be entirely manageable.    

If there's an argument to be made for additional funding into regional pro game, the regions should argue to have some/all of the investment income from the CVC PRO14 deal to be directed into pathway development including academies to benefit both parties.   The monies from CVC/6N deal is a harder argument to win, in my view. Although both investments mean that Competition Income will be reduced in coming years as CVC take their slice back from both.

Compare the numbers being promoted from club academies in England and Ireland to those in Wales and Scotland.  Even the Italians are probably getting better bang for their buck.

Interesting point on how the media can impact people's views. I do think some are easily directed by what they see and hear, why it bugs me so much when you hear prominent commentators dismiss head clashes (harking back to in my day..) or are just ignorant of laws etc. What it does do as you say is keep the conversation focused on the negative; even if you don't agree the conversation revolves around that central point. I suppose in a way that's why guys like Andrew Cotter, Flatman et al who take a more positive take as a first point have their fans (I'm one of them). The likes of Walesonline, Stephen Jones will always be around though as they try to polarise to an extent to create easy content and clicks.

Pot Hale wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:

Intotouch wrote:Trash press still has an effect. Look up Welsh rugby and this site pops up front and centre. It usually praises the Welsh national side and attendances there are healthy, it usually runs down the URC league and attendances there are poor. Maybe there is no agenda to run down professional rugby and the articles are designed as click bait as you suggest. But an editor who was supportive of rugby, or sport in general would recognise that this continuous belittling of the league and pro rugby would be terrible for the sport and ease up on this.

As WO just being honest about the regions in their articles again if you compare this to the South African rugby press and their reaction to losing so many games at the start of the season you can see how it’s possible to praise a losing side and show appreciation for a league that has some good qualities.

No, they’re not being honest. If you hamstring your production line constantly and not pay the players’ release, there’s no honesty.

If your union don’t pay their dues and hamper their pro teams, with a loan. Is that good?

How honest was the media story that the regions were hamstrung by an anticipated £26m of funds from WRU being reduced to £3m?  As the £26m was a target based on assumptions of crowds being able to attend test matches, how realistic was the target?   Last financial year, the 4 regions were allocated the £8.1m Competition Income from PRO14/EPCR, and a further £6.5m to Scarlets, Ospreys, Cardiff for outside test-window access to players.   WRU Gwent received £7.5m which included their slice of player access, as well as operational costs.  In addition, the WRU received £13.5m from Covid Spectator Sport Fund  that was divided equally between it and the 4 regions - £2.7m each.  

The £20m loan has now been converted to a long-term Government loan over 20 years, with WRU having paid any interest due up to point of loan re-structure.  One assumes that's £5m per region - £250k plus interest per annum for repayments per region.   That should be entirely manageable.    

If there's an argument to be made for additional funding into regional pro game, the regions should argue to have some/all of the investment income from the CVC PRO14 deal to be directed into pathway development including academies to benefit both parties.   The monies from CVC/6N deal is a harder argument to win, in my view. Although both investments mean that Competition Income will be reduced in coming years as CVC take their slice back from both.

Compare the numbers being promoted from club academies in England and Ireland to those in Wales and Scotland.  Even the Italians are probably getting better bang for their buck.

You've clearly done your research, Pot.  But something is nagging at me that these figures cannot be correct.  Not saying you or the regions are lying, but is there something being overlooked or misreported?  Or perhaps I've misunderstood your post!  Sounds like each region was allocated around £2m from the competition money and then £6.5m each for player access.  Plus £2.7m each from the COVID relief fund.  So £10m each (a bit less for the Dragons)?  That's more than they usually get!  Are you saying they had the £20m loan on top between the 4 of them?  Why would they need that at all if they got their usual monies from the WRU?  My understanding was that the WRU was not able to pass on the competition monies or the player release monies due to a hole in their own finances, therefore I wonder if the £20m loan was to cover the allocations above?  £3m (or whatever it was) was all the WRU could afford, therefore they needed to secure that loan to make up the shortfall.  So some creative accounting perhaps by the WRU?  They took the loan out on behalf of the regions, it landed in their accounts and then they distributed it, so I guess it is then shown as payments to the regions in the reports?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Interesting point on how the media can impact people's views. I do think some are easily directed by what they see and hear, why it bugs me so much when you hear prominent commentators dismiss head clashes (harking back to in my day..) or are just ignorant of laws etc. What it does do as you say is keep the conversation focused on the negative; even if you don't agree the conversation revolves around that central point. I suppose in a way that's why guys like Andrew Cotter, Flatman et al who take a more positive take as a first point have their fans (I'm one of them). The likes of Walesonline, Stephen Jones will always be around though as they try to polarise to an extent to create easy content and clicks.

It is interesting. My problem with media here is that they talk up certain teams and players without much subtance, IMO. I usally see a load of fans agreeing with all of it. That really pushes my buttons!

Member on here are saying the media has a negative effect, and in particular WOL.

Well can we please see this article:-

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/ospreys-v-scarlets-thriller-shows-23843594

Surprise surprise WOL are saying that the URC can work in Wales, they just need to understand, and try and implement what the Welsh fans want. For those who would rather not click on the link:-

Ospreys v Scarlets thriller shows what pro rugby in Wales could be but two big changes are needed for apathy to stop
The United Rugby Championship has struggled to capture the imagination in Wales due to a mix of poor kick-off times and unavailability of Test match stars but Saturday showed what is possible

Saturday’s match between the Ospreys and Scarlets was one of the Welsh rugby events of the year.

It had everything you could want. A rivalry, something to play for – both teams are battling it out for a Champions Cup spot next season – 13 tries and a bumper crowd.

Fans were at the ground hours before kick-off thanks to the pre-match festival activities which the Ospreys had arranged at the Swansea.com Stadium and then they were treated to an absolute belter of a match.

Leaving the ground on Saturday night there were two feelings which were impossible to shift: the first was a general appreciation for what was a fantastic event, the United Rugby Championship at its best, and the second was to ponder why we can’t get that every week.

Is it reasonable to expect a crowd which was officially announced as 10,141 every week? Probably not. Welsh rugby just isn’t at that point yet. But Saturday is clear evidence of what is achievable when the league gets things right.

First was the kick-off time. As we saw at Cardiff for their game against the Scarlets recently, a favourable kick-off time which does not limit travel options or result in fans getting home beyond 11pm makes a huge difference. The 5.15pm Saturday afternoon kick-off slot, although not perfect, worked.

Second, and arguably most importantly, was the availability of Test match players. Barring injury, both teams had their Wales internationals available and on display. These are the kinds of players who fans want to see but their presence is all too infrequent.

When you get these two vital ingredients, you start to get a flavour of what the United Rugby Championship – a league which has struggled to capture the imagination in Wales – can be. Suddenly, with superstars on show, something on the line, more than 10,000 fans in the stadium, there was a sense of occasion which is lacking on a weekly basis.

When asked if the derby was a marker of what is possible in terms of a spectacle, Ospreys boss Toby Booth said: “Absolutely, the whole structure of playing week on week, in blocks. The more consistency we can have in availability and also for a number of games in succession - those things are really important. Hopefully on the back of Covid, a lot of that stuff will start to take care of itself.

“With the World Cup coming around the following year, there is probably going to be the squeezing of certain games. But if we can make those things marry up, we’ll get a better league, a better game and some better rugby.”

It is so blindingly obvious that these two issues have a huge impact on the success of the league in Wales that everybody in positions of power will know it too. Unfortunately, the kick-off times are dictated by broadcast partners who apparently show scant disregard for how their decisions impact how many fans trundle through the turnstiles. There is a general acceptance that this needs to be addressed but ultimately the broadcasters, who plough their money into the league, will seemingly get what they want, so until their attitude towards kick-off times changes then nothing will.

The availability of Test players is a more complex issue and this comes with the territory of expanding the league to 16 teams and crossing hemispheres. With South African stars involved in the Rugby Championship through September and the Six Nations clattering into things in February and March, clashes with Test fixtures are almost impossible to avoid, especially when you factor in a rest period for those involved at international level. These issues are not straightforward but it is worth the effort because getting things right makes a difference.

When asked about the match attendance, Booth added: “The atmosphere in the changing room changes, right, when you get past a certain point. It was the same when I was at Bath, which was sold out every week. I coached at the Madejski with London Irish for a long time and once you get past the 10,000 mark, the whole atmosphere changes.

“I was pleased because of the nature of the game. The Scarlets played their part, they scored a lot of good tries. There were two teams that went for it. We had enough, they didn’t this time but it could easily have been the other way.

“That’s what we want. We’re in the entertainment business. Those things are important and to have 10,000 plus watching it could only be good for us moving forward.”

However, after the Ospreys’ home game against the Dragons this Sunday, May 8, they then have to sell an 8.10pm kick-off on a Friday night to their fans for May 20. Good luck with that. Making matters worse for them, it’s their last game of the season, against South African team Bulls, which could have a huge bearing on whether they make the Champions Cup next season or not.

They are not alone. The Scarlets have had a handful of 7.35pm kick-offs on Saturday nights this season. It’s an impossible sell.

At present, the league is not giving itself the best opportunity to be successful in Wales but Ospreys v Scarlets showed what was possible when they get things right. It is incumbent on those running the URC to make the changes necessary for it to flourish in Wales and beyond in the coming seasons. Otherwise the apathy will continue.

Just out of curiosity, perhaps our Irish and Scottish members on here can help with this, but how many late night kick offs do you have to endure to watch your teams ? Especially on a Saturday night ?

It's a bit of a cycle that article, nicely sums it up in a couple of aspects though. Seemingly Ospreys vs Scarlets got everything aligned and it shows what can be done.

Those points being it was all Welsh.
They had international stars.
Pre match entertainment.
Good kick off time.
A sense of occasion.

Not that easy to replicate over a season then.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's a bit of a cycle that article, nicely sums it up in a couple of aspects though. Seemingly Ospreys vs Scarlets got everything aligned and it shows what can be done.

Those points being it was all Welsh.
They had international stars.
Pre match entertainment.
Good kick off time.
A sense of occasion.

Not that easy to replicate over a season then.

What do you think, in your opinion, that they need to replicate it over a season ?

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's a bit of a cycle that article, nicely sums it up in a couple of aspects though. Seemingly Ospreys vs Scarlets got everything aligned and it shows what can be done.

Those points being it was all Welsh.
They had international stars.
Pre match entertainment.
Good kick off time.
A sense of occasion.

Not that easy to replicate over a season then.

What do you think, in your opinion, that they need to replicate it over a season ?

It's massively difficult to do so; if not impossible to replicate that list. You can pick off a few at the same time, but then lose the others. The most difficult one to replicate over a season is the sense of occasion. That by it's nature only comes fleetingly, so you can pretty much whistle for that. An all Welsh league ticks off 3 obviously if you don't want a tv deal, but also most likely loses the internationals.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's a bit of a cycle that article, nicely sums it up in a couple of aspects though. Seemingly Ospreys vs Scarlets got everything aligned and it shows what can be done.

Those points being it was all Welsh.
They had international stars.
Pre match entertainment.
Good kick off time.
A sense of occasion.

Not that easy to replicate over a season then.

What do you think, in your opinion, that they need to replicate it over a season ?

It's massively difficult to do so; if not impossible to replicate that list. You can pick off a few at the same time, but then lose the others. The most difficult one to replicate over a season is the sense of occasion. That by it's nature only comes fleetingly, so you can pretty much whistle for that. An all Welsh league ticks off 3 obviously if you don't want a tv deal, but also most likely loses the internationals.

There is nothing about a TV deal in your list.

You could still get a TV deal, albeit not as good as the one now, but that might come in time, you never know. So an all Welsh league could give you the points raised. Just saying.

The point of the tv deal links in part with the ability to have internationals in the squad and an impact on kick off times. The article mentions the impact of the second point but doesn't make that a core part of why the game was a success.

No, there would be no way to get as much money from an all Welsh league. Either now, in 10 years or in 100 years (ignoring interest rates!). I think that point is also core in how alternative leagues or comps are viewed too. A bit of honesty is always welcome, you can tick off a lot from a Welsh league but it's not going to attract the money of a comp like the URC, the prem or the French league. It's a bit like Brexit with all the upsides and none of the down.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The point of the tv deal links in part with the ability to have internationals in the squad and an impact on kick off times. The article mentions the impact of the second point but doesn't make that a core part of why the game was a success.

No, there would be no way to get as much money from an all Welsh league. Either now, in 10 years or in 100 years (ignoring interest rates!). I think that point is also core in how alternative leagues or comps are viewed too. A bit of honesty is always welcome, you can tick off a lot from a Welsh league but it's not going to attract the money of a comp like the URC, the prem or the French league. It's a bit like Brexit with all the upsides and none of the down.

I think BBC Wales would pay just as much for an all Welsh league as they do for the URC.

It's just whether or not it would gain enough momentum for say SKY to chuck their hats in. They have Netball on SKY at the minute, and that is no bigger than what perhaps an all Welsh league could offer in a few years time, with more sponsors and momentum.

Would they need to pay as much? I don't think people would be knocking down the door to televise Llandovery vs Bridgend myself. The point around tv as well, as mentioned in the piece, means that they will dictate kick offs to an extent.

If you're brutally honest you know you wouldn't get the interest in that league from external countries. And if it's a success all the Welsh fans will be packing out the stadia.

I'd throw in 1 last thing on tv and where interest will be: the women's game. I can see that where competition for rights will be over the next 10 years.

If BBC Wales did want to pay you have to remember that there is also Premier sport money too which would probably stop as they’re unlikely to show the Welsh Prem. Also, the BBC money would need to be split 10 ways instead of 4. So not much to go round.

Serious question for you LD (not trying to wind you up): you’ve got an all-Welsh league now in the Welsh Prem. What is wrong with following that? And loads of it has been televised. Is it just that it’s not ‘top tier’? It’s all of the big names of old - your Cardiffs, Newports, Ebbw Vales, Pontypridds, Swanseas, etc. Is that not what you’re asking for? Or is it just that there are no international players with them? With your proposal I think the only difference would be that those same clubs would have, say, 10 extra squad players from each of the current regions. That would certainly strengthen them a little. But most of the big name players would go elsewhere as the clubs would not be able for afford the wages (they struggle now with just 4 teams). So you’d still just have a 10 team semi-pro league but with no pro tier above it. Would that get the fans out in droves as it doesn’t seem to currently (the Welsh prem)?

The Oracle wrote:Serious question for you LD (not trying to wind you up): you’ve got an all-Welsh league now in the Welsh Prem. What is wrong with following that?

Nothing wrong with it, I follow it all the time. But I do not just support my home town club, I am a Welsh rugby fan. You may not believe me when I tell you this, but I used to watch the regions every weekend. I was a Warriors season ticket holder from the outset, and when they were disbanded, and I got over it, I used to cherry pick my regional games and make a day out of it with my brother and my father, sometimes we would take the kids as well and the wives, they would go shopping, or go for food, and we would watch the game. My girls have grown up now, and I just go and watch Merthyr for the most part, I try and catch the regions on the tele, but they just break my heart, that and I am not really interested in the URC, the way the fixtures are ect.....

Wh can't they just have a straight league with home and away fixtures ? With afternoon and early evening kick off times, with the odd Friday night game ?

It's a shame, Welsh rugby is dying a slow death across all areas. My original post was just an idea of breathing fresh life into the game. I am not saying it is what needs to happen, or what will happen. Watching the Ospreys and Scarlets duke it out on the weekend kind of reminded me why I fell in love with the sport, we seriously need to try and rekindle that, how, I do not know. But some of the suggestions put forward in the WOL would probably go a long way to solving it.

Perhaps I am a romantic, harking back to the days when we used to have a full Arms Park for the Shweppes cup final, and I would go down to Sardis Rd, the Gnoll, Stradey and watch the games with awesome atmospheres. I remember watching Pontypridd play Swansea at ST Helens once, and Nigel Bezzani walloped Garin Jenkins on the sly, there were about a dozen 80 year olds being held back by the stewards as they tried to get onto the pitch. The place was packed out. The atmosphere was electric.

Remember this day ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/rugby-union/52709760

The Oracle wrote:Is it just that it’s not ‘top tier’? It’s all of the big names of old - your Cardiffs, Newports, Ebbw Vales, Pontypridds, Swanseas, etc. Is that not what you’re asking for? Or is it just that there are no international players with them? With your proposal I think the only difference would be that those same clubs would have, say, 10 extra squad players from each of the current regions. That would certainly strengthen them a little. But most of the big name players would go elsewhere as the clubs would not be able for afford the wages (they struggle now with just 4 teams). So you’d still just have a 10 team semi-pro league but with no pro tier above it. Would that get the fans out in droves as it doesn’t seem to currently (the Welsh prem)?

I do not want us to do away with the regions, I still think they could serve a purpose, I just do not think that the URC suits Welsh rugby, in any form or guise. I want the fully pro teams to be more connected to the communities, not to the detriment of them and vice versa.

I ask this with an open heart, but what good is watching the regions going to Ireland and getting 30points put on them ? Then watching them in front half full grounds at home trying to grind out a win ?

We need to change, we need big changes, otherwise results like what we had at home for team Wales against Italy will become the norm.

New life needs to be breathed into the game in Wales, it needs to be drastic, to get people to stand up and ask, oh, whats going on here then ? Well lets see what becomes of this.

At the moment, people are just bored of watching the same old, same old.

Anyway, that's where I am, I know a lot of people will not agree, but that is where I am with Welsh rugby at the minute.

Makes sense. Nostalgia is a powerful thing.

The Oracle wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

How honest was the media story that the regions were hamstrung by an anticipated £26m of funds from WRU being reduced to £3m?  As the £26m was a target based on assumptions of crowds being able to attend test matches, how realistic was the target?   Last financial year, the 4 regions were allocated the £8.1m Competition Income from PRO14/EPCR, and a further £6.5m to Scarlets, Ospreys, Cardiff for outside test-window access to players.   WRU Gwent received £7.5m which included their slice of player access, as well as operational costs.  In addition, the WRU received £13.5m from Covid Spectator Sport Fund  that was divided equally between it and the 4 regions - £2.7m each.  

The £20m loan has now been converted to a long-term Government loan over 20 years, with WRU having paid any interest due up to point of loan re-structure.  One assumes that's £5m per region - £250k plus interest per annum for repayments per region.   That should be entirely manageable.    

If there's an argument to be made for additional funding into regional pro game, the regions should argue to have some/all of the investment income from the CVC PRO14 deal to be directed into pathway development including academies to benefit both parties.   The monies from CVC/6N deal is a harder argument to win, in my view. Although both investments mean that Competition Income will be reduced in coming years as CVC take their slice back from both.

Compare the numbers being promoted from club academies in England and Ireland to those in Wales and Scotland.  Even the Italians are probably getting better bang for their buck.

You've clearly done your research, Pot.  But something is nagging at me that these figures cannot be correct.  Not saying you or the regions are lying, but is there something being overlooked or misreported?  Or perhaps I've misunderstood your post!  Sounds like each region was allocated around £2m from the competition money and then £6.5m each for player access.  Plus £2.7m each from the COVID relief fund.  So £10m each (a bit less for the Dragons)?  That's more than they usually get!  Are you saying they had the £20m loan on top between the 4 of them?  Why would they need that at all if they got their usual monies from the WRU?  My understanding was that the WRU was not able to pass on the competition monies or the player release monies due to a hole in their own finances, therefore I wonder if the £20m loan was to cover the allocations above?  £3m (or whatever it was) was all the WRU could afford, therefore they needed to secure that loan to make up the shortfall.  So some creative accounting perhaps by the WRU?  They took the loan out on behalf of the regions, it landed in their accounts and then they distributed it, so I guess it is then shown as payments to the regions in the reports?

Hi Oracle. I meant that the WRU accounts say that £6m in Comp Income and £6.5m in WRU payments went to the 3 private regions. £12.5m total between the 3 of them.
The £26m that they expected to get - according to an interview with Cardiff CEO - was the WRU distribution money only. In other words, not including the Comp Income. He says that ended up being £3m only. Perhaps WRU was able to improve that by another £3m before the year end accounts period was completed. Thus the 3 private teams got £6.5m in access payments plus the £20m loan making £26m in total. Although, the £20m loan was for all 4 regions. And yes the Covid monies were separate from that - £5.7m split by WRU & Gwent Dragons and £8.1m to the 3 private teams.

I would have two regions. East Wales and West Wales. Then the money saved on two less regions could be put into building a strong Welsh Premiership. This is what should have happened in 2003 in my opinion. I think the damage has been done now though. The interest level that I know of for the domestic game in Wales is the lowest I have ever known it.

Jimmy Moz wrote:I would have two regions. East Wales and West Wales. Then the money saved on two less regions could be put into building a strong Welsh Premiership. This is what should have happened in 2003 in my opinion. I think the damage has been done now though. The interest level that I know of for the domestic game in Wales is the lowest I have ever known it.

Would there be much money saved though? TV money income would just half. Competition money income would just half. If they stuck with the 80% salary thing for the top 38 players then that payment would stay the same. And I would presume that they would need to build 2 new stadia? One in Aberystwyth and one in Newtown or Hay on Wye?! Or do you mean East and West of South Wales? Which would of course 'disenfranchise' most of Wales, again.

Nah just play at the Arms Park and the Liberty. With the possiblity of taking games on the road

Yes East and West of South Wales. That's exactly what I mean

The Oracle wrote:

Jimmy Moz wrote:I would have two regions. East Wales and West Wales. Then the money saved on two less regions could be put into building a strong Welsh Premiership. This is what should have happened in 2003 in my opinion. I think the damage has been done now though. The interest level that I know of for the domestic game in Wales is the lowest I have ever known it.

Would there be much money saved though?  TV money income would just half.  Competition money income would just half.  If they stuck with the 80% salary thing for the top 38 players then that payment would stay the same.  And I would presume that they would need to build 2 new stadia?  One in Aberystwyth and one in Newtown or Hay on Wye?!   Or do you mean East and West of South Wales?  Which would of course 'disenfranchise' most of Wales, again.

Love how pretty much all of this just got ignored. Are Jimmy and RugbyFan one and the same...

mikey_dragon wrote:Love how pretty much all of this just got ignored. Are Jimmy and RugbyFan one and the same...

You are happy enough to ignore the Dragons shambolic results. But that's diffirent I guess because they are your team and you want what is best for them and not Welsh rugby.

I have no idea who RugbyFan is sorry so no we are not the same.

Are you sure? The chidlish and inaccurate comments are all too similar, which you've just proven once again.

Do you want to try and answer the questions? You have been bringing up the same subject/pipedream for a few years, so why not have a reasoned debate when someone questions you on it? If you need help then don't be shy, ask .

I don't think they are the same.

For a start one wants to sacrifice the community game so that his team can have more, the other is concerned for Welsh rugby as a whole.

Two quite contrasting views there.

Ah, LD. Two peas in a pod .

The Oracle wrote:

Jimmy Moz wrote:I would have two regions. East Wales and West Wales. Then the money saved on two less regions could be put into building a strong Welsh Premiership. This is what should have happened in 2003 in my opinion. I think the damage has been done now though. The interest level that I know of for the domestic game in Wales is the lowest I have ever known it.

Would there be much money saved though?  TV money income would just half.  Competition money income would just half.  If they stuck with the 80% salary thing for the top 38 players then that payment would stay the same.  And I would presume that they would need to build 2 new stadia?  One in Aberystwyth and one in Newtown or Hay on Wye?!   Or do you mean East and West of South Wales?  Which would of course 'disenfranchise' most of Wales, again.

Well, first of all there is some sort of by law that anyone playing at the Arms Park has to have ‘Cardiff’ in the title. But ignoring that, how do Cardiff and Swansea represent East and West Wales? They are slightly more East and West of the very tip of South Wales. What you’re proposing is another regional approach, splitting the country into left and right halves but basing everything away from East and West and as far away as possible from the North. I guess the question is: why would this ‘regional’ compass-based approach work better than the current regional one which only got off the ground because business men agreed to fund it (initially). Do you know if anyone willing to start this sort of thing from scratch?

How do you create these businesses? Do you somehow close down and liquidise the Ospreys, Scarlets, Blues and Dragons? Who pays off their debts and what do you do with their assets? Do the WRU have the power to do that to a business? Or the money to buy them outright so they could then shut them down?

What about fans? Is someone from Wrexham meant to support East Wales then? Cos they’re east of the centre line in Wales. Is that how it works? Will you really get the South East (Cardiff, Newport, Bridgend and valleys) supporting this more than the current teams get alone?

It’s ‘neat’ in that it reduces teams and equally splits the country, but not just it’s actually workable in reality.

The Oracle wrote:Well, first of all there is some sort of by law that anyone playing at the Arms Park has to have ‘Cardiff’ in the title. But ignoring that, how do Cardiff and Swansea represent East and West Wales? They are slightly more East and West of the very tip of South Wales. What you’re proposing is another regional approach, splitting the country into left and right halves but basing everything away from East and West and as far away as possible from the North. I guess the question is: why would this ‘regional’ compass-based approach work better than the current regional one which only got off the ground because business men agreed to fund it (initially). Do you know if anyone willing to start this sort of thing from scratch?

Swansea and Cardiff make sense, they are the two biggest cities in Wales, and one is on the more easterly side of Wales and the other is on the more westerly side, both have the best infrastructures to deal with things.

That is probably why he is suggesting those two cities.

The Oracle wrote:How do you create these businesses? Do you somehow close down and liquidise the Ospreys, Scarlets, Blues and Dragons? Who pays off their debts and what do you do with their assets? Do the WRU have the power to do that to a business? Or the money to buy them outright so they could then shut them down?

The obvious thing to do, in this scenario, is for the regions to disband, and the WRU foot the bill for an east and west region.

The Oracle wrote:What about fans? Is someone from Wrexham meant to support East Wales then? Cos they’re east of the centre line in Wales. Is that how it works? Will you really get the South East (Cardiff, Newport, Bridgend and valleys) supporting this more than the current teams get alone?

South east would obviously be Cardiff and Newport, and South west would obviously be Swansea and Llanelli. See how they go, then if they do better than what we currently have, which in all honesty is not going to be hard, then start looking at a north region.

The Oracle wrote:It’s ‘neat’ in that it reduces teams and equally splits the country, but not just it’s actually workable in reality.

Why not ?